From a couple of recent topics, it seems some members have strong opinions for and against the idea of trying to fit in with Thai culture. Do you make an effort to fit in? If not, why not?

What I mean by "fitting in" is making an effort to blend in with Thais as much as possible and avoiding behaviour which is frowned on or considered strange in Thailand. I don't mean going native and doing everything exactly like a Thai.

For example, are you wearing yellow on Mondays to honour the king? Have you made an effort to learn Thai? Do you try not to be critical or emotional when dealing with Thais? Do you wai to the proper people at the proper time? Do you go to boring weddings and funerals when invited by people you hardly know? Do you avoid pointing your feet at people? Do you eat Thai food? Do you attend Buddhist ceremonies or tham-boon when invited to? Do you stand still when the national anthem is played in public places?

There are some activities which are actually illegal in Thailand but they seem to be accepted in popular Thai culture, like giving bribes to the police, buying pirate software or DVDs, and companies using two sets of accounting books.

Personally, I try to fit in as much as possible since it makes life easier and is appreciated by Thais. I've never had to set aside my own beliefs to do this. At the end of the day, we'll always be thought of as farang, but we can be "accepted" at various levels. For example, I take it as a compliment when colleagues say "Camerata isn't like a farang" (usually meaning I don't get angry when someone screws up the work). I also take it as some kind of acceptance when I'm asked to give a speech at a wedding.

Yes, I think it's important to try.

totster

It's important to try to ft in or at least take on board different ways & beleifs but youhit the nai on the head by saying as long as it doesn't interfere in your own beliefs or opinions.

I will try to be as adaptable as possible when in LOS but if I disagree with something then no amount of "culture or face" will stop me from expressing my opinion. For example, just becuase it is seen as "thai culture" that some thai men have mia nois doesn't mean that I will tolerate my husband having one.

'Yes, I think it's important to try.'

For example, are you wearing yellow on Mondays to honour the king?

I wear yellow sometimes, usually not every Monday though.

Have you made an effort to learn Thai?

Yes, a rather serious effort. And it has definitely paid off, although I still have a long way to go before being completely fluent.

Do you try not to be critical or emotional when dealing with Thais?

Yes, to the best of my ability.

Do you wai to the proper people at the proper time?

Yes, to the best of my ability.

Do you go to boring weddings and funerals when invited by people you hardly know?

I have occasionally, but not as often as I used to in the beginning.

Do you avoid pointing your feet at people?

Yes, at all times.

Do you eat Thai food?

Yes, too much.

Do you attend Buddhist ceremonies or tham-boon when invited to?

Occasionally - not always.

Do you stand still when the national anthem is played in public places?

Yes.

There are some activities which are actually illegal in Thailand but they seem to be accepted in popular Thai culture, like giving bribes to the police, buying pirate software or DVDs, and companies using two sets of accounting books.

I try to stay on the right side of the law in most matters, but I have failed once or twice.

There is a lot of coverage back in the UK about immigrants to that country. Some people object that certain immigrants don't learn to speak English, only follow the law when it suits them, and are simply there to abuse the benefits system.

If people in the UK expect immigrants living in the country to show respect then it stands to reason that they should do the same when staying in someone elses country. Sadly some of those very same people act like absolute animals whilst overseas, looking down on the local people and generally doing whatever they want.

Example: My wife and I had to go down to Pattaya last week on business and went to Walking Street in the evening for dinner. I was amazed at the number of men walking around and sat in bars who weren't wearing any shirts/tshirts. I wonder how many of them would get annoyed at home if they saw an immigrant failing to respect their culture?

I think it is good to be polite...I don't think that most farangs ever fit in....except as farangs.

.I've not been here for long but I’m not the type who likes to stand out and shout I’m from Europe anyway. I eat Thai food because I like it, I say 'Sawa dee Krap' to all my girlfriends relations. Apparently her sister's fiancé hasn't bothered to do that and he's known them for nearly 2 years. I have been here for only 2 weeks.

I'm always asking my girlfriend if it's ok to do this or to do that, not because I’m uncomfortable but I don't know what could be seen as offensive. For instance pointing your feet at someone, this I wasn't aware of until I read your post.

The only thing I have discovered on my stay here so far, is that families are very jealous of each other. Maybe that's no different to the UK, other than here they make it plainly obvious. I can speak basic Thai and I know when my girlfriends relations are making some unnecessary remarks.

I am starting to like it here though.

I try to stay on the right side of the law in most matters, but I have failed once or twice.

Me too. I wouldn't have a particular problem with, say, giving the police a little something for services rendered. It would be illegal and unethical in the West, and I'm sure it's illegal here, but any Thai will tell you that's just the way it is in Thailand. Look at all the presents traffic cops get from motorists at New Year!

Thai companies often have a "Thank the Press" party for journalists who write nice things about them or get their press releases out on time. This would be unethical in the West but it isn't seen that way here at all. I've always avoided these events, but I wouldn't actually refuse if I was expected to turn up.

I think it is good to be polite...I don't think that most farangs ever fit in....except as farangs.

Good way of putting it and that pretty much sums up how I feel as well.

I think the issue is not so much ‘fitting in’ as one of achieving the right balance and for that we need to have respect.

And respect is a two way street.

I don't know what could be seen as offensive. For instance pointing your feet at someone, this I wasn't aware of until I read your post.

Blimey! That's a big no-no, especially the soles of the feet. Also using your feet to move things (you might get a comment like "meu farang!"), stepping over people, throwing things to people, and touching people on the head (with some exceptions). For a quick heads-up you might want to read Culture Clash Thailand.

A couple of weeks ago I was in the dental surgery reception at Bumrungrad Hospital and there was a young American guy who suddenly started doing what looked like ballet exercises holding on to the front counter and stretching his leg out towards the seated patients behind. Unbelievable.

The only thing I have discovered on my stay here so far, is that families are very jealous of each other. Maybe that's no different to the UK, other than here they make it plainly obvious. I can speak basic Thai and I know when my girlfriends relations are making some unnecessary remarks.

I am starting to like it here though.

You're doing the right thing in learning Thai. It makes life here a lot more satisfying.

I pretty much mirror everything meadish_sweetball said except Thai food. First couple of years here and that was all I ate but my tolerance for it was never that high so it is now only occasionally.

I consider myself an outsider here, someone who will never really "get it" or be fully embraced into society. That said i observe Thai culture closely and participate in a measured and appropriate manner. It's clear that with the advent of the internet we are making rapid inroads in understanding Thai culture and behaviour. Constantly my GF is stunned by the things I know and understand about Thailand.

I wonder if Thai's assume too much about us and what we do and dont know about the place we choose to live in.

edit; grammar : two, too and to. Dont get it wrong kids.

I will try to be as adaptable as possible when in LOS but if I disagree with something then no amount of "culture or face" will stop me from expressing my opinion.

But the way you express that opinion can be adapted to the Thai way... after a lot of practice.

For example, just becuase it is seen as "thai culture" that some thai men have mia nois doesn't mean that I will tolerate my husband having one.

Yeah, we all have to draw the line somewhere. I wouldn't get smashed on lao-khao every Friday night with the in-laws (if I had any) to fit in and I rather doubt I could bring myself to pay a non-returnable sin-sot if I got married.

If you are comfortable being YOURSELF in Thailand, then stay here. If you are not, why try to be someone you are not. Go where you are comfortable, relaxed and do not have to "dance to other people's msuic". As for me, I am more comfortable in Thailand than in my previous location in the western world.

Courtesy and respect should be universal responses by anyone when they are trying to function in a culture that is not their own. But trying to act Thai? That's silly.

In my experience, most educated and sophisticated Thais think foreigners end up looking foolish when they try too hard to 'fit in' by behaving in what they think is a Thai fashion. They expect foreigners to be themselves, not some fumbling imitation of what they think a Thai is. When we wai Thais rather than shake hands with them, for example, if you look closely you will very frequently see the snicker slide across their faces.

Personally, I don't see fitting in with another culture as trying to be someone I'm not or dancing to someone else's tune. Most people are changing all their lives as they encounter new situations, new relationships, new interests. It's just a way of fitting in to the current situation/society to get the maximum benefit from it.

A friend of mine became quite frustrated here in Thailand because he was 'never going to be accepted'. The way I see it is that some Thais have accepted me, and others never will. If I was an immigrant to the UK, some locals would accept me and others never will. Being a brit who loves rugby, some football fans will never see eye to eye with me. I'm a big guy, some people who feel I have let myself go will never accept me.

The only people that you really need to be accepted by are those in your immediate circle. The rest should be shown courtesy and respect at all times, but their acceptance should be neither sought or cared for, as they are merely 'passing through'.

Courtesy and respect should be universal responses by anyone when they are trying to function in a culture that is not their own. But trying to act Thai? That's silly.

Turn that the other way round for a minute. A Thai in London or New York should wai everyone instead of shaking hands or else he'll look like he's trying to act farang? By shaking hands he's just trying to temporarily adapt to the host culture so that everything goes smoother.

In my experience, most educated and sophisticated Thais think foreigners end up looking foolish when they try too hard to 'fit in' by behaving in what they think is a Thai fashion. They expect foreigners to be themselves, not some fumbling imitation of what they think a Thai is. When we wai Thais rather than shake hands with them, for example, if you look closely you will very frequently see the snicker slide across their faces.

I've never seen Thais snicker while receiving a wai, but waiing is problematic since very few farang do it properly, a lot of the time we aren't sure of our status relative to the person we are waiing, and quite a few Thais don't wai a foreigner because they think the foreigner prefers a handshake.

Courtesy and respect should be universal responses by anyone when they are trying to function in a culture that is not their own. But trying to act Thai? That's silly.

In my experience, most educated and sophisticated Thais think foreigners end up looking foolish when they try too hard to 'fit in' by behaving in what they think is a Thai fashion. They expect foreigners to be themselves, not some fumbling imitation of what they think a Thai is. When we wai Thais rather than shake hands with them, for example, if you look closely you will very frequently see the snicker slide across their faces.

Well said.

The only people that you really need to be accepted by are those in your immediate circle. The rest should be shown courtesy and respect at all times, but their acceptance should be neither sought or cared for, as they are merely 'passing through'.

You make it sound like such a burden! I originally started learning Thai so I wouldn't get ripped off by taxi drivers (in the pre-meter days). Once I could speak Thai reasonably well, the rip-offs stopped. The taxi drivers were strangers and I wasn't seeking their acceptance, but learning Thai resulted in an immediate financial benefit for me.

Must be Bangkokians snickering because I do wai and I don't get snickers. In fact, most of my husband's relatives admire my ability to fit in yet still remain true to myself.

For a woman it is important to dress in a polite manner, I am not saying cover up like a Muslim woman but don't wear short shorts or spagetti (or esp. strapless) tops--at least out in the country. I wear tank tops and shorts to town but again, they are fairly modest.

For everybody I think learning to control one's anger is the most important aspect of living in Thailand. Getting angry will get you nowhere fast. And in fact, you will often find that even at home a nice manner will get you further than pushy aggression.

As boo said, it is important to respect certain local customs but it is more important to be true to your own fundamental beliefs.

When we wai Thais rather than shake hands with them, for example, if you look closely you will very frequently see the snicker slide across their faces.

That is usually because the farnag are doing it wrong. Like when you wai to a child, the hands are lower than if you are waiing to an adult, which is lower than to a parent or elder, which is lower than waiing to a Monk etc. I don't think the snigger is meant as anything insulting though.

I think the thing about at least knowing what the "No, No's" are, is that at least you can avoid uncomfortable situations, rather than trying to look Thai.

As for me, i concur with Meadish post (although i'm probably about a decade behind him with my speaking, reading and writing

The only people that you really need to be accepted by are those in your immediate circle. The rest should be shown courtesy and respect at all times, but their acceptance should be neither sought or cared for, as they are merely 'passing through'.

You make it sound like such a burden! I originally started learning Thai so I wouldn't get ripped off by taxi drivers (in the pre-meter days). Once I could speak Thai reasonably well, the rip-offs stopped. The taxi drivers were strangers and I wasn't seeking their acceptance, but learning Thai resulted in an immediate financial benefit for me.

I din't mean it that way camerata (very good topic by the way). I guess what I was trying to say is that my friend was getting stressed out because all Thais wouldn't accept him, and in that case it is really like banging your head against a brick wall. Yes one should learn the language, and show respect to the host culture, but doing that in an attempt to get everyone to accept you is setting yourself up for a fall. My point is that no matter how hard you try there will always be people who will not accept you because you are foreign. So long as they are not in your immediate circle then my advice is to not worry as they are just passing through.

I have spent 10 years being dropped into foreign countries at a moments notice. Places like the Yemen and North Korea are pretty tough to adjust too quickly but the nature of my job meant that I needed to learn how to 'fit in' as quickly as possible. I would then pass this knowledge on as soon as my customers arrived in the country so that they wouldn't cause offence. As I used to put it to them "You are here to see their country, not so that they can see you"

The people in my building seem to think that I fit in quite well. The kids "wai" me when they come home from school. The eldest woman (Nee) recently gave me a yellow (I love the King) shirt, because she considers me to be one of the family (younger brother). (I didn't wear it on Monday though, as I had some plumbing work to do, and didn't think it would be respectful to be crawling on the bathroom floor in my new yellow shirt.)

I think it also has something to do with me acting a lot like a Thai man (well, acting like a lot of Thai men). No job. Sleep in until late in the morning. Drink a lot. Sleep with lots of different women.

I don't smack them around though, and haven't got any of them knocked up then pulled a runner on them, so I'm not acting totally like a local.

For example, are you wearing yellow on Mondays to honour the king?

No but I respect him immensely.

Have you made an effort to learn Thai?

Yes to make my life easy when travelling around.

Do you try not to be critical or emotional when dealing with Thais?

I try not to be but when I feel like they might be ripping me off I must challenge that.

Do you wai to the proper people at the proper time?

Rarely because I might get it wrong, however when necessary I will do so.

Do you go to boring weddings and funerals when invited by people you hardly know?

No, I have no interest in going to such important events that are to do with people that I hardly know.

Do you avoid pointing your feet at people?

Yes, that is a must and the least I can do.

Do you eat Thai food?

Yes, all the time.

Do you attend Buddhist ceremonies or tham-boon when invited to?

Only if it is with close friends or family but I don't really enjoy it.

Do you stand still when the national anthem is played in public places?

If there are 200 Thais walking around and they don't stop niether will I. Otherwise yes, respect to the King and Country is important particularily as I stay here for so long.

There are some activities which are actually illegal in Thailand but they seem to be accepted in popular Thai culture, like giving bribes to the police,

If the sh!t hit the fan then I would rather pay a bribe than go to a Thai prison.

buying pirate software or DVDs,

I only buy what is openly available to all other people.

and companies using two sets of accounting books.

Doesn't affect me as I do not have any businesses here.

It's all common sense really.

Ling Kae

.I've not been here for long but I’m not the type who likes to stand out and shout I’m from Europe anyway. I eat Thai food because I like it, I say 'Sawa dee Krap' to all my girlfriends relations. Apparently her sister's fiancé hasn't bothered to do that and he's known them for nearly 2 years. I have been here for only 2 weeks.

I'm always asking my girlfriend if it's ok to do this or to do that, not because I’m uncomfortable but I don't know what could be seen as offensive. For instance pointing your feet at someone, this I wasn't aware of until I read your post.

The only thing I have discovered on my stay here so far, is that families are very jealous of each other. Maybe that's no different to the UK, other than here they make it plainly obvious. I can speak basic Thai and I know when my girlfriends relations are making some unnecessary remarks.

I am starting to like it here though.

crick's charlie you've been here only 2 weeks and you've got a girlfriend and met the family.

you are doing real well my friend and more power to you.

thought you would have known about not pointing the digets at people ?

thats a real big one as it freaks them out.

give you a tip, never leave your chop sticks resting ( pointing) out of the bowl.

this represents death and could quite possibly turn a thai white.

cheers me old mate

I think it's important to try and intergrate in to the Thai society as much as possible if you intend to be here for any length of time. Learning the language to me is a must (personaly).

I think it's worth pointing out though that you should realy try to understand why things are done in such a way and not just mimic the actions without knowing why you are doing it. One example of this is wearing yellow on a monday, i have seen many farangs wearing a yellow shirt on a monday but how many of them know why? Why a Monday and why yellow?

I know the answer as im sure most here do but i think if you are going to do something to fit in you should know why your doing it.

Good topic camerata, Cheers.

I try to fit in with all those points that you mentioned, except concerning Bhuddist ceronmonies. Although I will attend these with my wife and her family, I politely decline to take part, but sit respectively and watch the events.

I previously explained to the monks at the wat that this was not because I did not agree with Bhuddism, or that I believed in a different religion. I explained that it was because I didn't fully understand the reasons for some of the Bhuddist 'rituals'. For me, it would be very disrespectful to 'go through the motions' if I didn't understand why I was doing these rituals.

This explanation was very well received by everyone and no-one ever commented that it was rude of me not to take part.

At our village wedding, this did cause some small problems because I insisted on understanding the reason for some of the wedding rituals. To be honest, most people had no idea why and just said that everyone always did such and such!

I did get a book ' The Dummies Guide to Bhuddism' (or something similar, but I'm still trying to fathom it all out......

Simon

I don't make any special effort (except with the language) as it all seems pretty much like common sense and not much different to how I would act normally. I mean who really went round patting other adult's heads and pointing their feet at people in their own countries anyway?