British authorities at Koh Tao crime scene

[jdinasia]

Why don't the Burmese give their DNA to the British Police and ask them to send it back to Britain for analysis... Easy.

Easy?

I'm not convinced

You shouldn't be. That would be interfering in a domestic criminal investigation.

However, the defense lawyers have sent DNA for testing, as they should.

[Expat Girl]

In any murder investigation in a civilized country, the prosecution would have to produce evidence which included something very, very important....MOTIVE

Where was the motive in this case and please don't give the bullsh*t that the 2 Burmese were aroused by the actions of the victims.

Now when the toxicology reports become public knowledge, if there was evidence of a date rate drug......we begin to see a motive.

If the RTP had followed up earlier claims of Foreign female tourists rape claims on Koh Tao, maybe they would have caught the murderers before they had committed another crime.

Why has the RTP not done any mobile phone investigation ie phone records, sms records...WHY? because they know they will lead to people who are untouchable

The checks you describe may well have been done, but excluded from the case as they help the wrong side...

Consider the presence of a third DNA trace, confirmed by a police pathologist - on national TV. But not part of the case...

Also, still no explanation how Gen Panya could confirm seeing cctv evidence one day but deny it the next...

I don't believe anything the RTP say now. This is more third world than Africa.

"have been done "

Really?

Another conspiracy theory.

"may well have been done"

[jdinasia]

Strange, the same people who earlier stated that it would clear everything up and prove his innocence, are now not satisfied

[jdinasia]

In any murder investigation in a civilized country, the prosecution would have to produce evidence which included something very, very important....MOTIVE

Where was the motive in this case and please don't give the bullsh*t that the 2 Burmese were aroused by the actions of the victims.

Now when the toxicology reports become public knowledge, if there was evidence of a date rate drug......we begin to see a motive.

If the RTP had followed up earlier claims of Foreign female tourists rape claims on Koh Tao, maybe they would have caught the murderers before they had committed another crime.

Why has the RTP not done any mobile phone investigation ie phone records, sms records...WHY? because they know they will lead to people who are untouchable

The checks you describe may well have been done, but excluded from the case as they help the wrong side...

Consider the presence of a third DNA trace, confirmed by a police pathologist - on national TV. But not part of the case...

Also, still no explanation how Gen Panya could confirm seeing cctv evidence one day but deny it the next...

I don't believe anything the RTP say now. This is more third world than Africa.

"have been done "

Really?

Another conspiracy theory.

"may well have been done"

Fair enough. It is a conspiracy theory and not stated as fact.

"but not part of the case " however, is stated as fact

[sweatalot]

Still just rather see video footage.. That for sure can never be shown... Why DNA test now. Should have been done immediately. Of course doing it now makes it look suspicious and adds more questions. Video footage and phone records please.

We can't have it all ways. We have all been asking (well apart from all the J's) that he take a very public DNA test to put him at the scene or clear him.

If it is done transparently and it clears him then in my book he is clear of been at the crime scene.

Really?

He would be clear only on not having had sex with the victim

He could still be the murderer !

Everybody be aware of this

Edited October 29, 2014 by sweatalot

[Expat Girl]

@jdinasia

"but not part of the case" however, is stated as fact.

Fair point, do agree with you.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Expat Girl

[sweatalot]

just to add to my previous post... without giving away any state secrets.....

if you have a smart phone with location services enabled.........

it is like leaving a trail of breadcrumbs behind you.

You can be tracked to within a few cm of your location on an ongoing basis. (this is not the same data as cell data)

I'm assuming that people that should know this information do in fact know it.

Unfortunately you are wrong.

You can be tracked to within a few cm of your location on an ongoing basis.

Not true. Not YOU can be tracked only the PHONE.

If this becomes important I'm sure he borrowed his phone to a stranger - or he lost it ...

[mcm991]

Everyone is getting too hung up on the DNA.

It is just too unreliable at this stage because of contamination of the crime scene and possible manipulation afterwards.

And remember, there is a Third suspect conveniently forgotton about at this stage.

There is a story that needs telling about that night and I'm sure a comprehensive statement was taken from David's friend(s) who were with him.

Then you look at motive and opportunity. This was a very brutal crime ........ not a casual feel up the skirt.

Never lose sight of the big picture ....... and the answers tend to present themselves sometimes.......

[mcm991]

just to add to my previous post... without giving away any state secrets.....

if you have a smart phone with location services enabled.........

it is like leaving a trail of breadcrumbs behind you.

You can be tracked to within a few cm of your location on an ongoing basis. (this is not the same data as cell data)

I'm assuming that people that should know this information do in fact know it.

Unfortunately you are wrong.

You can be tracked to within a few cm of your location on an ongoing basis.

Not true. Not YOU can be tracked only the PHONE.

If this becomes important I'm sure he borrowed his phone to a stranger - or he lost it ...

I stand corrected. It is the phone not the person.

(and I'll add that this data is far easier to extract from the phone itself rather than the other way round)

[joebrown]

Still just rather see video footage.. That for sure can never be shown... Why DNA test now. Should have been done immediately. Of course doing it now makes it look suspicious and adds more questions. Video footage and phone records please.

We can't have it all ways. We have all been asking (well apart from all the J's) that he take a very public DNA test to put him at the scene or clear him.

If it is done transparently and it clears him then in my book he is clear of been at the crime scene.

Is the DNA the only thing to be proved/disproved?

The police issued a clip of a CCTV video taken near the beach about the time of the murder. It showed the 'running man (with the left arm deformity), and judging by the height/build of the person pictured it's remarkably like Nomsod and nothing like the 2 in custody, as they are much smaller in stature!

[Mooner]

Strange, the same people who earlier stated that it would clear everything up and prove his innocence, are now not satisfied

The RTP have already said that the DNA of the Burmese matches the DNA on Hannah right?? That is why they are so confident!

If this is the case then Nomsods DNA cant possibly match! Also you can be involved in a murder without actually being involved in a rape.

I think his phone records to make sure he wasn't in Ko Tao and maybe some CCTV from the airport very early that morning would be much more conclusive. Then if he is telling the truth he must be innocent. If they prove otherwise what is he hiding?

[TTom911]

Still just rather see video footage.. That for sure can never be shown... Why DNA test now. Should have been done immediately. Of course doing it now makes it look suspicious and adds more questions. Video footage and phone records please.

that's all the questions the British police will insist on being answered, just by "observing", of course...

One of THE key phrases in that whole "British police involvement" forth and back is "... investigation according to internationally accepted standards...". THATs what the RTP will be measured against. Not an inch less will be accepted by anyone, sure not by the British government... And it's anyone's guess how prepared the RTP investigation is to even get close to that standard........

And if I read the courts behaviour correctly, then it seems they want to make sure already that they don't get implicated in that case by letting things pass too easily... whether out of conviction/professionalism or opportunism, I don't know, but looks they keep as much a distance at the moment as possible "within the well connected Thai circles"...

Sure I don't have a crystal ball, and that may seem a bit far fetched, but if that case has as many wholes in the investigation as it looks and people claim, then that case with that "evidence" might not even pass the prosecutor and not go to court... We see the string of requests, not just once, for the RTP to provide "more details" already...

Edited October 29, 2014 by TTom911

[minikev]

Still just rather see video footage.. That for sure can never be shown... Why DNA test now. Should have been done immediately. Of course doing it now makes it look suspicious and adds more questions. Video footage and phone records please.

We can't have it all ways. We have all been asking (well apart from all the J's) that he take a very public DNA test to put him at the scene or clear him.

If it is done transparently and it clears him then in my book he is clear of been at the crime scene.

Really?

He would be clear only on not having had sex with the victim

He could still be the murderer !

Everybody be aware of this

I think I'm going to stop giving my opinion as people tend to speed read and react. My post clearly says at the scene. So clearing him would involve all DNA at the scene not just body contact

[BoristheBlade]

The phone records are very important....ALL the phone records...including the victims phones ......

Where is the missing 2 mins of cctv footage

I find it very strange that the AC bar does not seems to have a CCTV system either inside or outside of the premises....is this true?

Or was it simply malfunctioning on the fateful night?

[TTom911]

Strange, the same people who earlier stated that it would clear everything up and prove his innocence, are now not satisfied

The RTP have already said that the DNA of the Burmese matches the DNA on Hannah right?? That is why they are so confident!

If this is the case then Nomsods DNA cant possibly match! Also you can be involved in a murder without actually being involved in a rape.

I think his phone records to make sure he wasn't in Ko Tao and maybe some CCTV from the airport very early that morning would be much more conclusive. Then if he is telling the truth he must be innocent. If they prove otherwise what is he hiding?

Just the RTP claiming "we got it, it's a match" means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, unless they can PROVE that that result came about by having followed internationally accepted procedures, from start to finish... I guess they thought their word would be "just good enough"... doesn't look like to be that easy any more...

If that proof is not there, all that "we have a DNA match" huhah goes out through the chimney...

Till today, until that proof is there, all that "we have a DNA match with the subjects" is nothing else but "high level hearsay", just decorated with some stamps... The world is watching very closely now for that proof of professional investigation, according to internationally accepted standards, to come in... sure the British police / government, "just observing", do have a very close eye on that... and they will speak out, if things continue to be "of major concern"...

Everyone is just waiting for the next REAL facts to surface... and there will be many iterations of that... that's just my guess...

Edited October 29, 2014 by TTom911

[BoristheBlade]

Why is Nomsod taking a DNA test when he has already stated he was not on Koh Tao on the day of the murders?

Was he on the island that day?

IF he was, he will have to explain why he hired a lawyer and participated in a public showing of cctv evidence of his presence in Bangkok on the day of the murder and his lawyer would need to explain for sure.

[Johnsen]

Agreed. Voluntarily taking a DNA test when you have publicly stated and shown evidence that you were not on the island is nonsensical. Its like admitting your public declaration was all lies and now we just want to use a DNA test..

Lots of people on social media both Thai and English starting to demand phone records... Reckon that's the next one his people will be working on if not doing it already.. If the phone company cant be paid off he will have to come up with another excuse as to why it was on the island being used.

Of course all these public declarations dont make him look innocent, in fact quite the opposite.. They already cant or wont produce the cctv footage from his apartment..

Edited October 29, 2014 by Johnsen

[Artisi]

Still just rather see video footage.. That for sure can never be shown... Why DNA test now. Should have been done immediately. Of course doing it now makes it look suspicious and adds more questions. Video footage and phone records please.

We can't have it all ways. We have all been asking (well apart from all the J's) that he take a very public DNA test to put him at the scene or clear him.

If it is done transparently and it clears him then in my book he is clear of been at the crime scene.

Is the DNA the only thing to be proved/disproved?

The police issued a clip of a CCTV video taken near the beach about the time of the murder. It showed the 'running man (with the left arm deformity), and judging by the height/build of the person pictured it's remarkably like Nomsod and nothing like the 2 in custody, as they are much smaller in stature!

But but but - doesn't count, it's the Burmese that did it.

[smokie36]

Looks like we are adging a little closer to the truth....bit by bit.....perhaps soon we may see an accurate picture of what actually happened that night.

[TTom911]

Looks like we are adging a little closer to the truth....bit by bit.....perhaps soon we may see an accurate picture of what actually happened that night.

if that happens, let's hope so, then it took MANY MANY people to make sure of that.....

[boomerangutang]

Strange, the same people who earlier stated that it would clear everything up and prove his innocence, are now not satisfied

I assume you're referring to DNA trail. Even Ms Pornthip claimed the DNA trail was questionable, because from the get-go cops didn't follow professional procedures. BTW, if Nomsod's DNA matches that found in the victim, then his defense will be: "the DNA trail has been botched, so can't be used to convict."

Just the RTP claiming "we got it, it's a match" means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, unless they can PROVE that that result came about by having followed internationally accepted procedures, from start to finish... I guess they thought their word would be "just good enough"... doesn't look like to be that easy any more...

You're right. In many prior criminal investigations, RTP could describe whatever result they wanted, with bits of clues (usually cases go 'unsolved') ....and anyone paying attention would think, "Uhmmm, well, I don't really agree, but I guess that's the way the cookie crumbles. What can we do about it anyway?"

This case is different, mainly owing to the cavalcade of social media. The RTP has been gobsmacked by people not afraid to speak up loudly and say "Hey, we don't want to see scapegoats punished - we want you to do a professional job and nab the real criminals! Don't shield rich VIPs!"

Regardless of the outcome of this case, RTP will be more trepidatious (and hopefully; professional) for future criminal investigations. They got their paws burned in this one.

[boomerangutang]

If I were a betting man, I would bet the following two things will happen shortly:

>>>> The Burmese will be let off

>>>> The investigation won't officially switch to trying to nail the Headman's people.

instead, the investigation will peter out, as did the investigations of mysterious deaths on Ko Phi phi (2 couples, and others) ....and the woman in Krabi who purportedly drowned in 3 inches of sea water, Kirsty Jones murder/rape, and the Dutch woman who was violently raped in Krabi (and cops knew who did it, but STILL let him go unhindered), etc etc etc.

Edited October 29, 2014 by boomerangutang

[StealthEnergiser]

Why is Nomsod taking a DNA test when he has already stated he was not on Koh Tao on the day of the murders?

Was he on the island that day?

IF he was, he will have to explain why he hired a lawyer and participated in a public showing of cctv evidence of his presence in Bangkok on the day of the murder and his lawyer would need to explain for sure.

I started to doubt him when he turns up with a lawyer and new style of haircut .

[jdinasia]

Strange, the same people who earlier stated that it would clear everything up and prove his innocence, are now not satisfied

I assume you're referring to DNA trail. Even Ms Pornthip claimed the DNA trail was questionable, because from the get-go cops didn't follow professional procedures. BTW, if Nomsod's DNA matches that found in the victim, then his defense will be: "the DNA trail has been botched, so can't be used to convict."

Just the RTP claiming "we got it, it's a match" means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, unless they can PROVE that that result came about by having followed internationally accepted procedures, from start to finish... I guess they thought their word would be "just good enough"... doesn't look like to be that easy any more...

You're right. In many prior criminal investigations, RTP could describe whatever result they wanted, with bits of clues (usually cases go 'unsolved') ....and anyone paying attention would think, "Uhmmm, well, I don't really agree, but I guess that's the way the cookie crumbles. What can we do about it anyway?"

This case is different, mainly owing to the cavalcade of social media. The RTP has been gobsmacked by people not afraid to speak up loudly and say "Hey, we don't want to see scapegoats punished - we want you to do a professional job and nab the real criminals! Don't shield rich VIPs!"

Regardless of the outcome of this case, RTP will be more trepidatious (and hopefully; professional) for future criminal investigations. They got their paws burned in this one.

You'd lose.

I clearly stated what I was referring to

[scorecard]

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Strange, the same people who earlier stated that it would clear everything up and prove his innocence, are now not satisfied

The RTP have already said that the DNA of the Burmese matches the DNA on Hannah right?? That is why they are so confident!

If this is the case then Nomsods DNA cant possibly match! Also you can be involved in a murder without actually being involved in a rape.

I think his phone records to make sure he wasn't in Ko Tao and maybe some CCTV from the airport very early that morning would be much more conclusive. Then if he is telling the truth he must be innocent. If they prove otherwise what is he hiding?

"The RTP have already said that the DNA of the Burmese matches the DNA on Hannah right??"

So you believe all the trp say?

[Johnsen]

I agree Stealth and everything his people have done since then just adds fuel to the fire of his involvement.

[boomerangutang]

You'd lose. I clearly stated what I was referring to

It's ok to be swimming against the tide, but try to at least make yourself clear.

[TTom911]

If I were a betting man, I would bet the following two things will happen shortly:

>>>> The Burmese will be let off

>>>> The investigation won't officially switch to trying to nail the Headman's people.

instead, the investigation will peter out, as did the investigations of mysterious deaths on Ko Phi phi (2 couples, and others) ....and the woman in Krabi who purportedly drowned in 3 inches of sea water, etc etc etc.

I guess, that is exactly the most likely outcome, as unfortunate as it is...

But would depend on 2 things:

- how far is the British government willing to push (meaning, does the British government, in the "days of the internet", fear the risk of a backlash, if they let go too early and keep pushing (how far??)...)?

- was the investigation so dumb that there is solid, hard fact evidence out there, e.g. accessible to "observers"..., so that they can force another course of events?

That, and more, we will all find out in due course...

Edited October 29, 2014 by TTom911

[Neeranam]

There are 100,000 Thais who are above the law. Remember this when you think that any member of this headman's family are going to get their just desserts in this lifetime.

Interesting claim. Please list them for us!

Police,Army,Politicians and Hiso crap.

Sorry,the list is a bit longer now.

Not all Police and army. Hisos, yes. There are an estimated 50,000 in Bangkok alone.

Not so much to do with one's occupation but more the family you are from.

[stephen terry]

I think it very likely that no-one will be arraigned for the murder charge, either the B2 or any other suspect owing to lack of evidence. DNA matching could be challenged by the Defence in two ways; whether the forensic methodology used in BKK is on par with the US/UK standard (e.g. as used in Singapore) to be regarded as reliable evidence, and whether the matching is 'exact', or 'partial'.

If DNA is part of the prosecution's evidence, then the question of a third person's DNA found at the crime scene could also be brought into play by the Defence. B2 now becomes B2 + 1 - does that cast doubt that the B2 alone carried out the crimes as purported in the re-enactment scene? Or are the B2 covering up for another person?

Murder weapon - the hoe and maybe another unidentified blunt instrument. male victim's DNA not on the hoe. Question the re-enactment scene again when the dustpan (now a hoe substitute) was struck on the stand-in's head.

Motive - first it was the two victims having sex, then because of a lack of male victim's DNA on the female victim it was changed to a less obvious act of closeness which gendered arousal from the B2. Okay, now we're back to the murder weapon above as a means of subduing the male victim. Not possible, right? Question the re-enactment again.

Now it's the phone found behind the B2's lodgings. RTP have asked the Brits to confirm it was the male victim's. If that's confirmed the RTP have another piece of evidence to add to the B2 knowingly being on the same beach c.100 meters away,initially, as provided by a friend of B2 who was also there earlier that night. It could place them on the crime scene as well, especially if the DNA match is exact. The Defence could challenge several aspects of the phone location when found, but no-one on here 'knows' how it got there or why it was dumped.

That's it.

1. Convict the B2 of murder beyond reasonable doubt?

2. Convict the B2 of rape beyond reasonable doubt?

3. Convict the B2 of robbery beyond reasonable doubt?

4. Convict the B2 of being illegal immigrants?

Edited October 29, 2014 by stephen terry