UK MPs to vote on recognising Palestine as a state

[Ulysses G.]

Hamas has changed.

This has to be the biggest lie I have ever read on this forum.

The most blatant one for sure.

[shariq607]

Even the current israeli army chief recently has praised Hamas.

Quote

Benny Gantz, the IDF Chief of Staff

We must be honest and say that we fought against brave men, Gantz said during a discussion with IDF soldiers, Channel 2 News reported.

To run up and try to put an explosive charge upon a tank is the act of courageous people.

In a recent interview with Israeli daily Ma'ariv, Mr Gantz advocated aid for Gazans in order to make the ceasefire with Israel more long lasting.

"The people there need to live, and they are caught between Egypt on one side, us on another side and the sea with a six mile fishing zone on the other side."

"At the end of the day, 1.8 million Palestinians live there, and the quiet is also dependent on the trend of creating economic hope there", he said.

Source : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/11161445/Israeli-army-chief-praises-courageous-Hamas-fighters.html

Edited October 14, 2014 by shariq607

[MJP]

Even the current israeli army chief recently has praised Hamas.

Quote

Benny Gantz, the IDF Chief of Staff

We must be honest and say that we fought against brave men, Gantz said during a discussion with IDF soldiers, Channel 2 News reported.

To run up and try to put an explosive charge upon a tank is the act of courageous people.

In a recent interview with Israeli daily Ma'ariv, Mr Gantz advocated aid for Gazans in order to make the ceasefire with Israel more long lasting.

"The people there need to live, and they are caught between Egypt on one side, us on another side and the sea with a six mile fishing zone on the other side."

"At the end of the day, 1.8 million Palestinians live there, and the quiet is also dependent on the trend of creating economic hope there", he said.

Source : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/11161445/Israeli-army-chief-praises-courageous-Hamas-fighters.html

Good news. Olive branches. World needs more of them.

[Chicog]

Wouldn't be surprised if Netanyahu replaces him.

[Jay Sata]

Let us just hope these tiny steps from the UK and Sweden help to push the issue to the point where Israel has to face the truth and no longer claims to want a two state solution while grabbing more land.

The other side of the fence is to have one multi religious nation from the West Bank to the Sea.

[Jingthing]

Let us just hope these tiny steps from the UK and Sweden help to push the issue to the point where Israel has to face the truth and no longer claims to want a two state solution while grabbing more land.

The other side of the fence is to have one multi religious nation from the West Bank to the Sea.

That's an vicious distortion. If Hamas ever wins, millions of Jews get pushed into the sea as per their genocidal charter. Progressives push this ridiculous fantasy that Hamas wants peace and coexistence with Jews. That's a huge lie but happily the vast majority of Israelis know better.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Jingthing

[coma]

Late Monday British MPs voted 274 to 12 for a non-binding motion to "recognise the state of Palestine alongside the state of Israel as a contribution to securing a negotiated two-state solution".

Israel has warned that a vote by the British parliament in favour of recognising a Palestinian state risks undermining the prospects for peace.

Hahaha. Yeah right. The only ones undermining the prospects of peace is Netanyahu and his warmongers.

Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/10/14/08/41/british-mps-vote-to-recognise-palestine#5MtWwUP7CDvOT3zU.99

[Scott]

Off-topic post removed.

[dexterm]

Britain’s ambassador to Israel, Matthew Gould, warns Israelis in a radio interview that they are losing support in the UK.

He said. “Israel lost support after this summer’s conflict, and after the series of announcements on settlements. This parliamentary vote is a sign of the way the wind is blowing, and will continue to blow without any progress towards peace.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-losing-support-in-uk-ambassador-warns-9794663.html

The times they are a changin...good.

[Jingthing]

The current Hamas position (obviously a PR game) beyond the charter which they won't change is that can agree to a two state solution as a FIRST STEP in order to bring some stability and a chance to build up their wealth and military power until they can achieve their SECOND STEP, which is clear in their charter ... extermination of Israel. Don't be fooled by the progressive spin doctors. That is NOT the same thing as agreeing to live in peaceful coexistence with the Jewish state of Israel. Far from it.

[7by7]

It is obvious that the current Israeli government do not want a two state solution; they want a one state, Greater Israel solution with the majority of Palestinians shoved into neighbouring countries and those that remain treated as the same second class citizens as Israeli Arabs currently are.

[Steely Dan]

Jingthing, you can repeat that as often as you wish; it will not change the fact that Hamas have repudiated that part of their charter and are willing to co exist with Israel.

It does not change the fact that the Israeli government are using it as an excuse not to negotiate a two state solution.

Your serial repetition of the same lie is straight out of the Third Reich propaganda handbook. As an aside I wonder when the UK government will vote to recognize the Islamic state, seeing as they and Hamas share the same ideology and many of the same methods.

[Scott]

Some off-topic posts and replies have been removed.

The thread is about Palestine.

[Seastallion]

The current Hamas position (obviously a PR game) beyond the charter which they won't change is that can agree to a two state solution as a FIRST STEP in order to bring some stability and a chance to build up their wealth and military power until they can achieve their SECOND STEP, which is clear in their charter ... extermination of Israel. Don't be fooled by the progressive spin doctors. That is NOT the same thing as agreeing to live in peaceful coexistence with the Jewish state of Israel. Far from it.

Now you're clearly projecting way beyond what you know. You present it as "the current Hamas position".

[Jingthing]

A Mexican standoff as it were.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Scott]

Off-topic posts removed.

[7by7]

Jingthing, SteelyDan and others,

You refuse to accept that Hamas have changed their position; you refuse to believe that they are willing to co exist with Israel in a two state solution.

But even without Hamas, Palestine and the Palestinians are not going away.

Tell us; what is your and the Israeli government's preferred final solution to the Palestinian problem?

[MJP]

Maintain defences. Hand out more olive branches. Peace be upon everyone.

[7by7]

The most effective and significant olive branch the Israeli government could hand out would be to recognise Palestine as a state.

How can anyone believe Israel wants a two state solution when they refuse to recognise that the other state exists?

[simple1]

The most effective and significant olive branch the Israeli government could hand out would be to recognise Palestine as a state.

How can anyone believe Israel wants a two state solution when they refuse to recognise that the other state exists?

I really cannot see how Israel will formally recognise 'Palestine as a State' when a fundamental basic, finalisation of the 'maps', is still outstanding. In addition, as we all know, there are two non-contiguous regions - West Bank & Gaza - ruled under separate competing political leadership, so how can a 'State' be recognised?

People will not agree with the conclusion in the article below, nether the less interesting.

“The State of Israel would also never allow a sovereign Palestinian state that had total control over its own borders, economy and army. The Palestinian state would thus be simply a mechanism to secure the Palestinian population into a passively oppressed people.

Even if we are to overlook the negatives of the two-state solution, we cannot overlook the simple fact that the two-state solution is dead.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/now-britain-has-recognised-palestinian-statehood-its-time-to-forget-about-a-farcical-twostate-solution-9796224.html

[7by7]

<snip>

I really cannot see how Israel will formally recognise 'Palestine as a State' when a fundamental basic, finalisation of the 'maps', is still outstanding.

Formal recognition by the Israeli government of the right of the Palestinian state to exist, with the actual borders to be negotiated?

In addition, as we all know, there are two non-contiguous regions - West Bank & Gaza - ruled under separate competing political leadership, so how can a 'State' be recognised?

There is a sort of precedent; East and West Pakistan. Although as most will know that didn't work out in the end and East Pakistan, regretfully after a bloody war, is now Bangladesh.

[Bwanatickey]

Considering that this land for millennium has propagated fearful teachings, like hell fire and damnation, going back to Biblical times, why now , after all these thousands of years later, they are still banging the same drum.

Enlightenment is going beyond the ancient belief system.

[Jingthing]

...

“The State of Israel would also never allow a sovereign Palestinian state that had total control over its own borders, economy and army. The Palestinian state would thus be simply a mechanism to secure the Palestinian population into a passively oppressed people.

...

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/now-britain-has-recognised-palestinian-statehood-its-time-to-forget-about-a-farcical-twostate-solution-9796224.html

That is a VERY one sided way of looking at this. Why do you think it is that Israel is JUSTIFIABLY concerned about security issues from Palestinians?

Often overlooked by Israel’s detractors is that the Arab side has taken what should have been a diplomatic negotiation on borders and resources and turned it into an almost unresolvable security issue. How? By nurturing a culture in which coexistence means defeat, and end-of-conflict is a cardinal sin.

Assigning guilt to one side only, and rushing to issue an indictment, a verdict, and a sentence — as BDS has done — is dishonest, reckless, and probably racist. Most people of conscience understand that Israel derives no benefits from controlling another people’s lives. The current situation is imposed on Israel by neighbors who continue to announce that they wish her dead and that lifting the occupation would only embolden their wishes. BDS’s complaints about travel restrictions on students in the West Bank appear grotesque compared to the daily existential threats that Israel is enduring.

...

The future of Israel/Palestine

For those who are curious about my own thoughts on the prospects of peace in the Middle East, they can be summed up in one sentence:

“Two states for two peoples, equally legitimate and equally indigenous.”

When Palestinian leadership gathers the courage to utter the magical words “equally indigenous,” peace will become unstoppable, not even by BDS.

https://lareviewofbooks.org/essay/bds-new-mccarthyism/

While I would be the first to agree that at this point in history, hopes for a two state solution seem very remote and also would agree that the current Israeli government and probably the majority of the Israeli people are currently not committed to that path, ask yourself in a more fair way: WHY? (Hint -- Palestinians overall do not accept the right of Israel to exist at all.)

Edited October 16, 2014 by Jingthing

[simple1]

...

“The State of Israel would also never allow a sovereign Palestinian state that had total control over its own borders, economy and army. The Palestinian state would thus be simply a mechanism to secure the Palestinian population into a passively oppressed people.

...

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/now-britain-has-recognised-palestinian-statehood-its-time-to-forget-about-a-farcical-twostate-solution-9796224.html

That is a VERY one sided way of looking at this. Why do you think it is that Israel is JUSTIFIABLY concerned about security issues from Palestinians?

Often overlooked by Israel’s detractors is that the Arab side has taken what should have been a diplomatic negotiation on borders and resources and turned it into an almost unresolvable security issue. How? By nurturing a culture in which coexistence means defeat, and end-of-conflict is a cardinal sin.

Assigning guilt to one side only, and rushing to issue an indictment, a verdict, and a sentence — as BDS has done — is dishonest, reckless, and probably racist. Most people of conscience understand that Israel derives no benefits from controlling another people’s lives. The current situation is imposed on Israel by neighbors who continue to announce that they wish her dead and that lifting the occupation would only embolden their wishes. BDS’s complaints about travel restrictions on students in the West Bank appear grotesque compared to the daily existential threats that Israel is enduring.

...

The future of Israel/Palestine

For those who are curious about my own thoughts on the prospects of peace in the Middle East, they can be summed up in one sentence:

“Two states for two peoples, equally legitimate and equally indigenous.”

When Palestinian leadership gathers the courage to utter the magical words “equally indigenous,” peace will become unstoppable, not even by BDS.

https://lareviewofbooks.org/essay/bds-new-mccarthyism/

While I would be the first to agree that at this point in history, hopes for a two state solution seem very remote and also would agree that the current Israeli government and probably the majority of the Israeli people are currently not committed to that path, ask yourself in a more fair way: WHY? (Hint -- Palestinians overall do not accept the right of Israel to exist at all.)

Why are you shouting at me? Just putting up an article representing alternate views & commented most people will not concur.

Yes Israeli government does have justifable security concerns. Suggest you cool down, no need for personalised diatribes that seem to be de rigueur on TV & acheive nothing.

Edited October 16, 2014 by simple1

[Jingthing]

Why are you shouting at me? Just putting up an article representing alternate views & commented most people will not concur.

Yes Israeli government does have justifable security concerns. Suggest you cool down, no need for personalised diatribes that seem to be de rigueur on TV & acheive nothing.

I am not shouting. I am not Israeli so the Israeli government is not my government. If you don't have anything of substance to reply to my post, that's fine. I think the article I posted while it is focused on the Israel demonization and often antisemitic motivations of the BDS movement can also be applied in large measure to the unilateral recognition of Palestine movement which disregards the major political problem of most Palestinians NOT accepting the very existence of Israel.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Jingthing

[theoldgit]

Offensive post removed as well as a number of quoted responses.

[7by7]

<snip>While I would be the first to agree that at this point in history, hopes for a two state solution seem very remote and also would agree that the current Israeli government and probably the majority of the Israeli people are currently not committed to that path, ask yourself in a more fair way: WHY? (Hint -- Palestinians overall do not accept the right of Israel to exist at all.)

<snip>

I think the article I posted while it is focused on the Israel demonization and often antisemitic motivations of the BDS movement can also be applied in large measure to the unilateral recognition of Palestine movement which disregards the major political problem of most Palestinians NOT accepting the very existence of Israel.

On what do you base the claim that most Palestinians do not accept the right of Israel to exists?

The Hamas charter? Well, I know you refuse to believe it because it interferes with your beliefs, but Hamas do now accept the right of Israel to exist.

Palestinians have long accepted the existence of Israel. This comes from Israel's oldest daily newspaper, Haaretz

How many times must the Palestinians recognize Israel?

Netanyahu’s new 'Jewish state' mantra negates the fact that Palestinians recognized Israel more than twenty years ago. They’re still waiting for Israel to recognize Palestine.

Why Isn’t Israel Ever Asked To Recognize Palestine’s “Right To Exist”? is interesting, too. Particularly on Abbas' reasons rejecting Netanyahu's insistence on the Palestinians accepting Israel as a Jewish state and all that implies with regard to the rights of non Jews.

We all know that Israeli Muslims in both Israel proper and the occupied territories are second class citizens with far fewer rights than Israeli Jews.

For balance, I offer this article: Excuse Me, But Israel Has No Right To Exist.

Whilst I, and I think most here, would not agree with the central premise of the headline; it is an interesting read and does make some valid points.

[chuckd]

When did Hamas amend their charter?

I must have missed it.

Thank you

[7by7]

You have certainly missed (or choose to ignore?) the many times this has been posted on TV!

Current status of the Charter

Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal indicated to Robert Pastor, senior adviser to the Carter Center, that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons".[91] Hamas do not use the Charter on their website and prefer to use their election manifesto to put forth their agenda.[92][93] Pastor states that those who quote the charter rather than more recent Hamas statements may be using the Charter as an excuse to ignore Hamas.[91]

British diplomat and former British ambassador to the United Nations Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006".[94] Mohammed Nimer of American University comments on the Charter, "It's a tract meant to mobilize support and it should be amended.... It projects anger, not vision."[95] Ahmed Yousef, an adviser to Ismail Haniyeh, has questioned the use of the charter by Israel and its supporters to brand Hamas as a fundamentalist, terrorist, racist, anti-Semitic organization and claims that they have taken parts of the charter out of context for propaganda purposes. He claims that they dwell on the charter and ignore that Hamas has changed its views with time.[96]

[Jingthing]

Sorry we're not fools. Hamas aims are well known and clear ... the end of Israel.

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