How to earth a shower?

[torrow]

I'm in the process of installing a hot water shower.It needs to be earthed but the electric supply in the building is 2 wires only - no earth. Likewise, all the water pipes are plastic. How do I connect this shower to earth?

[AYJAYDEE]

run a separate ground wire to a dedicated copper ground rod

[transam]

Are you ground floor..?

[torrow]

On the forth floor :-(

[Crossy]

OK, first install an RCD (Safe-T-Cut) if you don't already have one. This will mean that you can get away with a relatively poor ground on your shower without increasing the hazard to life.

Do you have any accessible building steel that you can connect to, even a balcony railing will provide enough of a ground to trip the RCD.

Let's move this to 'lectrical where the sparkies live

[sipi]

Follow the instructions to the letter. My instructions that came with our unit were in Thai, but very explanatory. My wife deciphered them for me, which meant installing 3 earth stakes 1.2 metres apart. If it means running a dedicated (conduited) earth wire 4 floors, then do it. You only die once.

[sabaii69]

Great subject! I have been getting mysterious shocks (small) from my metal shower head tubing. Ah so.....

[lopburi3]

The unit should have an RCD built in to protect from beyond on-off switch - as said above make sure you have RCD protection on feed line (all of apartment would be best/normal). Then try to find the best ground - which in apartment building have been advised is normally in elevator shaft.

As for new shower head question it is best to use plastic tube (which I believe is always what is supplied) rather than the chrome hose - but if you are getting shocks from it sounds like built in RCD is not working and unit is not grounded either. Something is very defective and I would not be using.

[catweazle]

I strongly suggest YOU, the original poster to consult an electrician specialized in this and certified to do such installations.

I strongly suggest EVERY POSTER here to erase your answer, even if they are correct, as the OP can later blame your answer for a deadly accident. I know this is Thailand, etc. but you never know!

Son of a friend of mine died in a shower here in LOS, thus I know what I am talking about.

Stay save!

Edited October 2, 2014 by catweazle

[bankruatsteve]

FWI: You can feel a "tingle" well below the 30ma that an RCD will trip. Grounding, however, should remove even that.

[Nemesis7]

get the condo electrician to do it for you, its shouldnt cost you more than 100 bhat or 200 tip but saves you hassle

[kinmaew]

Pardon my ignorance here. Over the years I have seen these devices with the red message in Thai "Dangerous to Life". So, as I understand it in developed countries we have positive, negative and earth but in Thailand only positive and negative so you need to run a separate earth wire to the ground. Now, in the majority of the hotels I have been in no worries it works fine but I always worry what if they have not been checking or maintaining that critical earth wire (e.g. could pull lose or get snapped off if not properly installed to the building) the next time you turn on the water it could be the end. Is this a correct analysis of a potential risk or have I missed something?

[Chao Lao Beach]

I strongly suggest YOU, the original poster to consult an electrician specialized in this and certified to do such installations.

I strongly suggest EVERY POSTER here to erase your answer, even if they are correct, as the OP can later blame your answer for a deadly accident. I know this is Thailand, etc. but you never know!

Son of a friend of mine died in a shower here in LOS, thus I know what I am talking about.

Stay save!

Dear Catweazle, I am sure you have fantastic intentions, but you where do you suggest people find domestic sprakies in Thailand.

Follow Crossy and save your life.

[Crossy]

Pardon my ignorance here. Over the years I have seen these devices with the red message in Thai "Dangerous to Life". So, as I understand it in developed countries we have positive, negative and earth but in Thailand only positive and negative so you need to run a separate earth wire to the ground. Now, in the majority of the hotels I have been in no worries it works fine but I always worry what if they have not been checking or maintaining that critical earth wire (e.g. could pull lose or get snapped off if not properly installed to the building) the next time you turn on the water it could be the end. Is this a correct analysis of a potential risk or have I missed something?

Pretty much it although it's not positive and negative it's live and neutral.

The problem is that a Class-1 appliance (that is one that needs a ground) will function just fine without, until it develops a fault and kills you.

Because it works without the ground many Thais (including "electricians") believe this third wire does nothing and is not needed. People dying (including young children, remember the ATM incident a few weeks ago) seems to do nothing to change this view

[KhnomKhnom]

On the forth floor :-(

Some suggestions run a green color insulation copper wire to

-the metal on the frame of the elevator/lift.

-some metal pipes inside a service hatch, but NOT the gas pipe.

-out through the wall and down to the dirt where you put in a 2meter ground/earthing rod.

Do not connect a "ground" to the neutral white wire in the incoming electrical supply wires.\

Maybe someone in the building has answer for that specific building.

[bankruatsteve]

What might be a good idea for these old apt buildings is to sink an earth rod and put external bus around the building so that every apartment could connect. (?)

[torrow]

Unfortunately this is a very old four story. All the sockets are just 2 pin. When we came home with a new rice cooker recently, she promptly broke off the third pin on the plug. Apparently it's the norm here. My plan now is to run a cable down the outside of the building and hammer a big stake into the ground - or I could continue taking cold showers. There is a pinned thread here now to test your earth. Unfortunately, after an experience with a tiler,I'm dubious about trusting Thai 'tradesmen' again.

[Liquorice]

What size Kw shower are you thinking of installing?

If it's only a 3.5kw a 2.5 twin and earth cable is sufficient run back to your consumer unit to a 20amp trip switch.

3500w divided by 220v = 15.9amp.

The earth should be connected to the earth bar of the consumer unit.

In theory the earth bar is connected to the metal casing, which is screwed into a concrete wall, thus earthed.

(That's Thai theory)

Personally I would run a separate 6mm earth from your consumer unit to a 2m copper grounding rod outside the building.

DO NOT attempt to find an earth point in an elevator shaft.................that has it's own dangers and is illegal.

The only way to test you have a suitable grounded earth is to buy a multi meter and test for a 220v current between live and earth.

If you can't read 220v, you haven't got an earth.

In Thailand they tend to run twin cable because of cost. (Another example of cost over safety).

Three core (twin and earth) is available in 1.5mm and 2.5mm cable around 50 baht a metre or less and should be colour coded to the new international regulations, brown = live, blue = neutral, green = earth.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Faz

[jacko45k]

I strongly suggest YOU, the original poster to consult an electrician specialized in this and certified to do such installations.

I strongly suggest EVERY POSTER here to erase your answer, even if they are correct, as the OP can later blame your answer for a deadly accident. I know this is Thailand, etc. but you never know!

Son of a friend of mine died in a shower here in LOS, thus I know what I am talking about.

Stay save!

Yeah, I have a cat that catches rats so I know all about that too.

Many shower deaths are actually due to falls and hard tiles.

A RCB breaker will give a good level of protection, they also call them ELCB here although strictly that is not the same.

The shower unit should have one built in, if not, get one that does.

Finding a good earth is tough on a building that didn't consider it to start with. And being up on the 4th floor makes it difficult to put in your own ground rods...but you could go that way. Beware of connecting to the one a lightning rod uses!

[emanphoto]

We are having all new electric put in with everything grounded. Will the shower still need it's own separate grounding rod?

[bankruatsteve]

We are having all new electric put in with everything grounded. Will the shower still need it's own separate grounding rod?

No.

[KhnomKhnom]

OK, first install an RCD (Safe-T-Cut) if you don't already have one. This will mean that you can get away with a relatively poor ground on your shower without increasing the hazard to life.

Do you have any accessible building steel that you can connect to, even a balcony railing will provide enough of a ground to trip the RCD.

Let's move this to 'lectrical where the sparkies live

A residual-current device (RCD), or residual-current circuit breaker (RCCB) is an electrical wiring device that disconnects a circuit whenever it detects that the electric current is not balanced between the energized conductor and the return neutral conductor.

In the United States and Canada, a residual-current device is most commonly known as a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI), Ground Fault Interrupter (GFI) or an Appliance Leakage Current Interrupter (ALCI).

[KhnomKhnom]

to help with different countries using different terms............. These two device categories are talking about the same function:

A residual-current device (RCD), or residual-current circuit breaker (RCCB) is an electrical wiring device that disconnects a circuit whenever it detects that the electric current is not balanced between the energized conductor and the return neutral conductor.

In the United States and Canada, a residual-current device is most commonly known as a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter(GFCI), Ground Fault Interrupter (GFI) or an Appliance Leakage Current Interrupter (ALCI).

[Liquorice]

bankruatsteve, on 03 Oct 2014 - 13:54, said:

emanphoto, on 03 Oct 2014 - 13:52, said:

We are having all new electric put in with everything grounded. Will the shower still need it's own separate grounding rod?

No.

But if the consumer unit isn't grounded, running earth wires to sockets and switches wouldn't earth them, that is why you may need a grounding rod, to earth the consumer unit.

In the UK consumer units are grounded by incoming iron pipe gas supply and copper water supply.

Pipes are then cross bonded under sinks and boilers.

In Thailand pipes are plastic so can't be used as a ground to earth.

On the plus side, plastic isn't conductive so stainless steel sinks don't need grounding here.

It's very east to test if your back boxes are earthed with a multi meter.

[BKKdreaming]

Unfortunately this is a very old four story. All the sockets are just 2 pin. When we came home with a new rice cooker recently, she promptly broke off the third pin on the plug. Apparently it's the norm here. My plan now is to run a cable down the outside of the building and hammer a big stake into the ground - or I could continue taking cold showers. There is a pinned thread here now to test your earth. Unfortunately, after an experience with a tiler,I'm dubious about trusting Thai 'tradesmen' again.

This is how many of the old houses in my area of Los Angeles are , 2 pin and you can put the plug in regular and upside down ,

We have 110v but it can still kill you quick enough

will a ground fault circuit interrupter solve the problem on water line heaters ?

and if you look at the photo these are the electric shower heads common in South america ,

I like the idea but do not know how to make it safe enough to use !

[emanphoto]

Consumer unit = ?

Back boxes = ?

If the wiring for the entire house is grounded, then the feed to the showers should be as well, no? Yes TIT and all that.

bankruatsteve, on 03 Oct 2014 - 13:54, said:

emanphoto, on 03 Oct 2014 - 13:52, said:

We are having all new electric put in with everything grounded. Will the shower still need it's own separate grounding rod?

No.

But if the consumer unit isn't grounded, running earth wires to sockets and switches wouldn't earth them, that is why you may need a grounding rod, to earth the consumer unit.

In the UK consumer units are grounded by incoming iron pipe gas supply and copper water supply.

Pipes are then cross bonded under sinks and boilers.

In Thailand pipes are plastic so can't be used as a ground to earth.

On the plus side, plastic isn't conductive so stainless steel sinks don't need grounding here.

It's very east to test if your back boxes are earthed with a multi meter.

[Liquorice]

emanphoto, on 04 Oct 2014 - 11:21, said:emanphoto, on 04 Oct 2014 - 11:21, said:

Consumer unit = ?

Back boxes = ?

If the wiring for the entire house is grounded, then the feed to the showers should be as well, no? Yes TIT and all that.

Faz, on 04 Oct 2014 - 00:09, said:Faz, on 04 Oct 2014 - 00:09, said:

bankruatsteve, on 03 Oct 2014 - 13:54, said:bankruatsteve, on 03 Oct 2014 - 13:54, said:bankruatsteve, on 03 Oct 2014 - 13:54, said:

emanphoto, on 03 Oct 2014 - 13:52, said:emanphoto, on 03 Oct 2014 - 13:52, said:emanphoto, on 03 Oct 2014 - 13:52, said:

We are having all new electric put in with everything grounded. Will the shower still need it's own separate grounding rod?

No.

But if the consumer unit isn't grounded, running earth wires to sockets and switches wouldn't earth them, that is why you may need a grounding rod, to earth the consumer unit.

In the UK consumer units are grounded by incoming iron pipe gas supply and copper water supply.

Pipes are then cross bonded under sinks and boilers.

In Thailand pipes are plastic so can't be used as a ground to earth.

On the plus side, plastic isn't conductive so stainless steel sinks don't need grounding here.

It's very east to test if your back boxes are earthed with a multi meter.

Consumer Unit = Fusebox

Back boxes = The metal box embedded in the wall to which the switch or socket is attached to.

You may have your home rewired, with earth wires to all sockets and switches, but that doesn't mean they are earthed!

The cables run back to the Consumer Unit where all the earth wires are attached to a block terminal.

If that block terminal isn't earthed to ground then neither are your switches or sockets.

The norm in Thailand is to run a 6mm earth cable from that earth terminal block in the consumer unit to an external copper rod staked in the ground.

Your shower should be a twin and earth cable, either 2.5mm or 6.0mm cable dependant on what size kw of shower you choose.

Just as sockets and lighting earths are connected to your Consumer Unit, the shower earth is connected in the same way, so again if the earth terminal block in the Consumer Unit isn't grounded to earth, then neither is anything else earthed, including your shower.

Very few electricians in Thailand tend to connect earths or even understand the importance of earthing.

They use two wire cable because it is cheaper.

Some run a two wire cable and a separate earth cable, but don't check it is actually connected to an earthed source.

The electricians scare the sh*t out of me with some of their practices here.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Faz