Should There Be A Test For Voting

[Gonzo the Face]

Should there be an Intelligence Test for Voting

I know that the above would unconstitutional in many countries, but stop for a moment and give it a serious second thought.

Consider here in Thailand. To do something as simple [but possibly deadly] as legally operate a motorcycle, car, truck, bus, you must pass a test to obtain a license to do so. After all you will be control of a vehicle that may if improperly, or imprudently operated, kill a number of people.

Now consider that all you have to do to vote, to participate in the future of your own well-being as well as those other citizens of Thailand, is to reach a certain age. The vote, collectively has the power to, so to speak, make or break a country. To say to a people, as a whole, you either live or die. Now don't take that as a physical death literally, though it is possible, but more like a death of freedom, death of financial existence, or emotional death.

The person or people who are voted into office do have your life in their hands.

But it is sad to see that most voters here in Thailand exhibit very little thought regarding what the political runner stands for or is about, but rather the only thought is "this guy gives me 300B and that one gives me 500B so that makes Mr 500 a better man.

They don't seem to realize that the money he gives you today, comes out of your pocket tomorrow.

This is not only true to Thailand, but other countries as well Look at the retard that the US voters put into office and the problems he has caused for not only the US but the world as a whole. But this is a Thailand forum , so lets stick to Thailand.

My Thai friends, look at your country today. Look at the government you have voted in with/by your acceptance of "tea money" in more than a few cases. Is that government [read acting government] working for you and in your interests, or is it working for its own pocket.

Now back to the original question. Should there be some level of intelligence test , however minor to qualify a citizen to vote? Also shouldn't there be some test, much more in depth than how much money a politico has to distribute; perhaps some test of his/her abilities to run for a respective office ?

I would be interested to hear other opinions .

[tourleadersi]

How many intelligent people in the west blindly vote Democrat or Republican, Conservative or Labour because 'thats what we've always done?'

Whats worse? That or someone choosing the person that gives them the most at the start?

If we were talking about intelligence testing for the election candidates, perhaps with some kind of moral profilling and the requirement that an overseeing body would hold them to their election manifesto, now that would be good!

[kmart]

The whole of the N.E. (Isarn) seems to be one big voting bloc for "pooyai's" to drive through, dressed in rural garb; throwing trinkets out to the throngs. These people have never really been given anything regarding education; development; etc.

All politics is about maintaining and consolidating the status quo, btw. When you've never had anything, something tangible (hard cash; 30 baht healthcare; village development funds; etc) means a great deal to these people. They have always been exploited by the Bangkok elite, notwithstanding any one political party.

[Maestro]

If we were talking about intelligence testing for the election candidates,

In a way, that already exists: candidates for the House of Representatives and the Senate must have ”graduated with not lower than a Bachelor’s degree or its equivalent” (Sections 107 and 125 of Thailand’s constitution)

The same educational requirement applies to members of the Election Commission and to Ministers.

--------------

Maestro

[tourleadersi]

If we were talking about intelligence testing for the election candidates,

In a way, that already exists: candidates for the House of Representatives and the Senate must have ”graduated with not lower than a Bachelor’s degree or its equivalent” (Sections 107 and 125 of Thailand’s constitution)

The same educational requirement applies to members of the Election Commission and to Ministers.

--------------

Maestro

Thanks maestro. I am a graduate myself and feel qualified to argue that having a degree is not necessarily a mark of intelligence when applied to running a country. Especially not a country where you can go down to KSR and buy a degree for 200 Baht!

Perhaps I am misguided in asking for an intelligence test because you have to be pretty smart to get yourself into a position to run for office. But I definately think a 'moral contract' could be entered into that could lead to prosecution if violated (I will not buy votes etc) and close scrutiny and enforcement of manifestos would really help this and many other countries.

As a student I voted for Labour in the UK because they promised to help students and we were beginning to be hurt with all the loans and reduced grants. They got in and during the summer when all the Students Unions were innactive they passed a law that abolished all grants from then on and made students pay their fees as well. I know the classic arguement is that 'you can always vote them out next time' but really, where is the accountability in it? Had I started my degree 5 years earlier I would have had no debt, as it was I graduated owing 8K, if I had started it 3 years later that figure would have been closer to 25K.

I appreciate that Governments cannot do all that they promised due to changing circumstances, but a non-political overseer could decide if that is the case. I know its all pie in the sky dreaming, but please grant me 30 minutes of hippiedom!

[Arsenal]

This is an old old concern.Since the late eighteenth century and the emergence of representative democracy there have been concerns that the electorate should be qualified in some way, whether by sex.race, property ownership, wealth or education.Broadly speaking the concern was that mass democracy would result in anarchy.These were not imaginary concerns but over the course of time we have in the West seen full democracy (ie universal suffrage) accepted as the norm.

Although the political philosophy of Edmund Burke may not be familiar to all, one lasting legacy is that -taking the UK as an example- MPs are not bound to vote according to the wishes of the electorate but according to their consciences.Of course in practice MPs are often "whipped" into voting positions, but on some matters (eg the death penalty) MPs will vote what is right as opposed to what the mob wants.

It is no coincidence that once universal suffrage is accepted, there is a need to improve the educational standard of the people.As Robert Lowe said after the electoral Reform Act of 1867, "We must educate our masters".

Here in Thailand we have universal suffrage but a rotten educational system, particularly in the rural areas.Obviously priority needs to be given to improving standards.It can be done as the South Koreans have shown in a couple of generations though I'm not sure the Thais are made of quite the same right stuff.But the next 20 years are going in my view to be a rocky political ride in Thailand.The one certainty seems to me is that there is going to be a reallocation of wealth and influence away from the Sino Thai elite to ordinary Thais.

[Noel]

Should there be an Intelligence Test for Voting

Now back to the original question. Should there be some level of intelligence test , however minor to qualify a citizen to vote? Also shouldn't there be some test, much more in depth than how much money a politico has to distribute; perhaps some test of his/her abilities to run for a respective office ?

I would be interested to hear other opinions .

Such thinking perhaps lends itself to people having 'intelligence' tests before being allowed to procreate.

Who defines what 'intelligence' level is acceptable...?

[britmaveric]

Fk no - candidates job to educate the people on their position. Giving voting rights based on education well isn't democracy - basically elitist and wrong.

[mrbojangles]

The less educated workers still contribute to the wealth of a country and so should be allowed to vote. Period.

However, i think there is something to be said for lazy SOB who don't work (pensioners and medically ill not included). If theyr'e not paying taxes and putting into the system, why should they be able to have a voice, as to how the system is governed.

After all, they'd probably only vote for the party which promised better free housing and increased "lazy SOB handout's"

[farangsay]

The whole of the N.E. (Isarn) seems to be one big voting bloc for "pooyai's" to drive through, dressed in rural garb; throwing trinkets out to the throngs. These people have never really been given anything regarding education; development; etc.

All politics is about maintaining and consolidating the status quo, btw. When you've never had anything, something tangible (hard cash; 30 baht healthcare; village development funds; etc) means a great deal to these people. They have always been exploited by the Bangkok elite, notwithstanding any one political party.

I'm not sure if the above reply is totally on-topic but it does IMHO express in a nutshell

what the good doctor and his pals managed to grasp and people marching around Bangkok

with placards still don't seem to understand.

You may get votes from speeches , but you'll get a lot more if you do something for a

mass of people who have previously been neglected by the "elite".

I can think of the FIS in Algeria and Hamas in Palestine.

Most of their support comes not from their radical stances but the fact they were active

in neglected communities providing social services , healthcare and education.

To get back on topic , maybe the "intelligence testers" should research eugenics.

[Gonzo the Face]

The whole of the N.E. (Isarn) seems to be one big voting bloc for "pooyai's" to drive through, dressed in rural garb; throwing trinkets out to the throngs. These people have never really been given anything regarding education; development; etc.

All politics is about maintaining and consolidating the status quo, btw. When you've never had anything, something tangible (hard cash; 30 baht healthcare; village development funds; etc) means a great deal to these people. They have always been exploited by the Bangkok elite, notwithstanding any one political party.

I'm not sure if the above reply is totally on-topic but it does IMHO express in a nutshell

what the good doctor and his pals managed to grasp and people marching around Bangkok

with placards still don't seem to understand.

You may get votes from speeches , but you'll get a lot more if you do something for a

mass of people who have previously been neglected by the "elite".

I can think of the FIS in Algeria and Hamas in Palestine.

Most of their support comes not from their radical stances but the fact they were active

in neglected communities providing social services , healthcare and education.

To get back on topic , maybe the "intelligence testers" should research eugenics.

While not exactly the same, but related, In the US, as an example, much weight, prior to an election, in given to publishing the results of the candidates "physical" . Also to the annual physical given to the President.

Here in Thailand, I would feel same in assuming that there are also physicals given, but would also make a guess that if there were any negative aspects uncovered in the candidates health, they, shall we say, would be bought off.

But nowhere, have I ever heard of "mental" or psychologial , testing being done. Cripes, both my worlds, the US and Thailand would be much better off had this been done 5-6 years ago.

[Phil Conners]

There should, and not just in Thailand. US needs one too!

[Gonzo the Face]

Received this in my email today....

I would think it to be very interesting if there were a comparable report for our great leader here in Thailand and his predecessors.

Of course this following is a forgone conclusion....

================================

This ain't no joke

Subject: Presidential IQ Study - Very Interesting

A report published Monday, the Lovenstein Institute of Scranton, Pennsylvania, detailed its findings of a four month study of the intelligence quotient of President George W. Bush.

Since 1973, the Lovenstein Institute has published its research to

the educational community on each new president, which includes the

famous "IQ" report among others.

There have been twelve presidents over the past 50 years, from

F.D.Roosevelt to G.W. Bush, who were rated based on scholarly achievements:

1. Writings that they produced without aid of staff and

2. Their ability to speak with clarity, and several other psychological factors, which were then scored using the Swanson/ C rain system of intelligence ranking.

The study determined the following IQs of each president as accurate to within five percentage points. In order by presidential term:

Franklin Delano Roosevelt [D] 142,

Harry S Truman [D] 132,

Dwight David Eisenhower [R] 122

John Fitzgerald Kennedy [D] 174,

Lyndon Baines Johnson [D] 126,

Richard Milhous Nixon [R] 155,

Gerald R. Ford [R] 121,

James Earle Carter [D] 175,

Ronald Wilson Reagan [R] 105

George Herbert Walker Bush [R] 98,

William Jefferson Clinton [D] 182,

George Walker Bush [R] 91

In order of IQ rating:

182 . William Jefferson Clinton [D]

175 . . James Earle Carter [D]

174 . . John Fitzgerald Kennedy [D]

155 . . Richard Milhous Nixon [R]

147 . . Franklin Delano Roosevelt [D]

132 . . Harry S Truman [D]

126 . . Lyndon Baines Johnson [D]

122 . . Dwight David Eisenhower [R]

121 . . Gerald R. Ford [R]

105 . . Ronald Wilson Reagan [R]

098 . . George Herbert Walker Bush [R]

091 . . George Walker Bush [R]

The six Republican presidents of the past 50 years had an average

IQ of 115.5, with President Nixon having the highest at 155. President George W. Bush rated the lowest of all the Republicans with an IQ of 91.

The six Democratic presidents of the past 50 years had an average IQ of 156, with President Clinton having the highest IQ, at 182. President Lyndon B. Johnson was rated the lowest of all the Democrats with an IQ of 126. No president other than Carter [D] has released his actual IQ (176).

Among comments made concerning the specific testing of President G.W. Bush, his low ratings are due to his apparently difficult command of the English language in public statements, his limited use of vocabulary (6,500 words for Bush versus an average of 11,000 words for other presidents), his lack of scholarly achievements other than a basic MBA, and an absence of any body of work which could be studied on an intellectual basis.

The complete report documents the methods and procedures used to arrive

at these ratings, including depth of sentence structure and voice stress

confidence analysis.

"All the Presidents prior to George W. Bush had at least one book under their belt, and most had written several papers during their education or early careers. Not so with President Bush," Dr. Lovenstein said. "He has no published works or writings, which made it more difficult to arrive at an assessment. We relied more heavily on transcripts of his unscripted public speaking."

The Lovenstein Institute of Scranton, Pennsylvania think tank includes high caliber historians, psychiatrists, sociologists, scientists in human behavior, and psychologists. Among their ranks are Dr. Werner R. Lovenstein, world-renowned sociologist, and Professor Patricia F. Dilliams, a world-respected psychiatrist.

[NovaBlue05]

The Lovenstein Institute of Scranton, Pennsylvania think tank includes high caliber historians, psychiatrists, sociologists, scientists in human behavior, and psychologists. Among their ranks are Dr. Werner R. Lovenstein, world-renowned sociologist, and Professor Patricia F. Dilliams, a world-respected psychiatrist.

So....If you fire them out of a cannon, do they travel farther or simply do more damage when they strike the intended target?

[alexth]

Yes, it should be one. Look at Bush, he is still president. As for the thais...I think that more than 40% of the voters don't have an exact ideea of what voting means

[steveromagnino]

relied more heavily on transcripts of his unscripted public speaking."

The Lovenstein Institute of Scranton, Pennsylvania think tank includes high caliber historians, psychiatrists, sociologists, scientists in human behavior, and psychologists. Among their ranks are Dr. Werner R. Lovenstein, world-renowned sociologist, and Professor Patricia F. Dilliams, a world-respected psychiatrist.

Oh dear, a lot of rubbish, false and an urban legend (check on snope if you don't believe it):

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/presiq.htm

I bet you also think that a bunch of Nigerians really do have $30m USD that they want to share with you, and that if you forward that hotmail poll on then you will get a free ipod?!

Maybe they shouldn't allow people who spread rubbish described as 'news' to vote either?!

While I am all in favour of only tax payers being able to vote, what about monks, activists, students and so on?

There is no perfect system.

As far as Isaan and vote buying goes....have an election with enforcement of existing laws and penalties, and you will start to find that the poor are capable of understanding and choosing a party.

Of course, ideal situation is for me to run everything. Except for the night safari, they seem to be doing a stand up job up there.

[samran]

Of course, ideal situation is for me to run everything. Except for the night safari, they seem to be doing a stand up job up there.

Steve, Steve, Steve!

I though the deal was that I would rule the world. I'd concentrate on the big picture stuff, and you could look after the day to day running of things.

[Gonzo the Face]

Yes, it should be one. Look at Bush, he is still president. As for the thais...I think that more than 40% of the voters don't have an exact ideea of what voting means

You know you are quite correct with perhaps one exception. A great amount of the rural country people look forward to each and every election, then the are able to collect the "vote for me money" that they all look forward too, but of course no politican would do that,,,, would they ??????

[steveromagnino]

Of course, ideal situation is for me to run everything. Except for the night safari, they seem to be doing a stand up job up there.

Steve, Steve, Steve!

I though the deal was that I would rule the world. I'd concentrate on the big picture stuff, and you could look after the day to day running of things.

You get the world, and also the night safari, I'll mind the fort here.

Don't worry, I will let you visit, you are a citizen after all.

Among my first actions:

- increase all currency by a factor of 100, so all currency becomes a bit like the won with lots of zeroes. Then everyone can be millionaires, or close

- reduce the number of queues in THailand, by requiring everyone wait in one single long line for every medical, government, telephone, educational or retail matter

- increase the bio diversity in Thailand, by proclaiming each strand of The former PM's family's hairs to be a different breed, which in the case of Khunying Pojamon they probably are

- Declare the entire town of Saraburi to be a western theme park, and allow construction of a large rodeo powered entirely by lesbian robots

- eliminate murder, by creating a new type of manslaughter where you really meant to

- develop a large propoganda machine, which will be used to educate the humble kwai on how to eat diesel fumes instead of grass, and thus eliminate CO2 emissions and also allow for more vegans to move to Thailand

- become the hub of rugby, and not allow any more non-rugby tourists into the country unless they learn to toughen up. Aussie hakas not permitted. Shielas must be able to identify randomly selected All Blacks by name from a photo

That will take the first morning.

What will you get up to?

[Gonzo the Face]

relied more heavily on transcripts of his unscripted public speaking."

The Lovenstein Institute of Scranton, Pennsylvania think tank includes high caliber historians, psychiatrists, sociologists, scientists in human behavior, and psychologists. Among their ranks are Dr. Werner R. Lovenstein, world-renowned sociologist, and Professor Patricia F. Dilliams, a world-respected psychiatrist.

Oh dear, a lot of rubbish, false and an urban legend (check on snope if you don't believe it):

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/presiq.htm

I bet you also think that a bunch of Nigerians really do have $30m USD that they want to share with you, and that if you forward that hotmail poll on then you will get a free ipod?!

Maybe they shouldn't allow people who spread rubbish described as 'news' to vote either?!

While I am all in favour of only tax payers being able to vote, what about monks, activists, students and so on?

There is no perfect system.

As far as Isaan and vote buying goes....have an election with enforcement of existing laws and penalties, and you will start to find that the poor are capable of understanding and choosing a party.

Of course, ideal situation is for me to run everything. Except for the night safari, they seem to be doing a stand up job up there.

Steve you have my vote to be head chef at the Night Safari.

Look at what Thaksin has done to the country, and if that was not bad enough, he goes off to see his idol and to brown nose his 'good friend' dubbya and dubbya doesn't have time to see the great one.

As far as Bush look what he has done not only to the citizens of the US, but to the image of America throughout the world, and damage to most of the economies of the world, and you think that the IQ thing is a hoax. Isn't it just possible that your Snopes could be wrong. Oh wash my mouth out with soap for thinking such a thing.\\\

It never ceases to amaze me, how people could see with their own eyes Dubbya or Thakson robbing an little old lady in the town square at high noon, witnessed by the hundreds and still say it wasn't him, or he was made to do it, etc etc etc.

We are human, we make mistakes and that is terrible. What is absloutely Stoooopid is to keep making them just so we don't appear to have done anything wrond. !! FACE !!

As I have said in this forum before, I VOTED for the American Idiot the first time, but I feel that I have learned.

I would hope that if I were able to vote in Thailand, I would have enough sense not to vote for the guy who gives you 300 baht in one hand and then proceeds to take 30,000 from you with the other hand, and you don't even recognize the theft.

[Plus]

Of course they can't run IQ tests on people, but minimum voting age is a sort of a test for voters, and minimum education requirements is a test for candidates. Not perfect but something. Also while in office they are supposed to be subjected to some forms of control - they can't do any business on the side (in case of public servants business related to their position), ministers have to file annual income/assets reports and so on.

They have thought of it when they wrote the Constitution. It's the "check and balances" mantra from The Nation - it exactly what OP is asking for, quality control.

Do you remember from school that they had democracy in Greece, too, but slaves were excluded. Women were still excluded 100 years ago.

Thai peasants were given voting rights they have never asked for, a bit prematurely, I think. They still have no idea who to vote for until kamnan tells them. The fact that they work means nothing - they have no say in how their companies are run, why should they have a say in how the country is governed?

The argument that people have to pass tests to drive is also not applicable in Thailand - people just pay for DL, no lessons or tests.

Voter education is one of the government's jobs, but with TRT it meant turning voters into customers and politicians into salesmen. Totally wrong approach. I think Farangsay was guilty of the same when he assumed that people protested in Bangkok because they needed votes from peasants. He's right that it won't work, of course, if you need (to by/obtain) votes you should go looking where customers/peasants are.

[samran]

Of course, ideal situation is for me to run everything. Except for the night safari, they seem to be doing a stand up job up there.

Steve, Steve, Steve!

I though the deal was that I would rule the world. I'd concentrate on the big picture stuff, and you could look after the day to day running of things.

You get the world, and also the night safari, I'll mind the fort here.

Don't worry, I will let you visit, you are a citizen after all.

Among my first actions:

- increase all currency by a factor of 100, so all currency becomes a bit like the won with lots of zeroes. Then everyone can be millionaires, or close

- reduce the number of queues in THailand, by requiring everyone wait in one single long line for every medical, government, telephone, educational or retail matter

- increase the bio diversity in Thailand, by proclaiming each strand of The former PM's family's hairs to be a different breed, which in the case of Khunying Pojamon they probably are

- Declare the entire town of Saraburi to be a western theme park, and allow construction of a large rodeo powered entirely by lesbian robots

- eliminate murder, by creating a new type of manslaughter where you really meant to

- develop a large propoganda machine, which will be used to educate the humble kwai on how to eat diesel fumes instead of grass, and thus eliminate CO2 emissions and also allow for more vegans to move to Thailand

- become the hub of rugby, and not allow any more non-rugby tourists into the country unless they learn to toughen up. Aussie hakas not permitted. Shielas must be able to identify randomly selected All Blacks by name from a photo

That will take the first morning.

What will you get up to?

Make NZ the 7th Australian state in the morning.

Invade Thailand in the afternoon. Make myself a member of the RSBC for life. It'll be nice to have access to that that shortcut when driving though the race track.

Bomb Pattaya that evening.

[steveromagnino]

Make NZ the 7th Australian state in the morning.

Invade Thailand in the afternoon. Make myself a member of the RSBC for life. It'll be nice to have access to that that shortcut when driving though the race track.

Bomb Pattaya that evening.

You better pace yourself, of you won't have anything left to do for the rest of the millininum. Or the next 1000 years neither.