Thailand plans one of world's tallest skyscrapers

[mikiea]

the plans now call the west view to be of the tour de france start & the east view will be the international volly beach ball fest. :-)

[Time Traveller]

Amazing how a story about a new building can bring out the TV Thai bashers out in force

Even more amazing because it's a corporation that is building this, not the government. Some people can't understand the difference.

One poster also thought because the development company had the word "Canal" in it's name that they are building next to some canal !!

[steveromagnino]

From an engineering point of view this is shear adulterated madness. The water table is so high that even if the foundations were excavated down the equivalent of 15-20 floors they would still remain unstable. There just isn't enough concrete even in Thailand to substitute for hard rock.

I guess only the extremely foolish, wealthy or social climbing Chinese will purchase an apartment and then I hope they have bucket loads of insurance (if they can get it). The Eureka Tower in Melbourne, Australia comes to mind. Although small by comparison it too required DEEP foundations and gold tinted glass and fittings just to entice the Chinese to buy an apartment - they did!

As an engineer (I presume that's your occupation since you are commenting as an engineer) perhaps you can explain to me, but I would guess it is going to be built on piles, the same as the SOM designed Burj Khalifa also built on sand (not rock) and pretty much every other supertall in the middle east and most of them around the world.

The piles of Burj Khalifa go down 50m. I believe somewhere MahaNakhon said something like 60m as did Baiyoke (it's available somewhere). Presumably this will be more than any of these.

I don't quite follow the 2nd paragraph, being that they are not building it to sell apartments, it's an office and hotel tower, they don't need to sell anything.

[Soutpeel]

I stand to be corrected but wasn't this tried once before with Baiyok II and that didn't turn out too well some issue over the piles and possibility the building would sink ?

And did it?

No. It is still standing graciously.

Baiyok I I never reached its planned design height because of fears of it sinking, that's why its still standing....in other words it was never finished ....

[ratcatcher]

This is a PRIVATE company, it is not government money, it is shareholder funds and debt paying for it.

AFAIK Grand Canal (the developer) AKA GLand are doing a massive development including the Robinson/Central Rama 9 shopping center (already open), Belle Park (already open) and a bunch of already let office buildings which will house Unilever among others (already under construction). They hope to unlock the value of their massive 70+ rai site by building 1 'hero' tower which will give a halo to the rest of the development as the new CBD of Bangkok (their name not mine).

The hero tower may not in itself get as much of a premium as they want, but that remains to be seen; within the overall development it seems to be a reasonably logical decision, even if it may be the wrong one (I question whether Rama 9 and Ratchada would EVER be considered a new city CBD, having heard the same thing about Rama 3 and Muangthong Thani, but they seem to have the funding and tenants to make it possible and at least successful as a fancy office park). With enough scale, they can link in to the express way and roading system, they are next to the MRT, very close to the airport link.....as far as ambitious projects go it's not too far in left field (unlike Ocean Tower 1).

I question whether you can get a premium on rental per sqm for supertall office space in Bangkok (I know you can for residential proven by Iconsiam, MahaNakhon, et al) but again, the developer is probably looking at this one element as part of a whole; a bit like putting restaurants and a supermarket in a shopping center - the SOM tower helps him achieve the tenancies he needs for the rest of the development. So this is not some pie in the sky random idea, this is a decent sized developer with most of the development done or underway, announcing the next component.

With regards to construction, given the real architects behind this are SOM, an international firm, it would seem that if you think the engineering is not up to scratch then you would have to wonder about Willis Tower and Burj Khalifa, both also SOM designed buildings.

There are numerous buildings above 250m, and a few now going above 300m; piling goes down deep enough to protect the building from earthquakes etc. Supposedly. Foundations are typically something like 20-25% of the height of the building, and it depends a lot on the shape of the base.

The idea that a company whose business is building and leasing buildings should not build something because 70 years from now Bangkok might or might not be flooded is something some of you 'experts' should propose at some property developer shareholder meetings, please let me know when you do, as a shareholder they tend to be pretty boring affairs, having some good comedy as the farang self proclaimed expert explains the concepts of business and preserving shareholder value by not doing anything in preparation for the next 70 years should be good for a laugh.

Furthermore, the developer is in a competitive business. Univentures/Golden Land (K Charoen) and/or Central et al are encroaching on the office space territory with the Lumpini mega project, whoever locks up the big multinationals first will be the success and the other will be the also ran (perhaps).

Its a ballsy project.

Ocean 1 was a foreign developer with some track record, trying to launch a mega tower with a need to sell a huge proportion of the building to get funding, in a non beachside location. This is a lot more likely to get off the ground; I wouldn't count on it, but for sure WaterFront, IconSiam and MahaNakhon are all happening, this one and the Circle's Thonglor 36 developments are the ones that are maybe too early to say. Offices and hotels are easier because there is no necessarily a leveraging aspect with financing tied to sell through rates, in this case they may be able to secure financing quite quickly (in fact they already have) to start building...whereas a resi tower needs 40% sales (sometimes more sometimes less) before banks start allowing draw downs for construction. On the flip side....hard to make money out of the hotel or the office tower sometimes, and more so for a supertall if you don't really nail the efficiency. However....if you are making money out of resi, hotel, retail, mid rise commercial, high rise commercial, convention center....and then you plop a mega tall in the center as the cherry on top....there's a certain amount of logic to that.

Cherries. Yum. I'll prepare some for that shareholder meeting Q&A. Along with some pie. Maybe Cherry & humble pie.

Once again steve, you land among us with a plane load of logical and sensible statements. Amidst a chorus of naysayers and can't - be - doners.

These people, Grand Canal PCL are serious big league developers here in Thailand (a Third World country according to some pundits) and have the wherewithal to expedite this plan.

I for one don't really care how they engineer it and seriously doubt if it will touch the clouds in 2016, but at some point it will be completed and as the old cliche says, "Build it and they will come". It's private money here, not government (public funds), and will definitely be overseen and managed with much more efficiency than anything a government would contemplate.

Tenants will be lining up.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

They can build as many skyscrapers and shoppingmalls as they want, it doesn't change the fact, that Thailand is still a third world country!!

please define what is a third world country ?

A country that is not part of NATO or the Soviet Block.

[fobuff]

anybody can plan... it is the execution that counts

[Time Traveller]

From an engineering point of view this is shear adulterated madness. The water table is so high that even if the foundations were excavated down the equivalent of 15-20 floors they would still remain unstable. There just isn't enough concrete even in Thailand to substitute for hard rock.

I guess only the extremely foolish, wealthy or social climbing Chinese will purchase an apartment and then I hope they have bucket loads of insurance (if they can get it). The Eureka Tower in Melbourne, Australia comes to mind. Although small by comparison it too required DEEP foundations and gold tinted glass and fittings just to entice the Chinese to buy an apartment - they did!

how does your theory fit with the hundreds of skyscrapers in Bangkok that have been built over the last 30 years? But not just in Bangkok but hundreds of cities throughout the world? Much of manhattan used to be swampland as well. No construction problems with the Skyscrapers there.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Time Traveller

[Time Traveller]

They can build as many skyscrapers and shoppingmalls as they want, it doesn't change the fact, that Thailand is still a third world country!!

please define what is a third world country ?

A country that is not part of NATO or the Soviet Block.

So Japan, Korea, Singapore, Australia, all 3rd world?

Actually the comment by JOC is really dumb. Visit a real 3rd world country and you'll think Thailand is like Singapore.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Time Traveller

[loongdavid]

"As an engineer (I presume that's your occupation since you are commenting as an engineer) perhaps you can explain to me, but I would guess it is going to be built on piles, the same as the SOM designed Burj Khalifa also built on sand (not rock) and pretty much every other supertall in the middle east and most of them around the world.

The piles of Burj Khalifa go down 50m. I believe somewhere MahaNakhon said something like 60m as did Baiyoke (it's available somewhere). Presumably this will be more than any of these.

I don't quite follow the 2nd paragraph, being that they are not building it to sell apartments, it's an office and hotel tower, they don't need to sell anything".

Towers built in the Gulf region do actually sit on solid rock as there's plenty of it under all that sand. The average depth of the water table is also much, much lower. The depth of the piers is calculated firstly on the depth of the water table, type and compression of the soil / rock below that, geothermal activity etc etc. Bangkok is extremely poorly situated given the substrata composition, so I very much doubt if any cost benefit analysis would pass the first test. A lot rests with who the engineers are that will scrutinise the plans prior to building.

Developers gain a return on their investment principally from selling space, particularly the higher that space is. Consequently, I would be really surprised if this proposal did not incorporate apartments.

[transam]

It will be built when the rice stuff has finished.............

[Briandajew]

A Thai property developer has announced plans to build one of the smallest skyscrapers in the world in Bangkok.

Grand Canal Land Public Company Ltd. says the 3-floor building will stand 15 meters (28 feet) high and will be completed by 2069. (maybe - but they are not sure)

According to the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat, which maintains a database of the tallest skyscrapers, the Bangkok "Substandard Tower" will be the world's ninth smallest if it is built on schedule.(which it won't)

Grand Canal says the soaring building cost will offer space for an office, a luxury toilet with bum gun complete with lavatory observation deck with panoramic views of the luxury toilet and bum gun, the finest in Southeast Asia apart from Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, China, Korea and Malaysia.

The tallest building in the world is Dubai's Burj Khalifa, which has 163 floors and is 828 meters (2,717 feet) high and from the top floor will be able to see this new project with a pair of binoculars. (on a clear day)

So in essence we can expect a 3 storey town house made from sub standard materials finished probably 4 years past the projected completion date, and after all the backhanders costing more than the Dubai Burj Khalifa - Thailand, the hub of bullshit! Just out of curiosity how is the Ebola vaccine going?

[ratcatcher]

They can build as many skyscrapers and shoppingmalls as they want, it doesn't change the fact, that Thailand is still a third world country!!

please define what is a third world country ?

A country that is not part of NATO or the Soviet Block.

That should please the Australians, New Zealanders, Japanese, Koreans, Taiwanese, Singaporeans etc.

However countries that were part of the Eastern (Soviet) Bloc are more developed?

[steveromagnino]

"I would guess it is going to be built on piles, the same as the SOM designed Burj Khalifa also built on sand (not rock)

Towers built in the Gulf region do actually sit on solid rock as there's plenty of it under all that sand.

Bangkok is extremely poorly situated given the substrata composition, so I very much doubt if any cost benefit analysis would pass the first test. A lot rests with who the engineers are that will scrutinise the plans prior to building.

Developers gain a return on their investment principally from selling space, particularly the higher that space is. Consequently, I would be really surprised if this proposal did not incorporate apartments.

Actually, according to SOM the building Burj Khalifa sits on sand not rock

"Does the Burj al Arab stand on rock?

The building is built on sand, which is unusual as most tall building are founded on rock. The Burj al Arab is supported on 250 1.5M diameter columns that go 45 meters under the sea. As there is only sand to hold the building up the columns rely on friction."

http://www.e-architect.co.uk/dubai/burj-al-arab-tower

There is indeed some weak sandstone under there, but it's not what people might think; you cannot just dig a deep enough hole and attach something to solid rock in some parts of the world (including here).

The challenges are well documented by experts such as here:

http://www.constructionweekonline.com/article-3993-on-site-talk-the-sky-is-not-the-only-limit/

Jin Mao in Shanghai also by SOM has the same issues of being built in a river basin.

Anyhow, looking at the program, as it stands now, and looking at the zoning issues and the overall development currently planned (since they own all the neighboring properties also) it would seem that the main tower as of now, does not have any resi; they put the resi into resi specific towers nearby; note that it would be next to impossible to achieve the kinds of prices needed for this tower for resi in this location; perhaps 180k average but that's not high enough; prime neighborhoods are pushing average 220-300k per sqm now. Rama IX....it is surrounded by mid end - it won't achieve Sukhumvit/Sathorn/Prime Riverside prices.

A friend in the business said skyscraper success is massively dependent on core design. A hotel in the lower section of the tower, and offices above or the two flipped as we see at a building like say ICC in Hong Kong can work although the building needs to be big enough per floor to handle all the separate lifts, it starts to get very tricky legally and also from a core size perspective to handle resi + office + hotel (triple core all with separate services); also in Thailand it is difficult (although not impossible) to create an office and resi building in a single tower, although that configuration is the less popular for buyers - buyers do not generally would want to live in an office building even though on some level the logic is probably not as bad as it seems.

http://www.designbuild-network.com/projects/mass_transit/

ICC interestingly has a similar issue of unstable land, plus strong winds, next to the sea - they have ways around that also. Its a nice property.

[HOOD Robin]

I hear they plan on being first men on Mars !

Such a thrilling time to be Thai and world beaters.

This great leader of theirs is nothing short of a god!

Don't you ThinK?

Well... in the good old days they used chimps as test pilot to space, right ?

" Mr Chalerm do not miss this opp to be the first on Mars mate !! "

[eddie61]

Failed democracy
Failed education system

Failed bureacracy
Failed legal system

Failed police system

Failed town planning

Failed environmental protection

Corruption everywhere you look.

......but at least the country can boast the world's biggest willy, and that must be great for a nation so desperate for self esteem.

Edited October 15, 2014 by eddie61

[Commerce]

As a structural engineer, it is not the depth of piling that is crucial; it is the spread and how it holds in the surrounds, and how far it spreads with grip into the surrounding strata. If any of you still think the roots of a tree go as deep as the height of the tree, I suggest you do some research, bcecause that is far fro the truth. Even a 70ft Oak tree only has roots to a depth of 5 ft, but they spread far and wide. It is the foundation design that is utmost, be it on sand or clay or whatever, it can be designed to hold. However, in this case, for one i very much doubt a date of 2106 for completion, and I very much doubt a cost of 18B Baht - that is taking the P rather somewhat. The Shanghai tower has been under construction for 5 years, after 3 years of design, and will last forever. The Thai Lego building will probably never see the light of day, in all honesty - but anything for attention from the poorest shambles on world record of late.

[Commerce]

Failed democracy

Failed education system

Failed bureacracy

Failed legal system

Failed police system

Failed town planning

Failed environmental protection

......but at least the country can boast the world's biggest willy.

I thank you for your compliment!

[Showbags]

New tourist attraction..leaning tower of thai

[devaram]

They can build as many skyscrapers and shoppingmalls as they want, it doesn't change the fact, that Thailand is still a third world country!!

If you think its a third world country I think you should move to west africa for while.

Something tells me you'll be back in a hurry!

[givenall]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Grand Canal Land Public Company, hmm so the land will be near a canal?

They flood a lot don't they?

Are there any implications for a building this size on land that floods on a regular basis?

Apart from buying some wellies, that is.

I believe it when I see it. Thais tend to talk a lot and weak on actions. I thing the term talk is cheap was invented in Thailand

[wabothai]

Some skyscrapers float and are not built on piles.

This one i don't know.

[ratcatcher]

I hear they plan on being first men on Mars !

Such a thrilling time to be Thai and world beaters.

This great leader of theirs is nothing short of a god!

Don't you ThinK?

Well... in the good old days they used chimps as test pilot to space, right ?

" Mr Chalerm do not miss this opp to be the first on Mars mate !! "

Since you have brought our old friend Chalerm, the toper, into the discussion, can we assume he will plan on opening a Mars Bar?

[crazygreg44]

I wonder where they plan to build, and how far the support columns will go down? Any engineers here?

It's the first I've heard of it... Baiyoke Tower pilings go down 60 meters. To hit bedrock in Bangkok it could be between anywhere between 400 to 800 meters some sources place it deeper. The size of the footprint relative to the weight, hight, depth and the number of piles is perhaps the most important thing; however, there is nothing below us but sand and clay. The buildings here are at best floating on it.

I hope that wasn't a too simple response from a drunk.

Utter Nonsense. Bedrock underneath Bangkok is between 8 and 80 meters ! Not 400 to 800 meters. If it was like you described it, all buildings in Bangkok taller than 5 stories would have already sunk into the mud

Anyways . . . .when they start a tall building, they will always dig until they hit bedrock, before they pile down. You mentioned it yourself : Bayoke location took 60 meters until they hit bedrock. If they hadn't hit bedrock, they would not have built anything. You might say Thailand is 3rd world country, but most of their architects are from 1st world countries. They are not THAT stupid . . .

your last remark ? Hey, yeah. for someone who thinks you are floating on 800 meters of slimey mud above all the hard rock, even when drunk you could feel safe . . . nothing rocks ya any better

Edited October 15, 2014 by crazygreg44

[retsdon]

Environmental or social impact study? Planning permission? Or is it just a case of buying a piece of ground and whacking up whatever monstrosity springs to mind? If it's the latter it would explain why Bangkok is up there amongst the ugliest cities of the world.

[darrendsd]

Failed democracy

Failed education system

Failed bureacracy

Failed legal system

Failed police system

Failed town planning

Failed environmental protection

Corruption everywhere you look.

......but at least the country can boast the world's biggest willy, and that must be great for a nation so desperate for self esteem.

Only on Thai Visa can a story about a private developer building a Skyscraper bring out a response like this.

It would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

In case you didn't know the Thai Government do monitor this site, is it any wonder they make it harder for people to stay here long term when they see pathetic posts like yours?

Edited October 15, 2014 by darrendsd

[Briandajew]

Failed democracy

Failed education system

Failed bureacracy

Failed legal system

Failed police system

Failed town planning

Failed environmental protection

Corruption everywhere you look.

......but at least the country can boast the world's biggest willy, and that must be great for a nation so desperate for self esteem.

Well said! The Hub of Total Failure! This is what happens when a tin pot 3rd world dictatorship thinks it is actually a genuine country.

[JAS21]

djhotsox, on 15 Oct 2014 - 16:04, said:

Apparently to be along Rama IX Road which they are calling the new CBD?!

1.jpg

That's good news for us then as we live adjacent to Klong Pappa ... if it topples fortunately it won't reach our house.

[Briandajew]

Could be a building anywhere in China, why not try to include some unique Thai design to it?

They could maybe build it from Mama!

[MJP]

Rising Skyscrapers, Not Rising Skirts, Indicate a Recession Coming

There is an “unhealthy correlation” between the building of skyscrapers and subsequent financial crashes, according to Barclays Capital. Examples include the Empire State building, built as the Great Depression was underway, and the current world’s tallest, the Burj Khalifa, built just before Dubai almost went bust.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/01/11/rising-skyscrapers-not-rising-skirts-indicate-a-recession-coming/