Australian PM orders parliamentary burka ban rethink

[louse1953]

Tomorrow a nun will not be baned with the same clothes as a moslima.

Tomorrow a moslima will be baned with the same clothes as a nun.

Yes, this is fair. It sums up perfectly the previous poster's limited analogy to nuns versus burkas. I think the connection is a fair one to consider, but ultimately fails because the reason- the motivations- behind the urge to limit concealing clothing. The reason various countries are seeking to limit or address muslim clothing (burka oppose to ni(hi)jib is because of threat, the aura associated threat, and the supremist behaviors increasingly associated with islam- as declared by the adherents. In other words, besides the clothing itself possibly concealing a threat (as it is widely known jihadists wear burkas to evade. Indeed, while in Afghanistan even I carried a burka in the bottom of my "go to hell" bag, to evade if needed), increasingly the demand to wear burkas is arising in the social context of muslims demanding a host of other accomodations as well.

This is important. While the issue of the burka hardly seems of considerable importance, because of its visability it has become a lightening rod. Thus the burka is far less a singular issue of a religion's rights, it is a component of a religion that is increasingly limiting other's rights in many countries, while demanding special protections for their behavior. I have no problem with muslims wearing their bedsheets if they wish but they should be prohibited from driving with them on, entering public transportation, public spaces, or any other venue in which it is clearly published covering is prohibited, private or public. It is ridiculous to equate burkas with nun attire. It misses the entire underlying issue.

Lastly, nun's do not have the same attire as burkas, it is more similar to hijab/scraf. A burka is basically rolling a woman up in carpet and cutting a slit so she can see.

Pat's rant says more about his intolerance than burqas.

[Ulysses G.]

Pat's rant says more about his intolerance than burqas.

Pat Condell is full of common sense as usual.

That spaghetti eating video is a classic.

[Thorgal]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

As a student of history, I would be very interested in seeing a photo of these full face coverings of Nuns in Australia as I have no recollection of ever having seen them in my study. Mind, not questioning, just wanting to learn. Can you post at least one photo of this?

How many of those nuns did suicide bombings?

How many Australian burqua wearing women have suicide bombed?

None, but that is not important.

Australia has not really domestic muslim terrorist problems.

There's no local threat or fear.

Burqa ban an police raids are good for the public opinion since Australia joined the coalition forces.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Thorgal

[cooked]

Pat's rant says more about his intolerance than burqas.

Pat Condell is full of common sense as usual.

That spaghetti eating video is a classic.

I just can't work out why I should be tolerant of people that are very evidently, proudly and openly, intolerant. That's what racism comes down to as far as I'm concerned and I've been the foreigner all my working life.

[Ulysses G.]

I just can't work out why I should be tolerant of people that are very evidently, proudly and openly, intolerant. That's what racism comes down to as far as I'm concerned and I've been the foreigner all my working life.

If, you are referring to radical Islam, you and I are on the same page. They are about as intolerant as you can get.

[samran]

I just can't work out why I should be tolerant of people that are very evidently, proudly and openly, intolerant. That's what racism comes down to as far as I'm concerned and I've been the foreigner all my working life.

If, you are referring to radical Islam, you and I are on the same page. They are about as intolerant as you can get.

Which for me makes them and the pat condel types no different.

Bit of banter on another thread about not much difference between a moderate and a radical Muslim, with a few offensive lines about the moderates are the ones who have run out of bullets or prefer the others to do the killing for them.

The pat condels of the world stir the pot of division and fear which plays perfectly into the hands of radicals, and make him an effective radical recruitment tool.

[Ulysses G.]

Do you know anything about Pat Condell? The only thing he is "intolerant" about is the evils of religion - all of them - and although I am not an atheist, he is almost always spot on in his criticisms.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[samran]

Do you know anything about Pat Condell? The only thing he is "intolerant" about is the evils of religion - all of them - and although I am not an atheist, he is almost always spot on in his criticisms.

Sure, though I don't make a habit of following failed Irish stand up comics with cultural superiority complexes.

Problem is, he is still being offensive who hold religion as something important to them. And he doesn't care.

I find many aspects of all religions frankly stupid. Antagonist approach rarely works especially when you let your work become quoted by far right political parties. You become identified by them and no one else. Prefer the Richard Dawkins approach to the absurdity of religion, and even then someone like him can offend.

Governments should be encouraging and giving traction to the more articulate moderates inside Islam tent and giving them airtime (which many do but get no credit for, given they don't get the mainstream recognition).

The pat condels polarise, which does no one any favours, except for the radicals.

Edited October 5, 2014 by samran

[samran]

I just can't work out why I should be tolerant of people that are very evidently, proudly and openly, intolerant. That's what racism comes down to as far as I'm concerned and I've been the foreigner all my working life.

If, you are referring to radical Islam, you and I are on the same page. They are about as intolerant as you can get.

Which for me makes them and the pat condel types no different.

Bit of banter on another thread about not much difference between a moderate and a radical Muslim, with a few offensive lines about the moderates are the ones who have run out of bullets or prefer the others to do the killing for them.

The pat condels of the world stir the pot of division and fear which plays perfectly into the hands of radicals, and make him an effective radical recruitment tool.

I wonder if you have watched any of his videos on Islam..

Indeed. Same way as l listed to the debate growing up in Australia about how Asians were going to flood Australia and destroy the Australia way of life, to the level of abuse for simply walking down the street.

How I've had to listed to people say 'you can't even go to the city anymore and hear people speaking English'.

All of which were a load of tosh. I've seen these guys around all my life, had them question my legitimacy as well as that of my family.

I shall give them no quarter.

Edited October 5, 2014 by samran

[harrry]

I wonder if you have watched any of his videos on Islam..

Indeed. Same way as l listed to the debate growing up in Australia about how Asians were going to flood Australia and destroy the Australia way of life, to the level of abuse for simply walking down the street.

How I've had to listed to people say 'you can't even go to the city anymore and hear people speaking English'.

All of which were a load of tosh. I've seen these guys around all my life, had them question my legitimacy as well as that of my family.

I shall give them no quarter.

Samran...you should know that questioning legitimacy is normal for australians....They call everyone <deleted> wherever they come from.

[samran]

I wonder if you have watched any of his videos on Islam..

Indeed. Same way as l listed to the debate growing up in Australia about how Asians were going to flood Australia and destroy the Australia way of life, to the level of abuse for simply walking down the street.

How I've had to listed to people say 'you can't even go to the city anymore and hear people speaking English'.

All of which were a load of tosh. I've seen these guys around all my life, had them question my legitimacy as well as that of my family.

I shall give them no quarter.

Samran...you should know that questioning legitimacy is normal for australians....They call everyone wherever they come from.

Haha.

When can we focus on the poms again?

[Time Traveller]

After reading this news I question how big a problem is this? It's almost 20 years since I lived/went to school in Australia. I can't remember seeing a single person wearing head coverings or muslim dress. The media news pictures make Australia look like some middle east ghetto.

Sad to see a peaceful country change for the worse like this.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Time Traveller

[samran]

After reading this news I question how big a problem is this? It's been 20 years since I lived/went to school in Australia. I can't remember seeing a single person wearing head coverings or muslim dress.

Sad to see a peaceful country change for the worse like this.

This is a red herring story. Don't believe the hype.

[Ulysses G.]

I find many aspects of all religions frankly stupid. Antagonist approach rarely works especially when you let your work become quoted by far right political parties. You become identified by them and no one else. Prefer the Richard Dawkins approach to the absurdity of religion, and even then someone like him can offend.

If you find "many aspects of all religions frankly stupid", you and he have a lot in common. I guess it bothers you that he is quoted by the right, although I don't see how he could stop that, even if he wanted to. You don't seem to be able to stop supporters of radical Islamic groups and obvious anti-Semites from "liking" your posts here on TV and I doubt if you agree with them about most things. Richard Dawkins sings his praises, by the way.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

Who are these ' supporters of radical Islamic groups and obvious anti-Semites' on TV?

Back on topic: obviously when passing through a security check any one whose face is covered should be made to show it.

the same when in any situation where identity needs to be established. Such as when taking a UK driving test; a woman wearing a burqa, or any other face covering, has to remove it so the examiner can check her face against the photo on her provisional driving licence. The same as when presenting her passport at immigration.

I can also see the reason why, in a recent UK court case, the judge insisted that a burka wearing woman removed it when giving evidence; facial expressions can be a strong indicator of the veracity of what a witness is saying.

Other than these, what a woman, or anyone else, chooses to wear should not be the business of government or anyone else; apart from public decency considerations, of course.

These vary from country to country. In some countries a woman wandering around a shopping mall in a bikini may attract attention; but would not be considered indecent; in others, such as Thailand, she would be.

As said many times whenever this subject has been raised; burqas and other forms of 'modesty' dress are not an Islamic thing, they are a cultural thing. Many Muslim women, in Muslim and non Muslim countries, wear western clothes and do not cover their hair or face. Many non Muslim women from those areas where such clothing is common do.

[samran]

I find many aspects of all religions frankly stupid. Antagonist approach rarely works especially when you let your work become quoted by far right political parties. You become identified by them and no one else. Prefer the Richard Dawkins approach to the absurdity of religion, and even then someone like him can offend.

If you find "many aspects of all religions frankly stupid", you and he have a lot in common. I guess it bothers you that he is quoted by the right, although I don't see how he could stop that, even if he wanted to. You don't seem to be able to stop supporters of radical Islamic groups and obvious anti-Semites from "liking" your posts here on TV and I doubt if you agree with them about most things. Richard Dawkins sings his praises, by the way.

He could come out, like demanded by many of the anti islamites here, to make a stand, like is demanded of the moderate Islamic groups. Good for the goose should be good for the gander, non?

As for the Islamic supporters and the anti Semites, who are they? I mean you've been known to like a comment or two of mine

[Ulysses G.]

I would be more than willing to specify, if I would not be suspended for naming names.

Pat Condell HAS spoken out against the BNP. He has made a stand:

"I believe the BNP has a racial agenda, and is therefore a racist party...I'd rather drive a garden fork through my own foot than vote for the BNP."

Edited October 5, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[samran]

I would be more than willing to specify, if I would not be suspended for naming names.

Pat Condell HAS spoken out against the BNP. He has made a stand:

"I believe the BNP has a racial agenda, and is therefore a racist party...I'd rather drive a garden fork through my own foot than vote for the BNP."

Perhaps, but playing devils advocate, he supports the UKIP, which to my mind is a bit like BNP lite.

I'll also hold him to the same standard others hold moderate Islamists here, he better run around Hyde park denouncing the BNP with pink undies and his hair on fire doing it every Saturday for a year till I think his genuine.

Anyway, we are digressing, this is about the Australian parliament, and according to our own PM, this is all a bit of a beat up story. Very rarely do I agree with him.

Edited October 5, 2014 by samran

[JDGRUEN]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

I doubt seriously that the faces of the nuns were fully covered ... AND you use the past tense as in 'wore'... meaning Catholics evolved and came to their senses -- advancing with civilization and no longer required a habit. Plus that was a special requirement of the Church - with a similar requirement of Priests wearing a frock and a white collar and not marrying ... The members of the Catholic church congregation wore everyday clothes and they had but one wife and/or one husband.

Seems Muslims still live a 1000 years ago - when women were counted as assets same a cattle... Being forced to wear a Burqa is abuse - plain and simple. ... You either have an National identity or you don't ... you have a National Culture - or you don't... Are you Australians or are you Australians and ten other cultures -- with no one National Cultural Identity?

You once did ... and it was shining... no better ally - no better right thinker, no better defender of freedom... So you throw it all away to be Politically Correct ? Is that right?

[H1w4yR1da]

Perhaps, but playing devils advocate, he supports the UKIP, which to my mind is a bit like BNP lite.

I'll also hold him to the same standard others hold moderate Islamists here, he better run around Hyde park denouncing the BNP with pink undies and his hair on fire doing it every Saturday for a year till I think his genuine.

Do the BNP blow up London buses and Underground trains? Do the BNP cut the heads off British soldiers on the streets of London? Do the BNP demonstrate and scream obscenities against returning British troops at Wooton Bassett? Do the BNP attempt to blow up passenger air planes with explosives hidden in their underpants or shoes?

The BNP, unlike the UKIP, aren't a political force. Fortunately, there's a resurgence of the right in Europe at the moment which is partly due to continuous and numerous Islamic atrocities.

[ableguy]

Burquas should be banned in all the Western World when they pose security issues.. That would include in my view all places where people gather, banks, shops, restaurants and all public transport. No doubt many more places. When a crime is committed, witnesses are usually able to give a description of the criminal. What information can you provide when the suspect is adorned in a burqua.

Let the wearers remember whose country it is...and then consider abiding by that countries rules!

.

Should ban all mosques too, only allow one mosque for one church in Saudi, when they allow ten churches then they can build ten mosques, note but in Australia only not USA.

[ableguy]

I find many aspects of all religions frankly stupid. Antagonist approach rarely works especially when you let your work become quoted by far right political parties. You become identified by them and no one else. Prefer the Richard Dawkins approach to the absurdity of religion, and even then someone like him can offend.

If you find "many aspects of all religions frankly stupid", you and he have a lot in common. I guess it bothers you that he is quoted by the right, although I don't see how he could stop that, even if he wanted to. You don't seem to be able to stop supporters of radical Islamic groups and obvious anti-Semites from "liking" your posts here on TV and I doubt if you agree with them about most things. Richard Dawkins sings his praises, by the way.

I too think all religions are stupid, fantasy and the product of a limited yet controlling mind, does this make me anti Semitic??

[samran]

Perhaps, but playing devils advocate, he supports the UKIP, which to my mind is a bit like BNP lite.

I'll also hold him to the same standard others hold moderate Islamists here, he better run around Hyde park denouncing the BNP with pink undies and his hair on fire doing it every Saturday for a year till I think his genuine.

Do the BNP blow up London buses and Underground trains? Do the BNP cut the heads off British soldiers on the streets of London? Do the BNP demonstrate and scream obscenities against returning British troops at Wooton Bassett? Do the BNP attempt to blow up passenger air planes with explosives hidden in their underpants or shoes?

The BNP, unlike the UKIP, aren't a political force. Fortunately, there's a resurgence of the right in Europe at the moment which is partly due to continuous and numerous Islamic atrocities.

Keep up.

This Pat condell fella reckons the BNP are a pack of racists. Last I looked, racism was a key cause of death and destruction world wide.

My point was if he was going to denounce it, he should be doing so a bit harder.

Unless you think being soft spoken on racism is something that is okay. Or should we only show our outrage to Muslims and apply your ridiculous standards of self flagellation to them only?

Anyway how this relates to a non story (as stated by a conservative PM) is beyond me.

Edited October 5, 2014 by samran

[samran]

Burquas should be banned in all the Western World when they pose security issues.. That would include in my view all places where people gather, banks, shops, restaurants and all public transport. No doubt many more places. When a crime is committed, witnesses are usually able to give a description of the criminal. What information can you provide when the suspect is adorned in a burqua.

Let the wearers remember whose country it is...and then consider abiding by that countries rules!

.

Should ban all mosques too, only allow one mosque for one church in Saudi, when they allow ten churches then they can build ten mosques, note but in Australia only not USA.

Ah excellent, rocket scientist here wants to rip up section 116 of the constitution.

So much for abiding by the founding document of modern Australia.

Edited October 5, 2014 by samran

[Thorgal]

I find many aspects of all religions frankly stupid. Antagonist approach rarely works especially when you let your work become quoted by far right political parties. You become identified by them and no one else. Prefer the Richard Dawkins approach to the absurdity of religion, and even then someone like him can offend.

If you find "many aspects of all religions frankly stupid", you and he have a lot in common. I guess it bothers you that he is quoted by the right, although I don't see how he could stop that, even if he wanted to. You don't seem to be able to stop supporters of radical Islamic groups and obvious anti-Semites from "liking" your posts here on TV and I doubt if you agree with them about most things. Richard Dawkins sings his praises, by the way.

I too think all religions are stupid, fantasy and the product of a limited yet controlling mind, does this make me anti Semitic??

Only if you 'like' my post.

[nuananddon]

This PC sheet is a big cover up, it really sucks. If they want to live and work in the civilized world, adapt or leave, PERIOD!

[Thorgal]

Complaint over burqa mural...

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/complaint-lodged-over-burqa-mural-20101125-18967.html

[chooka]

What Australia needs is equality. If Muslims can walk around, drive a car and enter banks etc in disguise them give the same rights to all Australians to cover thier identity if they want. Don't divide the country and allow rights to only some.

[chooka]

This PC sheet is a big cover up, it really sucks. If they want to live and work in the civilized world, adapt or leave, PERIOD!

Like European settlers to Australia adapted to the way of life of the Aboriginal peoples, you mean?

As a person of aboriginal decent I am glad they didn't. We now have the wheel and many other wonderful things they brought to my country. Islam is totally frightening and a whole different thing. I don't want it in my country.

[neverdie]

What Australia needs is equality. If Muslims can walk around, drive a car and enter banks etc in disguise them give the same rights to all Australians to cover thier identity if they want. Don't divide the country and allow rights to only some.

What Australia needs is a 'dictator' and yes I'm putting my hand up for the job. Someone to gently guide the people