Foreign tourist arrivals in Thailand drop 10.28 percent

[samuibeachcomber]

The one positive thing is TAT has been muzzled, it appears. Perhaps someone with integrity was asked to provide accurate information, for a change.

Great care was taken not to mention the islands, but again this was an opportunity missed, they could express condolences and support for (real) justice to be served.

Besides, KT is not symbolic of all the islands - far from it I would hope.

Compare the " social structures" in places like KPN and KS and you will find them all about even Stevens in the way they operate with "families and police of great influence". They are all an organ of the same functioning living organism. Don't believe anything different. If KT is exposed KPN and KS will follow. Protecting KT is not what this entire cover up is about. Only a part of what it is about. All three islands are covering each other at this very moment. Watch this space.

You are correct all 3 islands are run by rich influential thai families who have the local police in their pocket.Nothing will ever change,not even the army will be able to effect change.For expats living here its either"put up with it or get out"...and i think the time is fast approaching when decisions "to stay or not to stay"...are going to have to be made sooner rather than later.

[samuibeachcomber]

Besides, KT is not symbolic of all the islands - far from it I would hope.

From what I have seen, KT is a perfect example of all the islands.

Rape, murder, violence, gang control and mafia.

your post is spot on!

Why don't you guys at least attempt to add something of value to the discussion, instead of really lame one-liners - oops sorry AOA managed two...

because i have just joined this topic that is now 9 pages long and i am viewing each post as i go along.So if its ok with you i will continue to do so until i finally reach the last page and probably by then all with have been said and i will no longer have anything to add.

[Yann55]

The one positive thing is TAT has been muzzled, it appears. Perhaps someone with integrity was asked to provide accurate information, for a change.

Great care was taken not to mention the islands, but again this was an opportunity missed, they could express condolences and support for (real) justice to be served.

Besides, KT is not symbolic of all the islands - far from it I would hope.

About your hope... I'm afraid it's wishful thinking, pal.

The five common points of all the islands in LOS are :

1. They're run by a limited number of clans who act like there's no law, simply because

2. they bribe the local authorities who are not numerous and therefore easily 'bought',

3. The locals usually have little or no idea about how to run a tourist business in a logical, rational and profitable way, but the profit comes in anyway so why should they care ?

4. The locals work as little as possible and hire an impressive proportion of illegal migrant workers, with very little legal risk (see point 2). Those migrant workers are paid a ridiculous amount, sleep and live in spartan conditions, are ill-treated and looked down upon by the locals, and have absolutely no sex life (Thai girls would not touch them even with a space suit on, prostitutes are not within their means and there are very few migrant girls because it would be extremely dangerous for them and they know it). These guys are therefore walking pressure cookers waiting to explode,

5. The locals have an insular mentality (not specific to Thai islands but can be seen in all islands around the world) which means they dislike anyone who is not from the island. Of course they learn to hide their contempt because they are not stupid and do realize that it's not good for business, but it oozes out of their attitude in a million ways for anyone who is minimally observant.

Well, perhaps. I was only hoping...

My thinking was that there have been no gruesome double murder and rape cases, on any of the islands in the past 10 years that I can recall. This is a particularly vicious crime and while I agree there are dangerous elements around, most would not carry out such a heinous crime through fear of community retribution. KT community has been silenced; perhaps they are not complicit, and any statements given are sealed, or vanished. Not typical of any island, but typical of Thailand.

So. not gonna argue your points because they are mostly true I guess. Point 4 is what has changed the most in the past few years? Perhaps becoming slave-masters removed the last semblance of decency and pride: Bahtism has displaced Buddhism.

I cannot agree the current KT murders were carried out by 'horny' migrants, acting solo but I can see how opaque Thai culture has become.

Hi again and thanks for your interesting reply, which gets me thinking further, and that's what Forums are for, right ?

1. I can recall at least one case of rape and murder in the past 10 years and it took place in Koh Samet. Quite gruesome too. Thing is most of us don't keep track of the news so it's difficult to remember precisely what and when, but perhaps other TV members can recall other events ? I'm pretty convinced, sadly, that the Koh Samet and Koh Tao cases were not the only ones in the last decade.

2. To say that the Koh Tao community are not complicit is, in my opinion, not accurate. Islanders create and benefit from a situation which is likely to cause all kinds of problems, including violence. Just like there is such a thing as 'passive aggressiveness' I do believe in 'passive complicity', which Western Law identifies as 'failure to assist a person in danger'.

3. You are sooo right about 'Bahtism vs Buddhism', although it must be said in all honesty that this trend is not limited to Thailand and/or to Buddhism, of course.

4. I never said or even hinted that the murders in Koh Tao were actually committed by 'horny migrants'. Please read again what I did say. My point was that local islanders are more likely to commit crimes because they feel that the law is 'under (their) control' somehow and migrants are also more likely to commit crimes because they live in a situation of neediness, frustration and humiliation. The result being that, paradoxically, those 'paradise islands' are objectively more dangerous than the mainland.

Again, thanks for your input.

[MJP]

Had no idea there was one on Samet. I lived there ten years ago.

[Alainpm]

Then why are all my favorite hotels charging higher advertised rates this year than the same months last year?

a few months back in a similiar thread a poster revealed what a receptionist leaked: the owners are compensating for the recent loss of business.

(TIT)

I'll arrive this friday to Samui from France. i'll have all my time to walk around and pick the best hotel bargain. It's simple maths : if they want me, they will have to lower the price or i'll go next door. Just simple as that.

[wilcopops]

Then why are all my favorite hotels charging higher advertised rates this year than the same months last year?

a few months back in a similiar thread a poster revealed what a receptionist leaked: the owners are compensating for the recent loss of business.

(TIT)

I'll arrive this friday to Samui from France. i'll have all my time to walk around and pick the best hotel bargain. It's simple maths : if they want me, they will have to lower the price or i'll go next door. Just simple as that.

let us know how you get on! e.g. how many "next doors" you try...in a market controlled by a local "mafia"?

[utalkin2me]

Then why are all my favorite hotels charging higher advertised rates this year than the same months last year?

Because they are using Thai-logic... When demand is low, then raise the prices to recover the lost revenue.

Thai logic perpetuated by dumb ass tourists much like ourselves.

[samuibeachcomber]

The one positive thing is TAT has been muzzled, it appears. Perhaps someone with integrity was asked to provide accurate information, for a change.

Great care was taken not to mention the islands, but again this was an opportunity missed, they could express condolences and support for (real) justice to be served.

Besides, KT is not symbolic of all the islands - far from it I would hope.

yeah, there must be at least 1 island where the locals arnt afraid to kill you because theyre untouchable..............anyone know that island????

The island of DR.Moreau perhaps.............................it certainly aint Samui!

[wilcopops]

Raising prices when demand drops is not just a Thai thing. Same in Vietnam. Must be Asian economic theory.

but this is a Thai forum, just because it is done elsewhere, doesn't mitigate the practice, does it?

Edited October 15, 2014 by wilcopops

[Kru Baa]

Maybe tourist don't like the idea of going there, getting raped and murdered and then have the police cover it up as to protect some prominent Thai families' kids from persecution. Or could just be air fair prices. Just a guess

[Alainpm]

Then why are all my favorite hotels charging higher advertised rates this year than the same months last year?

a few months back in a similiar thread a poster revealed what a receptionist leaked: the owners are compensating for the recent loss of business.

(TIT)

I'll arrive this friday to Samui from France. i'll have all my time to walk around and pick the best hotel bargain. It's simple maths : if they want me, they will have to lower the price or i'll go next door. Just simple as that.

let us know how you get on! e.g. how many "next doors" you try...in a market controlled by a local "mafia"?

Sure ! I'll update that this saturday. If there's a problem, I swim. Mafias can't swim. hehe !

Edited October 15, 2014 by Alainpm

[khunpa]

Then why are all my favorite hotels charging higher advertised rates this year than the same months last year?

Because they are using Thai-logic... When demand is low, then raise the prices to recover the lost revenue.

That's the same logic that Arab drivers used in UAE. The few days with rain there during the year the drivers drove faster in order to not spend so long time on the dangerous conditions on the roads. It usually ended up with a mass-pileup of nice cars. :-)

Yep, same thing. Totally idiotic, but when you are dealing with people that refuse to learn new stuff and blame everything on lack of "luck", then not much point in using more energy on it. Same as wanting to learn a chimp how to fly a space ship.

[ParadiseLost]

Hi again and thanks for your interesting reply, which gets me thinking further, and that's what Forums are for, right ?

1. I can recall at least one case of rape and murder in the past 10 years and it took place in Koh Samet. Quite gruesome too. Thing is most of us don't keep track of the news so it's difficult to remember precisely what and when, but perhaps other TV members can recall other events ? I'm pretty convinced, sadly, that the Koh Samet and Koh Tao cases were not the only ones in the last decade.

2. To say that the Koh Tao community are not complicit is, in my opinion, not accurate. Islanders create and benefit from a situation which is likely to cause all kinds of problems, including violence. Just like there is such a thing as 'passive aggressiveness' I do believe in 'passive complicity', which Western Law identifies as 'failure to assist a person in danger'.

3. You are sooo right about 'Bahtism vs Buddhism', although it must be said in all honesty that this trend is not limited to Thailand and/or to Buddhism, of course.

4. I never said or even hinted that the murders in Koh Tao were actually committed by 'horny migrants'. Please read again what I did say. My point was that local islanders are more likely to commit crimes because they feel that the law is 'under (their) control' somehow and migrants are also more likely to commit crimes because they live in a situation of neediness, frustration and humiliation. The result being that, paradoxically, those 'paradise islands' are objectively more dangerous than the mainland.

Again, thanks for your input.

I can recall 3 murders of westerners on KP over the past 9 years - a Thai guy who killed a (delusional) woman spreading rumours about him (who was caught and jailed) (probably free today). Two in Had Rin, one most likely accidental.

Please understand I am not trying to stand up for the criminal element, only trying to show that the islands are not deathly, other than from motorcycle accidents anyway. And, yes I hardly expect I know of all the deaths here. However, I have never felt threatened here. Until now.

Point 2 above - I felt the same way, up until today. After reading an article here or somewhere It suddenly occurred to me that there may have been more than one fleeing early that morning and that is most likely why the truth is not allowed to come out. Nothing short of that would silence an entire community.

Actually my last statement wasn't directed at you at all; I was not thinking of your opinion, merely expressing mine - which it turns out is the same.

Either way, I like to debate facts with opposing camps, as them people only talking to them that agree, are usually only seeking validation - not the truth.

Thank you for your input.

EdIt: I agree people on KT have been guilty of allowing such a lawless situation to grow out of control, but I am speaking more specifically about this case. Not one whisper...

Edited October 15, 2014 by ParadiseLost

[samuibeachcomber]

I can only speak for whats happening on Koh Samui................and i and a good many other expats see a growing anger,resentment,and aggressiveness towards tourists and expats a like.I have no idea why but it could be many factors like the army trying to crackdown on known mafia elements,lose of income due to less people,i really have no idea why but can feel and sense the change.

[thailiketoo]

I can only speak for whats happening on Koh Samui................and i and a good many other expats see a growing anger,resentment,and aggressiveness towards tourists and expats a like.I have no idea why but it could be many factors like the army trying to crackdown on known mafia elements,lose of income due to less people,i really have no idea why but can feel and sense the change.

So why do you stay. Show the buggers who's boss and leave.

[Jip66]

Those New Years calendars should do the job...

Sure thing......

This New Year stuff. As I recall, last year Pattaya announced it held the world record for the longest New Year countdown.

So, what did that mean. Well, I went down to have a look about a week before New Year. It seemed to me to be simply putting up loads of stalls selling the usual food and junk clothing. Maybe I missed something. I'm sure other posters will tell me if I did.

Anyway, not only did they have the world record but announced proudly that visitors from all over the world attended this event. (The fact the 'visitors' were already here did not seem to impact on the desire to imply people had jetted in for this huge event).

Actually, if all TV posters agreed we could announce we've started our New Year countdown now, thus smashing the world record!

Sorry for being such a cynic, but the current climate brings out the worse in me. Perhaps if I could listen to the radio I would not be browsing this thread.

The count down until Christmas 2014 has begun

71 days until Christmas

[Jip66]

once they roll out their new 'martial law tourism' package the numbers will jump.

Do we get to shoot pigs and buffaloes?

Edited:

Do we get to shoot police & low-life farang?

[smotherb]

'Smotherb'

You do accept right, they will never build red-light districts, with bars that have stages for dancing girls, that cater for foreigners, they will never build such places in PP or Yangon ??

I sure wish I could see into the future too. My clouded vision suggests if Thailand looses even more of it's tourist trade, neighboring countries my simply try to fill the void.

[empireboy]

Then why are all my favorite hotels charging higher advertised rates this year than the same months last year?

That's what they do here.... they have to make up the losses somehow! Strange thinking but completely pervasive!

[thailiketoo]

'Smotherb'

You do accept right, they will never build red-light districts, with bars that have stages for dancing girls, that cater for foreigners, they will never build such places in PP or Yangon ??

I sure wish I could see into the future too. My clouded vision suggests if Thailand looses even more of it's tourist trade, neighboring countries my simply try to fill the void.

Flying Malaysian airlines for sure. Or looking for democracy movements in Burma and Vietnam?

[BlackJack]

the som tam lady said her sales were down and so I guess thats a fairly good gage that TAT could use

[Yann55]

(....)

Please understand I am not trying to stand up for the criminal element, only trying to show that the islands are not deathly, other than from motorcycle accidents anyway. And, yes I hardly expect I know of all the deaths here. However, I have never felt threatened here. Until now.

(...)

EdIt: I agree people on KT have been guilty of allowing such a lawless situation to grow out of control, but I am speaking more specifically about this case. Not one whisper...

hello again, it's really nice and interesting to exchange ideas with you. Not a common situation on this Forum where sane debate is more often turned into a p*ssing contest.

Sorry for editing your post and keeping only the points I wish to discuss further- trying not to overload the thread.

- About the statement 'I don't feel threatened', it makes me wonder how I feel and realize that for years (28 to be exact) I didn't feel threatened in this country either. Not in the day, not in the night, not on a solitary beach, not in a crowded Bangkok street, not in a remote Esarn village, really nowhere.

And then what ? things changed ? Or did I ? Did I start seeing this country as it is, warts and all, or did the warts grow ? I suppose it's both.

For a long time I saw what I wanted to see, and through the tainted glasses of my high expectations. Isn't that the case for most tourists ? I believe it is. They (we) see things in a positive light because we're more relaxed, we don't understand the language, we don't know the behavioural codes, we experience leisurely freedom and happiness, and we interpret the country rather than experience it.

Unless something bad happens, we go back home and are happy to tell our friends and colleagues that paradise is, after all, just a few hours away by plane. Something very bad did happen to me here in 2012 (see link below if you wish to know the details). I haven't stopped loving this country where I've lived since 2001, I didn't go 'back home' because home is here now, but it did remove the last bit of taint on my rosy glasses, that's for sure.

On the other hand I see racism and xenophobia growing in many Thais, and it's a complicated phenomenon for which tourists and expats are partly responsible of course. It generates more aggressiveness and violence. But the exact same thing is happening in Europe...so, obviously it's a sociological fact that goes way beyond the borders of Thailand. Among many causes, I believe that globalization has generated so much frustration, angst and miscomprehension that most everywhere people point an accusing finger at foreigners because it's the simplest possible 'explanation' and a natural, if misconstrued, reaction of human beings : "we were happy in our little world, and then you guys came and screwed it all up"... nice and simple.

- About the fact that no one in Koh Tao came up and spoke about what they must know... just trying to put myself in their shoes brings me back to the insularity problem. The locals would never rat out anyone of their kin because that would mean utter exclusion, or worse. Knowing how essential family and clan are to every Asian person brought up on Confucean principles (even thought most of them don't realize it in the least) and adding that to the insular factor, it's totally obvious that the locals will never do anything else but clam up in a crisis like this one.

As for the migrant workers, well of course they won't talk either because they're making a living, and they would never put that in jeopardy. Most of them paid big money to come over, the meager salaries they make are still more than what they would make at home and they're supporting more than themselves with that income.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/735264-nightmare-in-pattaya/

Edited October 15, 2014 by Yann55

[The manic]

Walking down Sukhumvit last week, bereft of markets stalls was so depressing. Ugly abandoned, civic decay, joyless, dirty, stained, scabourous graffited hordings and rust stained cement pillars and now the plain clothed police at every thirty feet stand out like sore thumbs reminiscent of the old Soviet Union. Who are these hard faced thugs? Who are they there to control? Were they always there or are they part of the new political machine keeping dark skinned Thais, who voted the wrong way, off their own streets? Now at least there is room for those Enable Arab families to waddle, three abreast. Without the stall holders and their amazing displays lower suk looks like a tawdry shithole that can be found in any decaying metropolis.

[Fat Haggis]

Unless the PM starts to put the RIGHT people on these influential positions instead of PTP style cronyism then there's no chance of things changing for the better, want to blame someone? Look in the mirror Mr.PM you need to have the right people to turn things around start by getting rid of this tourism minister clown!!!

[Mzungu]

Good side of it is no long wait at BKK arrival immigration. Thailand tourist industry I couldn't care less. In fact, what farangs living in Thailand need is another 1997 crisis meltdown and foreign currency going to 100 baht per £.

[stephen terry]

F***ing brilliant. About time Thailand got the message that foreign murders on their country will not be tolerated.

[Tazwa]

Besides, KT is not symbolic of all the islands - far from it I would hope.

From what I have seen, KT is a perfect example of all the islands.

Rape, murder, violence, gang control and mafia.

Its not just the Islands, a sleepy little beach side place we go to south of Hua Hin is mainly controlled by a couple of powerful families. There scum offspring run riot, dealing in drugs,assault,breaking into houses, that some part of the year remain empty and steal motor scooters.With the local BIB they are untouchable.

These are the facts of life in Thailand either we accept it and live with it or move on for as sure as the sun will come up tomorrow,we foreigners will never change the mind set loosely described as "culture'

This 'sleepy' little beach side place doesn't sound so sleepy!

[sapson]

Then why are all my favorite hotels charging higher advertised rates this year than the same months last year?

also all my hotels crazy up with prices !!

for this Xmass new year we will stay mostly home,

never before in last 10 years !!

Thai mentality less customers so charge them extra rather than reduce prices to attract more customers and increase general revenue!!

Three bookings at hiked pices is better for them than six booking at bargain rates with happy free spending punters.

[thailiketoo]

Then why are all my favorite hotels charging higher advertised rates this year than the same months last year?

also all my hotels crazy up with prices !!

for this Xmass new year we will stay mostly home,

never before in last 10 years !!

Thai mentality less customers so charge them extra rather than reduce prices to attract more customers and increase general revenue!!

Three bookings at hiked pices is better for them than six booking at bargain rates with happy free spending punters.

That is TV myth number 16. Now go out and find a hotel that raises prices when all the rooms are empty.

[ColdSingha]

Then why are all my favorite hotels charging higher advertised rates this year than the same months last year?

Because they are using Thai-logic... When demand is low, then raise the prices to recover the lost revenue.

when demand is low,lower your prices further........then go bust! The UK has thousands of bust companies who followed the lower your price strategy. I think just hold your price and don't panic is the best move. Thai -logic is arrogant towards pricing policies. They will advertise a vacant room ,increase its rent by whatever percent year on year,even if 10 years later they never rented the room for 1 week they would believe themselves justified.Never thinking they were asking too much ten years ago and it still applies.

All because they heard second hand that someone somewhere was getting said x amount for a similar room.

But you have to balance the books,and if that means increasing prices to cover costs so be it. Whats the alternative! put money in.....no thats just a western idea.Thai-logic does not go there.

How about this ?

When the number of 'customers' is falling, right, you might feel that the customers who are still there are the 'hard-core addicts'. These people will carry on being customers, so you might want to bump up prices.

People who love going to Pattaya, Nana and Soi Cowboy, in all honesty, there's no other places like them on planet earth. So, yes, bump up prices if there is a reduction of customers. Those customers will continue to arrive, only a nuclear bomb will stop the genuine 'sex tourist' !

Actually, if there's no reduction in customers, bump up prices anyway. Where are they going to go ? There's no Nana or Soi Cowboy in Rangoon or Phom Penh.

Philippines?

Edited October 15, 2014 by ColdSingha