In the context of Thailand, what is a digital nomad?

[mrtoad]

Also happy to see the thread still up although you had no answer to some of the points I brought up, and instead switched to ad hominem attacks.

Cry me a river.

Seriously, your points have been answered ad hominem.

You and your crew gave chosen to accuse people of being over 50 retirees if they disagree.

[mrtoad]

They are likely out source contract workers. Not direcf employees

Certainly, especially in the case where the citizenship of the consultant differs from that of the client. Does not detract from the fact that long term rolling remote consultancy agreements including equity to the consultant exist, with the consultant also being the sole director of the company that is contracted, and with benefits to the consultant via contractual agreement that are akin to permanent employment.

No they are not, the work has been outsourced to a subcontracted company,

but seeing as you have brought this up, seeing as you say this is a kin to permanent employment, if a person is resident in Thailand and fulfilling the terms of this contract from Thailand, eg providing the service they are contacted to do, they are working / running a business in Thailand, ergo a WP is required

I don't agree, particularly if they are operating via a non Thai entity. They are working remotely for that company, not operating a Thai business.

He isnt a nomad though

[rwdrwdrwd]

I don't agree, particularly if they are operating via a non Thai entity. They are working remotely for that company, not operating a Thai business.

He isnt a nomad though

Might be, but also might not be - depends if they are actually moving around or not.

[mrtoad]

I don't agree, particularly if they are operating via a non Thai entity. They are working remotely for that company, not operating a Thai business.

He isnt a nomad though

Might be, but also might not be - depends if they are actually moving around or not.

Check his history.

[rwdrwdrwd]

I don't agree, particularly if they are operating via a non Thai entity. They are working remotely for that company, not operating a Thai business.

He isnt a nomad though

Might be, but also might not be - depends if they are actually moving around or not.

Check his history.

Sorry bit of confusion - I'm talking in general, when I say 'he'/'they' I'm referring to someone who has a contract of the type I described above, either direct employer/employee or client/consultant. Looks like you're talking about another member.

[mrtoad]

I hear you

[mrtoad]

I hear you

Apples to Oranges.

Nomads to Pikeys.

[bkkcanuck8]

Yes, they do. You can pretend to yourself that they do not, that's fine, but I can state categorically, having direct experience in such matters, that you are 100% incorrect. Of course nobody is going to post confidential agreements to ThaiVisa in order to disprove you, that would be stupid. But if you don't recognise that there is no legal reason why such contracts cannot exist, and that many do, you're simply burying your head in the sand.

The contracts I have seen do not tend to go into any detail regarding where the individual is located or will be located, since it is an irrelevance in the event the individual is not dealing with clients or representing the company to clients in that nation.

Sometimes these contracts are straight employment contracts, generally when this is the case the employee has citizenship and a social security number in the same country as the employer, receives payment in that country and is usually taxed as if they lived there.

Sometimes in the case where the employer and employee are from different countries, contracts are executed as consulting agreements via a b2b agreement, with the consultant making use of companies registered offshore and operating on an invoice basis. This is probably the most common solution, since it is simple to execute and the consultant's holding company becomes entirely responsible for adhering to any applicable employment and tax legislation.

And sometimes contracts are just oral agreements - which mine mostly are since I do work for companies that I have had associations before and they don't try to bind me with NDA or do not compete agreements because I probably know their systems better than any of the software developers that work there. Once work is done, I send them an invoice with my name (not a corporate entity) and they SWIFT the money into an offshore account of my choosing. I have no ties to my native land other than my passport so I am outside the taxing authority of Canada (more than 3 years out).

[ukrules]

As with most posters here, I have nothing against these people as they don't affect my job or way of life here in any way. If I need a technical service for work, I will approach a well established company. If I need a website done, I will either do it myself or approach a well established company. Always been that way, always will be that way.

Plenty of well established companies are operated with very significant levels of remote workers. AMEX, AT&T, Cisco, Deloitte, IBM, Microsoft, Intel, RedHat, Canonical, Mozilla, Automattic, 37Signals, Github, StackExchange to name a few. Not talking outsourcing here, I'm talking Western rates working from home on a permanent basis wherever that may be in the world, and indeed travelling and working, ie 'nomadic'. It's a factor in many major companies these days - big perk.

Those well established companies you reference may well assign remote workers to your job, could be the guy that some people on here assume makes cash from fogging fake Louis Vuitton on eBay.

So, these are digital nomads? They have the freedom to work from anywhere in the world remotely while under the employ of the established company?

Great! I really do think it is great that people can do that. Nothing against it.

But I will guarantee these are not the people making the songs and dances that they should be treated differently.

I would be very interested to see the policies or contracts from the established companies that you highlighted about remote working and the laws that govern work in the countries they represent said companies..........................

I work for an MNC in Thailand, and looking at some of the names mentioned, due to good corporate governance polices that will be in place within these companies, they would only employ a person directly in country where that person has right of abode or is legally permitted to work, its just not worth the hassle for say the likes of Microsoft to employ a foreigner directly who is living in Thailand and doesn't have a WP, big corporations they will not allow this to happen

So if there are foreigner's in Thailand working for say Microsoft 1 they either have a WP sponsored by Microsoft or 2 as the person is working remotely, he or she is not telling Microsoft were they are living

In my experience the higher you go the less respect is paid to corporate rules, even in companies who are specialising in such issues. It's all about being able to do something and get away with it or blame it on someone else.

They're more flexible than you might think, especially if they want something which is not so easy to get. They may well use middle men which is where the management consultant and corporate security / 'risk management' consultancies come in handy.

Edited October 26, 2014 by ukrules

[Soutpeel]

As with most posters here, I have nothing against these people as they don't affect my job or way of life here in any way. If I need a technical service for work, I will approach a well established company. If I need a website done, I will either do it myself or approach a well established company. Always been that way, always will be that way.

Plenty of well established companies are operated with very significant levels of remote workers. AMEX, AT&T, Cisco, Deloitte, IBM, Microsoft, Intel, RedHat, Canonical, Mozilla, Automattic, 37Signals, Github, StackExchange to name a few. Not talking outsourcing here, I'm talking Western rates working from home on a permanent basis wherever that may be in the world, and indeed travelling and working, ie 'nomadic'. It's a factor in many major companies these days - big perk.

Those well established companies you reference may well assign remote workers to your job, could be the guy that some people on here assume makes cash from fogging fake Louis Vuitton on eBay.

So, these are digital nomads? They have the freedom to work from anywhere in the world remotely while under the employ of the established company?

Great! I really do think it is great that people can do that. Nothing against it.

But I will guarantee these are not the people making the songs and dances that they should be treated differently.

I would be very interested to see the policies or contracts from the established companies that you highlighted about remote working and the laws that govern work in the countries they represent said companies..........................

I work for an MNC in Thailand, and looking at some of the names mentioned, due to good corporate governance polices that will be in place within these companies, they would only employ a person directly in country where that person has right of abode or is legally permitted to work, its just not worth the hassle for say the likes of Microsoft to employ a foreigner directly who is living in Thailand and doesn't have a WP, big corporations they will not allow this to happen

So if there are foreigner's in Thailand working for say Microsoft 1 they either have a WP sponsored by Microsoft or 2 as the person is working remotely, he or she is not telling Microsoft were they are living

In my experience the higher you go the less respect is paid to corporate rules, even in companies who are specialising in such issues. It's all about being able to do something and get away with it or blame it on someone else.

They're more flexible than you might think, especially if they want something which is not so easy to get. They may well use middle men which is where the management consultant and corporate security / 'risk management' consultancies come in handy.

Agreed this is why body shops exist, it takes the liability off the company, any issues and its the agencies problem

[Soutpeel]

They are likely out source contract workers. Not direcf employees

Certainly, especially in the case where the citizenship of the consultant differs from that of the client. Does not detract from the fact that long term rolling remote consultancy agreements including equity to the consultant exist, with the consultant also being the sole director of the company that is contracted, and with benefits to the consultant via contractual agreement that are akin to permanent employment.

No they are not, the work has been outsourced to a subcontracted company,

but seeing as you have brought this up, seeing as you say this is a kin to permanent employment, if a person is resident in Thailand and fulfilling the terms of this contract from Thailand, eg providing the service they are contacted to do, they are working / running a business in Thailand, ergo a WP is required

Debatable, particularly if they are operating via a non Thai entity. They are working remotely for that company, not operating a Thai business, servicing Thai clients or being paid in Thailand.

But as stated on numerous threads where you get, if you get paid or if your working for a Thai company or not has absolutely no bearing on the legal definition of work in Thailand

Phuket immigration/DOL and the lawyer in TV own ask the lawyer forum + others have categorically stated working on line in Thailand requires a WP now granted these are only opinions as are those which say you can and only place the law can't be tested is in a court

[rwdrwdrwd]

Debatable, particularly if they are operating via a non Thai entity. They are working remotely for that company, not operating a Thai business, servicing Thai clients or being paid in Thailand.

But as stated on numerous threads where you get, if you get paid or if your working for a Thai company or not has absolutely no bearing on the legal definition of work in Thailand

Phuket immigration/DOL and the lawyer in TV own ask the lawyer forum + others have categorically stated working on line in Thailand requires a WP now granted these are only opinions as are those which say you can and only place the law can't be tested is in a court

Have to say I have little faith in the advice given in that forum, many queries remain unanswered and often when answers are provided they feel short and lacking in pertinent additional information related to the query. Certainly the answers that are given are one lawyer's opinion.

I remember you mentioning the Phuket Immigraton comment previously, having read it it did not seem to bear any more weight that the contrarian comment by Chiang Mai Immigration more recently - a similar context, similarly short answer, and similar concerns that the respondant didn't understand the question fully.

For me the most notable and pertinent action is the release without charge of those arrested at PunSpace, which to me indicates that working online for non Thai entities, being paid outside of Thailand does not require a WP and is not considered a breach of TV or ED visa regulations.

Given these mixed messages, I agree with your final comment - the only way we'll get a definitive answer is when someone goes to court - this is why I say at the moment, 'debatable'.

Edited October 26, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[balo]

I guess I would consider myself a digital nomad in Thailand. But the work is only a few hours , maybe 2 hours per day. I write web content for EU companies and get paid monthly into my bank account in Europe.

This is something I do in my sparetime , I do not have to do it to survive since I already own a business in EU and I relax i Thailand just like any other farang.

I do not feel I break any rules, as long as I stay here legally.

[Soutpeel]

Debatable, particularly if they are operating via a non Thai entity. They are working remotely for that company, not operating a Thai business, servicing Thai clients or being paid in Thailand.

But as stated on numerous threads where you get, if you get paid or if your working for a Thai company or not has absolutely no bearing on the legal definition of work in Thailand

Phuket immigration/DOL and the lawyer in TV own ask the lawyer forum + others have categorically stated working on line in Thailand requires a WP now granted these are only opinions as are those which say you can and only place the law can't be tested is in a court

Have to say I have little faith in the advice given in that forum, many queries remain unanswered and often when answers are provided they feel short and lacking in pertinent additional information related to the query. Certainly the answers that are given are one lawyer's opinion.

I remember you mentioning the Phuket Immigraton comment previously, having read it it did not seem to bear any more weight that the contrarian comment by Chiang Mai Immigration more recently - a similar context, similarly short answer, and similar concerns that the respondant didn't understand the question fully.

For me the most notable and pertinent action is the release without charge of those arrested at PunSpace, which to me indicates that working online for non Thai entities, being paid outside of Thailand does not require a WP and is not considered a breach of TV or ED visa regulations.

Given these mixed messages, I agree with your final comment - the only way we'll get a definitive answer is when someone goes to court - this is why I say at the moment, 'debatable'.

The fact is in terms of the law is that its down to the individual official or department to interpret what constitutes work in a specific set of circumstances therefore no 1 answer or example is correct , therefore a someone maybe "legal" in CM and illegal in Phuket it depends in whose jurisdiction your in, this is why this argument goes round and round all the time, there is no one correct answer

But with reference to the comments in CM, my understanding is the comments made by CM immigration where taken out of context by the journo, which was confirmed by a TV member who was at the meeting

[bkkcanuck8]

As with most posters here, I have nothing against these people as they don't affect my job or way of life here in any way. If I need a technical service for work, I will approach a well established company. If I need a website done, I will either do it myself or approach a well established company. Always been that way, always will be that way.

Plenty of well established companies are operated with very significant levels of remote workers. AMEX, AT&T, Cisco, Deloitte, IBM, Microsoft, Intel, RedHat, Canonical, Mozilla, Automattic, 37Signals, Github, StackExchange to name a few. Not talking outsourcing here, I'm talking Western rates working from home on a permanent basis wherever that may be in the world, and indeed travelling and working, ie 'nomadic'. It's a factor in many major companies these days - big perk.

Those well established companies you reference may well assign remote workers to your job, could be the guy that some people on here assume makes cash from fogging fake Louis Vuitton on eBay.

So, these are digital nomads? They have the freedom to work from anywhere in the world remotely while under the employ of the established company?

Great! I really do think it is great that people can do that. Nothing against it.

But I will guarantee these are not the people making the songs and dances that they should be treated differently.

I would be very interested to see the policies or contracts from the established companies that you highlighted about remote working and the laws that govern work in the countries they represent said companies..........................

I work for an MNC in Thailand, and looking at some of the names mentioned, due to good corporate governance polices that will be in place within these companies, they would only employ a person directly in country where that person has right of abode or is legally permitted to work, its just not worth the hassle for say the likes of Microsoft to employ a foreigner directly who is living in Thailand and doesn't have a WP, big corporations they will not allow this to happen

So if there are foreigner's in Thailand working for say Microsoft 1 they either have a WP sponsored by Microsoft or 2 as the person is working remotely, he or she is not telling Microsoft were they are living

A MNC like Microsoft would have problems hiring contractors "overseas" since many corporations have Thai Corporate subsiduaries. It is no different than a Thai company hiring a contract worker in Thailand, since there is a corporate presence in Thailand they would be in violation of Thai laws if they hired someone without a WP.

[rwdrwdrwd]

I work for an MNC in Thailand, and looking at some of the names mentioned, due to good corporate governance polices that will be in place within these companies, they would only employ a person directly in country where that person has right of abode or is legally permitted to work, its just not worth the hassle for say the likes of Microsoft to employ a foreigner directly who is living in Thailand and doesn't have a WP, big corporations they will not allow this to happen

So if there are foreigner's in Thailand working for say Microsoft 1 they either have a WP sponsored by Microsoft or 2 as the person is working remotely, he or she is not telling Microsoft were they are living

A MNC like Microsoft would have problems hiring contractors "overseas" since many corporations have Thai Corporate subsiduaries. It is no different than a Thai company hiring a contract worker in Thailand, since there is a corporate presence in Thailand they would be in violation of Thai laws if they hired someone without a WP.

I'm not saying these companies would employ / contract someone living in Thailand from an overseas office if they have a Thai subsidiary - sounds very, very risky.

There are quite a few companies that don't have a Thai subsidiary though, certainly a number of those I mentioned do not, and in these cases it's possible, although much more likely to be operated on a B2B contract with the individual as a named consultant.

Edited October 26, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[theguyfromanotherforum]

I would suggest that some "digital nomad" bashers try selling a fake LV on eBay. Hell, let's make it easy. Try selling a real LV on eBay and see what happens. Your account will be limited before you can spell "digital nomad".

I think bashers really have no clue how difficult it really is to conduct anything remotely illegal online.

Hell, even on Alibaba I am not seeing anything that resembles a copyright infringement.

Keep on bashing.

[NanLaew]

I would suggest that some "digital nomad" bashers try selling a fake LV on eBay. Hell, let's make it easy. Try selling a real LV on eBay and see what happens. Your account will be limited before you can spell "digital nomad".

...

So that's why you're so upset. Now I understand.

How much do you want for it then?

The fake one I mean.

[TheSpade]

The first time in my life I heard about digital Nomads was about a month ago when the thread appeared on TVF.

From what I understood from that thread is that digital nomads are mainly young people that have an idea of how to use a computer and try to convince themselves that they have a job.

The don't offer any benefits to anybody, no taxes paid no social security just instead of trying to find a proper job they are pissing around the globe pretending they offer something to society.

From what I understood also they are earning a pittance of money.

I would call them lazy bums and I would advise them to go and get a job.

See this is total nonsense.

Digital Nomads have businesses not jobs. They don't need jobs. Jobs are for people who are not capable of building their own business, making money for themselves, or doing their own thing in life.

Most DO pay taxes wherever their business was founded, usually their home country. UNLESS their home country has a rule that anyone out of the country for a certain period of the year does NOT have to pay taxes.

This is the rule of their home country the DM is simply following it.

Benefits to anyone? No more or less than a regular employed person. In fact in a way they are benefiting people because they aren't taking away jobs which are already scarce in most countries round the world and they aren't sitting around claiming benefits like so many who "can't find a job".

Never heard any DM claim they offer anything to society but again no more or less than a regular worker.

Some don't earn much hence living in places like Thailand. Others earn a lot and choose to live in Thailand because they like it. Many in between. Like any other person really.

Lazy?

Someone who is motivated enough to build their own business, make their own money, and travel the world / live abroad can't be called lazy.

Totally ridiculous statements from you.

In the Thailand, context, people who flog fake goods, and gamble on line , distribute porn also claim to be digital nomads as well

And before the members of the ALBC get all up in arms, I have no issue with concept of a digital nomad provided what they are doing is legal in the country they are in

However I do take exception to those living in Thailand long term who are not really "nomads" claiming they should be afforded a special visa or considerations all because they carry a lap top under their arms, which even people who are legally employed in Thailand do as well

I haven't really seen any DMs on here claiming there should be a special visa for them. Most just can't see why so many people on here get so upset about it when the Thai's and immigration clearly don't care (PunSpace incident for one shows that)

And there's a special visa for the over 55s....the retirement visa. Awarded to people for no other reason than their age. People didn't do anything special to get that just happened to be born at a certain time.

As long as you can show money then you get the visa so can't see why having a similar visa for under 55s who also have that money can't be created?

It's perfectly logical no matter where their money comes from. I doubt that retirees have to prove where their money came from and that it was earned in a legitimate fashion.

These topics are always totally ridiculous.

The same crap gets spouted over and over again from what I can only imagine is jealous old men with nothing better to do. Otherwise I can't see why it would annoy you so much,

Here's the usual statements.....

The "digital nomads are making porn, gambling, and selling drugs" nonsense when in fact that's not what most are doing and there's probably plenty of retirees and others in the country doing similar.

They don't pay taxes....except many do or are exempt because of rules made by their own country.

They are breaking the law....except the law isn't clear so they might not be and the people spouting this over and over have usually broken the law in Thailand themselves by having sex with prostitutes among other things.

They should pay tax in Thailand if they are "living" here and earning money......except though their whole business is outside of Thailand and none of the income is made in Thailand. And yet no one ever says that retirees or those on education visas should pay tax here. Even though the OAPs income is coming in from abroad just like the DMs is. No difference really. One is for work done in the past. And others for work done more recently.

It's boring to read the same old nonsense over and over. I don't go into threads about retirement and voice my uneducated opinion on everything and anything I can so not sure why we get so many guys who have nothing to do with digital nomads, clearly don't understand it, don't know anything about it or anyone who does it yet think they are experts and need to voice their opinion on it so strongly over and over.

[mrtoad]

Real Digital Nomads will not have a problem, visa abusers that claim they are a Nomad are very different.

[phpsql]

As I stated in the other thread, my opinion is that this is simply a question of visceral dislike and also jealousy by some people because they don't consider online work as real work, because they consider the work is too easy, because they don't have the same flexibility in working hours and location and because they probably also dislike the "internet smartasses"...

The stench of envy in the previous thread was almost overpowering. This time around it's less evident.

Extreme ignorance still exists, though.

[phpsql]

It's boring to read the same old nonsense over and over. I don't go into threads about retirement and voice my uneducated opinion on everything and anything I can so not sure why we get so many guys who have nothing to do with digital nomads, clearly don't understand it, don't know anything about it or anyone who does it yet think they are experts and need to voice their opinion on it so strongly over and over.

The Forum Law of Inverse Proportionality.

A forum members knowledge of a given subject is inversely proportional to his post count.

(The "law" doesn't always apply, but it's generally a solid benchmark)

[phpsql]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Trust me your hopelessly wrong as well,

Let's do away with the childishness, okay?

Drop it.

Seems like you are setting the rules for this discussion, have exception to differing views?

I take exception to uneducated trolls attempting to derail threads with their envy-inspired prejudices.

[mrtoad]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Trust me your hopelessly wrong as well,

Let's do away with the childishness, okay?

Drop it.

Seems like you are setting the rules for this discussion, have exception to differing views?

I take exception to uneducated trolls attempting to derail threads with their envy-inspired prejudices.

Uneducated ?

I am intrigued...

[theguyfromanotherforum]

I would suggest that some "digital nomad" bashers try selling a fake LV on eBay. Hell, let's make it easy. Try selling a real LV on eBay and see what happens. Your account will be limited before you can spell "digital nomad".

...

So that's why you're so upset. Now I understand.

How much do you want for it then?

The fake one I mean.

Nice try.

As someone who buys a lot of stuff online, I am very happy that I can get my money back via multiple channels if the things go sour. You should really give it a try. You can't lose money even if you are a dummy. I say join the digital revolution... you really are missing out on some good bargains.

Or are you a type a person that pays 1000 baht for a blu ray from B2S..... when you can get it from Amazon for 150 baht?

An elite visa customer perhaps?

[jspill]

Real Digital Nomads will not have a problem, visa abusers that claim they are a Nomad are very different.

I read this as 'I'm losing the debate, I'll latch on to the fact jspill doesn't turn up to his Thai classes and doesn't leave Thailand much'.

Nomads have already left their country to generate passive income in Thailand, that's nomadic. Maybe I'll do 15 years here then try Vietnam. I've done a couple weeks here and there in Laos, Cambo, Phils, and moved around between BKK, Udon and Hua Hin. If that's not nomadic enough for you draw me up a travel itinerary and I'll do my best to tour around a bit more.

[chrisinth]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Trust me your hopelessly wrong as well,

Let's do away with the childishness, okay?

Drop it.

Seems like you are setting the rules for this discussion, have exception to differing views?

I take exception to uneducated trolls attempting to derail threads with their envy-inspired prejudices.

Envy-inspired prejudices? I could almost guarantee that the people you are aiming that comment at are on better wages/income than 95% of DN's living, or wanting to live in Thailand. Note I am stating Thailand.

Yes, they may be slightly older, but they have already enjoyed (and are most probably bored with) travel.

Some people contributing to this OP obviously haven't reached this stage of growing up yet.........................

[mrtoad]

Real Digital Nomads will not have a problem, visa abusers that claim they are a Nomad are very different.

I read this as 'I'm losing the debate, I'll latch on to the fact jspill doesn't turn up to his Thai classes and doesn't leave Thailand much'.

Nomads have already left their country to generate passive income in Thailand, that's nomadic. Maybe I'll do 15 years here then try Vietnam. I've done a couple weeks here and there in Laos, Cambo, Phils, and moved around between BKK, Udon and Hua Hin. If that's not nomadic enough for you draw me up a travel itinerary and I'll do my best to tour around a bit more.

Why do you think it's all about you?

Yes, you gave yourself an example of how you circumvent visa regulations.

As for losing the debate, not really , but you aren't really a nomad either. Some of us "oldies" as you like to call us are probably more nomadic.

[mrtoad]

As I stated in the other thread, my opinion is that this is simply a question of visceral dislike and also jealousy by some people because they don't consider online work as real work, because they consider the work is too easy, because they don't have the same flexibility in working hours and location and because they probably also dislike the "internet smartasses"...

The stench of envy in the previous thread was almost overpowering. This time around it's less evident.

Extreme ignorance still exists, though.

Envy of what?

You keep telling yourself that, it's fine if it makes you feel better.

[asdecas]

Or you could learn the markets and trade forex. More earning potential when you know what your doing

The operative words being "...when you know what your (sic) doing".

Anyone considering this seemingly money-for-nothing approach to income should look carefully at the statistics; it's a zero-sum game and far more punters lose than win. Most traders have neither the technical means to match professionals nor the understanding to do well.