Koh Tao: British tourist murder suspects confess to human rights commissioner

[mattk1]

It doesn't matter what I read about this case, I don't believe anything they say..

[TheCruncher]

.....even though a human rights group has already agreed to provide lawyers.

'agreed to provide' is not synonymous with 'been allowed to provide.' A Human rights comissioner is part of Thai officialdom, so how trusted can his statement be? Did he twist words? How willing is he to sinc his statements with other Thai officials who achingly want that sort of statement?

If the Burmese suspects didn't do it, which they claimed yesterday, then it looks as though there are some deep reasons why the Burmese may continue to be vacillating in what they say. It's not outlandish if Thai interrogators had threatened to hunt down and kill their entire family if they didn't toe the line. Stranger things have happened in these sorts of scenarios.

The torture allegations and such are actually smoke screens to try and keep the media (and others) from looking at the bigger issues: That bona fide suspects have been let off the hook, evidence has been tampered with, misinterpreted, and flat-out missed. Along with that, evidence has been mishandled and very likely stifled if it doesn't fit with the frame-up scenario which Thai officialdom dearly wants everyone to believe. Just the mistakes regarding the murder weapons would be enough, by themselves, to have any objective judge throw the whole case out.

The Sunday Nation October 5, 2014 1:00 am

A team of lawyers has been sent to help the two migrant Myanmar workers being charged with murdering two British tourists and raping one of them on Koh Tao, a prominent activist for the rights of migrant workers said yesterday.

The move came amid concerns that the arrested men may not be the real culprits.

Andy Hall, the activist for the rights of migrant workers in Thailand, tweeted yesterday that he was sending a team of lawyers to see the two Myanmar workers charged.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Rights-group-arranges-lawyers-for-Myanmar-men-30244775.html

Let us know if/when they've been ALLOWED unfettered access to the defendents in a standard lawyer-client scenario. Also, suspect #3 is being kept incognito. Obvious reason: Thai officialdom doesn't want him to be aware of any legal rights. Also, he's been scared/beaten in to giving the type of 'evidence' officialdom wants. They don't want any interference with their frame-up.

Andy Hall @Atomicalandy · 13h 13 hours ago

Following meetings with 3 migrants (2 accused/1 protective custody), police, prosecutors & community our mission has arrived back to Bangkok

[mrtoad]

JTJ posting history is interesting, he appears to be an apologist for most things, a lot of similar posts in the thread below.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/759858-american-falls-to-his-death-from-5fl-of-bangkoks-nana-hotel/page-5

[NeverSure]

Well a statement like that, anywhere else in the world would probably bring an instant mistrial.

Pure heresay

I'm sorry, but that isn't hearsay. The speaker had "personal knowledge" of what the suspects said. Even if he was lying, he had personal knowledge of it.

Hearsay is when neither the speaker nor the hearer has personal knowledge. Call it gossip. "I heard that Susan said that Joan said that..." That is hearsay. Neither Susan nor Joan had personal knowledge of the fact that the statement was even made. They didn't witness the statement being made. Pure hearsay.

Cheers

Edited October 8, 2014 by NeverSure

[TheCruncher]

JTJ posting history is interesting, he appears to be an apologist for most things, a lot of similar posts in the thread below.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/759858-american-falls-to-his-death-from-5fl-of-bangkoks-nana-hotel/page-5

Lot of the same conspiracy theorist as in this thread overthere also.

Has it been proven yet that JTJ was wrong ?

[NeverSure]

Well a statement like that, anywhere else in the world would probably bring an instant mistrial.

Pure heresay

Hearsay only applies to testimony in court. Nowhere that I am aware would there be a mistrial because somebody freely is reporting to the press what the suspects freely told them. Not to mention this case is going to be heard in front of judges and not a novice public jury who could be influenced by media reports.

It wasn't hearsay. Not at all. Even officials gathering evidence can't accept hearsay.

[balo]

They drank beer and wine must of been well paid migrants as wine is very expensive in the Kingdom I still have my doubts about these two workers and where is the murder weapon that killed David and if my memory is correct there we're three separate DNAs but we only have two suspects.

They worked in a bar ! Don't you think wine woild have been easily available ? Besides they had a job, and a salary.

[ozsamurai]

Koh Tao pair claim they were tortured before confessing

Since linking BPost is not allowed, go check it out yourself..

Oz

[xygote]

JTJ posting history is interesting, he appears to be an apologist for most things, a lot of similar posts in the thread below.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/759858-american-falls-to-his-death-from-5fl-of-bangkoks-nana-hotel/page-5

I get the impression that JTJ is a police plant. Maybe one of those self-important, pretty useless Tourist Police farang wannabes?

[whitfield]

Please stop with the independent DNA tests as we all know that is not the way things are done. Instead they will have a biased test run by their legal team who are going to do everything in their power to benefit their clients. This is the way legal procedures work in countries not turning to another country to appease public doubts or conspiracy nuts.

Besides, an independent DNA test would simply be met with folks saying Thais contaminated or gave wrong samples for testing.

To how many people and how many times must these two say they are guilty before people believe them?

Why stop an independent DNA test. You take three sets together with a UK, Thai and an independent rep all present. All three take away their tests and report their findings. If they find no trace of semen on the body of the deceased then we know it has been tampered with. Provided all 3 agree that the Burmese duo are inextricably linked with the murder then everyone goes away content that justice has been seen to be done.

So far you have crapped on all the people who have their doubts about the case. Who tested the DNA? How were the confessions obtained? Why did the Police need to direct the re-enactment as the suspects clearly had no idea how to do it? Why were some people excused DNA testing? What explains the extremely dodgy CCTV frame with the date stamp in two different colours that appears to show one of the sons in Bangkok? The Police have retracted their statement that it was Hannah's phone they found and now say it was David's, have we seen the phone so that we can all be sure that it was his? Where is Sean? Where is the knife that was used to kill David? Where are the witnesses to the fact that there was an altercation in the bar? Was sex really the motive for this brutal murder and disfigurement really the work of two migrant workers who were singing on the beach who just happened to decide out of the blue to go on an incredibly violent killing spree? They had two weeks to leave the island and didn't, why not?

All I can say JTJ is thank God you're not their lawyer. You seem so keen to support the RTP in this case as you've been all over TV like a rash on every forum that mentions it. I'm not a conspiracy theorist and I have a completely open mind, but because of that I have grave doubts about the due process we are witnessing. I'm sure that I am not alone.

[minikev]

Facts being ignored, like Sean as a key witness (or perhaps even accessory to murder) not being detained, the two men who chased and threatened Sean, the 8 or 9 push dagger wounds on David's head and neck, the fact that the Burmese guys needed to be told where to stand and what exactly to do during the reenactment as well as the fact that the accused do not describe a fist/knife fight with David before he was drowned, no explanations about how Hannah would be held quiet while David is being slaughtered, etc. should wake up not only this human rights commissioner, but the whole world.

What happens? Nothing! A petition, yeah... That petition will end up in a drawer somewhere of a useless and corrupt official and that's the end to it. Let's face it: Unless the parents speak up, nothing will change and they will fry those Burma kids alive.

Now let me say this: If any author would write a crime novel with the official RTP story being his story line while making the mistake of leaving all those other (above mentioned and more) question marks open, he would not sell one single book and critics would rip the author apart in mid air - he sure would never sell a book ever again and would be a subject to endless ridicule amongst the worldwide community of book authors and publishers. Think about it!

The pungent stench of this f#%&ed up invstigation make my eyes water and makes me lose faith in humanity.

You can't just state stuff as fact or facts being ignored because you believe them to be true.

I also have my own questions about this case and I don't think it's over yet.

You state as a fact that David has push dagger wounds when the pathologist states should they have been push dagger wounds there would have been marking to the bone below and there wasn't. I'm sure the pathologist is better qualified to make this statement and I'm sure he is aware that there will have been someone checking when David was sent home.

Really there are so many people on here twisting what is been said to suit their own idea of what happened. We only have the information supplied to us by the police and some from the media (which has not always been consistent)

One other point please leave the parents alone!! They are grieving.

How do YOU know there were no marks onthe bone - can you provide a link to corroners report and show proof that it was done fairly? How do you know there should be marks to the bone - people dont have bones under their jaw on this planet - maybe they do on yours!!

Wow! a full personal attack for stating the official pathologist stated these wounds were not the same as wounds from a blade. As I stated in my earlier post I'm sure his results will be scrutinized and I'm sure he is aware of that.

So it's OK for us to go along with catweazels theory which is taken from CSI la facebook but we should ignore the official pathologist as we were not present when he did his work.

I also saw the way Sean's wounds look very similar and jumped to the conclusion that perhaps from the same weapon. Look closer bruising around David's wounds is far more widespread which when you listen to the pathologist's report make sense as the skin splitting with a blunt instrument.

It's obvious the blade fits better with your own theory so believe what you will.

[Dogmatix]

They are REALLY trying hard, aren't they? The suspects drank beer and wine. Oh, thank god for that solid evidence of brutal murder and rape.

It's like the reports of the American who "ran up, and then fall down" from the hotel in Nana a few weeks back.

These people are extremely simple. My 5 year-old grandson can see through this.

What type of wine did they drink? Was is a 1982 Château Rothschild Lafite? It is well known that Burmese illegal immigrants are partial to a decent claret. Let's see the evidence that they drank wine. It is already confirmed that they are LM smokers which is another expensive taste.

[airconsult]

Why is it in these threads that I see people saying again and again that "the DNA test result will prove/disprove it"?

It's a lot more complicated than that - forensic DNA testing is a complicated and demanding exercise, open to errors at every stage. To start with - back in 2007, none of the 6 DNA testing labs in BKK were internationally certified for forensic DNA work. (Mahidol University study)

http://www.forensic.sc.mahidol.ac.th/proceeding/49_Samart.pdf

While I certainly hope that has been fixed, even if it has there's immense hurdles to verify the validity - mistakes in process, contamination, misfiling and interpretation happen all the time in the UK, US, Aust, NZ (see second link from law commission review Aust).

http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/44-criminal-proceedings/reliability-dna-evidence

I don't know whether they have caught the right guys or not - that's up to the court to determine - but I think people should be aware of the possible problems involved.

Also - different statistical methods of presentation show different probabilities. eg. If a lab says it is a 99.99% match - that is 1 in 100,000 only - again I hope lawyers and the court pay attention to these tricks. (That's why proximity and opportunity must be shown as well)

Edited October 8, 2014 by airconsult

[Kru Baa]

Oh yeah that's right. You can't mix beer and whine or you will rape and murder someone for sure. The last time I mixed the two I went out with my garden hoe and raped and murdered all night long. What a hangover that was.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Kru Baa

[TheCruncher]

Koh Tao pair claim they were tortured before confessing

Since linking BPost is not allowed, go check it out yourself..

Oz

On Guantanamo Bay all prisoners are tortured before confessing, and their rights are abused constantly.

Strange that most of you on here endorse that, while this is a similar situation.

[Sviss Geez]

Well a statement like that, anywhere else in the world would probably bring an instant mistrial.

Pure heresay

The case hasn't gone to court yet.

[Kru Baa]

A Thai human rights commissioner? Oh yeah I'm sure he's impartial.

[BMJ]

Being scared of their interpreter says he is working for the police and not just someone who's sole job is to translate there language. If you can't trust your interpreter he may put words in your mouth which you had no intention to say! If it is true

that the interpreter is working with the police then I would question anything they have said. I'm not saying there innocent

but there are a lot of questions that have not been answered! I pray they get a fair trial! And if truly are guilty are punished severely!

[JohnThailandJohn]

Please stop with the independent DNA tests as we all know that is not the way things are done. Instead they will have a biased test run by their legal team who are going to do everything in their power to benefit their clients. This is the way legal procedures work in countries not turning to another country to appease public doubts or conspiracy nuts.

Besides, an independent DNA test would simply be met with folks saying Thais contaminated or gave wrong samples for testing.

To how many people and how many times must these two say they are guilty before people believe them?

Why stop an independent DNA test. You take three sets together with a UK, Thai and an independent rep all present. All three take away their tests and report their findings. If they find no trace of semen on the body of the deceased then we know it has been tampered with. Provided all 3 agree that the Burmese duo are inextricably linked with the murder then everyone goes away content that justice has been seen to be done.

So far you have crapped on all the people who have their doubts about the case. Who tested the DNA? How were the confessions obtained? Why did the Police need to direct the re-enactment as the suspects clearly had no idea how to do it? Why were some people excused DNA testing? What explains the extremely dodgy CCTV frame with the date stamp in two different colours that appears to show one of the sons in Bangkok? The Police have retracted their statement that it was Hannah's phone they found and now say it was David's, have we seen the phone so that we can all be sure that it was his? Where is Sean? Where is the knife that was used to kill David? Where are the witnesses to the fact that there was an altercation in the bar? Was sex really the motive for this brutal murder and disfigurement really the work of two migrant workers who were singing on the beach who just happened to decide out of the blue to go on an incredibly violent killing spree? They had two weeks to leave the island and didn't, why not?

All I can say JTJ is thank God you're not their lawyer. You seem so keen to support the RTP in this case as you've been all over TV like a rash on every forum that mentions it. I'm not a conspiracy theorist and I have a completely open mind, but because of that I have grave doubts about the due process we are witnessing. I'm sure that I am not alone.

Who tested the DNA?

Assume you mean matched ... 3 Universities were doing the matching for police

How were the confessions obtained?

Possibly with some force or threats. But clearly not too severe as they appeared fine at the reenactment.

Why did the Police need to direct the re-enactment as the suspects clearly had no idea how to do it?

They didn't. Lots of reporters there and none claim such a thing.

Why were some people excused DNA testing?

Because they were not suspects -- including those not on the island at the time of the murders

What explains the extremely dodgy CCTV frame with the date stamp in two different colours that appears to show one of the sons in Bangkok?

Cheap video cams where you are only considering pictures of frames of the video that appeared in the press

The Police have retracted their statement that it was Hannah's phone they found and now say it was David's, have we seen the phone so that we can all be sure that it was his?

No they didn't. They never claimed it was the same phone they showed reporters early in the investigation. At the same time some reports said it was her phone the other people quoted police as saying one of the suspects. Police just simply cleared up the conspiracy non-sense by stating unequivocally it was his phone. Yes there are pictures of the phone retrieved while they were retrieving it.

Where is Sean?

Back home.

Where is the knife that was used to kill David?

Haven't seen an autopsy report saying a knife was used, have you?

Where are the witnesses to the fact that there was an altercation in the bar?

Likely they don;t exist

Was sex really the motive for this brutal murder and disfigurement really the work of two migrant workers who were singing on the beach who just happened to decide out of the blue to go on an incredibly violent killing spree?

That certainly seems to be the case given their statements to police, lawyers, embassy officials and human rights workers as well as the fact they found their semen at the crime scene.

They had two weeks to leave the island and didn't, why not?

It would seem suspicious and police were "discouraging" immigrants from leaving. There buddy getting caught leaving and subsequent interrogation appears to be what led police to these two.

As for your 3-way testing or whatever, this is up to their lawyers. The case is not being tried in the media for the public, it is going to be tried in court.

If I was tasked with being their lawyer, I certainly would not go for an innocent verdict given they are admitting their guilt but rather look for ways to avoid the death penalty as the suspects are already amaturely trying to do by saying they were drunk and didn;t mean to kill.

[gemini81]

So whose sperm was in the condom?

They're trying to divert our attention. These 'suspects' should say nothing until an attorney is arranged.

[mrtoad]

Koh Tao pair claim they were tortured before confessing

Since linking BPost is not allowed, go check it out yourself..

Oz

On Guantanamo Bay all prisoners are tortured before confessing, and their rights are abused constantly.

Strange that most of you on here endorse that, while this is a similar situation.

I think you will find the majority of people do not endorse torture, hence the reason as to why the governments involved are so keen to keep it a secret.

[Pundi6446]

If they hadn't done that, their families more then likely would have been killed, the cops here are trying very hard to make all this go away aren't they

[Sviss Geez]

I have little doubt police may have roughed these guys up or at minimum deprived them of some of their right but have nearly no doubt they have the right guys. Also have no doubt if these suspects were Thai (especially rich) that many of the posters outraged over the abuse of their rights would be screaming for more of their blood.

Police shouldn't abuse any suspects or anyone even rapist murderers but the evidence is just beyond overwhelming against these guys and their DNA samples can be got again by these lawyers and human rights people they confessed and then compared to the DNA results from the crime scene.

The way this is going to go down seems fairly predictable ..... these guys are going to please guilty and do everything in their power to downplay how monstrous their behavior was by saying they were drunk, didn't mean to kill them and so on in hopes of not receiving the death penalty

Independent investigation including DNA testing is the only way this mess is going to be resolved. There is too much doubt.

Isn't that what a court is for?

[Dogmatix]

The petition is in the right direction, as is the CSI LA Fb page which he now says he will clean up and translate relative passages to English.

What would make a huge difference though would be, if Hannah and David's parents could bring themselves to petition the British government for an independent British investigation directly through their MPs.

Kirsty Jones' mother is an incredibly courageous soul who has never given up fighting for justice for her daughter who was raped murdered in Chiang Mai, most likely by a Thai policeman. She has managed to get Welsh police to fly out to Thailand to investigate more than once. Even though they have been repeatedly stone walled by Thai police, who have been given carte blanche by successive Thai governments to do whatever they feel like, she still hasn't given up. With this type attitude, one day someone will be successful in exposing police corruption in covering up rape and murder cases of British tourists. That will be a victory for all those who have died and not received justice and will make Thailand a safer place for all foreign tourists.

Personally I don't deny the possibility that the two suspects might be guilty. If so, they still deserve a fair trail based on credible investigation to remove all doubt of their guilt. Even if they are guilty, the investigation appears to have failed utterly to provide a credible account of what actually happened and leaves open a very possibility that the rape and murders were work of more than two men. That leaves a very highly possibility that at least one murderer, if not more, are still at large and might strike again.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Dogmatix

[jacky54]

They drank beer and wine must of been well paid migrants as wine is very expensive in the Kingdom I still have my doubts about these two workers and where is the murder weapon that killed David and if my memory is correct there we're three separate DNAs but we only have two suspects.

They worked in a bar ! Don't you think wine woild have been easily available ? Besides they had a job, and a salary.

Are you accusing them of stealing as well? low paid jobs do not pay for wine. Every time I have offered wine to a Thai they never want it, Burmese might be different, but I doubt it.

[canuckamuck]

You can't just state stuff as fact or facts being ignored because you believe them to be true.

I also have my own questions about this case and I don't think it's over yet.

You state as a fact that David has push dagger wounds when the pathologist states should they have been push dagger wounds there would have been marking to the bone below and there wasn't. I'm sure the pathologist is better qualified to make this statement and I'm sure he is aware that there will have been someone checking when David was sent home.

Really there are so many people on here twisting what is been said to suit their own idea of what happened. We only have the information supplied to us by the police and some from the media (which has not always been consistent)

One other point please leave the parents alone!! They are grieving.

How do YOU know there were no marks onthe bone - can you provide a link to corroners report and show proof that it was done fairly? How do you know there should be marks to the bone - people dont have bones under their jaw on this planet - maybe they do on yours!!

Wow! a full personal attack for stating the official pathologist stated these wounds were not the same as wounds from a blade. As I stated in my earlier post I'm sure his results will be scrutinized and I'm sure he is aware of that.

So it's OK for us to go along with catweazels theory which is taken from CSI la facebook but we should ignore the official pathologist as we were not present when he did his work.

I also saw the way Sean's wounds look very similar and jumped to the conclusion that perhaps from the same weapon. Look closer bruising around David's wounds is far more widespread which when you listen to the pathologist's report make sense as the skin splitting with a blunt instrument.

It's obvious the blade fits better with your own theory so believe what you will.

Please show link for pathology report showing no marks on the bones.

How does one hit someone one the jaw with a hoe with enough force to split the skin, but does not break the jaw?

[NeverSure]

Would everyone please consider ignoring trolls? They live to get attention.

To put someone one ignore, click the down arrow just to the right of your name, upper-right of the page. There is a menu item "Manage ignore preferences. Simply type or past the troll's name and check all of the boxes and click Save. He's gone along with his desired attention.

Trolls are attention whores who disrupt threads.

[bannork]

They drank beer and wine must of been well paid migrants as wine is very expensive in the Kingdom I still have my doubts about these two workers and where is the murder weapon that killed David and if my memory is correct there we're three separate DNAs but we only have two suspects.

They worked in a bar ! Don't you think wine woild have been easily available ? Besides they had a job, and a salary.

Are you accusing them of stealing as well? low paid jobs do not pay for wine. Every time I have offered wine to a Thai they never want it, Burmese might be different, but I doubt it.

They pay for rice wine, Sator, 35 baht a bottle in 7-11.

[balo]

They drank beer and wine must of been well paid migrants as wine is very expensive in the Kingdom I still have my doubts about these two workers and where is the murder weapon that killed David and if my memory is correct there we're three separate DNAs but we only have two suspects.

They worked in a bar ! Don't you think wine woild have been easily available ? Besides they had a job, and a salary.

Are you accusing them of stealing as well? low paid jobs do not pay for wine. Every time I have offered wine to a Thai they never want it, Burmese might be different, but I doubt it.

Ever heard of rice wine ? You can buy the bottles in 7 eleven for 100 baht for 750 ml . I don't think the Burmese workers ever experienced drinking imported red wine unless someone offered it to them for free. Edited October 8, 2014 by balo

[joecoolfrog]

Well the only thing I am now certain of is that one particular TV member has some serious issues.