The Investigation Into Thailand’s Backpacker Slayings Is Officially a Farce

[Jean Pierre Jacquot]

But now it's official.

Official?

There is only the headlines saying that and the whole text of the article says or gives no hints at all about this being official at all.....

[Just1Voice]

In all countries suspect of horrible murder told they have been tortured...... or forced to make confession

Let justice do their job.....

In this case DNA test show that the two suspects were in the murder place.......

Tell DNA test was bias it is very difficult because Thailand has the same standard for DNA test like other countries......

This test consist to extract DNA from body fluid, after sequence it for have the DNA fingerprinting. After coroner compare the different DNA

This test is the same in USA EUROPE and other country.......

This test is the same in USA EUROPE and other country....

Do you honestly believe that? Amazing if you do.

[allan michaud]

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Kingsley Abbott, Bangkok-based adviser for the International Commission of Jurists...adds, the burden of proof rests on the prosecution, as the two men must be presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Or as we say back home in Colorado: Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat

Can someone tell me if Thailand Criminal code does, in fact, have a tradition of presuming one's innocence until proven guilty?

Thank you

Burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove the crime 'beyond a reasonable doubt'

Judge arbiter of facts. They decide if burden of proof has been satisfied.

That's good to know, I thought it was all down to the size of one's wallet.

[Braddockrd]

Thailand is, once again, at the forefront of a. International joke. I don't think anyone expected anything less (or more) of the very competent Thai police

[TTom911]

I very much doubt we will ever know what has really happened. The "best" we can probably hope for is that the Myanmar "suspects" survive, then probably will have to be released at some stage because of insufficient evidence, and any "independent" review of "evidence" will be inconclusive because all the key evidence is either compromised, missing or was never taken. "They" will absolutely never admit to any wrong doing, they were determined from the start to do whatever it takes to protect the culprits. And, given what is for them at stake now, they will not change their stance. The Myanmar guys were probably (so far) extremely lucky because it took "them" a bit too long to think how to explain TWO suicides... Had it been just one suspect he would have been dead already... having two suicides to explain took them just a bit too long to come up with a plan... and by then the "danger of suicide" was already out in the media and made it is even harder for "them" (still not impossible...) to get rid of the inconvenience... Otherwise that would have been the solution: DNA "proof", confession, public parade, suicide... THE PERFECT "solution"... surely successfully rehearsed proven "successful "a few times"

Let's better not call this a "botched investigation"... what happens here is of a VERY different "class"...

Sorry, have to go and throw up now....

[stephen terry]

The prosecutor will proceed to trial. A judge will be appointed. Outcome will be guilty. Do you really have any doubts that this won't happen? This is called due process, Thailand style. And there's nothing you or I can do to effectively challenge this outcome.

I'd be over the moon to have to eat my words...

[a99az]

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"if" the DNA "is" an (honest and genuine) match, then their "confessions: mean absolutely nothing in the big scheme of things . . . cases are (should be) tried and judged on facts (supposedly) . . . and their biggest piece of evidence is the DNA . . . except no one now believes it's a genuine or truthful match . . .

Match! it could be if both samples where taken from the suspects. Not too hard to do.

[catweazle]

Nice to see that this absurd travesty and kick in the face of humanity by now officially is being published as a farce. I personally believe that a proper word for it yet needs to be created.

Perhaps in the future there will be an insider phrases like these to be used amongst Thailand expats:

1) The police had a "Koh Tao Moment" (pretends to poke around in the dark whilst knowing who the "employer"... ahemm, sorry, suspect is)

2) The investigation "goes Koh Tao" (investigation was never intended to succeed)

3) "Oh, Koh Tao!" (famous last words instead of "Oh, $#!t!")

4) "Koh Tao you!" (instead of "F.... you!")

5) Incredible to see how quickly that "went Koh Tao" (went south)

6) "Don't give me Koh Tao!" (don't give me S#!t)

7) "Go to Koh Tao!" (go to hell!)

8) "That policeman is Koh Tao!" (corrupt, superficial, racist, part of mafia, a criminal himself)

9) "His chances for survial, to win, to succeed, etc. are Koh Tao." (99% chance to fail)

10) "This is so Koh Tao!" (this is so disgusting, sick, immoral, wrong, perverted, inhumane, despicable, corrupted and bad to the core all in one word)

This said, I believe with point ten I answered the "find the word" challenge myself: The murder investigation is officially "a Koh Tao!"...

[Dogmatix]

In the full TIME article re CCTV: but is circumstantial at best.

In the USA, there have been murder convictions based upon circumstantial evidence when the body of the 'murder' victim has never been recovered.

Yes but slightly different circumstances... Those investigations probably were not shrouded in negligence, bribery, lying by officials, torture and incompetence

That this one is is only speculation. That will up to a judge. A Thai judge. In Thailand. Where a crime occurred in Thailand. Not in UK. Not in Myanmar. Thailand. Under Criminal Procedure Code of Thailand.

have you seen the images of the crime scene? It wasn't exactly properly sectioned off for a double murder was it. Did you see the images the Thai police posted on Facebook of the victims with their faces smashed in? Did you hear about how they didn't take any DNA from prime suspects or when they accused one of their friends because they thought he was a homosexual? I could go on and these are facts not speculation

In fact they accused David's room mate and friend from home, Chris Ware of being his homosexual lover and murdering both in a fit of rage when he found David was being unfaithful to him with woman. When they found out Hannah had been raped by two Asian men, they were forced to drop this nonsensical early attempt at framing a foreigner. Must have been a terrifying episode for Chris Ware, traumatised by the murder of his close friend.

It's a good illustration of Thai police ethics, not to mention their stupidity.

[sweatalot]

In the full TIME article re CCTV: but is circumstantial at best.

In the USA, there have been murder convictions based upon circumstantial evidence when the body of the 'murder' victim has never been recovered.

Yes but slightly different circumstances... Those investigations probably were not shrouded in negligence, bribery, lying by officials, torture and incompetence

That this one is is only speculation. That will up to a judge. A Thai judge. In Thailand. Where a crime occurred in Thailand. Not in UK. Not in Myanmar. Thailand. Under Criminal Procedure Code of Thailand.

bad enough

[huawei]

This has been a farce since day one.

You're absolutely right, the number of ill-informed, insensitive, speculative posts that have appeared, and continue to appear, here is a farce, I'm glad someone else recognises that.

You are totally right.?

There have been about 2000 posts on the subjects over the different threads on here ( just a guess I didn't count them) which is almost as many different stories the BIB have told us so far.

With out the pressure from social media on the inconstistencies of the investigation, there would not be any article on the Time and other intnl press, no pressure from Human rights activists and RTP would have gone away with it, as it has always done. This is a great opportunity not only to find the real murderers, but also to reduce corruption in Thailand.

Exactly this is why there are Thais outside the court rooms with their banners for certain civil cases, it's because they want press coverage as they know...

[catweazle]

I very much doubt we will ever know what has really happened. The "best" we can probably hope for is that the Myanmar "suspects" survive, then probably will have to be released at some stage because of insufficient evidence, and any "independent" review of "evidence" will be inconclusive because all the key evidence is either compromised, missing or was never taken. "They" will absolutely never admit to any wrong doing, they were determined from the start to do whatever it takes to protect the culprits. And, given what is for them at stake now, they will not change their stance. The Myanmar guys were probably (so far) extremely lucky because it took "them" a bit too long to think how to explain TWO suicides... Had it been just one suspect he would have been dead already... having two suicides to explain took them just a bit too long to come up with a plan... and by then the "danger of suicide" was already out in the media and made it is even harder for "them" (still not impossible...) to get rid of the inconvenience... Otherwise that would have been the solution: DNA "proof", confession, public parade, suicide... THE PERFECT "solution"... surely successfully rehearsed proven "successful "a few times"

Let's better not call this a "botched investigation"... what happens here is of a VERY different "class"...

Sorry, have to go and throw up now....

I fully agree, especially to the 2nd last sentence!

Btw... I'm throwing up on a daily basis since the double murder was discovered... And there we have another one - "I have to Koh Tao!" (throw up)... would be all funny if it weren't that sad. Sickening also to read the announcement "Tourists flocking back to Koh Tao"... as it shows how quickly people forget

[JLCrab]

deleted double post

From the website of the US Embassy in Thailand:

"Americans traveling or living in Thailand are subject to the laws of the Kingdom of Thailand."

So are others.

[catweazle]

The prosecutor will proceed to trial. A judge will be appointed. Outcome will be guilty. Do you really have any doubts that this won't happen? This is called due process, Thailand style. And there's nothing you or I can do to effectively challenge this outcome.

I'd be over the moon to have to eat my words...

Fear you are correct Stephen - it however from now on will be called "Koh Tao style" instead of Thailand style... Never thought there could be anything worse...

[emilymat]

Kingsley Abbott, Bangkok-based adviser for the International Commission of Jurists...adds, the burden of proof rests on the prosecution, as the two men must be presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Or as we say back home in Colorado: Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat

Can someone tell me if Thailand Criminal code does, in fact, have a tradition of presuming one's innocence until proven guilty?

Thank you

Having read this mornings editorial in one of the two major English language papers here, I am horrified to discover that the police give the prosecutor the 'evidence' and then recommend the sentence. So, it would appear the proof of guilt and sentence is largely with the police.

If I've read that correctly I am horrified, but cannot mention the source as I think the moderators on this forum do not allow direct quotes from certain publications. It scares me to death that such a system exists.

I'm no expert, but I believe in the UK the cops submit the evidence to the Director of Public Prosecutions and they make a judgement on whether or not the case has a reasonable chance of success. Others will correct me if I'm wrong.

[ExPratt]

That's the trouble when you eliminate (Just for a while mind) all political wrangling and discussion , there is nothing to hide behind when your country is under scrutiny. Seems like quite a few murders and violent acts towards farangs lately ? , same as always just nothing else on or allowed to be on the front pages

[JLCrab]

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In the full TIME article re CCTV: but is circumstantial at best.

In the USA, there have been murder convictions based upon circumstantial evidence when the body of the 'murder' victim has never been recovered.

Yes and more than one innocent person has been executed, very scary but that is the USA for you.

Yes -- and also people that kill someone and are able to dispose of the body or destroy all directly incriminating evidence are not let off the hook just for that reason. But seems lots of people on here already know the outcome of any judicial proceeding here in Thailand but maybe let's not spoil it for those who want to stay and see the ending.

[TTom911]

I very much doubt we will ever know what has really happened. The "best" we can probably hope for is that the Myanmar "suspects" survive, then probably will have to be released at some stage because of insufficient evidence, and any "independent" review of "evidence" will be inconclusive because all the key evidence is either compromised, missing or was never taken. "They" will absolutely never admit to any wrong doing, they were determined from the start to do whatever it takes to protect the culprits. And, given what is for them at stake now, they will not change their stance. The Myanmar guys were probably (so far) extremely lucky because it took "them" a bit too long to think how to explain TWO suicides... Had it been just one suspect he would have been dead already... having two suicides to explain took them just a bit too long to come up with a plan... and by then the "danger of suicide" was already out in the media and made it is even harder for "them" (still not impossible...) to get rid of the inconvenience... Otherwise that would have been the solution: DNA "proof", confession, public parade, suicide... THE PERFECT "solution"... surely successfully rehearsed proven "successful "a few times"

Let's better not call this a "botched investigation"... what happens here is of a VERY different "class"...

Sorry, have to go and throw up now....

I fully agree, especially to the 2nd last sentence!

Btw... I'm throwing up on a daily basis since the double murder was discovered... And there we have another one - "I have to Koh Tao!" (throw up)... would be all funny if it weren't that sad. Sickening also to read the announcement "Tourists flocking back to Koh Tao"... as it shows how quickly people forget

The worst is (if it is even possible to call anything "worse") that absolutely NOTHING will change in this place as a consequence. They will continue to conduct themselves up and down the country in no different way. Same things will happen over and over again (just "normally" much less public). Which of course also means that all good-willing (or naive, you decide how you want to call it) hopes that "the guys in the new shits" would really change anything is over. They are all sitting in the same boat, just on different seats... and different suit colours... otherwise "same-same"... You see this by how even now the RTP is still "praised" by exactly these people ...

This case could be a starter to literally "kick"start change as this case is so openly messed up AND it has some of the required international attention to counter the internal habits to cover things up. But if there is no real further "visible/audible/readable expression of desire for change" here on the ground, which I doubt will happen (and which is basically forbidden by law now.........) then also the international media support will quickly fizzle out when it's not sensational enough anymore (and here it will subside even faster). And then we are back to the same old "Amazing Thailand".... as if nothing ever happened... Anyone wants to risk a bet against me...?

[kurnell]

There is still at least one murderous psychopath out there, laughing at the fact the he has so fat gotten away with it.

[TTom911]

There is still at least one murderous psychopath out there, laughing at the fact the he has so fat gotten away with it.

it's not ONE psychopath, it's an entire clique who goes to ANY length for whatever they fancy... a lone psychopath is a cuddly pet compared to what's really happening...

Edited October 12, 2014 by TTom911

[IAMSOBAD]

It's been a farce from the ROYAL THAI POLICE FARCE forever. It's just going viral for the world to see.

[kurnell]

There is still at least one murderous psychopath out there, laughing at the fact the he has so fat gotten away with it.

it's not ONE psychopath, it's an entire clique who goes to ANY length for whatever they fancy... a lone psychopath is a cuddly pet compared to what's really happening...

"at least"

[Kan Win]

Well in Kan they did catch the killer of

29-MAY-2005 photo taken

I was Thai police man from Kan.

Win

[mjj]

Most of us have known for a long while that we are second when it comes to justice in Thailand, but for some reason this case really hits it home to me. Considering how high profile this case is, to me it sends a message of open season on westerners. Relatively speaking.

I remember in the early days of me living in Thailand my wife's uncle saying I am protected more than Thai's because of the backlash it would create. Doesn't seem that way anymore......

Shame really because I like Thailand.

[rickirs]

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In the full TIME article re CCTV: but is circumstantial at best.

In the USA, there have been murder convictions based upon circumstantial evidence when the body of the 'murder' victim has never been recovered.

The U.S. Supreme Court has stated that "circumstantial evidence is intrinsically no different from testimonial [direct] evidence" (Holland v. United States, 348 U.S. 121, 75 S. Ct. 127, 99 L. Ed. 150 [1954]). Thus, there is little distinction between direct and circumstantial evidence with regards to admissibility of evidence in trials. However, the quality and quantity of circumstantial evidence may be subject to more challenge of interpretation than direct evidence.

Even the use of DNA analysis might be considered circumstantial evidence as it only indicates a probable attacker iwth mongoloid [asian] features as the island hundreds people fitting that characteristic. The effective use of circumstantial evidence requires a more cummulation of evidence (motive, finger prints, victim's blood on accused's clothing, incriminating or untruthful statements, no alibi, etc.) than direct evidence ("I saw the hoe in the accused's hands hitting the victim").

So once the accussed recanter their confessions, the police report would appear weak with interpretation of possibly faulty circusmtantial evidence and opens the investigation to claims of bias if police can't "repair" their investigation.

[TTom911]

There is still at least one murderous psychopath out there, laughing at the fact the he has so fat gotten away with it.

it's not ONE psychopath, it's an entire clique who goes to ANY length for whatever they fancy... a lone psychopath is a cuddly pet compared to what's really happening...

"at least"

sorry, I missed that...

[Local Drunk]

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In the full TIME article re CCTV: but is circumstantial at best.

In the USA, there have been murder convictions based upon circumstantial evidence when the body of the 'murder' victim has never been recovered.

The U.S. Supreme Court has stated that "circumstantial evidence is intrinsically no different from testimonial [direct] evidence" (Holland v. United States, 348 U.S. 121, 75 S. Ct. 127, 99 L. Ed. 150 [1954]). Thus, there is little distinction between direct and circumstantial evidence with regards to admissibility of evidence in trials. However, the quality and quantity of circumstantial evidence may be subject to more challenge of interpretation than direct evidence.

Even the use of DNA analysis might be considered circumstantial evidence as it only indicates a probable attacker iwth mongoloid [asian] features as the island hundreds people fitting that characteristic. The effective use of circumstantial evidence requires a more cummulation of evidence (motive, finger prints, victim's blood on accused's clothing, incriminating or untruthful statements, no alibi, etc.) than direct evidence ("I saw the hoe in the accused's hands hitting the victim").

So once the accussed recanter their confessions, the police report would appear weak with interpretation of possibly faulty circusmtantial evidence and opens the investigation to claims of bias if police can't "repair" their investigation.

And dragging the suspects to reenact the crime in front of the media would mean that a case like like this would have been thrown out by the first district judge that it was presented to.

[mercman24]

ok totally off subject, but to endorse how people do not read posts properly, i have a female friend who had her phone nicked and i asked about getting a s/h phone, now it appears ever reply, i get is calling her "my girfriend" <deleted>

Edited October 12, 2014 by metisdead
Profane acronym

[JLCrab]

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In the full TIME article re CCTV: but is circumstantial at best.

In the USA, there have been murder convictions based upon circumstantial evidence when the body of the 'murder' victim has never been recovered.

The U.S. Supreme Court has stated that "circumstantial evidence is intrinsically no different from testimonial [direct] evidence" (Holland v. United States, 348 U.S. 121, 75 S. Ct. 127, 99 L. Ed. 150 [1954]). Thus, there is little distinction between direct and circumstantial evidence with regards to admissibility of evidence in trials. However, the quality and quantity of circumstantial evidence may be subject to more challenge of interpretation than direct evidence.

Even the use of DNA analysis might be considered circumstantial evidence as it only indicates a probable attacker iwth mongoloid [asian] features as the island hundreds people fitting that characteristic. The effective use of circumstantial evidence requires a more cummulation of evidence (motive, finger prints, victim's blood on accused's clothing, incriminating or untruthful statements, no alibi, etc.) than direct evidence ("I saw the hoe in the accused's hands hitting the victim").

So once the accussed recanter their confessions, the police report would appear weak with interpretation of possibly faulty circusmtantial evidence and opens the investigation to claims of bias if police can't "repair" their investigation.

So the police report will soon be given to the prosecutors and then everyone can then analyze how weak it is.

[mataleo]

thats strange

Edited October 12, 2014 by mataleo