Sex Tourism

[Guest endure]

What is it that I do that is so bad? I forget.

You're another member of the sect of the self-absorbed- tedious beyond belief.

[JRingo]

What is it that I do that is so bad? I forget.

You're another member of the sect of the self-absorbed- tedious beyond belief.

Caught one....

[Guest endure]

What is it that I do that is so bad? I forget.

You're another member of the sect of the self-absorbed- tedious beyond belief.

Caught one....

I don't think so. I've been watching you perform here for the past few days. You add nothing to the forum apart from trite opinions about tedious subjects that have been discussed to death. Originality ain't your middle name.

[JRingo]

What is it that I do that is so bad? I forget.

You're another member of the sect of the self-absorbed- tedious beyond belief.

Caught one....

I don't think so. I've been watching you perform here for the past few days. You add nothing to the forum apart from trite opinions about tedious subjects that have been discussed to death. Originality ain't your middle name.

[wilko]

Justifying where you live by recounting stories of places apparently much worse doesn't seem to be a valid argument to me. Thailand has it's faults and just because somewhere else has worse faults doesn't make Thailand blameless.

It seems to be an argument on the same lines as "If you don't like it, go somewhere else" or "Why don't you go and live in Russia".

I also would question the use of lurid sado-masoshistic stories to make a point.

[Ulysses G.]

What is it that I do that is so bad? I forget.

You're another member of the sect of the self-absorbed- tedious beyond belief.

Caught one....

I hope that you are having a good old time amusing yourself, but the rest of us will have the last laugh when you get banned in a few days.

Edited July 29, 2006 by Ulysses G.

[Cent]

leftcross,

Give the man the kupie doll! Finally, someone with a good and valid point that shows how 'some' of the bar owners do use the barfine to make money, rather than as a way to keep their 'employees' from running off with the first guy that wants to bring them to their hotel room!

"some of the excuses on here are laughable."

Yes, they are.

"tell you what, next time talk to a girl all night and then as soon as the pimp shuts the bar tell him you are taking one of his girls home for the night. see if he says it's ok."

Most will want the barfine money, for sure! It has nothing to do with losing the girl's service as an employee. If this were the case the bar owners would simply hire the girls as dancers, waitresses, cashiers, and barstaff, pay them accordingly (plus they make tips, which with good service could be a decent amount as well), and not let ANY of their staff leave before the end of their shifts. Are they pretty barstaff or dancers to attract drinking customers (and this is, or was at least, a custom done worldwide for centuries to gain male custom in bars)? Or are they hookers allowed to work the customers (and provide some bar services) until they are wanted to do their ancient custom?

"these guys are making money off the poorest and most vulnerable members of thai society."

To be fair, I think most farang bar owners would rather not do this, but go with the flow, as it is ingrained in the Thai society and it would be very hard to compete against those bars that do provide these services using the bar fine system of 'recompense' for the establishment losing their 'employees' presence and work provided. You are spot on though. If this was the actual reason for the bar fine, then if the woman completed her shift, and later went off with a man, there should be no problem with the bar fine not being paid, yes? And if this is somehow not the case, then I'd like the bar owners and their defenders of the bar fines to please explain why this would not be so. I've heard of girls (bar girls/gogo dancers) seen after hours with a man and having it demanded of them to pay the bar fine the next day when returning to work. Why? They finished their 'shift' and the busines didn't lose their employ for the evening.

As for your comment on 'poorest' and most vulnerable, many of these working girls are hardly poor (especially compared to their Thai sisters working in the usual jobs they can get) and all in the farang 'bar scene system' seem to be there of their own choice (some with heavy pressure from family to make lots of money to be sure, but not there not of their own 'choice'). They may be making what some would consider poor choices, but they are hardly slaves being chained to their barstools and the hotel beds they end up in.

"how can anyone defend that???"

They try, but I find the arguments a bit dodgy myself. And no, I am not a cheap charlie and when I indulged at times in the bar scene I never had a problem paying any bar fines. It's the nature of the beast, and inexpensive to boot.

"if you want to dabble then you should pay the girl direct so she gets all the cash. give her the money you would have paid for the pimp's fee."

Therein lies the problem or crux of the matter. Most of the women working these jobs want the protection the bar environment gives them, and the natural bonding and friendships they make with their compatriates working with them. Also, it is safer than 'freelancing', provides a small income on top of what they make going with men (and women), keeps them off the dangerous night time sois, out of the sun and rain, away from the greedy corrupt cops, and provides them with an area where the customers are coming to them in a (relatively) safe and sanuk environment.

The way I would see this working would be for the bar owners to hire permanent staff that do not go with customers any time the customer wants, and have a fixed shift to work. Then, let the 'freelancers' come into their bar looking for customers, as long as they pay their way by buying a drink like any other customer. Cola is fine, it wouldn't need to be alcohol, but one drink an hour should be sufficient to claim their seat at the bar (and really, if they are good looking most would not have to pay for their own drinks anyway). The men would still come, as that is what many are there for, the 'take-away' women of the night. The bar would still make money, AND, be able to keep their actual 'working' staff to run their business while doing so.

But, TIT, this is Thailand. This is the system in place, and most bar owners that have women working for them that can be 'bar fined' are simply stuck with the current business model. Pimps? I guess you could use the word. A bit strong in my book though. Fascilitators maybe? But, how can they compete with the bars using this system already? My way would eliminate the bar fine and probably draw MORE customers. And no, I do not own a beer bar or go-go bar, nor would I ever consider it.

Cent

Edited July 29, 2006 by Cent

[Buckwheat]

Effective on the 1st of September, Farang Bar Owners will be provided with a new mode of transportation for border runs.

Food and drink will also be provided

On board is a state of the art Playstation with the latest video game releases

And of course, all bar owners will be encouraged to bring their pets for the ride

[kerryk]

leftcross,

Give the man the kupie doll! Finally, someone with a good and valid point that shows how 'some' of the bar owners do use the barfine to make money, rather than as a way to keep their 'employees' from running off with the first guy that wants to bring them to their hotel room!

"some of the excuses on here are laughable."

Yes, they are.

"tell you what, next time talk to a girl all night and then as soon as the pimp shuts the bar tell him you are taking one of his girls home for the night. see if he says it's ok."

Most will want the barfine money, for sure! It has nothing to do with losing the girl's service as an employee. If this were the case the bar owners would simply hire the girls as dancers, waitresses, cashiers, and barstaff, pay them accordingly (plus they make tips, which with good service could be a decent amount as well), and not let ANY of their staff leave before the end of their shifts. Are they pretty barstaff or dancers to attract drinking customers (and this is, or was at least, a custom done worldwide for centuries to gain male custom in bars)? Or are they hookers allowed to work the customers (and provide some bar services) until they are wanted to do their ancient custom?

"these guys are making money off the poorest and most vulnerable members of thai society."

To be fair, I think most farang bar owners would rather not do this, but go with the flow, as it is ingrained in the Thai society and it would be very hard to compete against those bars that do provide these services using the bar fine system of 'recompense' for the establishment losing their 'employees' presence and work provided. You are spot on though. If this was the actual reason for the bar fine, then if the woman completed her shift, and later went off with a man, there should be no problem with the bar fine not being paid, yes? And if this is somehow not the case, then I'd like the bar owners and their defenders of the bar fines to please explain why this would not be so. I've heard of girls (bar girls/gogo dancers) seen after hours with a man and having it demanded of them to pay the bar fine the next day when returning to work. Why? They finished their 'shift' and the busines didn't lose their employ for the evening.

As for your comment on 'poorest' and most vulnerable, many of these working girls are hardly poor (especially compared to their Thai sisters working in the usual jobs they can get) and all in the farang 'bar scene system' seem to be there of their own choice (some with heavy pressure from family to make lots of money to be sure, but not there not of their own 'choice'). They may be making what some would consider poor choices, but they are hardly slaves being chained to their barstools and the hotel beds they end up in.

"how can anyone defend that???"

They try, but I find the arguments a bit dodgy myself. And no, I am not a cheap charlie and when I indulged at times in the bar scene I never had a problem paying any bar fines. It's the nature of the beast, and inexpensive to boot.

"if you want to dabble then you should pay the girl direct so she gets all the cash. give her the money you would have paid for the pimp's fee."

Therein lies the problem or crux of the matter. Most of the women working these jobs want the protection the bar environment gives them, and the natural bonding and friendships they make with their compatriates working with them. Also, it is safer than 'freelancing', provides a small income on top of what they make going with men (and women), keeps them off the dangerous night time sois, out of the sun and rain, away from the greedy corrupt cops, and provides them with an area where the customers are coming to them in a (relatively) safe and sanuk environment.

The way I would see this working would be for the bar owners to hire permanent staff that do not go with customers any time the customer wants, and have a fixed shift to work. Then, let the 'freelancers' come into their bar looking for customers, as long as they pay their way by buying a drink like any other customer. Cola is fine, it wouldn't need to be alcohol, but one drink an hour should be sufficient to claim their seat at the bar (and really, if they are good looking most would not have to pay for their own drinks anyway). The men would still come, as that is what many are there for, the 'take-away' women of the night. The bar would still make money, AND, be able to keep their actual 'working' staff to run their business while doing so.

But, TIT, this is Thailand. This is the system in place, and most bar owners that have women working for them that can be 'bar fined' are simply stuck with the current business model. Pimps? I guess you could use the word. A bit strong in my book though. Fascilitators maybe? But, how can they compete with the bars using this system already? My way would eliminate the bar fine and probably draw MORE customers. And no, I do not own a beer bar or go-go bar, nor would I ever consider it.

Cent

I think your point about the bar fine being paid after hours is by far the minority of bar owners.

I have been in the disco at the Nana hotel when the 100 bars in and around Nana Plaza close and there is a general exodus to the disco across the street.

I have never seen anyone from the bars asking these girls to pay a bar fine.

It has been a year since I have been there so maybe it is changing but the same thing happens in Chiang Mai at the local after hour spots.

[Lacoste]

Just a question but can you guys who frequent prostitutes not pick up a respectful female?

[britmaveric]

There are no barfines when the bar is shut - the recent lent holiday I asked this very question to some of the ladies at a favourite bar me and the gf frequent. The answer bar shut - no barfine.

[davethailand]

Just a question but can you guys who frequent prostitutes not pick up a respectful female?

Who says they are'nt already respectable?

[britmaveric]

Just a question but can you guys who frequent prostitutes not pick up a respectful female?

Who says they are'nt already respectable?

Lacoste is first class wank*r thats rather obvious by now. I'd far prefer a bargirl's company than this lad - they have my respect, and can't say the same for him.

Edited July 29, 2006 by britmaveric

[wilko]

Just a question but can you guys who frequent prostitutes not pick up a respectful female?

Do you mean "respectful" or "respectable"?....do you know the difference?

Either way it smacks of misogynistic carp.

[Lacoste]

Just a question but can you guys who frequent prostitutes not pick up a respectful female?

Do you mean "respectful" or "respectable"?....do you know the difference?

Either way it smacks of misogynistic carp.

I meant exactly what i typed 'respectful'.

No i dont have hatred or distrust of women.

[Kerryd]

Just a question but can you guys who frequent prostitutes not pick up a respectful female?

Who says they are'nt already respectable?

Lacoste is first class wank*r thats rather obvious by now. I'd far prefer a bargirl's company than this lad - they have my respect, and can't say the same for him.

I do prefer the company of girls ! I have never found them to be disrespectful, regardless of what they do for a living. In fact, they tend to be a lot more respectful, and respectable, than some other people.

I have also gone out with girls that don't work in bars. No difference. I've had those "non-bar" girls (what Lacoste would call "respectful" females) ask me to take them to go-go bars (they can't get in on their own, they've heard about them and were curious to see for themselves).

I've dated girls/woman that work as waitresses in restaurants, cooks, travel agents and clerks.

One of the only differences I noticed, is that when dating a girl that works in a restaurant, travel agency or other business, you usually have to wait until she is finished work before taking her somewhere.

Can't just walk into a Hot-Pot restaurant and say "Bo ! Drop that tray and lets go to the movies !" Or to the girl filling up your tank at the gas station "Hey Aom ! Drop what your doing and lets go for dinner and some karaoke ! Don't worry about your job ! It should be perfectly alright for you to just take off in the middle of your shift !"

Yeah, right.

[Lacoste]

One of the only differences I noticed, is that when dating a girl that works in a restaurant, travel agency or other business, you usually have to wait until she is finished work before taking her somewhere.

Can't just walk into a Hot-Pot restaurant and say "Bo ! Drop that tray and lets go to the movies !" Or to the girl filling up your tank at the gas station "Hey Aom ! Drop what your doing and lets go for dinner and some karaoke ! Don't worry about your job ! It should be perfectly alright for you to just take off in the middle of your shift !"

Yeah, right.

Thats life and part of the responsibilities of being an adult.

When i said 'respectful' what i was implying is the fact that no person who willingly lets people violate their body for money can have any self respect nor can they expect to command much respect in return.

In your post you say 'One of the only differences' you noticed, Could you tell us what the other differences you noticed were also please, just out of interest having personaly never dated a prostitute.

PS. your head is not realy the same shape as in your photo is it?

[britmaveric]

When i said 'respectful' what i was implying is the fact that no person who willingly lets people violate their body for money can have any self respect nor can they expect to command much respect in return.

Everyone commands respect until proven otherwise and here is a hint it has naught to do with one's chosen profession.

Edited July 29, 2006 by britmaveric

[davethailand]

When i said 'respectful' what i was implying is the fact that no person who willingly lets people violate their body for money can have any self respect nor can they expect to command much respect in return.

I'm sure given the choice they would like to stop and join the "perfect world".

[Kerryd]

Thats life and part of the responsibilities of being an adult.

So, staying until the end of your shift is "part of the responsibilities of being an adult" when you are referring to someone working at a 7-11, restaurant, gas station, ect. But if that same someone starts working at Lennie's, or Jenny's or Beavers, they should be allowed to up and leave on a whim, and the business owner should be forced to just live with that ?

When i said 'respectful' what i was implying is the fact that no person who willingly lets people violate their body for money can have any self respect nor can they expect to command much respect in return.

So having voluntary sex is now "violating" their bodies ? Or is it only "violation" if they accept cash in return ?

What if they accept a more stable lifestyle, (complete with house, car, ring on the finger and a sense of security and safety), instead of cash ?

You obviously have decided that people who have sex are violating their bodies and therefore have no self-respect, nor are deserving of respect from others.

What about professional boxers and fighters ? Are they not violating their bodies ? What about people that have tattoos and piercings ? Are they not violating their bodies ?

What gives you the right to determine what constitutes a violation ?

What gives you the right to determine who is worthy of respect, and who isn't, without even knowing the people you are passing judgement on ?

If you've suddenly developed the ability to walk on water, raise the dead and change water into wine, please let the rest of us know. I for one will immediately begin construction of another cross.

In your post you say 'One of the only differences' you noticed, Could you tell us what the other differences you noticed were also please, just out of interest having personaly never dated a prostitute.

How do you know you've never dated a prostitute ? Have your dates been required to give you a detailed life history, including all their intimate details, before you date them ?

Meanwhile. I've found that the girls that don't work in the bar scene, tend to be more curious about it (naturally, as the ones that are working in the bars already know what goes on).

I've also found that the non-bar girls tend to be more frugal with regards to money. (I took a cute girl that worked in a laundry to dinner one night, in a farang restaurant. I spent 20 minutes trying to convince her to order something from the menu but she wouldn't, as she thought the prices were too high. I explained that the prices weren't that bad and I had more than enough to pay. I even tried to get the waitress to just bring something she would like.

She wouldn't go for it, telling me that she could buy the same stuff at the market for 20-25 baht. She did settle for a bottle of water, and we bought some food for her at the market on the way home).

I've found that girls that work the bar scene (especially if they've been around for awhile), don't let little things like price get in the way, especially if someone else is paying the bill.

But I've also found that those same girls can be frugal as well, if they think of you as a friend, not a customer. I've gone to the markets on soi Buakhao and Thepprasit road many times with various girls (bar/non-bar) and had them barter down prices for me (on stuff I was buying for myself).

PS. your head is not realy the same shape as in your photo is it?

No

When I first registered, that was one of the only pics I had of myself on the computer. Can't recall if I squashed it to fit, or if it was the forum software that squished the pic !

(BTW - That pic is from 2003. In the background is the "King's Palace", on the outskirts of Kabul, Afghanistan. The tents behind me is where we lived for the 2+ years we were there. Hard to see, but in the very lower-left corner of the pic you can see a little piece of the gravel-filled protective barrier that surrounded each tent.)

Edited July 29, 2006 by Kerryd

[chuchok]

Trolls

Even if it were proven that I was trolling, and even if I admitted I was trolling…

so what…where’s the harm?

It's against the rules tiny.Have a read of them.You might just learn something.

[simon43]

When i said 'respectful' what i was implying is the fact that no person who willingly lets people violate their body for money can have any self respect nor can they expect to command much respect in return.

[\quote]

I will refrain from rising to that pathetic statement. At the end of our lives when we are called to answer to whatever higher being exists, you are going to have a hel_l of a problem getting past those pearly gates.

Simon

[kurgen]

Ringo is a <deleted>

Ringo is a <deleted>

La-la-la-la

La-la-la-la

IMHO

P.S. so is Lacoste, La-la-la.....

[soic]

Jringo- I believe that your statement below has touched off yet another way to look at the situation. I believe that the girls are in fact looking for customers to pay the barfine and take them away from there.... I do however believe that those girls would happily accompany the customer to a dance club, restaurant, meuseum or even to the mall shopping. I also think that they would be absolutely gloriously happy not to have to have sex with those customers. Is it the paying and collecting of barfines that is an evil practice? or could it be more the expectations of the customers after they've paid the barfine that should be the issue? Just a thought.... there are more than two sides to many subjects.

Then it is perfectly clear that the girls are not in the bars to "work" in the bars but to draw in customers who are looking for someone to have sex with. They are prostitutes, the bar owner helps hook them up with customers and charges for his service, that makes him a pimp.

So Keeryd, you say the world is on the brink of a major war so I suppose that makes it okay somehow to condone immorality?

[psychedelix47]

So, staying until the end of your shift is "part of the responsibilities of being an adult" when you are referring to someone working at a 7-11, restaurant, gas station, ect. But if that same someone starts working at Lennie's, or Jenny's or Beavers, they should be allowed to up and leave on a whim, and the business owner should be forced to just live with that ?

What are you on about? It's their job to leave when they get a customer who pays the barfine.

If you can't tell the difference between dating an office girl and paying a hooker you got seriously bad karma, man.

What if they accept a more stable lifestyle, (complete with house, car, ring on the finger and a sense of security and safety), instead of cash ?

Can't tell the difference between a short-time hooker and a married woman, can ye?

As for 'violating', have a read through some of the reports of physical and psychological damage to those who've spend a long time in the horizontal business.

I have done frequent healing meditations for one of my ex's who got involved in prostitution.

Dude, the character changes she's gone through - it's not a pretty pic, it gets me into a bad trip evrytime I see her, about once a year.

Haven't been to Pattaya myself, but looking at the resident's coments here, the place got powerful bad vibes going.

Edited July 29, 2006 by psychedelix47

[kerryk]

Jringo- I believe that your statement below has touched off yet another way to look at the situation. I believe that the girls are in fact looking for customers to pay the barfine and take them away from there.... I do however believe that those girls would happily accompany the customer to a dance club, restaurant, meuseum or even to the mall shopping. I also think that they would be absolutely gloriously happy not to have to have sex with those customers. Is it the paying and collecting of barfines that is an evil practice? or could it be more the expectations of the customers after they've paid the barfine that should be the issue? Just a thought.... there are more than two sides to many subjects.

Then it is perfectly clear that the girls are not in the bars to "work" in the bars but to draw in customers who are looking for someone to have sex with. They are prostitutes, the bar owner helps hook them up with customers and charges for his service, that makes him a pimp.

So Keeryd, you say the world is on the brink of a major war so I suppose that makes it okay somehow to condone immorality?

Given it is the right time of the month and all other things being equal from listening to the ladies talk in the bar the next day I would say 30 to 50% are upset if they don’t have sex. I would defer of course to any bar owners who have more experience than myself.

If one thinks about in rational terms instead of the of the picture that has been painted of kidnapped and abused young women forced to work in slavery you would arrive at the conclusion that both men and women who pick the sex trade like sex.

After a while as in most businesses boredom sets in and work becomes something of a chore instead of the joy it was in the beginning.

Usually a break of a year or so restores the initial vigor.

[Maigo6]

.

If one thinks about in rational terms instead of the of the picture that has been painted of kidnapped and abused young women forced to work in slavery you would arrive at the conclusion that both men and women who pick the sex trade like sex.

You think these girls actually like going with you ?

I had a very close friend who was a hooker in Singapore, she likened having a shi.te as being more of a sensation than sitting astride some Farang that was paying for her.

Believe me, they don't like you, they despise you for being in a position to buy them.

Just as you would, if the boot was on the other foot.

If you think some 18 year old girl gets off by going with old farangs, just look on the wall in her room,. see how many posters are of young Thai Pop or Movie stars, and how many posters are of Old Farangs.

Better still, take off your clothes and stand in front of a full length mirror, then decide if you are the answer to a young Thai girls prayers, if you wasn't paying money, they would have nothing at all to do with you.

Better still, go back to your own country and try to pull a young girl, you would be arrested, beaten up, or laughed at.

Edited July 29, 2006 by Maigo6

[Jeff1]

I belive the point is that, of course you can not take a lady out of her place of employment and pay the owner to let her leave in bars or where ever she worked, where we come/came from . One would make a date to see her after work or when ever . In those types of bars in Thailand, a lady would not be employed for very long if she made dates after work . She would be let go for cheating the owner out of his barfine .

[rainman]

Seems kind of rotten to take advantage of someones misfortune to make money.

keep in mind most girls working in bars could have regular jobs where they would be paid 4000-6000 baht per month. if they work in a bar they could more or less easily make that kind of money in 2-3 nights. having said that, most girls are not forced to work in bars and i personally know a bar owner that has a waiting list for girls that actually want to go work there.

personally, i'm not into the whole paying for sex thing. that doesn't mean i'm cheap or anything, i just believe that the desire to have sex with someone shouldn't be based on money. of course, more in thailand than in other countries i've been, you can't always be sure if the girl you had sex with hasn't previously accepted money from someone else for sex.

[kerryk]

.

If one thinks about in rational terms instead of the of the picture that has been painted of kidnapped and abused young women forced to work in slavery you would arrive at the conclusion that both men and women who pick the sex trade like sex.

You think these girls actually like going with you ?

I had a very close friend who was a hooker in Singapore, she likened having a shi.te as being more of a sensation than sitting astride some Farang that was paying for her.

Believe me, they don't like you, they despise you for being in a position to buy them.

Just as you would, if the boot was on the other foot.

If you think some 18 year old girl gets off by going with old farangs, just look on the wall in her room,. see how many posters are of young Thai Pop or Movie stars, and how many posters are of Old Farangs.

Better still, take off your clothes and stand in front of a full length mirror, then decide if you are the answer to a young Thai girls prayers, if you wasn't paying money, they would have nothing at all to do with you.

Better still, go back to your own country and try to pull a young girl, you would be arrested, beaten up, or laughed at.

I hate to answer a question with a question but how would I tell if she wanted to be with me?

Or have you made up your mind that that is an impossibility?

Why would I believe you?

What qualifications do you have that make you an authority on prostitutes and Johns?

Are you not in a position to buy them?

Do you think all bar girls are shallow creatures who dote on posters of movie stars?

Do you think all women only consider age and physical appearance as the most important things in a relationship trumping all others?