HK leader says democracy movement has 'almost zero chance'

[Lite Beer]

UMBRELLA REVOLUTION
HK leader says democracy movement has 'almost zero chance'

Hong Kong's pro-democracy protesters have an "almost zero chance" of changing Beijing's stance and securing free elections, the city's embattled Chief Executive Leung Chun-ying said in a TV show Sunday.

Demonstrators calling for Beijing to grant full democracy to the former British colony have paralysed parts of Hong Kong for more than two weeks, causing widespread disruption and prompting clashes between protesters and residents who opposed road blockades.

In an interview broadcast on a local channel TVB Sunday, Leung said the street protests had "spun out of control" and warned it was highly unlikely the action would alter Beijing’s position.

He added if the government had to clear the protests sites, police would use a "minimum amount of force" to handle the situation.

China announced in August that while Hong Kongers will be able to vote for Leung’s successor in 2017, only two or three vetted candidates will be allowed to stand -- an arrangement the protesters dismiss as "fake democracy".

Since last month students and pro-democracy campaigners have taken to their streets -- sometimes in their tens of thousands -- to call for Beijing to change its position and allow full, free and fair elections and to demand Leung’s resignation.

"In achieving universal suffrage in 2017, if the prerequisite is to put down the Basic Law and the decision made by the National People’s Congress Standing Committee, I believe we all know that the chance (achieving) is almost zero," Leung said during the TV interview.

Crunch talks between student leaders and city officials collapsed last week, plunging the former British colony which is now under Chinese rule, in to a fresh crisis as protesters have vowed to dig in for the long haul.

Leung was unable to say specifically how the current stalemate could end despite repeatedly asked by the programme host during the interview.

He added: "We’ve resorted to all kinds of persuasions, the way we resolve it in the end is being constantly reviewed. We absolutely would not prefer clearing the venue, but if one day the venue has to be cleared, I believe the police will use their professional judgement and training using minimum amount of force," he said.

Leung also insisted he would not resign saying it would not resolve the situation.

A Hong Kong pro-government group said Saturday demonstrators would find themselves surrounded if the city’s administration failed to clear the barricades.

The Blue Ribbon Movement said the authorities should dismantle three sites the protesters have closed to traffic by Tuesday night or they would encircle them.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/HK-leader-says-democracy-movement-has-almost-zero--30245305.html

-- The Nation 2014-10-12

[mikehock]

*OP has been removed*

Doesn't he have a gift for using a lot of words to say nothing .....for example
" I believe we all know that the chance (achieving) is almost zero,"

I believe I almost know what he means!

[Publicus]

The CCP Boyz in Beijing have a new major headache because of their obsessive compulsive campaign to control democracy in Hong Kong.

The CCP Boyz, who hate, detest, despise democracy, also know they cannot abolish democracy in HKG so they have tried to control it Iran ayatollah style.....

If the idea is approved by Hong Kong’s 70-member Legislative Council, the city could face an Iran-style system of rigged elections. Yes, everyone will be able to vote. But a committee favorable to Beijing would select the candidates. One Chinese official said voters should not be “confused” with too many choices in candidates.

The winner of such elections would most likely be loyal not only to the party but reflect the mainland’s value of limited rights under emperor-like rule. Hong Kong’s judiciary, too, could lose much of its independence.

China has steadily eroded the freedoms in Hong Kong since 1997. Now the city’s people must make a difficult decision over the issue of keeping open democracy.

Hong Kong’s decision is being watched closely by Taiwan, which is concerned that China’s attempts to control the island nation will include a demand for subservience to Beijing and less democracy.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/the-monitors-view/2014/0902/Hong-Kong-s-pearl-of-great-price

The great majority of the population of HKG regard themselves as "Hong Kongers" and not Chinese....not even as Hong Kong Chinese. The vast majority of Hong Kongers think in the modern terms of the rule of law, equality, freedom, while the Boyz and the mainland PRChinese continue to think in the ancient terms of race, nationality, ethnicity.

Taiwan thinks in the same terms as Hong Kongers do.

The HKG Umbrella Revolution is ongoing as is the Sunflower Revolution that arose on Taiwan earlier this year. An important point globally is that no one is calling this a color revolution or a spring, summer, fall, winter seasonal fashion. It is uniquely East Asian and the same issues will be here next year and the year after that indefinitely until they are resolved.

This is terra incognita to both sides so nothing is assured going forward, save a stubborn and ancient mob in Beijing versus determined forward thinking free peoples in HKG and Taiwan. It's important to note dictators and dictatorships come and go while democracies endure.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Publicus

[bkkcanuck8]

He just gave them hope.... almost no chance = has a chance

[LawrenceChee]

The only headache they have is the western insistence it dictate terms in how China should progress on its definition of democracy and how fast it should achieve that

I think besides spreading its manufacturing hub , it's also about time China consider exporting communism to certain states or provinces in western countries who believe in freedom of choice and are open to communism and see if their government can integrate that successfully and as quick as China wants it to happen

Edited October 12, 2014 by LawrenceChee

[Publicus]

Hong Kong absolutely rejects Beijing's design of Iran style democracy and so does Taiwan.

It is they who are insisting, not the West.

While the West has no say in this sovereign CCP matter, the West does of course support the vast majorities respectively in HKG and on Taiwan.

The people of HKG and of Taiwan are making themselves clear to the Beijing Boyz that democracy is their priority and that the opposition of the CCP Boyz in Beijing is making a great trouble for themselves and for HKG. .

[newcomer71]

The only headache they have is the western insistence it dictate terms in how China should progress on its definition of democracy and how fast it should achieve that

And would you kindly explain how "the western" are insisting on dictate terms, as the only people involved in protests are HKers?

[Thakkar]

The only headache they have is the western insistence it dictate terms in how China should progress on its definition of democracy and how fast it should achieve that

I think besides spreading its manufacturing hub , it's also about time China consider exporting communism to certain states or provinces in western countries who believe in freedom of choice and are open to communism and see if their government can integrate that successfully and as quick as China wants it to happen

Just as there exists crony capitalism to a greater or lesser extent in many capitalist countries, so there is a kind of crony communism in China, along with a kind of bizarre capitalist flavor. It is merely exploitation under a different--dare I say--umbrella.

More crucially, China lacks checks and balances, a free press or an independent judiciary. The result is Rule BY law, rather than of Rule OF law.

In terms of political development, China has nothing constructive to offer. Even the Chinese Communist Party recognizes this, which is why they only ever talk about China's impressive economic development. It is only other governments who talk of the "China Model" to justify their autocratic tendencies.

T

[Jean Pierre Jacquot]

Leung is an idiot! He should know that the best tactique of Bejing to weaken up the protest is giving them some feeling that they achieved something in removing Leung and of course doing business as usual afterwards.

[Strangebrew]

Not western world business period and I'm from the western World.

[Franky Bear]

They were happy enough for 100 years with out democracy when the UK installed their own Governors.

[Eric Loh]

Beijing has reneged their promise thrice in past years to allow the right to determine universal suffrage. This has boil over to current occupy central movement. Similarly the Thailand junta has promise election next year and if they break their promise, we will expect similar anger and protest.

[Publicus]

Hong Kongers display the British colonial flag to show Beijing the future of Hong Kong is tied to

UK style democracy

Oddly enough, I'd take the British Crown over Chinese emperors. This is because in England the crown evolved relatively well throughout the 2nd millennium. This is in sharp contrast to the rigidly authoritarian Chinese emperors and their unyielding dynasties in China during the same period.

I'm speaking of being English in England/Britain and of being Chinese in China. HKG developed only because Britain separated it from China and it developed exceedingly well.

In the West monarchy yielded its presumed Divine Right in one way or another. In China, the absolutely uncompromising Celestial Kingdom continues unrelentingly.

Which is why the vast majority in Hong Kong consider themselves Hong Kongers and not Chinese. One hundred years of British rule in HKG showed Hong Kongers the fundamental difference between John Locke and Confucius.

And it's Locke by a landslide.

Hong Kongers demonstrate for UK style democracy, Oct. 1, 2014

[wabothai]

Every time i hear the word "china" i get a bad taste in my mouth.

[LawrenceChee]

Every time i hear the word "china" i get a bad taste in my mouth.

I think you should try the brand of mouthwash called "anti-racism" and get that bad breathe out...hopefully it still not too late to help

[Johpa]

Every time i hear the word "china" i get a bad taste in my mouth.

I think you should try the brand of mouthwash called "anti-racism" and get that bad breathe out...hopefully it still not too late to help

And why would a revulsion to a particular political system that many of us find noxious be associated with racism. If you want to hear some virulent anti-Chinese (PRC) views then talk to anyone from Taiwan. Are they to racist?

[LawrenceChee]

Every time i hear the word "china" i get a bad taste in my mouth.

I think you should try the brand of mouthwash called "anti-racism" and get that bad breathe out...hopefully it still not too late to help

And why would a revulsion to a particular political system that many of us find noxious be associated with racism. If you want to hear some virulent anti-Chinese (PRC) views then talk to anyone from Taiwan. Are they to racist?

If the revulsion is for the political system there is a particular poster who is quite prolific in his description in that

Perhaps you best learn how to copy some of the terms used instead of using the country name

Even the Taiwanese who hates the CCP is at their core Chinese as a race ...if you hate your own race , not much to say or comment after that.

It becomes blind hate which is sad

Room for improvement for sure for PRC visitors as they travel around the world and are still learning worldwide acceptable cultures and behavior but they are learning fast

[bkkcanuck8]

Every time i hear the word "china" i get a bad taste in my mouth.

I think you should try the brand of mouthwash called "anti-racism" and get that bad breathe out...hopefully it still not too late to help

And why would a revulsion to a particular political system that many of us find noxious be associated with racism. If you want to hear some virulent anti-Chinese (PRC) views then talk to anyone from Taiwan. Are they to racist?

If the revulsion is for the political system there is a particular poster who is quite prolific in his description in that

Perhaps you best learn how to copy some of the terms used instead of using the country name

Even the Taiwanese who hates the CCP is at their core Chinese as a race ...if you hate your own race , not much to say or comment after that.

It becomes blind hate which is sad

Room for improvement for sure for PRC visitors as they travel around the world and are still learning worldwide acceptable cultures and behavior but they are learning fast

Taiwanese are made up of both native Taiwanese and Chinese immigrants.

[Publicus]

Authoritarians in a dictatorship don't argue amongst themselves in public but that does not mean they don't argue. Right now the knives are out over what to do about Hong Kong's Umbrella Revolution.

Hong Kong chief executive CY Leung faces questions over secret $7m payout from Australian firm

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/world-business/hong-kong-chief-executive-cy-leung-faces-questions-over-secret-7m-payout-from-australian-firm-20141008-1134yv.html#ixzz3G2jrr4oQ

While this is a news bulletin to the general public, Leung's deal was never a secret in Beijing. Which brings us to former 'president' Jiang Zemin, Leung's 86 year old very active patron.

(L-R) Chinese Communist Party General Secretary Xi Jinping and his predecessors Hu Jintao and Jiang Zemin arrive for the National Day reception marking the 65th anniversary of the founding of the People's Republic of China at The Great Hall of the People on Sept. 30, 2014, in Beijing, China. (Feng Li/Getty Images) Keep your friends close and your enemies so close you can smell 'em. Curley, Moe, Larry.

Word is Xi had his people leak the news to the Australian paper to put Jiang ally Leung in an untenable position and to embarrass Jiang. Xi's much publicized anti-corruption campaign centers on Jiang's people in positions of power, right up to the chief of State security who just got tossed, the former vice chairman of the Central Military Commission being charged and now the editor of the People's Daily just to name a very few. .

.

Edited by Publicus for spacing.

Edited October 18, 2014 by metisdead
Edited as per fair use policy

[bkkcanuck8]

How about a compromise between the two extremes. The nomination process is open and democratic, but he could be subject to disqualification after the fact by Beijing. It would likely lead to the selection of someone that represents the people more, but Beijing feels that it is able to work with. If Beijing just disqualified people repeatedly, it would become a dangerous embarrassment for them - so my guess is they would be more likely to compromise.

[pmugghc]

What most don't discuss much is the impact the whole Occupy Central movement has on Taiwan, that's the big prize for China. Taiwan is now used to free elections, which Hong Kong never had, but the last governor, Chris Patten, behaved like he had been elected and was very popular in HK. The people of Taiwan won't accept BJ-style "democracy".

[Publicus]

How about a compromise between the two extremes. The nomination process is open and democratic, but he could be subject to disqualification after the fact by Beijing. It would likely lead to the selection of someone that represents the people more, but Beijing feels that it is able to work with. If Beijing just disqualified people repeatedly, it would become a dangerous embarrassment for them - so my guess is they would be more likely to compromise.

The CCP Boyz in Beijing do not accept any of the democracy leaders in HKG who have emerged since the reversion of it to China.

Neither do the Boyz want to see the present generation of Umbrella Revolution leaders become the new leaders of democracy in HKG, which is exactly what the Boyz are watching happen and are in fact creating.

The above all else bottom line in Beijing is that they will not accept an elected chief executive who is not CCP, which few if any democracy advocates in HKG are.

So it's significant there's actually some talk in Beijing of jiggling the nominating committee membership and also of modifying the 50% requirement to access the ballot, but there too are ongoing meetings to discuss the gains and losses of declaring martial law in HKG to end the protests and demonstrations. The dispute is at a standoff in Beijing and in HKG.

As things are, Beijing would choose two or possibly three chief executive candidates to present to the 5 million HKG eligible voters under universal suffrage in 2017. After all the votes are counted Beijing would choose one of 'em. The long and the short of it is HKG can choose any color it likes as long as it's red.

[bkkcanuck8]

The party line about why democracy would not work in China at this time is that there is too high of an undereducated society. I have heard this from many of my mainland chinese friends, but this does not apply with HK... an old girl friend of mine believed that party line for probably 5 years that I knew her, and to be quite honest I did not really challenge it, but Canada finally corrupted her

Yes, the central government is afraid because the reason for it's existence has long since past - and it is the enemy of which it originally supposedly fought.

Democracy does not necessarily provide the best governance, it just provides a bloodless way to toss out the bad ones hoping one day to luck out with a reasonably good one.

Edited October 14, 2014 by bkkcanuck8

[Publicus]

Every time i hear the word "china" i get a bad taste in my mouth.

I think you should try the brand of mouthwash called "anti-racism" and get that bad breathe out...hopefully it still not too late to help

And why would a revulsion to a particular political system that many of us find noxious be associated with racism. If you want to hear some virulent anti-Chinese (PRC) views then talk to anyone from Taiwan. Are they to racist?

<<snip>>

Even the Taiwanese who hates the CCP is at their core Chinese as a race ...if you hate your own race , not much to say or comment after that.It becomes blind hate which is sad.

<<sinp>>

Again and predictably some people try ever so unsuccessfully to frame the concerns of real people in the real world in the antiquated and false terms of race, racism, hate - blind hate besides.

The honest and true equation is self-definition.

When peaceful people define themselves to others, should the rest of us listen to them to respect what they believe, think, say about themselves, or should we presume to reject their self-definition of themselves in their own ordinary lives in their own peaceful place whomever they may be and wherever they are?

The modern and progressive posture is to respect what other peaceful people say they are. The modern way is to honor other people in their self-definition of themselves. Anything to the contrary is presumptuous arrogance rooted in ancient beliefs that are decrepit.

People are who they say they are. We are not who we say we are not. Who in his right mind thinks he can make it be to the contrary. It's a matter of human dignity and it has nothing to do with race or racism.. .

http://collapsechina-notchinese.blogspot.com/2014/03/thousands-in-taiwan-protest-china-trade.html

HONG KONG: "We are not Chinese"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcWqh2mfiVs

Taiwan: We are not HAN China

Tibet: We are not HAN China

Uighurs - "We are not Chinese"

http://collapsechina-notchinese.blogspot.com/2014/03/thousands-in-taiwan-protest-china-trade.html

"East Turkestan people and Muslims have woken up.

China cannot suppress us any more." -- Abdullah Mansour

March 18, 2014

Who is a Chinese?

By Frank Ching

http://collapsechina.blogspot.com/2013/08/who-is-chinese.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2m-krgWJGw&list=UUgFP46yVT-GG4o1TgXn-04Q

Edited October 15, 2014 by Publicus

[h90]

Hong Kong absolutely rejects Beijing's design of Iran style democracy and so does Taiwan.

It is they who are insisting, not the West.

While the West has no say in this sovereign CCP matter, the West does of course support the vast majorities respectively in HKG and on Taiwan.

The people of HKG and of Taiwan are making themselves clear to the Beijing Boyz that democracy is their priority and that the opposition of the CCP Boyz in Beijing is making a great trouble for themselves and for HKG. .

From the amount of people who protested it can't be the vast majority.....I think the vast majority want to live well and earn money and get every year more money. As long as the Communists can do that the vast majority is happy. If there will be an economic crises the politicians in China will be in big troubles.

[Publicus]

Hong Kong absolutely rejects Beijing's design of Iran style democracy and so does Taiwan.

It is they who are insisting, not the West.

While the West has no say in this sovereign CCP matter, the West does of course support the vast majorities respectively in HKG and on Taiwan.

The people of HKG and of Taiwan are making themselves clear to the Beijing Boyz that democracy is their priority and that the opposition of the CCP Boyz in Beijing is making a great trouble for themselves and for HKG. .

From the amount of people who protested it can't be the vast majority.....I think the vast majority want to live well and earn money and get every year more money. As long as the Communists can do that the vast majority is happy. If there will be an economic crises the politicians in China will be in big troubles.

The vast majority in any country never protest anything so spare me the glib banalities in respect of the Umbrella Revolution in Hong Kong.

The CCP's gargantuan property and housing bubble has already begun to burst and the economy continues to grind down ever more slowly.

The state owned banking system is illiquid and the shadow banking system is out of control. Government malfeasance at all levels is unsustainable. The take due to corruption is in the hundreds of billions.

The currently bursting property bubble is setting off the cascade of bubbles bursting in housing, banking, finance, manufacturing and exports....the list gets very long in the CCP economy.

When the other shoe drops in the PRChina, HKG will begin to run free right out from under Beijing's nose.

[h90]

Hong Kong absolutely rejects Beijing's design of Iran style democracy and so does Taiwan.

It is they who are insisting, not the West.

While the West has no say in this sovereign CCP matter, the West does of course support the vast majorities respectively in HKG and on Taiwan.

The people of HKG and of Taiwan are making themselves clear to the Beijing Boyz that democracy is their priority and that the opposition of the CCP Boyz in Beijing is making a great trouble for themselves and for HKG. .

From the amount of people who protested it can't be the vast majority.....I think the vast majority want to live well and earn money and get every year more money. As long as the Communists can do that the vast majority is happy. If there will be an economic crises the politicians in China will be in big troubles.

The vast majority in any country never protest anything so spare me the glib banalities in respect of the Umbrella Revolution in Hong Kong.

The CCP's gargantuan property and housing bubble has already begun to burst and the economy continues to grind down ever more slowly.

The state owned banking system is illiquid and the shadow banking system is out of control. Government malfeasance at all levels is unsustainable. The take due to corruption is in the hundreds of billions.

The currently bursting property bubble is setting off the cascade of bubbles bursting in housing, banking, finance, manufacturing and exports....the list gets very long in the CCP economy.

When the other shoe drops in the PRChina, HKG will begin to run free right out from under Beijing's nose.

You are speaking about vast majorities when there are couple hundreds or thousands are there. Already with signs that they get support from outside.

It is hardly the wish of the people.

Yes when they get the bubble bursting, things will change. But I think they can hold it together, at least for a couple of years. And the have a lot to point at in other countries where it is worse.

So I wouldn't hope that PRC is falling apart like the Soviets.

[Publicus]

Hong Kong absolutely rejects Beijing's design of Iran style democracy and so does Taiwan.

It is they who are insisting, not the West.

While the West has no say in this sovereign CCP matter, the West does of course support the vast majorities respectively in HKG and on Taiwan.

The people of HKG and of Taiwan are making themselves clear to the Beijing Boyz that democracy is their priority and that the opposition of the CCP Boyz in Beijing is making a great trouble for themselves and for HKG. .

From the amount of people who protested it can't be the vast majority.....I think the vast majority want to live well and earn money and get every year more money. As long as the Communists can do that the vast majority is happy. If there will be an economic crises the politicians in China will be in big troubles.

The vast majority in any country never protest anything so spare me the glib banalities in respect of the Umbrella Revolution in Hong Kong.

The CCP's gargantuan property and housing bubble has already begun to burst and the economy continues to grind down ever more slowly.

The state owned banking system is illiquid and the shadow banking system is out of control. Government malfeasance at all levels is unsustainable. The take due to corruption is in the hundreds of billions.

The currently bursting property bubble is setting off the cascade of bubbles bursting in housing, banking, finance, manufacturing and exports....the list gets very long in the CCP economy.

When the other shoe drops in the PRChina, HKG will begin to run free right out from under Beijing's nose.

You are speaking about vast majorities when there are couple hundreds or thousands are there. Already with signs that they get support from outside.

It is hardly the wish of the people.

Yes when they get the bubble bursting, things will change. But I think they can hold it together, at least for a couple of years. And the have a lot to point at in other countries where it is worse.

So I wouldn't hope that PRC is falling apart like the Soviets.

Hope matters not either way.

The reality is that the CCP are taking their PRChina down the crapper.

The current consensus is 2016 and that it's all downhill to there since early this year when the property bubble began its current process of bursting.

Facts. Reality. The markets have it priced in although the fallout will be disruptive to some, uncomfortable to others.

Hope counts for nothing.

[LawrenceChee]

If China fails in terms of its financial markets, the fallout will not be for some or only at the uncomfortable level only ...those that hope only for that is progressively out of touch with the reality of global trade and its inter dependency ...the fallout of the 2nd biggest economy cannot happen.

[LawrenceChee]

The IMF agrees with its reforms and the Chinese leadership stance in slower growth to tackle both its pollution index and also its structural weaknesses in the market

This year they are projecting 7.5% as a reasonable growth rate ...as it progressive shrinks , the world would adapt to manage that as their GDP will also be inversely affected by a slower China ...

go ask the Aussies if they still feel this lucky this last two years as its trade is dependent only largely on China's success and demand for raw materials and it has been slowing down

Similarly when a place gets the jinks like Hong Kong now , it's affects the everyday living and not everyone is amused by it ...there is a spilt in the group and 200,000 even at the height of its dissatisfaction is not the majority of opinion in a country with millions of HK residents

Most people want life to go back to its normalcy and roads reopened

Edited October 15, 2014 by LawrenceChee