Koh Tao murder suspects retract confessions: 'interpreter assaulted us'

[SteveFong]

I'm not sure that's correct. Despite the not-guilty plea and retraction of the confession, I think that the prosecutor will still be able to introduce the confessions into evidence, although he would have a big challenge demonstrating the reliability of the confessions because the defense counsel would counter them in the way I described in my comment. I might be wrong, but unless the judge decides the confessions are so unreliable that they are not admissible into evidence, they will still be part of the case.

This is one objective of the Brit police. To examine the confession methodology, and allegations of coercion and torture. I would like to think that the prosecutor would realise he could not submit this evidence as being sound beyond all reasonable doubt.

In a normal case the prosecutor might submit everything and see what sticks ... leaving it up to the judge (or jury when there is one) to decide whether the evidence is reliable beyond a reasonable doubt (although prosecutors hate to even charge suspects unless they are almost certain they will win the case).

But this is not a normal case.

What is unusual about this case is that the Thai prosecutor (and his bosses all the way up the line) now realize that in order to "win" this case they have to do two things:

First, they have to prove to the judge that the evidence is reliable and the accused are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, in order to gain a conviction.

Second, they have to prove to the observers who will be watching in the courtroom that the evidence is reliable and the accused are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, in order for the Thai government to put this case to rest and remove the national and international spotlight and criticism it is experiencing.

Neither the prosecutor (and his superiors all the way up the line) nor the judge wants to be publicly hung out to dry by pushing a conviction based on evidence that is not reliable beyond a reasonable doubt in a case where they themselves will be under the spotlight. They know the accused now have good defense lawyers who will be able to demonstrate reasonable doubt if it exists. So they have sent the case back to the police once again to gather more circumstantial evidence to support a charge of rape and murder.

My guess is that the problem for the Thai police investigators will be that most or the remaining circumstantial evidence (including regarding the murder weapon, location and condition of the bodies, etc. etc.) will actually cut in favor of the accused rather than the prosecution's case--this is of course A GUESS based on publicly available information that I have personally read about. I have no idea what they may have available that is not public information.

They have nothing else, because the real killers have already destroyed the evidence

The only thing the Thai can do now,

is release the boys

and embark on a new investigation

had the Thai not put on this show, and put two people up for the murder who were asleep at the time,

and not announced the speedboat and the headmasters son and relatives as the #1 suspects.

this would have died down by now

it was the outrage sparked by what the Thai did that caused this fury

If they can read this, it is your only chance at redemption

try the real killers

nothing else will satisfy the social media storm which grows every day, because there is a new report somewhere, every day about, it,

and the Bangkok Post is loving it

[JLCrab]

Yeah, I agree with the posts above that Nom Sod doesn't look like a killer, but he very well could have been involved, hence the rush off the island. I figure it was Nom Sod and the other two in that photo that Sean took, the AC Bar mngr and the cop....they would have to stay on the island, but Nom Sod is better off skedaddling to BKK. It adds up.

Did you guys see the photo of the kid who detonated bombs at the Boston Marathon a few years back, did he look like a killer?

What does a killer look like?

That was an FBI job, and the kids were patsy's

Everyone in the US knows that was a drill, and people, were killed so an immediate bill would be passed further restricting the rights of Americans.

those kids were set ups, same as Ramsey Youseff in the 1993 WTC bombings,

he was recruited by the FBI, and he was smart enough to carry a hidden microphone

he was told it was going to be a fake bomb, it the beginning, and then, they switched it to a real bomb and he caught them on tape.

the US is not what it seems

Meanwhile, on Planet Earth, ...

[jdinasia]

Every innocent man on this planet would give a DNA sample. Especially when you have the support of the cops in your back pocket. Anyone argueing this is either on the take or on the take or ummmmm well I don't want to corrupt the white virgin innosence of TV members but really beyond help.... Is that def OK mods.... I know your still laughing at the one you deleted...

There is absolutely no way I would volunteer a DNA without a court order anywhere much less in Thailand. Those of you that keep referring to the police as corrupt to a man that say you would are certainly not applying any internal logic and again are relying on emotions.

[eldragon]

I worry that DNA was taken from these two lads and planted on Hannah's body. Then it'll match up.

Well, it's too late now, isn't it? The beaches are clean and the bodies are back in the UK.

[ScubaPhuket]

Thanks for highlighting Johnsen's point.

[SteveFong]

I'm not sure that's correct. Despite the not-guilty plea and retraction of the confession, I think that the prosecutor will still be able to introduce the confessions into evidence, although he would have a big challenge demonstrating the reliability of the confessions because the defense counsel would counter them in the way I described in my comment. I might be wrong, but unless the judge decides the confessions are so unreliable that they are not admissible into evidence, they will still be part of the case.

This is one objective of the Brit police. To examine the confession methodology, and allegations of coercion and torture. I would like to think that the prosecutor would realise he could not submit this evidence as being sound beyond all reasonable doubt.

"reasonable doubt " comes from jury trials in some Western countries. It is not a burden that the prosecution must use in a case. It is the basis for a conviction by a jury. They decide what is reasonable.

Thailand does not have a jury system. Judges decide based upon evidence and what they believe it to mean.

Exactly. I know that. And so does the prosecutor. He's not going to risk his reputation (at the very least) by submitting evidence to the judge(s) that, in his opinion, wouldn't pass this test. That's why he re-submitted the RTP report back to them to ask for more evidence.

You assume way too much

it was probably handed back because it was 900 pages of garbage, and he didnt want to waste his life reading through

garbage

[ParadiseLost]

Oh? Is it not true that the larger the sample the more reliable the results?

Exactly what type of DNA test will they have run?

While you are about it JD, why no reply to this question I posed?

ParadiseLost, on 16 Oct 2014 - 20:05, said:

There is still the question of the third DNA trace found on the female victim's torso. This was confirmed during an interview with police representatives on Channel 3 news - is this not pertinent to the case??

Umm I didn't see it? But frankly unless you consider all the police statements as accurate... Addressing one while you selectively ignore the next is futile.

\/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/

Link -> during an interview <- Link

/\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\

Can it be any clearer? It is in Thai, so best you find someone to translate... There is a translation of the most important detail though.

Or will you simply avoid the question, again?

[phanangpete]

Id be very surprised that a few don't flee that island when the British Police start sniffing around, interviewing a few,, being told by otherwise locals ,who have been afraid to talk, a few hinters !

Also it should be noted, as a previous poster has stated, that a few new members to this forum, are coming on trolling, and using baited posts, best not to even to rise to the bait !!

[jdinasia]

PL

I already responded.

[Gweiloman]

About embalming the body and DNA. Some have suggested that the process of embalming the body for transporting back to the UK will wipe out all DNA evidence. If this is true, is it only DNA outside the body or inside as well?

Hannah was raped and semen was present. One would imagine that some of this semen would have made it's way into the womb. Would the embalming process destroy the DNA evidence in the womb as well?

[SteveFong]

DNA has likely been faked, and destroyed as this would implicate the police tampering.

Expect the two boys to be released soon and the real sweating on Kho Tai to begin,

They have one week to let the kids go

Surely the original DNA tests processed in Singapore were recorded and copies kept in Singapore and these would be available for independent inspection.

I do not believe for one second, that DNA was sent to Singapore or anywhere out of Thailand within arms reach of the mafia that took over the investigation as soon as it knocked on their door

The RTP must have believed the PM when he said corruption and mafias were to be eradicated in Thailand,

those silly RTP

[SteveFong]

DNA has likely been faked, and destroyed as this would implicate the police tampering.

Expect the two boys to be released soon and the real sweating on Kho Tai to begin,

They have one week to let the kids go

Surely the original DNA tests processed in Singapore were recorded and copies kept in Singapore and these would be available for independent inspection.

My understanding is that DNA test results are stored digitally and that the digital file can be used for future DNA matching tests (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

So if the media reports/police statements were correct and the DNA originally removed from Hannah's body was in fact sent to a reliable and truly independent Singapore lab for testing to discover the ethnicity of the suspects (who were unknown at that time), then that digital file should still be in Singapore and available for comparison with a new DNA sample taken from the two accused men by their defense team. (There should also be proof of exactly when and how that original sample was received in Singapore, when the results were known, etc. etc.).

If this test is done now and they do match, then all of the chain of custody procedures should still be closely examined for gaps (and to see if an earlier sample--taken before they were arrested--from the two accused had also been sent to the lab and tested), and crime scene contamination is still a big issue for the reliability of any DNA match, along with other issues. And as you said, the testing procedures, as well as the facilities, equipment and personnel, could also be inspected to make sure they met the proper standards of reliability.

But if this new test is done and they don't match . . .

There were reports that it went to Chiang Mai, and Singapore was no longer being reported

They also never held a press conference to show everyone how right they were and what great police work they did and had any third party agency like DNA matches by the Singaporeans, they would have surely cocked and crowed, as someone else was confirming their brillance

Since these guys gave press conferences about all their other mis-steps, one would assume if there was independent verification of any of the BULLcrap ut out by RTP about the DNA, they would have crowed all over themselves and hogged the microphones

instead, they went about beatings of taxi drivers and young burmese who didnt even know why they were being beaten because the racist interpreter was a lying thieving con, who likely, does not float

[Ulic]

"Show me the DaNA" I just want to know if the DNA of these two guys matches the DNA

that was tested in Singapore. I am not interested in the results of testing in Thailand.

End of story

[SteveFong]

Id be very surprised that a few don't flee that island when the British Police start sniffing around, interviewing a few,, being told by otherwise locals ,who have been afraid to talk, a few hinters !

Also it should be noted, as a previous poster has stated, that a few new members to this forum, are coming on trolling, and using baited posts, best not to even to rise to the bait !!

it is pretty clear who the RTP moles are, as well as the Kho Tao moles

I dont answer them,

it is all now moot,

Scotland Yard is on the way,

the social media have saved the day,

If I were a killer and a rapist, nay,

I would be hightailing it out of there,

because every dog has its day.

They are screwed,

their lives as they knew it are now over,

and, it wouldnt surprise me, if bodies started floating onto shore soon,

that is the way this would be handled, by a REAL MAFIA

[Baerboxer]

"I take it you are an acknowledged expert on diplomacy? Since when has a PM had to consult an Ambassador about what he should do? The Ambassador will almost certainly have been told of the plans which is an entirely different thing altogether".

...but I am, and I can assure you that for the British PM not to have consulted the British Ambassador in Thailand, your statement and the concept is utterly ridiculous. Ambassadors are in place to give advice and an up-to-date assessment of the situation "on the ground".

Normally I would agree with your statement. That's the way it should work.

But, Cameron is a noted loose canon who often acts before consulting his own party or with respect to protocol. He's got one eye on the next election.

[Baerboxer]

Id be very surprised that a few don't flee that island when the British Police start sniffing around, interviewing a few,, being told by otherwise locals ,who have been afraid to talk, a few hinters !

Also it should be noted, as a previous poster has stated, that a few new members to this forum, are coming on trolling, and using baited posts, best not to even to rise to the bait !!

it is pretty clear who the RTP moles are, as well as the Kho Tao moles

I dont answer them,

it is all now moot,

Scotland Yard is on the way,

the social media have saved the day,

If I were a killer and a rapist, nay,

I would be hightailing it out of there,

because every dog has its day.

They are screwed,

their lives as they knew it are now over,

and, it wouldnt surprise me, if bodies started floating onto shore soon,

that is the way this would be handled, by a REAL MAFIA

Interesting. Everyone keeps going on about Scotland Yard. The deceased lady did not live in the area covered by the Metropolitan police force. Her family live in an area covered by the Norfolk Constabulary, who would be the investigating force.

South Wales Police came in regard to the still unsolved Kirsty Jones murder in Chiang Mai.

[SteveFong]

There is no DNA that went to Singapore

That was buried by the RTP, along with

1) the arrest of the killer is a headmans son

2) the second killer has fled to Bangkok

3) a speedboat was captured fleeing the scene

4) the evidence all points to the arrested headmans son

5) no Thai could ever do this

[heyexile]

"Show me the DaNA" I just want to know if the DNA of these two guys matches the DNA

that was tested in Singapore. I am not interested in the results of testing in Thailand.

End of story

Bit difficult if nothing was sent to Singapore i`d say. Even Jd now uses IF sent.

[SteveFong]

Id be very surprised that a few don't flee that island when the British Police start sniffing around, interviewing a few,, being told by otherwise locals ,who have been afraid to talk, a few hinters !

Also it should be noted, as a previous poster has stated, that a few new members to this forum, are coming on trolling, and using baited posts, best not to even to rise to the bait !!

it is pretty clear who the RTP moles are, as well as the Kho Tao moles

I dont answer them,

it is all now moot,

Scotland Yard is on the way,

the social media have saved the day,

If I were a killer and a rapist, nay,

I would be hightailing it out of there,

because every dog has its day.

They are screwed,

their lives as they knew it are now over,

and, it wouldnt surprise me, if bodies started floating onto shore soon,

that is the way this would be handled, by a REAL MAFIA

Interesting. Everyone keeps going on about Scotland Yard. The deceased lady did not live in the area covered by the Metropolitan police force. Her family live in an area covered by the Norfolk Constabulary, who would be the investigating force.

South Wales Police came in regard to the still unsolved Kirsty Jones murder in Chiang Mai.

if you were a rapist and brutal killer of a little girl,

you would fear the words Scotland Yard detectives,

and, mistakes will be made,

just keep saying that name over and over as you look in he mirror and if you were a killer, how would those words sound to you now?

[MJP]

A speculative post has been removed.

Forum rule 6) You will not post comments that could be reasonably construed as defamation or libel.

Defamation is the issuance of a statement about another person or business which causes that person to suffer harm. It does not have to be false to be defamatory. Libel is when the defamatory statement is published either in a drawing, painting, cinematography, film, picture or letters made visible by any means, or any other recording instruments, recording picture or letters, or by broadcasting or spreading picture, or by propagation by any other means. Defamation is both a civil and criminal charge in Thailand.

Krenjai, you're welcome to post a scenario but please leave the names out, just use Perp A, Perp B etc.

Thank you.

[Krenjai]

Ok, once again one of my crazy theories....

1) "You know who" raped Hannah with a view buddies

2) David may have come to the rescue (heard or saw something) but was killed in the fight (3 or 4 Thais versus 1 Falang), explains his knife wounds

3) Now she is a witness and needs to shut up forever

4) "You know who" panics and runs to "You know who-senior" saying something bad happened.

5) "You know who-senior" tells him to get the hell off the island to BKK on the next boat/plane

6) "You know who-senior" runs to his brother for help (first CCTV footage (running)

7) "You know who-senior" & brother contaminate crime scene beyond any logic, strip David, and use a hoe on Hannah

8) "You know who-senior" walks back at home ((second CCTV footage (walking))

Just MHO

9) Police initially looking in the right direction but they were hit by a truck filled with dosh!

[chrischronic]

Every innocent man on this planet would give a DNA sample. Especially when you have the support of the cops in your back pocket. Anyone argueing this is either on the take or on the take or ummmmm well I don't want to corrupt the white virgin innosence of TV members but really beyond help.... Is that def OK mods.... I know your still laughing at the one you deleted...

There is absolutely no way I would volunteer a DNA without a court order anywhere much less in Thailand. Those of you that keep referring to the police as corrupt to a man that say you would are certainly not applying any internal logic and again are relying on emotions.

You would refuse even if you were being attacked by social media, ruining your fathers business, scared to show your face in public, know that no one believes you, have friends not trust you , The whole world against you?

I think any innocent man would after all this.

[MJP]

A baiting post has been removed.

[northernjohn]

DNA has likely been faked, and destroyed as this would implicate the police tampering.

Expect the two boys to be released soon and the real sweating on Kho Tai to begin,

They have one week to let the kids go

Now as I understand you when the two killers are released the real sweating will begin.

Makes sense to me no need in worrying about them when they are locked up.

[sean420]

C'mon now..we all know they are being framed..do more DNA tests..but I think the DNA has been "lost"by now..I think its the sons of the island and they got money.."GOT MONEY?"get out of jail freecard..

[bunglebag]

Every innocent man on this planet would give a DNA sample. Especially when you have the support of the cops in your back pocket. Anyone argueing this is either on the take or on the take or ummmmm well I don't want to corrupt the white virgin innosence of TV members but really beyond help.... Is that def OK mods.... I know your still laughing at the one you deleted...

There is absolutely no way I would volunteer a DNA without a court order anywhere much less in Thailand. Those of you that keep referring to the police as corrupt to a man that say you would are certainly not applying any internal logic and again are relying on emotions.

Not even if there was intense speculation and accusations from many people in your own land and plenty from many foreign lands that you had committed a horrific crime and your reputation was taking a battering and giving a sample voluntarily that would clear you in a large amount of these accusations, and better still the people you were giving it to were in the pocket of your relative so it would not be used against you in any untoward way in future? Regardsless of what happens with the current Burmese suspects Nomsod will be forever labelled as one of the major players in these crimes unless he clears himself with a DNA sample.

Many innocent people in this situation would just give the DNA voluntarily imo to stop their name being damaged so badly.

[IslandLover]

Pattaya46, on 22 Oct 2014 - 08:36, said:

Correct. They were apparently cleared the first time...this alone will get them off.

Where did you see they were cleared? From Police reports I remember, the 2 suspects were part of a group of *hundreds* workers who got a DNA sample collected... but Police also said the DNA tests were made only for a few tens of people who were suspected at this time. The 2 final suspects were not in the short list, as their employer "forgot" to put them on his employees list...

Sounds like their "employer" was already setting them up to be scapegoats.

[jdinasia]

Every innocent man on this planet would give a DNA sample. Especially when you have the support of the cops in your back pocket. Anyone argueing this is either on the take or on the take or ummmmm well I don't want to corrupt the white virgin innosence of TV members but really beyond help.... Is that def OK mods.... I know your still laughing at the one you deleted...

There is absolutely no way I would volunteer a DNA without a court order anywhere much less in Thailand. Those of you that keep referring to the police as corrupt to a man that say you would are certainly not applying any internal logic and again are relying on emotions.

You would refuse even if you were being attacked by social media, ruining your fathers business, scared to show your face in public, know that no one believes you, have friends not trust you , The whole world against you?

I think any innocent man would after all this.

You can read!

[jdinasia]

Every innocent man on this planet would give a DNA sample. Especially when you have the support of the cops in your back pocket. Anyone argueing this is either on the take or on the take or ummmmm well I don't want to corrupt the white virgin innosence of TV members but really beyond help.... Is that def OK mods.... I know your still laughing at the one you deleted...

There is absolutely no way I would volunteer a DNA without a court order anywhere much less in Thailand. Those of you that keep referring to the police as corrupt to a man that say you would are certainly not applying any internal logic and again are relying on emotions.

Not even if there was intense speculation and accusations from many people in your own land and plenty from many foreign lands that you had committed a horrific crime and your reputation was taking a battering and giving a sample voluntarily that would clear you in a large amount of these accusations, and better still the people you were giving it to were in the pocket of your relative so it would not be used against you in any untoward way in future? Regardsless of what happens with the current Burmese suspects Nomsod will be forever labelled as one of the major players in these crimes unless he clears himself with a DNA sample.

Many innocent people in this situation would just give the DNA voluntarily imo to stop their name being damaged so badly.

You can read!!

Let's consider this for a second.

The police do not consider me a suspect. People claim that the DNA has been planted. People assuming a conspiracy have stated I am responsible with 0 actual proof. Nothing I can do will change their minds. So giving a non court ordered sample changes nothing. Yet that isn't why.

Let's now consider people claim the RTP are all dirty. Strangely these same people state that they would trust the RTP with evidence that could later be planted. That's nuts!

Yet the reason I would not has been clearly stated.

[IslandLover]

SteveFong, on 22 Oct 2014 - 18:40, said:

Oziex1, on 22 Oct 2014 - 07:34, said:

templedog, on 22 Oct 2014 - 05:15, said:

Yeah, I agree with the posts above that Nom Sod doesn't look like a killer, but he very well could have been involved, hence the rush off the island. I figure it was Nom Sod and the other two in that photo that Sean took, the AC Bar mngr and the cop....they would have to stay on the island, but Nom Sod is better off skedaddling to BKK. It adds up.

Did you guys see the photo of the kid who detonated bombs at the Boston Marathon a few years back, did he look like a killer?

What does a killer look like?

That was an FBI job, and the kids were patsy's

Everyone in the US knows that was a drill, and people, were killed so an immediate bill would be passed further restricting the rights of Americans.

those kids were set ups, same as Ramsey Youseff in the 1993 WTC bombings,

he was recruited by the FBI, and he was smart enough to carry a hidden microphone

he was told it was going to be a fake bomb, it the beginning, and then, they switched it to a real bomb and he caught them on tape.

the US is not what it seems

Now I know you're a conspiracy theorist