Cross generational gay PDAs on Pattaya baht buses

[Jingthing]

PDA meaning Public Displays of Affection.

Posted on the gay forum rather than the Pattaya forum intentionally.

OK, I know not all of you are familiar with Pattaya now and in the past, but the general feel and tourism demographic has changed a lot over the years.

So last night on a Pattaya baht bus (early evening) there was an older white man being overly feely feely with a young Thai man (PDA -- public display of affection).

Well 10 years ago this would be more common as Pattaya was much less of a "family" and non sex tourism kind of place back then.

Now in Pattaya there are a lot of Russian and Middle eastern tourists and westerners as well that are not exactly what you would mostly describe as gay friendly / tolerant.

Like it or not Pattaya is MUCH more mainstream.

Also not being very late at night I think makes a difference ...

Anyway, this scene on the bus made me think. If it was the much more common scene of an older white man, younger Thai woman ... I wouldn't have given it a second thought. Even though most people (including me) would conclude it's probably a commercial thing.

But honestly I questioned the wisdom of this couple being so physical in the social environment that now exists in Pattaya. First of all, I could visibly see other passengers looking uncomfortable, staring, even wincing. I am sure reactions could be worse than that. Why behave in this way when anyone with common sense can FEEL it is not the safest environment to do so?

I am not judging what these two guys might want to do in private, but this was very public. While I assume it was probably of a commercial nature, that isn't the point. The scene was not only same sexual but also there is the taboo element of vastly different ages. Most people just don't want to see that in public outside of a specialized space perhaps like inside a bar or gay beach. No I am not saying there was anything X rated going on. There was not.

I would like to differentiate the type of behavior from more innocent scenes (much more common) of two gay men (or straight as in Indian culture) walking down the street JUST holding hands. While I know that behavior can also get homophobic reactions, to me that's kind of SWEET, and certainly not the same thing as a sexually suggestive kind of PAWING.

So I guess I maybe should have titled this SEXUALLY suggestive PDAs instead of just PDAs.

Any comments? About this issue in GENERAL. Obviously the one case I am describing is not a "one off" as it were ... it's just not as common here as it used to be.

BTW, comments are welcome from all, gay or not. but if you are not familiar with rules of the GAY FORUM I suggest learning about them before posting, especially if you are inclined to post in a homophobic manner. (Simply -- DON'T!)

Edited October 13, 2014 by Jingthing

[isanbirder]

I agree with you, JT, that PDAs in this context would be better avoided, though like you, I can't see the objection to holding hands. Why, even conservative gays like myself do that!

But is it really any worse than the blatantly sexual displays which you see in a Gay Pride event?

I don't see the advantage in any behaviour which upsets "the others" (do what we like in our own gay venues, but not outside). After all, because we are a fairly small minority, we are dependent on "the others" to get what we want.... such as gay marriage, or even the liberty to be gay, which people in so many countries do not have,

Just my viewpoint (which in this restricted instance seems to agree with yours_). Many people on this forum, and you, JT, I'm sure, will want to speak up for Gay Pride in this context, and that's fine. What we are all about is diversity, after all.

[Jingthing]

I'd rather not see this thread become yet another debate about gay pride parades! Been there ... done that. PLEASE if people want to talk about that (AGAIN), do it on ANOTHER thread.

ANOTHER strong reason that I feel discussion of gay parades is very OFF TOPIC for this topic is that people attend gay parades KNOWING they are entering a gay space.

BUT ... I sincerely do see the political element in discussing and criticizing the kind of behavior described in the OP.

For example ... Pattaya gets lots of Russians. In Russia, it has been widely reported that the majority of people feel strong associations between gay people and pedophilia.

Many people see an older man and a legal aged younger man and incorrectly see that as pedophilia behavior as well, which of course, it isn't when they younger guy isn't actually a child, but realistically for Russians and people from similar anti-gay cultures to see that would REINFORCE that bigoted thinking.

So they're giving the haters AMMUNITION.

Now I realize not everyone who's doing feely feely on the bus is thinking about gay civil rights politics ... but maybe they should be.

I am also kind of personally uncomfortable that I seem to be feeling a kind of double standard myself about this. Like I said, I wouldn't have a critical reaction to a similar straight couple (would just look away!), but I did do this.

I guess there is no such thing as perfect equality. In most environments more people are going to wince at the gay couple doing this than the straight one. No amount of civil rights legislation is probably EVER going to change that.

Also this example is kind of a doubly whammy. The gay thing plus the cross generational thing (perhaps three when you add the assumed commercial sex thing).

Consider a more vanilla example (which I have seen) ... two attractive young Russian men, same age, obviously not commercial, acting in a similar way on a baht bus. I think not as much of a problem as far as people's reactions. Not to mention, I guess I lied, now I am mentioning more people would actually be interested in SEEING that as well!

Edited October 13, 2014 by Jingthing

[rgs2001uk]

I was in a hotel in Pattaya last week, at the breakfast buffet in the morning was a farang and his ho de jour, the farang had his hands all over her ass, and tits, perfectly acceptable in the bedroom, perfectly acceptable in one of Pattayas many knocking shops.

Listening to the conversations of the ever so unconfrontational Thais who all thought this was unacceptabale but wouldnt say anything I did.

I spoke to the girl in Thai and told her this was "mai riap roy", personally I didnt care, the fact I had two young kids with me pissed me off, the mrs was more pissed off at me for confronting this girl.

Before I get acused on anti anything, it bothers me not to walk up the soi holding a Thai male friends hand, if a Thai male puts his hand on my thigh it bothers me not, if he puts his arm round my shoulder it bothers me not, its a sign of acceptance, and perfectly acceptable in normal Thai situations.

JT, what you observed is nothing to do with being gay, its to do with with whats acceptable in Thai society (whether I agree with it or not).

Anyway, this scene on the bus made me think. If it was the much more common scene of an older white man, younger Thai woman

It pisses the normal Thais off just as much, Little Miss Issan wouldnt ever consider that sort of behaviour in her village, so why should Pattaya make it acceptable?

[Jingthing]

Funny, I thought I explained rather well the gay specific aspects of this issue. If nobody wants to respond to the actual topic, that is fine. It won't be the first or the last thread that I start with high hopes of a productive ON TOPIC discussion which turn out to be a total dud. It's funny how hard it is sometimes to predict which topics will find ON TOPIC resonance and which won't.

Of course, there is even less chance of a gay forum topic catching on. There are so few active gay posters here and anti-gay posts are not allowed.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Jingthing

[isanbirder]

No, I don't want to get involved in yet another Gay Pride argument. That wasn't really my point.

Of course people who go to Gay Pride parades go there knowing what it will be like, and I'm not concerned with those. I am concerned with the effect on passers-by, which IMO is of the same nature as objecting to the behaviour of the couple on the baht bus. In both cases it can turn neutral people against gays in general.

And I very strongly agree with your point about paedophilia. The homophobic minority is all too ready to accuse all gays of this.

[onthemoon]

I am referring directly to the OP. Had I not known that this was written by someone who otherwise depends gay rights, I would have thought it was written by a bigot Christian-right extremist.

So, if it were a Thai girl instead of a boy, it would be OK?

We should hide ourselves again after all the freedoms we have fought for over the decades, because there are Russians and Middle-Easterners, who would not understand? I think they should learn that this is Thailand, not their country.

That said, I don't think it is appropriate to display affection so strongly in public, regardless of whether the couple is same-sex or opposite sex. If you say only gays should refrain, I take offence based on discrimination for sexual orientation.

I am so disappointed to read in this forum that gays should feel ashamed of being gay.

Edited October 14, 2014 by onthemoon

[Jingthing]

Thanks, onthemoon. I appreciate that you have expressed your very on topic POV.

Of course I am not suggesting that gay people should be ashamed of their sexuality. I am suggesting that they exercise common sense about the environment they are in at any given time regarding how they display their sexuality IN PUBLIC.

Let me give another example about another minority group. Jews.

In Thailand, would you think it would be a wise choice for an identifiable Jew wearing a yarmulke to go eat at an Arabic restaurant filled with mostly Muslim people from various parts of the world? Perhaps wearing a large star of David necklace as well? Oh, heck, why fool around, how about wearing an IDF t-shirt as well?

I can tell you that would be an insane thing to do in today's time in Thailand.

Such a Jew is obviously not "ashamed" to be a Jew but there is a difference from that and being aware of your social surroundings and deciding to act sensibly.

Now mostly such gay couples as I described specifically on a baht bus in Pattaya acting out sexually would not really be in much risk of physical assault due to homophobic reactions. But they would definitely be at a greater risk than a similar straight couple.

Perfect "equality" is an illusion. It never happens in the real world. It can happen in laws. Period. That is never the same thing as actual real life.

About gay romantic hand holding -- I have expressed I think people should feel OK to do that if they feel it in today's Pattaya, even though they will get some predictable homophobic reactions, and there is also a small risk of a violent reaction in certain settings.

That said ... would you suggest for the sake of proclaiming not "being ashamed" that a romantic gay couple hold hands even in the most gay hostile settings in the world? I would say, use common sense and feel out the situation.

In real life, everything is a case by case.

Also, no I am not really saying straight people SHOULD act out sexually in public and gay people SHOULDN'T. But again, IN REAL LIFE, both straight and gay people DO act out sexuality in public, and because gay people are a small unpopular minority in the world, the real life implications are NOT THE SAME. Like it or not. Of course I don't like it, just being real.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Jingthing

[isanbirder]

I don't care about the Russians and Middle-Easterners, but this is Thailand. In Thailand we have a reluctant acceptance, no official gay recognition; we simply do not have all the rights onthemoon says we have fought for.

Thai straights and gays would probably be disgusted with the behaviour JT discusses, whether it is man and boy or man and girl. I don't think it is a specifically gay thing, but as JT says, we are still a (unpopular?) minority, and we still want political acceptance here.

And let's get something clear. This is not about affection, this is about sex. I think most Thai people are quite conscious of public behaviour; it is very much a society where what you see is what matters.

[Scott]

I am not a big fan of PDA in general, whether gay or straight. I feel very mild discomfort with public affection, but I feel quite uncomfortable with sexual displays. Unfortunately, many of these displays are sexual in nature and not just affectionate.

In a specific area, like Boyztown or Silom Soi 4, I am not bothered by any type of display of anything.

I'd prefer not to be on a public bus or sitting in a restaurant with people exchanging bodily fluids. Behavior like that should be confined to a cubicle in a public restroom!

[onthemoon]

No, JT I cannot agree with you. Your argumentation is in line with Putin, and with the extreme right-wing Christians in the US.

1. If you are talking about public display of love and affection, I see no reason in Thailand (and some European countries, for example) why gay people should go back into the closet. I am not talking about countries hostile to gay people, like Uganda, Russia or wide parts of the US.

2. It is ridiculous to compare an affectionate gay couple in Thailand with a Jew coming into a violently-hostile anti-Jewish bar. If you are saying that this compares to being gay in Thailand, you are mixing Thailand up with Uganda.

3. I never said that you said that straight people should get all feely-feely in public (that would be public display of sexual attraction rather than public display of love and affection), why do you put these words in my mouth. I said that this behaviour is inappropriate and more importantly, I said that I do not make a difference between gay and straight couples. Saying that especially gay people should refrain from doing it is discriminatory and therefore anti-gay; all people should refrain, period.

Kindly note that I have been advocating gay pride for decades. I will not stop this just because you now suddenly want gays to go back into their closets and show more restraint than straight people. I think you are on a dangerously wrong track.

[onthemoon]

I don't care about the Russians and Middle-Easterners, but this is Thailand. In Thailand we have a reluctant acceptance, no official gay recognition; we simply do not have all the rights onthemoon says we have fought for.

Thai straights and gays would probably be disgusted with the behaviour JT discusses, whether it is man and boy or man and girl. I don't think it is a specifically gay thing, but as JT says, we are still a (unpopular?) minority, and we still want political acceptance here.

And let's get something clear. This is not about affection, this is about sex. I think most Thai people are quite conscious of public behaviour; it is very much a society where what you see is what matters.

There is no country yet (outside of the Castro, which is another planet) where being gay is fully accepted. However, we have come far in the last decades, and only because many gay people and gay couples have come out of the closet and changed the minds of the general population. Nowadays, almost everybody knows a gay person and finds that they are not devils - this would not be so if gays had stuck in their closets.

Also, many young gay people still commit suicide every day because they feel they are not accepted. I have no statistics but would bet that the number decreases with more visibility of gay people in everyday life. Thus, you are actually saving lives by being out of the closet.

The gay-pride fighters in Uganda are heroes. So, I would be careful there too. In Thailand, we are in no danger. We are waiting for gay marriage, which means we are moaning on a very high level! Let's get real, we are not really unpopular here. I for one have never had a problem being gay, and I am openly gay in business (no, I am not a hairdresser), with my friends (most of who are straight) and of course in the family (for who I am not the main provider / ATM).

Edited October 17, 2014 by onthemoon

[Jingthing]

...

Your argumentation is in line with Putin, and with the extreme right-wing Christians in the US.

...

I am not going to dignify this with any kind of response. Good night.

[AyG]

These inappropriate displays of affection aren't just a problem in Pattaya, they're also a problem in the UK.

One bus driver had to eject a gay couple for their spit-swapping.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-bus-driver-allegedly-kicks-gay-couple-off-for-kissing-9805597.html

Such behaviour is, in my (perhaps old fashioned) thinking, never appropriate in public, whether by people of the same sex or otherwise. They should have kept it to the privacy of their own home.

I don't condone the bus driver's language, but then neither do I condone the couple's vulgar and inappropriate behaviour.

In Thailand, a country where even holding hands is considered inappropriate by the conservative majority, physical displays of affection are simply wrong.

[Jingthing]

Community standards are different in Pattaya. The tourist part anyway.

[AyG]

Community standards are different in Pattaya. The tourist part anyway.

Do you mean the standards of the sex tourist part? And aren't there plenty of people there who aren't whores or whoremongers who don't deserve to be affronted by wholly inappropriate displays of public lust?

Just because there are some people who are inconsiderate, rude, vulgar, indecent, offensive, lewd or salacious does not (in my opinion) make such behaviour acceptable at all. It's not a case of one standard for Pattaya and another for the rest of the country.

Unfortunately, parts of Thailand have been influenced by Western mores where such crude behaviour in public is, at least by some, deemed acceptable.

[HooHaa]

live and let live or avoid the baht bus. public transport is public, you will not always like or approve of other users

[Scott]

It's a little confusing because it's a fine line between a public display of affection and sexual behavior.

But context and place does make a difference. What doesn't bother me in Boyztown or Silom would leave me uncomfortable at the local temple. So, it does make a difference where you are.

What will barely turn a head in Bangkok, might be quite offensive in a small village in the a remote area.

[AyG]

live and let live or avoid the baht bus. public transport is public, you will not always like or approve of other users

Surely, society is based upon politeness - not offending the feelings or sensibilities of others.

Why should someone have to avoid a particular form of transport because others lack even the basics of civilised behaviour?

Civilised behaviour should be the norm; we are human beings, not rutting animals.

[jdinasia]

I simply cannot be bothered to care what other people think about my public behavior. If you don't like it look away, get off the truck, close your eyes. As long as what I am doing isn't illegal it is just none of your business.

[Jingthing]

I did bring up the two general aspects to this which are not the same thing.

Affection including romantic affection, hand holding, etc.

Sexual touching.

I didn't go into actual on the street public sex acts as not many people are going to argue that is ever acceptable anywhere if you can be seen.

[Ashto]

Jingthing on 14-10-2014 drew a aanalogy between a baht bus in Pattaya and a Muslim restaurant. They are quite different in my respectful view. A baht bus is an "everybody" space and no particular group (eg Muslims) is entitled to special treatment. So on a baht bus the Muslim must accept a Jew wearing elaborate Jewish regalia and not show any disrespect.

The test for gay behaviour on a baht bus is exactly the same as for straight behaviour. Everyone on the bus must treat gay behaviour as they would treat straight behaviour there. A gay couple is entitled to act in the same way as a straight couple may act.

Whether people on the bus are entitled to purse their lips or worse if a couple, gay or straight, are very different in age or race is a question of age or race discrimination and presumably for a general forum, not this gay forum.

Whether it is physically safe for a PDA in any particular situation is separate from the question of whether it is ehtically, morally, socially or culturally proper in that particular situation. It is very important in my view to keep the question of safety well away from the question of propriety as safety is frequently used to conceal disapproval, ie "Well, of course I don't think there's anything wrong with it but the Russians will beat you up so you shouldn't do it".

[Jingthing]

What people "must" do and what they often do do is often quite different.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Jingthing

[Ashto]

Quite. Which is the reason for the last para of my post. The fact that people frequently breach rules of conduct doesn't alter the truth of the rule. Murder remains wrong even though it regularly occurs.

[Jingthing]

Don't shoot the messenger.

I brought up an issue that isn't going to go away.

You can't just wish it away, or act like it doesn't exist.

Because it does.

A news event from England:

if this was a hetero couple just kissing this driver wouldn't have reacted.

We ARE treated and regarded differently, obviously different levels of that in different countries and different specific environments in different countries.

In this news case, of course the driver was wrong, and the gay couple was in their rights to kiss.

I am certainly not suggesting they shouldn't have kissed if that's what they want to do.

Also just kissing is not the same as public sex play which I alluded to in the observed incident in the OP.

Imagine if this gay couple had just kissed like this on a bus in IRAN?

Should they be allowed to? Yes.

But they aren't.

They would be INSANE to do that in Iran unless they were intentionally self destructive.

But this British case shows again, equality of laws does not equate in real life to equality of social REACTION.

The gay civil rights perfect equality utopia is pure fantasy, Cloud Cuckoo Land, and will never exist.

That doesn't overly bother me, I don't expect any kind of perfection in this world, ... I think we're ahead of the game if people just don't shoot us (as they do in many countries still).

Yes, DUH, of course gay people globally should fight for a LOT more than just not being shot and that includes the ideal of full legal equality in every country.

But just as that is not really going to ever happen in every country, even in gay equality countries, homophobia will live on, similar to how societies can NEVER expect to fully suppress racism, sexism, antisemitism, etc.

A same-sex couple in southeast London's Blackheath borough say they were thrown off a bus after a quick kiss by a bus driver who spat homophobic slurs,reports the London Evening Standard.

http://www.advocate.com/world/2014/10/20/same-sex-couples-kiss-sparks-uk-bus-drivers-antigay-rant

Edited October 21, 2014 by Jingthing

[sustento]

The gay civil rights perfect equality utopia is pure fantasy, Cloud Cuckoo Land, and will never exist.

Utopia is pure fantasy. It was invented by Thomas More as a title to a book in 1516. If you're expecting perfect civil rights of any description better hunker down for a looooong wait.

[jdinasia]

The gay civil rights perfect equality utopia is pure fantasy, Cloud Cuckoo Land, and will never exist.

Utopia is pure fantasy. It was invented by Thomas More as a title to a book in 1516. If you're expecting perfect civil rights of any description better hunker down for a looooong wait.

Or simply go about your life ignoring asshats that want to tell you how to behave. No hiding or hunkering down. Just living a life that makes you content.

[KED]

I was in a hotel in Pattaya last week, at the breakfast buffet in the morning was a farang and his ho de jour, the farang had his hands all over her ass, and tits, perfectly acceptable in the bedroom, perfectly acceptable in one of Pattayas many knocking shops.

Listening to the conversations of the ever so unconfrontational Thais who all thought this was unacceptabale but wouldnt say anything I did.

I spoke to the girl in Thai and told her this was "mai riap roy", personally I didnt care, the fact I had two young kids with me pissed me off, the mrs was more pissed off at me for confronting this girl.

Before I get acused on anti anything, it bothers me not to walk up the soi holding a Thai male friends hand, if a Thai male puts his hand on my thigh it bothers me not, if he puts his arm round my shoulder it bothers me not, its a sign of acceptance, and perfectly acceptable in normal Thai situations.

JT, what you observed is nothing to do with being gay, its to do with with whats acceptable in Thai society (whether I agree with it or not).

Anyway, this scene on the bus made me think. If it was the much more common scene of an older white man, younger Thai woman

It pisses the normal Thais off just as much, Little Miss Issan wouldnt ever consider that sort of behaviour in her village, so why should Pattaya make it acceptable?

I do think it is interesting and relevant that a straight viewpoint finds extremel displays of PDA from a heterosexual couple is just as objectionabe as from a gay couple, but I do have two follow up questions.

1. What if the hetero couple were just holding hands or lightly kissing without the groping - and the same from a gay couple. If you were at a hotel breakfast with your wife and kids and a gay couple were holiding hands with the occasional light kiss - would you find it uncomfortable with your Thai wife and kids or no?

2. I agree if the couple were groping each other - I would have also said something to them or to management and have the situation addressed - but if you decided to speak to the couple - why to the Thai woman and not to the farang?? I think the farang was the one in the controlling situation and perhaps the Thai woman did not feel comfortable correcting the farang's advances.

not meant to be confrontation - but really interested in your viewpoint.

Continuing on the hread - I would like to echo the idea of civil rights - as a gay man - I want to feel just as comfortable holidng my bf's hand and showing subtle affection as would a straight couple - I don't think it is appropriate for a straight or gay couple to share tongues in public or start undressing or put hands on private aras in public - but I don't want to edit my natural emotions to hold my bf's hand in public or behave the same as a straight couple in public would when in love because my love is just as real and strong as anyones.

[Jingthing]

The gay civil rights perfect equality utopia is pure fantasy, Cloud Cuckoo Land, and will never exist.

Utopia is pure fantasy. It was invented by Thomas More as a title to a book in 1516. If you're expecting perfect civil rights of any description better hunker down for a looooong wait.

Or simply go about your life ignoring asshats that want to tell you how to behave. No hiding or hunkering down. Just living a life that makes you content.

Asshats? Do they come in mauve?

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[sustento]

The gay civil rights perfect equality utopia is pure fantasy, Cloud Cuckoo Land, and will never exist.

Utopia is pure fantasy. It was invented by Thomas More as a title to a book in 1516. If you're expecting perfect civil rights of any description better hunker down for a looooong wait.

Or simply go about your life ignoring asshats that want to tell you how to behave. No hiding or hunkering down. Just living a life that makes you content.

Asshats? Do they come in mauve?

I have to admit I have some difficulty imaging what an asshat looks like. Like this perhaps? This is obviously an English asshat...

Edited October 22, 2014 by sustento