Rights group arranges lawyers for Myanmar men

Pattaya46 · October 5, 2014

Amazing Thailand. A couple of days after arresting the "alleged murderers" the tourists are back in greater numbers. Amazing Thailand

Why not? Logical: the probability that this kind of event happens

on this island as never been so low than now

yougivemebaby · October 5, 2014

Continued.....

Other claims propose (without any evidence) that the hoe was not the primary weapon. (LOL) Independent CSIs again with no forensics background think a tiny knife could have made these skull wounds. if you look closely at the skull fractures you will see it's impossible these were done with a sharp object. Look up (google) knife wounds to the skull. You will see there are no outlying marks associated with stabs to the skull. David does have wounds consistent with a blunt CURVED object. There are marks along his forehead associated to the massive blow to his skull. A knife can not make a curved semi circle! If they used the punch knife the wound would not be so wide either. ! Most knife wounds to the skull get stuck in the skull and need to be surgically removed. Look back at the crime scene photos and you can see what I am talking about. (Yes I have a background in forensics.)

Just because a phone looks similar on YouTube or Facebook doesn't mean some one has a similar phone or the police didn't put it on their reports. Where is this 'friend ' that said she had Hannah's phone ? Don't know?

Because it's hearsay. doesn't mean anything as far as evidence goes. Just a coincidence or more likely a troll.

The cigarette found near the scene with the alleged Burmese killers has their DNA on it which proves they were at the scene.

Them purchasing the same cigarettes earlier is further damning evidence.

I'm not saying there aren't holes or questions in the investigation but there are a LOT more holes in all these hearsay only accusations and people making these claims have no background with forensics. It would take an elaborate plan (from the very beginning of the investigation) to plant semen in the victim of the accused Burmese suspects.

I believe the Burmese will be properly represented in court and given every chance to prove their innocence. (Doubt it). So for the family's sake. Please let it rest with all these rumors. NONE of them are proven and only slowing the family's healing process.

Thanks

With your infinite wisdom could you please explain to me two things - 1) Motive, 2) How the two killed David. Give me your reconstruction of how these two managed to take him down and keep the girl quiet at the same time. Thanks. These two/three were dna tested in the following days. How come they did not have any bruises/cuts from a fatal encounter with a 24 yr 1.90m man. Hmmm
How do you know they do not have bruises/cuts on their bodies ? Have you seen them without a shirt on ? And they used a weapon to kill the victims with, David and Hannah hadno chance to defend themselves. They were killed defenseless and naked so how could they do anything to stop it.

Exactly. David and Hannah were likely having sex (as suspects even said). They probably had NO idea what hit them. It was so fast they had NO chance to even react. Or you bet your ass those little burmese would have marks on them.

I have a background in forensics. I studied it and also worked in a medical examiners office. But I am by no means an expert. But with my experience this is the likely scenario.

Killers sneak up on David and Hannah. (Remember David and Hannah were at bars the whole night before going to the beach though I can't confirm they were drunk because I didn't see their toxicology report). David is the first to be hit in the back of the head. He is their biggest threat and easiest target. With a powerful and swift blow(s). It wouldn't take a pro baseball player to knock someone out with that hoe. Knocked unconscious. As far as how Hannah didn't scream many scenarios could have happened after that. but I didn't see signs of defensive wounds on her arms (however I did not see any photos from the medical examiners office either to confirm this).

So most likely scenarios are.

1. David is hit so hard that his head is thrashed into Hannahs (if they were in the missionary position) and either knocks her out or stuns her. Before she has the chance to come to. The other(s) silence her by covering her mouth. (unlikely as she would have had time to scream or fight)

2. David gets hit once or twice then the weapon is immediately turned on Hannah before she has a chance to scream. (which seems more likely with the suspects size not wanting to take the chance that David can get up and defend himself) (most likely) It wouldn't take long to get a couple of powerful blows to the head without Hannah realizing what's going on or being so shocked she's stunned. Then hitting her enough to knock her out or stun her to where she can't fight back.

I'm saying this because there's no way one person could have dragged david out to the water alone. I don't think one of those little guys could have held hannah down alone unless she was so inebriated she would almost be unconscious. It would take at least two guys to pull David out into the water. So Hannah was either unconscious already (likely) or being held down and her mouth covered (I don't think that's likely though). SO they could hit him more and/or drag him into the water. There is a possibility there was a third person who was helping them but it doesn't seem like there is evidence as of now.

I believe Hannah was unconscious (or dead ) when the subsequent sexual assaults occurred. Again, I didn't see any defensive wounds or any marks consistent with holding her down. The suspects statements also verify they took turns with her and shared a cigarette. Not easy to smoke a cigarette with no hands if you're trying to fight someone to hold them down. After she was sexually assaulted, she was likely finished off with the hoe. It looks like the sharp end of the hoe! To kill her so as not to be able to identify the killers.

It's also possible that she was so shocked and she was too scared to scream. but I don't think this is likely. I think she would have had a good chance to fight off one guy or scream knowing how close she was to the resort.

Unfortunately motive is very primitive. Rape. The suspects admit they were drinking for several hours. Who knows what else they were on. However they were at the beach playing for many hours (not rare for Thai's) but they did this after a shift at their job. They had a LOT of energy. Maybe they took yaba? Not being of sound mind and seeing people have sex sparked some kind of primitive response to go and get it. Remember being drunk and making bad decisions? This was a REALLY bad non pre-meditated decision. It was opportunistic. They found some weapons and went and got it.

I don't think this is the first time, or would have been, the last time something similar (but not exact) has happened with these guys. Rape in Thailand or SE asia seems like it's almost an accepted part of their culture (watch Thai soaps - DISGUSTING AND AWFUL).

Again if there were any marks on the suspects, I didn't see any. But David likely didn't fight at all. Unfortunately I think is the same for Hannah. They swabbed about 2000 people for DNA but they only claim to have actually tested 200. Which was smart because that was their only lead at the time. (They should have swabbed everyone before leaving the island though!).

The other wounds from Davids face and chest which some claim to be by a knife is not true. All but one looks like post mortem wounds. It could have been that when David was dragged into the water, he hit the rocks and resulted in puncture wounds. It doesn't look like it was from a knife. There are also scrapes (consistent with a rock or dragging near the wounds too) Look at the photos closely. You can see it. Another CSI LA guy claims it the knife punctured his chest. If you look at the crime scene photos from liveleak you can see it's not very deep. DEEP but not knife deep. It's just from the photo angle you can't see it was just under the skin. Not a stab wound. If the waves or tide was going in or out (I didn't check the tide schedule) he would have been easily thrown against the rocks he was so close to. The wound on his chin is the only one that looks like he was alive.

I'm not willing to say this is exactly how it happened but I would bet it's close.

A very very tragic end to some young and innocent tourists lives. I feel bad for their friends and family. I hope they can someday heal from this and share their experience with others to help avoid these tragedy's.

Number 3 · October 5, 2014

Amazing Thailand. A couple of days after arresting the "alleged murderers" the tourists are back in greater numbers. Amazing Thailand

Its full moon party in 3 days in koh pha ngan, so lots of young backpackers begin their migration here.....

Shame on them for not boycotting this place is all I have to say.

denkiblue555 · October 5, 2014

Good news, everyone should have legal counsel when jailed guilty or not. However, this will not help those who cannot accept the overwhelming evidence against these two or those who want to believe it was the rich Thai kid (for no other reason than he is rich and Thai) that did it who was taking an exam at school in Bangkok and appeared on security cameras that day in Bangkok.

No doubt the lawyers will be able to collect new DNA samples from their clients and have it compared against the DNA results from the semen taken from the scene originally and sent to both Thai and Singapore labs. But again, doubt this will convince some of admitting their original suspicions were wrong.

While police may have done things wrong, there is no plausible way they could fake the DNA and expect to get away with it unless these two accused disappear from the planet and nobody can ever check their or their family's DNA ever again.

it dosnt matter who did it only that they are caught and theres no doubt... As for the kid your on about theres another son and hes not being mentioned but hes real and was on Island at the time. Its a reasonable request to ask the appropriate questions of all.

The whole point of a separate investigation is to verify DNA matching and such... what is your problem with an independent agent or country doing this pref the UK whos citizens it was that were butchered ?

a match is a match right ? shouldnt matter who does it the results will be the same and ThaIand can then stick two fingers up at everyone and regain their honour .. they have everything to gain by doing so if on the level ............so what is the big deal here ?

You are right and I agree it doesn't matter who did it as long as they are caught. However there is always doubt and why there is a thing called reasonable doubt. But funny you say it doesn't matter who did it but are worrying about the brother who there is absolutely no reasonable reason to believe he was involved.

You are right there is nothing wrong with a separate independent investigation... should be done in every case everywhere. However again being unreasonable as no country is going to have another country get involved in their ongoing criminal case because of internet posters don't want to believe something. An the UK has no authority nor would they attempt to try to have any over a Thai criminal case.

The DNA collected originaly from the scene was not only sent to both Thai and Singapore Labs where results were established. Now they have the two suspects whose DNA matches and whose DNA can be tested again as long as their bodies remain on this planet.

There is just no reasonable reason to believe these two are not guilty and it was a rich Thai person or any logical reason for the police to continue to look for suspects given the evidence against these two and the statements from the 3 of them together that night.

Yes sometimes it is hard to accept things but look at facts not emotion or what you wish. These two and their witness friends all have lawyers going to represent them who can easily get new DNA samples from them and will surely report any misdeeds by police to their suspects.

More power to those signing the petition. All for what makes people feel good but UK authorities are not going to have access to the suspects to pull their DNA as that is not the way it is done or pretty in any country in the world. Nor will the UK ever make such a request and according to the British Ambassador, he doesn't share your doubts.

At last an oasis of sanity amid these threads of crack pot conspiracy theorists and social media avengers. This is exactly what I wanted to say but could never have explained it so well.

These fools can sign and bombard the FCO with as many petitions as they like, but will never be given any credibility and will lead nowhere. The men in custody can have all the legal representation possible that is a good thing and so they should, but the conclusion will be the same, these are not the fall guys and will be found guilty as all the evidence against them suggests and proves.

The Royal Thai police have done an excellent job, they have investigated the said case with a professionalism unparalleled in Thailand`s criminal investigations history, especially taking into account they being up against the odds with the limited funding and resources available to them. I have no doubts that the opinions and attacks against the police by the do gooder and human rights fanatics have no influence on the ways the police are handling this investigation whatsoever, or in other words, the fanatics are shouting at deaf ears, both in regards to the RTP and the FCO and so are only left with platforms such as Thai visa and social networking sites to air their disdain of the Thai police and everything Thai.

Those who are using this case as a means to discredit Thailand and are determined to become involved one way or another and overpower these threads with their twisted views and warped conspiracy theories regarding the police, should go and start a revolution, because trust me on this one, you are only considered as a load of hot air blowing in the wind.

Wow!

LivinLOS · October 5, 2014

There is a new article in the locked Thailand news section here where the police are now saying the phone they found was John's, not Hannah's. So those who have been saying that the girl gave Hannah's phone to the police are probably correct.

I think the social media has driven the police to backing and filling on that story.

Or could it be that the social media has been grasping at straws for 3 weeks now .

Was it ever announced by the police that the found phone was Hannah's ?

It was always said announced as being ONE of the victim's phone, the ~~social media~~ conspiracy theorists added their own words to it.

I have typed this a few times.. and many others have typed this over and over.. Pol Gen Somyot said it was her phone.. Bangkok Post.. Clear quote.

scorecard · October 5, 2014

<removed BKK Post Link>
This article says that the accused have admitted to taking Hanna's phone and other valuables to be destroyed behind the house where they lived.
I seem to remember in very early statements by the police that they said the motive didn't seem to be theft as nothing had been taken from the crime scene.
Anyone have a link to that report?

Clearly states in the link you provide that Pol Gen Somyot said the phone belonged to one of the two victims. While it does also state the suspects say they took her phone ... obviously what they thought was her phone if reported correctly. Somyot also said it is a key piece of evidence. So clearly it will not be the same phone the police showed and collected the first day.

Bottom line is might have been confusion regarding this but the bottom line is nothing here to obsess about. They clearly have never claimed it was the same phone they collected and showed the first days and really bordering on crazy to suggest this or to believe such a scenario.

Why would they "think it was her phone" would they not remember who they removed it from?

You say "So clearly it will not be the same phone the police showed and collected the first day" - There's nothing clear about it.

This is the whole problem, what you think it clear others CLEARLY do not.

How you can be so clear on everything I really don't know. If everything was CLEAR there wouldn't be thousands of posts on this whole subject.

As for your bottom line, many of us are "obsessing" as you put it because we want to be SURE not just clear. alt=wai2.gif width=20 height=20>

Forget the phone boys!!

Whose semen inside his poor unfortunate woman is what counts - the fact that they found 2 DNA traces should be enough to clear the AC bar owners son and implicate the two Burmese as prime suspects.

Are you saying it's totally automatic that the rapists are the murderers?

LivinLOS · October 5, 2014

Anyone else read the BP newspaper today where it said the phone found outside the suspect's home was David Miller's?

This is a first.

Actually the police said from the get go the phone belonged to one of the victims. Never said Hannah's especially not the same one they openly showed the collected on the first day.

False.. But we cant link to the BP from here.

LivinLOS · October 5, 2014

Anyone else read the BP newspaper today where it said the phone found outside the suspect's home was David Miller's?

This is a first.

Actually the police said from the get go the phone belonged to one of the victims. Never said Hannah's especially not the same one they openly showed the collected on the first day.

not true
100% True --- people only speculated it was Hannah's they were talking about and the further speculated they were trying to say it was the same phone police displayed and collected in the first days. I have been reminding people since the whole facebook forensic folks started this that the police NEVER said it was her phone.

Just right click and google search the following..

Pol Gen Somyot said Friday that investigators Thursday night found Witheridge's mobile phone near Wyn's living quarters.

biplanebluey · October 5, 2014

Come on everyone on TV .. if you want to be sure about this then we need 10,000 sigs to move on it to petition the British Embassy and British government for another independent investigation, all people want is real justice and closure for David and Hannahs families, that means 100% without doubt .... get enough voices and the UK gov will have to open an investigation if they havnt already behind closed doors.

We can make a difference for once, all it takes are for good people to do something....

https://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller#share

Please Moderators im asking you on behalf of many do the right thing and let this link stay.

Sorry but I do not know what to do------ I have a form on a page on my computer but how do I get it with a signature to you------ Dougal

SICHONSTEVE · October 5, 2014

No, I think she was raped whilst her boyfriend sat there and watched them and then they lay their naked and some other people came along shortly after and murdered them with a hoe just for the sake of it!!!

What sort of a stupid question is that??

LivinLOS · October 5, 2014

You do realize the word for his, him, she, her, they can all be the same in Thai,don't you? People made speculations but very clear police never said the phone was hers and regardless people never considered she might have two as do many visitors ... this was just more unsubstantiated fodder for the conspiracy folks stated as fact that never was ... as now appears to be confirmed.

They used her name.. Explicitly.

Now they are changing the story... Again..

BKK Blues Brother · October 5, 2014

Come on everyone on TV .. if you want to be sure about this then we need 10,000 sigs to move on it to petition the British Embassy and British government for another independent investigation, all people want is real justice and closure for David and Hannahs families, that means 100% without doubt .... get enough voices and the UK gov will have to open an investigation if they havnt already behind closed doors.

We can make a difference for once, all it takes are for good people to do something....

https://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller#share

Please Moderators im asking you on behalf of many do the right thing and let this link stay.

Please sign !!!

over 14,000 now in less than 48 hrs

Only 850 more signatures needed

LivinLOS · October 5, 2014

Bear in mind these two boys are under five feet and half David's size, it seems improbable to any reasonable person that they committed both of the murders.

Where in the world did you get they were under five feet and even if they were 4 feet are you suggesting David was 8 feet?

Did you miss the fact they attacked him from behind and had weapon(s).

Do you have any vested interest in Tourism here in Thiland? For the second time of asking.

Have you seen the re-enactment scene or were you there? It is clear that the boys (who are dwarfed by the RTP) were directed throughout by them, which is against Thai police procedure. There are reports that a hoe and a blunt instrument were used. How do you explain the deep cuts on David's person?

The scenario you are trying to support is flawed, as has been discussed at length on at least two forums, and this view is supported by the head of a national NGO who also suspects the Burmese are innocent.

More likely is the McAnna version that there were several persons on the beach, two of whom were Thai (the ones who threatened him a week later, as confirmed by the 7-eleven staff). For whatever reason, loss of face, revenge etc, an attack began on him and the victims. He escaped with two witnesses confirming he was covered in blood, one of whom cleaned him up.

Of course I could be wrong, as could you. Like yourself, I'm hoping justice will prevail for the family of Hannah and David.

You want to claim that a hoe doesn't make deep cuts on ones body ?

Deep slashing ones yes..

Little pointed incision ones ?? No..

SICHONSTEVE · October 5, 2014

Come on everyone on TV .. if you want to be sure about this then we need 10,000 sigs to move on it to petition the British Embassy and British government for another independent investigation, all people want is real justice and closure for David and Hannahs families, that means 100% without doubt .... get enough voices and the UK gov will have to open an investigation if they havnt already behind closed doors.

We can make a difference for once, all it takes are for good people to do something....

https://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller#share

Please Moderators im asking you on behalf of many do the right thing and let this link stay.

Please sign !!!

over 14,000 now in less than 48 hrs

Only 850 more signatures needed

I deem myself to be a good person but I'm not signing some stupid and irrelevant petition!!

LivinLOS · October 5, 2014

The statement police issued first was #Witheridges# phone was found near near the suspects home.

Look for the link yourself, ylou seem to be enjoyiong your xenophobic rants.

Not going to look up what doesn't exist.

And yet it ohh so clearly does..

But at least it shows your clear closed minded bias for all others to see..

JohnThailandJohn · October 5, 2014

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Forget the phone boys!!

Whose semen inside his poor unfortunate woman is what counts - the fact that they found 2 DNA traces should be enough to clear the AC bar owners son and implicate the two Burmese as prime suspects.

Are you saying it's totally automatic that the rapists are the murderers?

Absolutely shocking the level people are going to in order to not accept what clearly seems to be a reality of these suspects guilt. They got lawyers now, if they didn't do they will take a swab of their DNA and compare it with those from the scene booked into Sinagpore. If it doesn't match then I guess they should drop the rape charges and then according to your thinking the police should just look at them for the murders. s Of course if they did that you'd day the police insane.

Please get real, no jury in the world is not going to convict the two of murder if it is their DNA semen in the victim. You have to get into some real far fetched scenarios to not have these guys be the killers.

Edit: And of course the far fetched scenario must involve the son of a rich Thai

Edited October 5, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

6NS · October 5, 2014

From your smugness I can see you KNOW there will be a SWITCHED match because it's obvious who you work for.

I'm sure your proud of yourself.

<removed BKK Post Link>
This article says that the accused have admitted to taking Hanna's phone and other valuables to be destroyed behind the house where they lived.
I seem to remember in very early statements by the police that they said the motive didn't seem to be theft as nothing had been taken from the crime scene.
Anyone have a link to that report?

Clearly states in the link you provide that Pol Gen Somyot said the phone belonged to one of the two victims. While it does also state the suspects say they took her phone ... obviously what they thought was her phone if reported correctly. Somyot also said it is a key piece of evidence. So clearly it will not be the same phone the police showed and collected the first day.

Bottom line is might have been confusion regarding this but the bottom line is nothing here to obsess about. They clearly have never claimed it was the same phone they collected and showed the first days and really bordering on crazy to suggest this or to believe such a scenario.

Why would they "think it was her phone" would they not remember who they removed it from?

You say "So clearly it will not be the same phone the police showed and collected the first day" - There's nothing clear about it.

This is the whole problem, what you think it clear others CLEARLY do not.

How you can be so clear on everything I really don't know. If everything was CLEAR there wouldn't be thousands of posts on this whole subject.

As for your bottom line, many of us are "obsessing" as you put it because we want to be SURE not just clear.

Forget the phone boys!!

Whose semen inside his poor unfortunate woman is what counts - the fact that they found 2 DNA traces should be enough to clear the AC bar owners son and implicate the two Burmese as prime suspects.

JohnThailandJohn · October 5, 2014

The statement police issued first was #Witheridges# phone was found near near the suspects home.

Look for the link yourself, ylou seem to be enjoyiong your xenophobic rants.

Not going to look up what doesn't exist.

And yet it ohh so clearly does..

But at least it shows your clear closed minded bias for all others to see..

I shared too many links previously showing the police did not say it was her phone to play this game. As the Bank Post wrote today ... Police have state it was his phone. They also say the suspects say they took her phone. A simple confusion added to the fact that a Thai word can mean him, her, he, hers she his or even they. The statement by police never included her name. And it is just beyond stupid to believe that the Thai police who showed her phone off to the press during the first day investigating would then go plant that same phone at the suspects.

Edited October 5, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

Tazwa · October 5, 2014

I'm hopping off the CSI LA bandwagon and admit to being a part of the frenzy for a while.

Yougivemebaby has stated pretty much what my instincts told me the very first time I read the story of the murders.

How CSI LA can ask, "why David has no cloths on?" and speculate that that the killers had forensics knowledge is sounding desperate.

When people have sex, they often get their clothes off- pretty simple. The condom found at the scene was most likely David's and the lack of DNA on the inside means his skin cells weren't traced/picked up in the testing process. Hannah's were able to be picked up, presumably there were more of them.

The phones- in my mind, that's been resolved.

I now believe that even Sean McAnna doesn't even know whether he was coming or going that night due whatever substances he indulges in. He listened to rumours, blatantly spread them and got himself offside with the locals.

The wounds on David still baffle me. Of course the hoe's sharp corners could inflict them but I would have thought the easiest way to swing a hoe down on someone would be with the leading edge first - I'd expect the wounds to be broader.

So these are just my thoughts. I'm still keeping an open mind and still have some things I'd like to see clarified. I encourage others to keep the questioning going if you feel something isn't right.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Tazwa

lavender19 · October 5, 2014

Come on everyone on TV .. if you want to be sure about this then we need 10,000 sigs to move on it to petition the British Embassy and British government for another independent investigation, all people want is real justice and closure for David and Hannahs families, that means 100% without doubt .... get enough voices and the UK gov will have to open an investigation if they havnt already behind closed doors.

We can make a difference for once, all it takes are for good people to do something....

https://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller#share

Please Moderators im asking you on behalf of many do the right thing and let this link stay.

Over 14,000 signatures now . keep it going

JohnThailandJohn · October 5, 2014

You do realize the word for his, him, she, her, they can all be the same in Thai,don't you? People made speculations but very clear police never said the phone was hers and regardless people never considered she might have two as do many visitors ... this was just more unsubstantiated fodder for the conspiracy folks stated as fact that never was ... as now appears to be confirmed.

They used her name.. Explicitly.

Now they are changing the story... Again..

No they didn't ... some press reports did but that is not what police said and many other reports reported the translation as it was intended.

This is just getting to be shear desperateness looking for imperfection in an imperfect world and then crying conspiracy theory.

Edited October 5, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

stephen terry · October 5, 2014

Exactly. David and Hannah were likely having sex (as suspects even said). They probably had NO idea what hit them. It was so fast they had NO chance to even react. Or you bet your ass those little burmese would have marks on them.

With your infinite wisdom could you please explain to me two things - 1) Motive, 2) How the two killed David. Give me your reconstruction of how these two managed to take him down and keep the girl quiet at the same time. Thanks. These two/three were dna tested in the following days. How come they did not have any bruises/cuts from a fatal encounter with a 24 yr 1.90m man. Hmmm

How do you know they do not have bruises/cuts on their bodies ? Have you seen them without a shirt on ? And they used a weapon to kill the victims with, David and Hannah hadno chance to defend themselves. They were killed defenseless and naked so how could they do anything to stop it.