Lessons on democracy to be taught shortly

[heyexile]

This is all good stuff, especially when the country is currently operating under Obrigkeitsstaat.

The irony is classical Thai.

Ah so, the NLA morphs into the Reichstag (ie as in the 1933-45 one)? Some say its only function was to rubber-stamp the edicts of a dictatorship. Surely not possible in a Thailand on the "road to democracy".

This can be clarified by Political Officers, attached to the schools, during the democracy lessons.

[Robespiere]

Quote

accurately understand democracy

Unquote

This is troubling coming from a man who ceased power.

You are probably new to Thailand. It was necessary to seize power in order to start Thailand on the road of democracy. It had been a Government of one family for 11 of the last 14 years. Even the three years it was out it carried enough power to affectively block the in government from making many changes. It also created an army of terrorists and launched them on to Thailand. They also set up a school to teach democracy and when you passed it you could join the terrorists practicing it's brand of Democracy.

Maybe before you post you should look up the facts. Not only what Thailand has had in the past but what the man is trying to do for Thailand.

If you were one of those who have lost a lot of money as a result of the cutting back on corruption and their are many who are. Also they are vocal about the fact that there is a non elected government in power supported by the majority of the people fighting corruption rather than encouraging it. I offer you my condolences.

I am not making a personal accusation it is just a general one. I have no idea if you fall into that category or not.

There seems to be a common theme on this forum that basically states that Thailand was not a democracy, or that the previous government only adhered to one element of democracy, elections, and did not adhere to any others.

That is a very simplistic premise, and basically wrong. Democracy, or any other form of governance, is never an on-off situation. For example, you cannot simply state that "rule of law" was not adhered to by the previous government. There may have been cases that it was not, but many magnitudes more cases where it was adhered to. Any political system is a sliding scale.

The following website http://democracyranking.org/?page_id=738 gives a democracy ranking for 115 countries. Thailand ranked 65 in 2013, roughly in the middle of the pack. The interesting thing is that the ranking increased from 2008-2009 to 2001-2012, the period that Yingluck was in power. The 50 countries rated below Thailand have not found it neccessary to seize power to get onto the road to democracy.

Country

Score 2008-2009

Rank 2008-2009

Score 2011-2012

Rank 2011-2012

Rank Change 2008-2012

102 Thailand 51.2 74 54.2 65 +9

I will be interested to see where the ranking will be for 2014, after power was seized "in order to start Thailand on the road of democracy".

When the coup happened I was just as shocked and outraged as most of you, in retrospect I have softened my position .

in the months previously to the coup Thailand was in a very dangerous situation IMO. We seem all seem to want to argue a particular aspect of the situation,but the whole situation on the aggravate was unsustainable. I dont want to mention any specific problems, because people will miss my point and want to argue that particular problem.

Cant we all agree that the political situation previous to the coup was unsustainable? Did the Judiciary do a good job in defusing the situation? was Yingluck successful in defusing the situation and governing?was the opposition proposing any viable solutions?do we all have such short memories?

Now we have people arguing against education? Is it possible that some people will take a contrary position regardless what the issue is? We all need some education in democracy, Where was it mentioned that the education will be targeted towards the " buffalo" of the north east as some have mentioned? When I went to school in the US I remember taking courses in civics, why would it not be beneficial if such courses were available to Thais.

That Thailand ranked in the middle of the pack below Albania is not an enviable position with which one should be content and I am sure the ranking did not take in to account the events leading to the coup.

I also wonder what the ranking would had being if the country was allowed to descent in ti civil war.

That was the very reason for the existence of the PDRC, just like Pitak Siam and the PAD that preceded it.

Tear the country apart, create enough chaos, disorder, murder and mayhem that the general population will more willingly accept the intervention of the military in a coup just to end the daily misery. Thus the self inflicted grenade attacks.

It speaks volumes that the people of Bangkok endured the street rabble for over 6 months rather than meekly hand over their hard won political advances.

Eventually economics forced their hand, with too many businesses shut down, tourists numbers dwindling and bills piling up, many were happy for the respite the coup bought to their lives - not happy to give up democracy, but happy to have some sort of normalcy returned to the streets so that they could go about earning a living.

People are not arguing against education, they are wisely arguing against indoctrination.

None of us have seen the syllabus yet, but it is pretty much guaranteed to be a joke as it somehow has to skew democracy to be a system that supports minority rule (functional democracy a-la Hong Kong anyone?).

Will this brainwashing campaign target the red buffalo - of course it will as they are the ones who don't know how to vote for the "good people".

In summary it is not an education campaign, it is a RE-EDUCATION campaign - the difference is huge.

BTW - civil war was never on the cards for two reasons:

1. the PDRC support base was very narrow, basically concentrated from Sutheps home districts in the south and a few plutocrats from BKK.

2. Thaksin knows how to play the long game. Ultimately Thailand will be a functioning, modern, western style democracy. Human progress can be retarded but not denied, particularly in this day and age of social media and iPhones. When the dam wall breaks, Thaksin has positioned himself very nicely to return as the nations hero and saviour.

Finally, why are you hating on Albania?

[sirineou]

Finally, why are you hating on Albania?

Why would you say that I am hating on Albania?

[HiSoLowSoNoSo]

They should take their "Democracy Lesson road show" to Hong kong next, seems to be many there also who can't agree to why self appointed dictators leaders is part of democracy.

[englishoak]

Oh come on guys. You only seem interesting in trying to pull down the NCPO with suggestions, insinuations, half truths and lies. You guys don't seem interested in helping Thailand to move forward.

BTW a referendum is no reform, but might be part of a process / procedure. Ask again next year.

PS just checked, but all Thai confirmed my pants are up.

The day you accept that the way forward for Thai democracy does not involve military coups will be the day you finally have something worthwhile to champion.

You forgot the IMO, IMHO.

BTW I vaguely remember Gen. Prayut saying something like "this should be the last coup". I have doubts. If Thai are as tunnel visioned as a few posters here and it will be politics as usual end of next year, we will all have learned that Thailand will have lost all the years in this century.

Championing reforms and getting Thai to really cooperate, put forward ideas, etc., etc. seems very worthwhile indeed. At least some of us think so. Other want to go back to chaos instead, it would seem.

Every time, some swallow the mantra aye.

Rubi until someone comes in and immediately sweeps, yes sweeps the basics away like education, police and law system to actually work in a professional and fair manner in keeping with where it wishes to go... hopefully forwards and modernise... they arnt serious when they say reform.. they actually just mean reshuffle.

I would suggest the X amount of years before the next intervention is spent well and actually having those ideas ready to implement, talking about it after the fact means just a load of headless chickens talking and who gets listened to, depending on whos in favour. Just in time for the next lot to come in and talk about their ideas...... and so it goes

In reality there is little real change and all the time Thailand whilst it goes round in circles is going from a regional leader to a regional embarrassment and possibly the way things have been going a regional disaster.

c'est la vie

[khunjamesjohnson]

Before the installation of the new Prime Minister, you had major civil disobedience which was tearing Thailand apart. Sometimes,Democracy has to be suspended to protect it's citizens, and focus on the real issues of the country.......I think this is the case.

The civil disobedience was a manufactured crisis to oust the elected PM.

Democracy was suspended to pacify the generals boss.

Don't you people read the banned books?

[englishoak]

Ive got an even shorter lesson on democracy.... Thailand's version.

[halloween]

As it seems I'll be waiting a long time for the democratic Yingluk's highlights, I'll reply to this piece of garbage. can you not conceive of any actions of an elected government that would warrant its removal?

Even in democratic countries with well developed (and funded) oversight bodies, governments PMs and Presidents have been forced from office. In Thailand where these bodies are weak (and starved thanks to Yingluk), massive corruption should be allowed, criminal pandering to an unelected autocrat is fine, and B700+ billion lost in an idiotic scam should be allowed to continue - because that's how YOU think democracy should work.

So when does the reign of terror start?

Hosting a cooking show warrants the removal of an elected Prime Minister??

The independent oversight bodies in Thailand aren't weak, they are extremely powerful. The problem is that they are not independent but operate under the control of an unelected few via an incestuous appointment process birthed in the butchering of the 1997 constitution by a previous unelected coup regime. These "weak" oversight bodies have silenced the voices of the people of the nation on numerous occasions throwing out elected government after elected government.

Policies that subsidies a nations agricultural industries aren't corruption or idiotic scams but are mechanisms used by normal competent governments of all persuasions the world over to sustain and protect their nations food sources and to pump capital into rural regions to generate economic activity and growth.

Losers accepting their defeat and allowing the winners to govern until the next election is not how i think democracy should work - it IS how democracy works.

The reign of terror, the assault on freedom and the curbing of individuals civil rights began the day democracy ended.

"

"Hosting a cooking show warrants the removal of an elected Prime Minister??"

Why do you persist with this lie? Samak was removed for accepting payment and lying about it, but could have been re-appointed by his party. Thaksin decided on his B-I-L instead.

I'll leave you to your red delusions of how the opposition and the voters should ignore a government's failings. Come back when you wake up to the reality that accountability exists.

BTW still working on those democratic high points? How about the amnesty for the crimes of the government proposing it and still in progress? a few G2G rice deals maybe?

[tigermoth]

What a laugh, at least it would be if it were not so serious. 'Teach democracy'. How are these kids bought up? Not taught by parents, not allowed to read books, not taught right and wrong, not taught how respect is gained and given. All things that is ingrained in children since birth and is natural without it being taught at a later age of life. No so called democratic country has lessons in democracy, particularly when the country teaching it has no right of assembly, no free speech, no elections, no innocent before guilty doctrine and no civil court.

[chotthee]

Ive got an even shorter lesson on democracy.... Thailand's version.

Choice the right candidate; else coup.

[heyexile]

Maybe they could try teaching the basics first:.

History, Geography, Maths, Eng (and Thai) Lit.

Then Economics, Civics.

Then in college/uni Politics, Philosophy.

At what age/grade will this indoctrination, sorry Democracy Lessons, start? Poor kids.

[rubl]

You forgot the IMO, IMHO.

BTW I vaguely remember Gen. Prayut saying something like "this should be the last coup". I have doubts. If Thai are as tunnel visioned as a few posters here and it will be politics as usual end of next year, we will all have learned that Thailand will have lost all the years in this century.

Championing reforms and getting Thai to really cooperate, put forward ideas, etc., etc. seems very worthwhile indeed. At least some of us think so. Other want to go back to chaos instead, it would seem.

Every time, some swallow the mantra aye.

Rubi until someone comes in and immediately sweeps, yes sweeps the basics away like education, police and law system to actually work in a professional and fair manner in keeping with where it wishes to go... hopefully forwards and modernise... they arnt serious when they say reform.. they actually just mean reshuffle.

I would suggest the X amount of years before the next intervention is spent well and actually having those ideas ready to implement, talking about it after the fact means just a load of headless chickens talking and who gets listened to, depending on whos in favour. Just in time for the next lot to come in and talk about their ideas...... and so it goes

In reality there is little real change and all the time Thailand whilst it goes round in circles is going from a regional leader to a regional embarrassment and possibly the way things have been going a regional disaster.

c'est la vie

If the junta would have really swept the floor the international community would be really alarmed and more importantly so would all Thai.

A 'clear sweep' would only lead to more resentment, fester hatred and lead to the opposite of what one hopes will be the result: a clear step to real democracy.

[rubl]

That was the very reason for the existence of the PDRC, just like Pitak Siam and the PAD that preceded it.

Tear the country apart, create enough chaos, disorder, murder and mayhem that the general population will more willingly accept the intervention of the military in a coup just to end the daily misery. Thus the self inflicted grenade attacks.

It speaks volumes that the people of Bangkok endured the street rabble for over 6 months rather than meekly hand over their hard won political advances.

Eventually economics forced their hand, with too many businesses shut down, tourists numbers dwindling and bills piling up, many were happy for the respite the coup bought to their lives - not happy to give up democracy, but happy to have some sort of normalcy returned to the streets so that they could go about earning a living.

People are not arguing against education, they are wisely arguing against indoctrination.

None of us have seen the syllabus yet, but it is pretty much guaranteed to be a joke as it somehow has to skew democracy to be a system that supports minority rule (functional democracy a-la Hong Kong anyone?).

Will this brainwashing campaign target the red buffalo - of course it will as they are the ones who don't know how to vote for the "good people".

In summary it is not an education campaign, it is a RE-EDUCATION campaign - the difference is huge.

BTW - civil war was never on the cards for two reasons:

1. the PDRC support base was very narrow, basically concentrated from Sutheps home districts in the south and a few plutocrats from BKK.

2. Thaksin knows how to play the long game. Ultimately Thailand will be a functioning, modern, western style democracy. Human progress can be retarded but not denied, particularly in this day and age of social media and iPhones. When the dam wall breaks, Thaksin has positioned himself very nicely to return as the nations hero and saviour.

Finally, why are you hating on Albania?

Indeed, those dastardly PDRC. They even provoked the UDD into talking about sedation and a "Democratic Peoples Republic of Lanna"

Now that should please Robespierre

[The Deerhunter]

"An election is not the only solution for democracy"

So it is possible to have democracy without elections?

"which needs to have the standardised rule of law and Rechtsstaat, the exercise of rights and liberties within a frame of respect to others, and the people's discipline and peaceful co-existence,"

"Standardised rule of law" would presumably imply an absence of arbitrary detention. And if we are talking about "rights and liberties", I'm assuming that free speech would be a core part of this, given that we are talking about "democracy".

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Yes it can be. Sort of. An autocratic government while not being democratically elected can run a country based on democratic principals with regard to fairness of the rule of law, suppressing corruption and not practicing discrimination against race, sex, age & religion etc.. A few months ago I found a dictionary definition where elections was the 4th or 5th component mentioned. Can't find it now. Despite what PTP say there is a whole lot more to running a country on for the democratic rights of the people to be observed than just running elections. Also Thailand has well proven that you can have a country run in a most undemocratic manner by a party that was ostensibly elected democratically. Do you call having a country run by proxy of a self exiled criminal fugitive from the law through a family member and appointed stooges who then send billions of baht/dollars overseas to him while they try to change the law to give him amnesty?

Edited September 29, 2014 by The Deerhunter

[ThailandNoob]

That was the very reason for the existence of the PDRC, just like Pitak Siam and the PAD that preceded it.

Tear the country apart, create enough chaos, disorder, murder and mayhem that the general population will more willingly accept the intervention of the military in a coup just to end the daily misery. Thus the self inflicted grenade attacks.

It speaks volumes that the people of Bangkok endured the street rabble for over 6 months rather than meekly hand over their hard won political advances.

Eventually economics forced their hand, with too many businesses shut down, tourists numbers dwindling and bills piling up, many were happy for the respite the coup bought to their lives - not happy to give up democracy, but happy to have some sort of normalcy returned to the streets so that they could go about earning a living.

People are not arguing against education, they are wisely arguing against indoctrination.

None of us have seen the syllabus yet, but it is pretty much guaranteed to be a joke as it somehow has to skew democracy to be a system that supports minority rule (functional democracy a-la Hong Kong anyone?).

Will this brainwashing campaign target the red buffalo - of course it will as they are the ones who don't know how to vote for the "good people".

In summary it is not an education campaign, it is a RE-EDUCATION campaign - the difference is huge.

BTW - civil war was never on the cards for two reasons:

1. the PDRC support base was very narrow, basically concentrated from Sutheps home districts in the south and a few plutocrats from BKK.

2. Thaksin knows how to play the long game. Ultimately Thailand will be a functioning, modern, western style democracy. Human progress can be retarded but not denied, particularly in this day and age of social media and iPhones. When the dam wall breaks, Thaksin has positioned himself very nicely to return as the nations hero and saviour.

Finally, why are you hating on Albania?

Indeed, those dastardly PDRC. They even provoked the UDD into talking about sedation and a "Democratic Peoples Republic of Lanna"

Now that should please Robespierre

I'm assuming that you meant "secession" instead of "sedation".

Even though your post is sarcastic, it is actually spot on. The reason the secession talk started was because people in the North and Isan knew that a military coup was in the works (being pushed by Suthep and co.). They believed that if they could get away from Thailand before this happened, then they would be able to keep living in a free, democratic country.

If the Yellows had made a commitment to only seek power by democratic means, then no-one would have pushed for secession.

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[ThailandNoob]

"An election is not the only solution for democracy"

So it is possible to have democracy without elections?

"which needs to have the standardised rule of law and Rechtsstaat, the exercise of rights and liberties within a frame of respect to others, and the people's discipline and peaceful co-existence,"

"Standardised rule of law" would presumably imply an absence of arbitrary detention. And if we are talking about "rights and liberties", I'm assuming that free speech would be a core part of this, given that we are talking about "democracy".

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Yes it can be. Sort of. An autocratic government while not being democratically elected can run a country based on democratic principals with regard to fairness of the rule of law, suppressing corruption and not practicing discrimination against race, sex, age & religion etc.. A few months ago I found a dictionary definition where elections was the 4th or 5th component mentioned. Can't find it now. Despite what PTP say there is a whole lot more to running a country on for the democratic rights of the people to be observed than just running elections. Also Thailand has well proven that you can have a country run in a most undemocratic manner by a party that was ostensibly elected democratically. Do you call having a country run by proxy of a self exiled criminal fugitive from the law through a family member and appointed stooges who then send billions of baht/dollars overseas to him while they try to change the law to give him amnesty?

"while not being democratically elected can run a country based on democratic principals" what kind of doublespeak is this?

You say that PTP are undemocratic because they are run by Thaksin. This would be true if they tried to conceal this. But instead they made this fact completely obvious. In fact I doubt they would have won the election if Thaksin hadn't endorsed Yingluck and called her "his clone".

And when the whole amnesty bill drama erupted, and the "democrats" called their mandate into question, they did the most democratic thing possible and called an election. The Yellows responded by first using violence to shut the election down, then engineering a coup. So please tell me who is democratic and who is not.

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[tbthailand]

Not sure there. The NCPO is certainly aware and has said that certain restrictions now are only in place to help stabilise, reduce the political BS and hopefully help in defining reforms with input of most Thai and acceptable by most Thai. Part of reforms is teaching democratic values. That's something to be done now, not in a years time.

Will part of the reforms include a referendum on the new constitution??

A referendum is not a reform, but might be part of a process / procedure.

The NRC is still in startup phase and still needs to process any input received till now following which they need to work on getting more input from a broad spectre of the Thai society after which they need to try to form proposals on reforms, proposals which can be accepted by most Thai.

So, ask again next year.

And your opinion on the matter?

If there is to be no referendum - if the Thai people are not allowed a say in THEIR new constitution will you be disappointed or will you be happy that the anti-democracy that you so vociferously cheer now will continue?

so far there is no mention of a referendum

but that is a red herring anyway

what good is voting on something when it has been created by the hand-pick lackies of the NCPO?

We were there once already

[ThailandNoob]

The day you accept that the way forward for Thai democracy does not involve military coups will be the day you finally have something worthwhile to champion.

You forgot the IMO, IMHO.

BTW I vaguely remember Gen. Prayut saying something like "this should be the last coup". I have doubts. If Thai are as tunnel visioned as a few posters here and it will be politics as usual end of next year, we will all have learned that Thailand will have lost all the years in this century.

Championing reforms and getting Thai to really cooperate, put forward ideas, etc., etc. seems very worthwhile indeed. At least some of us think so. Other want to go back to chaos instead, it would seem.

Why do I need to add IMO, IMHO everytime I make a post, rubl? I am not professing to speak on behalf of anyone else when stating that your support of a military junta, despite your attempts to dress it up as "the way forward" or any other such platitude, is still offensive to me.

Your attempts to buttonhole people who actually do not think that a military junta nominated and approved reform council/committee is to be trusted to put forward ideas that will benefit Thailand as a whole, as "wanting to go back to chaos" (a "chaos" ,as you describe it, that, may I remind you, was entirely due to 7 months of amart backed protests and illegal actions with the precise aim of creating conditions for a coup) is at best amusing but in reality, pathetic.

True, true, manners don't come natural to most, although many learn later. BTW you seem to have misinterpreted, the IMO I suggested you add, I added IMHO for me).

Anyway, as usual you attack on person, try to misrepresent what I'm saying, tell some prokies and finish with pathetic.

I don't want to replay all our discussions, but as you know the anti-government protests started when the Yingluck Administration pushed through a blanket amnesty bill which even covered Thaksin's last two years in/out of office and Ms. Yinglucks' own first two years. Ms. Yingluck did her usual obfuscation trick with saying "please go home, it's not final", followed by her fellow Pheu Thai members denouncing anti-government protesters as undemocratic, terrorists, etc., etc. After the first attacks on the anti-government protesters things really escalated. Nightly we had cowardly attacks on the anti-government protesters, gunfire and grenades.

None of this is amusing or pathetic. It's sad that some still have their eyes closed while trying to denigrate those they oppose.

People who try to install an unelected "People's Council" by violently shutting down elections are most definitely "undemocratic terrorists". I would have preferred the army to come in and clean these thugs out, but we all know whose side they were on so that was never going to happen. I feel sad for the innocent bystanders that got hurt in the grenade attacks, but have absolutely no sympathy for people that go to rallies to support a movement whose raison d'etre is the violent overthrow of democracy. Som nam na.

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited September 29, 2014 by ThailandNoob

[rubl]

That was the very reason for the existence of the PDRC, just like Pitak Siam and the PAD that preceded it.

Tear the country apart, create enough chaos, disorder, murder and mayhem that the general population will more willingly accept the intervention of the military in a coup just to end the daily misery. Thus the self inflicted grenade attacks.

It speaks volumes that the people of Bangkok endured the street rabble for over 6 months rather than meekly hand over their hard won political advances.

Eventually economics forced their hand, with too many businesses shut down, tourists numbers dwindling and bills piling up, many were happy for the respite the coup bought to their lives - not happy to give up democracy, but happy to have some sort of normalcy returned to the streets so that they could go about earning a living.

People are not arguing against education, they are wisely arguing against indoctrination.

None of us have seen the syllabus yet, but it is pretty much guaranteed to be a joke as it somehow has to skew democracy to be a system that supports minority rule (functional democracy a-la Hong Kong anyone?).

Will this brainwashing campaign target the red buffalo - of course it will as they are the ones who don't know how to vote for the "good people".

In summary it is not an education campaign, it is a RE-EDUCATION campaign - the difference is huge.

BTW - civil war was never on the cards for two reasons:

1. the PDRC support base was very narrow, basically concentrated from Sutheps home districts in the south and a few plutocrats from BKK.

2. Thaksin knows how to play the long game. Ultimately Thailand will be a functioning, modern, western style democracy. Human progress can be retarded but not denied, particularly in this day and age of social media and iPhones. When the dam wall breaks, Thaksin has positioned himself very nicely to return as the nations hero and saviour.

Finally, why are you hating on Albania?

Indeed, those dastardly PDRC. They even provoked the UDD into talking about sedation and a "Democratic Peoples Republic of Lanna"

Now that should please Robespierre

I'm assuming that you meant "secession" instead of "sedation".

Even though your post is sarcastic, it is actually spot on. The reason the secession talk started was because people in the North and Isan knew that a military coup was in the works (being pushed by Suthep and co.). They believed that if they could get away from Thailand before this happened, then they would be able to keep living in a free, democratic country.

If the Yellows had made a commitment to only seek power by democratic means, then no-one would have pushed for secession.

You're right, I meant 'secession'. Thanks.

So, the North and NorthEast knew there would be a coup? Tjeez, that's miraculous even Ms. Yingluck or her golf caddy didn't know that.

Mind you, sedation is one of the charges the police brought against the PDRC. Somehow Ms. Yingluck on being pressured with her side openly talking about dividing the country, only admonished with "this is not the time" and "all should stop these type of talks".

BTW a free, democratic Lanna country with red-shirt schools for democracy? The "democracy 100 percent" blog site start with

PS. some may support a TPLAC like the DPRoL (aka Democratic Peoples Republic of Lanna). With all the Lanna migrant workers returning, Cambodians and those from Myanmar could fill the vacancies for a somewhat adapted wage. Allegedly that is.

Edited September 29, 2014 by rubl

[ThailandNoob]

Will part of the reforms include a referendum on the new constitution??

A referendum is not a reform, but might be part of a process / procedure.

The NRC is still in startup phase and still needs to process any input received till now following which they need to work on getting more input from a broad spectre of the Thai society after which they need to try to form proposals on reforms, proposals which can be accepted by most Thai.

So, ask again next year.

And your opinion on the matter?

If there is to be no referendum - if the Thai people are not allowed a say in THEIR new constitution will you be disappointed or will you be happy that the anti-democracy that you so vociferously cheer now will continue?

so far there is no mention of a referendum

but that is a red herring anyway

what good is voting on something when it has been created by the hand-pick lackies of the NCPO?

We were there once already

I seem to remember that this time the army has said that there will be no referendum.

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[tbthailand]

anecdotally I know rather poor and high school educated but proud rice farmers who are very democratic. I also know university educated business owners who are very undemocratic.

IMO education is not the problem. Understanding democracy is not the problem.

The problem as you point out is the elite class which doesn't actually want democracy at all.

You contradict yourself, my dear chap.

If "educated business owners who are very undemocratic" is true that would indicate that for some understanding democracy is a problem.

Your last sentence is disjunct from the other two. Probably because it's part of a program on obfuscation.

"You contradict yourself, my dear chap."

actually, dear chap, I don't.

please read again.

sound out the words if that helps.

[rubl]

True, true, manners don't come natural to most, although many learn later. BTW you seem to have misinterpreted, the IMO I suggested you add, I added IMHO for me).

Anyway, as usual you attack on person, try to misrepresent what I'm saying, tell some prokies and finish with pathetic.

I don't want to replay all our discussions, but as you know the anti-government protests started when the Yingluck Administration pushed through a blanket amnesty bill which even covered Thaksin's last two years in/out of office and Ms. Yinglucks' own first two years. Ms. Yingluck did her usual obfuscation trick with saying "please go home, it's not final", followed by her fellow Pheu Thai members denouncing anti-government protesters as undemocratic, terrorists, etc., etc. After the first attacks on the anti-government protesters things really escalated. Nightly we had cowardly attacks on the anti-government protesters, gunfire and grenades.

None of this is amusing or pathetic. It's sad that some still have their eyes closed while trying to denigrate those they oppose.

People who try to install an unelected "People's Council" by violently shutting down elections are most definitely "undemocratic terrorists". I would have preferred the army to come in and clean these thugs out, but we all know whose side they were on so that was never going to happen. I feel sad for the innocent bystanders that got hurt in the grenade attacks, but have absolutely no sympathy for people that go to rallies to support a movement whose raison d'etre is the violent overthrow of democracy. Som nam na.

The Yingluck Government already started to call the anti-government protesters before Ms. Yingluck dissolved the House on December 9th, 2013.

You pretend to support democracy and still say you would have preferred the army to 'take care'. Somewhat confusing, but I guess that explains why you have no sympathy for anti-government protesters.

BTW a long, long time ago those anti-government protests started with the Yingluck Government trying to push through a blanket amnesty bill which would even have covered their own two years in office. Democratically of course.

Anti-government protesters. Governments don't seem to like them

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/29/world/asia/clashes-in-hong-kong.html?emc=edit_th_20140929&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=39319653&_r=0

Edited September 29, 2014 by rubl

[rubl]

so far there is no mention of a referendum

but that is a red herring anyway

what good is voting on something when it has been created by the hand-pick lackies of the NCPO?

We were there once already

"hand-picked lackies" ?

Read a bit, my dear chap. The selection process for the 11 NRC committees is in progress. Of course, only those who applied will be considered.

Which reminds me, I still wonder about that Surin family with too many relatives wanting to help out. Till now no details. Former Senator Yutthana said he would petition the Adm. Court to suspend announcement of NRC members in the provinces. PM Prayut remarked that those who questioned the selection process could proceed as they saw fit. So maybe one of these days the prominent family will be made known and praised here on TVF

PS your "what good is voting" seems like a rhetorical question you answer yourself following which you continue with speculating on that answer. Interesting debating technique.

Edited September 29, 2014 by rubl

[mikemac]

As it seems I'll be waiting a long time for the democratic Yingluk's highlights, I'll reply to this piece of garbage. can you not conceive of any actions of an elected government that would warrant its removal?

Even in democratic countries with well developed (and funded) oversight bodies, governments PMs and Presidents have been forced from office. In Thailand where these bodies are weak (and starved thanks to Yingluk), massive corruption should be allowed, criminal pandering to an unelected autocrat is fine, and B700+ billion lost in an idiotic scam should be allowed to continue - because that's how YOU think democracy should work.

So when does the reign of terror start?

Hosting a cooking show warrants the removal of an elected Prime Minister??

The independent oversight bodies in Thailand aren't weak, they are extremely powerful. The problem is that they are not independent but operate under the control of an unelected few via an incestuous appointment process birthed in the butchering of the 1997 constitution by a previous unelected coup regime. These "weak" oversight bodies have silenced the voices of the people of the nation on numerous occasions throwing out elected government after elected government.

Policies that subsidies a nations agricultural industries aren't corruption or idiotic scams but are mechanisms used by normal competent governments of all persuasions the world over to sustain and protect their nations food sources and to pump capital into rural regions to generate economic activity and growth.

Losers accepting their defeat and allowing the winners to govern until the next election is not how i think democracy should work - it IS how democracy works.

The reign of terror, the assault on freedom and the curbing of individuals civil rights began the day democracy ended.

"

"Hosting a cooking show warrants the removal of an elected Prime Minister??"

Why do you persist with this lie? Samak was removed for accepting payment and lying about it, but could have been re-appointed by his party. Thaksin decided on his B-I-L instead.

I'll leave you to your red delusions of how the opposition and the voters should ignore a government's failings. Come back when you wake up to the reality that accountability exists.

BTW still working on those democratic high points? How about the amnesty for the crimes of the government proposing it and still in progress? a few G2G rice deals maybe?

Samak hosted a Sunday cooking show for years called Cooking and Complaining, I recall.

While he was Prime Minister he was a guest host one Sunday afternoon.

I think they paid him 5,000 or 6,000 Bt, no?

The land deal case against Thaksin is just as weak.

But technically the judges (a stacked court of Thaksins enemies) tossed them out.

Later we have Suthep blasting away at protestors killing 91, closing down Bangkok, threatening to kidnap Yingluk, blocking the polls and on and on.. and he doesn't even get a spanking.

Somethings wrong.

Yep, something is wrong alright.................. Your post.

If there is a forum rule regarding not posting blatant bs, then your post will be removed.

[Robespiere]

Democracy was "suspended" because it WAS working.

For the first time in the nations history everyday people had a say in how the nation was to be run.

Sick of being robbed blind by the ruling class and told to live a life of sufficiency where happiness, not money, was the only measure that counted whilst their rulers kept their snouts in the trough.

To say that the common Thai is too dumb to vote defies the reality of the events in the country since 2001.

The people have consistently exercised their franchise and voted in the party that most improved their lot in life.

Democracy will return to Thailand but not because the Dictatorship "allows" it, but because the people will, eventually, rise up and restore it themselves.

Another whose knowledge of democracy fails to get past "elections, one man one vote". On that level, everything was hunky-dory except for a few breaches of electoral that should have seen PTP disbanded - participation of banned politicians and party list candidates facing serious criminal charges. but hey, why bother with electoral law, they ignore it at every election.

However, getting past the election and looking at how the country was run, do you really see a working democracy. Private militia, suborned police, criminal actions, self-serving policies rank with corruption, regulators starved of funds, family members appointed and promoted without merit - not features of real democracies.

Another who ignores the forces acting against democracy in this nation and the tremendous power they continue to wield.

The Thai judiciary is far from "blind and just" especially when it comes to politics. Ditto the Electoral Commission, the NACC etc.etc.etc.

All elected governments in Thailand operate with one hand tied behind their back as they have never been able to fully wrest power away from the old establishment (namely the plutocracy and the military).

No matter how great the electoral victory there are certain aspect of Thai society that are beyond the control of civilian governments, there are vested interests that are protected by powerful people.

Well you seem to ignore the problems I had with the last "democracy". Why don't you counter with some of the democracy high points of the Yingluk administration?

How about just one high point, the highest point of Yinglucks administration.

When a small (but significant) minority of the electorate took to the streets to voice their discontent with her government what did Yingluck do:

Have the police brutalise the protestors? Jail them? Tear gas? Call out the tanks? Slaughter 90 odd citizens in the streets?

None of the above!

She dissolved parliament and called a snap election - returning power to the people of the nation to freely choose who will form the the next government.

Now it's your turn, democracy high points from the coup (choose any of the 20 odd coups to have occurred or been attempted in this nation that you like).

[djjamie]

"He urged the ministry to create a new culture in society for people to accurately understand democracy"

Just as child birth is painful pre-empting the arrival of a beautiful child. The birth of a return to democracy (not just elections) can be painful pre-empting the arrival of true democracy (all the principles). Well it is only painful to the UDD and the PTP. The majority through all failed elections, all polls and narrative support this. It is only a bitter twisted "belief" that keeps the 7% minority believing their twisted views.

The gestation period of an elephant is 680 days which is not dissimilar to the stated return to democracy the Good General has highlighted.

I look forward to that birth through education.

[jdinasia]

Another whose knowledge of democracy fails to get past "elections, one man one vote". On that level, everything was hunky-dory except for a few breaches of electoral that should have seen PTP disbanded - participation of banned politicians and party list candidates facing serious criminal charges. but hey, why bother with electoral law, they ignore it at every election.

However, getting past the election and looking at how the country was run, do you really see a working democracy. Private militia, suborned police, criminal actions, self-serving policies rank with corruption, regulators starved of funds, family members appointed and promoted without merit - not features of real democracies.

Another who ignores the forces acting against democracy in this nation and the tremendous power they continue to wield.

The Thai judiciary is far from "blind and just" especially when it comes to politics. Ditto the Electoral Commission, the NACC etc.etc.etc.

All elected governments in Thailand operate with one hand tied behind their back as they have never been able to fully wrest power away from the old establishment (namely the plutocracy and the military).

No matter how great the electoral victory there are certain aspect of Thai society that are beyond the control of civilian governments, there are vested interests that are protected by powerful people.

Well you seem to ignore the problems I had with the last "democracy". Why don't you counter with some of the democracy high points of the Yingluk administration?

How about just one high point, the highest point of Yinglucks administration.

When a small (but significant) minority of the electorate took to the streets to voice their discontent with her government what did Yingluck do:

Have the police brutalise the protestors? Jail them? Tear gas? Call out the tanks? Slaughter 90 odd citizens in the streets?

None of the above!

She dissolved parliament and called a snap election - returning power to the people of the nation to freely choose who will form the the next government.

Now it's your turn, democracy high points from the coup (choose any of the 20 odd coups to have occurred or been attempted in this nation that you like).

umm I guess you weren't here during the most recent major protests.. Edited September 29, 2014 by metisdead
Messed up quotes, removed center core quote to fix.

[rubl]

anecdotally I know rather poor and high school educated but proud rice farmers who are very democratic. I also know university educated business owners who are very undemocratic.

IMO education is not the problem. Understanding democracy is not the problem.

The problem as you point out is the elite class which doesn't actually want democracy at all.

You contradict yourself, my dear chap.

If "educated business owners who are very undemocratic" is true that would indicate that for some understanding democracy is a problem.

Your last sentence is disjunct from the other two. Probably because it's part of a program on obfuscation.

"You contradict yourself, my dear chap."

actually, dear chap, I don't.

please read again.

sound out the words if that helps.

'sound out the words' doesn't really help with this.

You write to know democratic and undemocratic people following which you blame 'the elite' for not wanting democracy at all.

Maybe you're right, it's not a contradiction, it's just all obfuscation, baiting nonsense.

Excuses that I misunderstood

[rubl]

I seem to remember that this time the army has said that there will be no referendum.

True, I also remember that.

It seems the reasoning behind that is that with the NRC consisting of mainly Thai who applied of were applied and having the NRC committees requesting all Thais to offer their valuable input, the NRC should be able to formulate reforms which should be acceptable by most Thai. Assuming this is correct, a referendum would be a waste of 3 - 4 billion Baht.

Of course if political strife results in only a limited number of Thais providing input the job is that much more difficult for the NRC, something which would show in their reporting.

[rubl]

I seem to remember that this time the army has said that there will be no referendum.

True, I also remember that.

It seems the reasoning behind that is that with the NRC consisting of mainly Thai who applied of were applied and having the NRC committees requesting all Thais to offer their valuable input, the NRC should be able to formulate reforms which should be acceptable by most Thai. Assuming this is correct, a referendum would be a waste of 3 - 4 billion Baht.

Of course if political strife results in only a limited number of Thais providing input the job is that much more difficult for the NRC, something which would show in their reporting.