British authorities at Koh Tao crime scene

[dieseldave1951]

READ THE SCRIPT they came with high ranking officials way above the plods on the island (need to know basis and the plods on the island did not need to know

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  "British authorities"...

  No, they are observers and possible advisers, but they have no authority in Thailand.

  They will be polite and any doubts they have will be buried for the greater good of international relations. Just like the Thai police... They know their place in the chain of command.

  Yeah they have no authority in Thailand. They had no right to be on that island without the knowledge of the local police knowing about it.

• They had no right to go to the A.C. BAR.

• Just how much of a mug are you guys?

• Get back to watching how the Thai police do things and leave the real cops to do the work.

[culicine]

All this talk about DNA, and I'm no scientist but it seems to me that all there really is, is a report from a lab, a couple of "print outs" if you would, from a computer, labelled as whatever, taken from "X" taken from "Y"..

So what you are REALLY relying on is the integrity of the person collecting the samples and "labelling" the printouts accordingly.

Without independent sample collection, testing and labelling there is NO WAY you could be even close to 100% certain it is what it is, without the integrity of the people involved handling the evidence (i.e. not substituting), DNA evidence is useless without it.

There has been no verification the British have independently collected DNA samples (that I have seen), the bodies were probably cleaned out and embalmed before shipping, the samples would probably have been "corrupted" beyond total integrity just as a matter of course.

The only hope therefore is that samples were sent to Singapore, before the arrests were made, this seems to have gone quiet since the first mention of it.

I suspect that DNA has been used to "fit" people for crimes before and not just in Thailand. Plant some hair, whatever.

The problem is it is so technical that to dispute it in a court of law would be all but impossible, no one would understand what the "experts" on both sides were on about. Quoting there is a 1 in 4,000,000 chance is just another statistic, and can probably be manipulated as such.

It is at the stage where the mere mention of DNA in a court of law produces a conviction (or otherwise). It is just accepted.

Now I am not saying it can't be 99.999% accurate, but that depends on a lot of factors (my understanding), especially the integrity of the samples, what the samples were and methods used.

Just my opinion....

I really wouldn't trust lab tests here. A relative was asked to interfere with lab results (have them become negative, rather for positive), so another family member could secure a job. With a positive drug result, he could not take the position. The relative refused to do this, and had no authority to do so anyway.

The DNA test itself is fine - it's how the samples are handled is the problem. I still think the original samples are held in Singapore. It would be simple enough to reswab the suspects and have another independent test done. I just see the BiB refusing that, but I'm sure the defense could demand it is redone.

[Rykbanlor]

JTJ, I still can't find the article but I have screenshots of the CCTV footage, how can I upload a photo into my post, anyone?

[JohnThailandJohn]

DNA samples of the two brothers were collecting for testing and were later proved to not match with DNA collected from the scene and the victims body.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/new-twist-murder-two-brits-koh-tao/

[JohnThailandJohn]

JTJ, I still can't find the article but I have screenshots of the CCTV footage, how can I upload a photo into my post, anyone?

You have a single screen shot of one frame of a single video? He was interviewed by the press and he indicated there were numerous witnesses and CCTV video showing him in Bangkok at the time the murders were committed. Police confirmed they have video and school records and interviewed him before clearing him after publicly declaring him a prime suspect and somebody they believed were involved in the murder.

So, what does your single screenshot prove? Is it the same picture of the lawyer holding stills from video footage that the CSI Facebook folks had a field day with before going onto the whole nonsense phone conspiracy?

Edited October 27, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[dieseldave1951]

but but but so many Thais think we are!!!!

I would have had a little more faith in the British guys independance if:

1. They had not accepted a helicopter-ride to the island with two highranking Thai policeofficers

2. Had stayed on the island for more than a little over an hour

They are never going to be allowed to get anywhere alone, they are politely going to be chaperoned every step of the way.

Two detectives actually came on Friday already. My guess those 2 guys from NSY did some of the field work already. I also wouldn't be surprised if their are more then 5 detectives. The Europeans are not stupid.

[Terrypom]

It seems it may be possible that authorities may be allowing the Brits more access than just observer status. If this is the case that is great but will not help those hell bent on conspiracy theories because nothing will convince them of any thing short of their being a set-up .... This despite the fact that police early on showed they were not scared or intimidated by the headsman family. Like other early suspects they came out publicly stating the headsman's family were involved but like other earlier suspects, they were ruled out.

Do You claim to be English, or perhaps have English has your first language?

[taony]

"British authorities"...

No, they are observers and possible advisers, but they have no authority in Thailand.

assisting the killing of BRITISH citizens and when passport holders are killed overseas they are duty and morally bound to investigate in cooperation with the Embassy

Can you show me where that is a duty or obligation?

I can show where it is against international law.

Please show.

[Rykbanlor]

JTJ, I still can't find the article but I have screenshots of the CCTV footage, how can I upload a photo into my post, anyone?

You have a single screen shot of one frame of video?

Thats correct.

And that article you posted above just stated that Father and brother gave blood and urine samples, not the son.

That article also implies that the son was not running away, he was returning to uni. But after this the claim was changed to: they were in BKK all the time.

[RigPig]

All this talk about DNA, and I'm no scientist but it seems to me that all there really is, is a report from a lab, a couple of "print outs" if you would, from a computer, labelled as whatever, taken from "X" taken from "Y"..

So what you are REALLY relying on is the integrity of the person collecting the samples and "labelling" the printouts accordingly.

Without independent sample collection, testing and labelling there is NO WAY you could be even close to 100% certain it is what it is, without the integrity of the people involved handling the evidence (i.e. not substituting), DNA evidence is useless without it.

There has been no verification the British have independently collected DNA samples (that I have seen), the bodies were probably cleaned out and embalmed before shipping, the samples would probably have been "corrupted" beyond total integrity just as a matter of course.

The only hope therefore is that samples were sent to Singapore, before the arrests were made, this seems to have gone quiet since the first mention of it.

I suspect that DNA has been used to "fit" people for crimes before and not just in Thailand. Plant some hair, whatever.

The problem is it is so technical that to dispute it in a court of law would be all but impossible, no one would understand what the "experts" on both sides were on about. Quoting there is a 1 in 4,000,000 chance is just another statistic, and can probably be manipulated as such.

It is at the stage where the mere mention of DNA in a court of law produces a conviction (or otherwise). It is just accepted.

Now I am not saying it can't be 99.999% accurate, but that depends on a lot of factors (my understanding), especially the integrity of the samples, what the samples were and methods used.

Just my opinion....

I really wouldn't trust lab tests here. A relative was asked to interfere with lab results (have them become negative, rather for positive), so another family member could secure a job. With a positive drug result, he could not take the position. The relative refused to do this, and had no authority to do so anyway.

The DNA test itself is fine - it's how the samples are handled is the problem. I still think the original samples are held in Singapore. It would be simple enough to reswab the suspects and have another independent test done. I just see the BiB refusing that, but I'm sure the defense could demand it is redone.

I agree, so are the samples in Singapore, or are we now relying on testing done in Thailand? Who and how were the samples obtained?

Comparing the samples (if they are there) from Singapore to independent samples taken from the suspects, would be pretty damning evidence, so why haven't they just said / done that? There would be little speculation afterwards. Anything less would be suspect and that's the worry IMO.

[razer]

NSY has probably combed through ThaiVisa reports and comments to get the big picture. They will have more suspects than the RTP I think.

[Pundi6446]

"British authorities"...

No, they are observers and possible advisers, but they have no authority in Thailand.

They would have all the authority to head this investigation on their own, if the UK made a easy statement to Thailand, that they will put Thailand on the tourist BLACKLIST advisory, unless let them do it, they would have complied swiftly with a yes you can, instead of this Bullshit to follow around like puppy dogs, and only see what Thai police wanted them to.

[JohnThailandJohn]

It seems it may be possible that authorities may be allowing the Brits more access than just observer status. If this is the case that is great but will not help those hell bent on conspiracy theories because nothing will convince them of any thing short of their being a set-up .... This despite the fact that police early on showed they were not scared or intimidated by the headsman family. Like other early suspects they came out publicly stating the headsman's family were involved but like other earlier suspects, they were ruled out.

Do You claim to be English, or perhaps have English has your first language?

I don't claim to be English but I can't answer the second part because I am having a hard time understanding what you are asking.

[Rykbanlor]

JTJ, I still can't find the article but I have screenshots of the CCTV footage, how can I upload a photo into my post, anyone?

You have a single screen shot of one frame of video?

Correct. And now I need to work, but you keep up the thread my man, your tireless efforts are not unrecognized. Given that your next post will unlikely shoot me down for running away because I can't support my claims or whatever, I'll add, yes, I don't have time to back myself up now. Enjoy your little victory, but I can't spend all day on this back and forth

[JohnThailandJohn]

JTJ, I still can't find the article but I have screenshots of the CCTV footage, how can I upload a photo into my post, anyone?

You have a single screen shot of one frame of video?

Thats correct.

And that article you posted above just stated that Father and brother gave blood and urine samples, not the son.

That article also implies that the son was not running away, he was returning to uni. But after this the claim was changed to: they were in BKK all the time.

Yes many things are fluid at the start of the investigations and in this case the police accused numerous people before clearing them just as they cleared the kid in Bangkok who there is absolutely no logical reason to believe was involved in this and the police had no problem accusing him and his family of the crime early on. They also claimed to have evidence against many people that didn't pan out early including blood on pants that turned out not to be blood. Nobody has denied police were shooting their mouths off way too much.

Edited October 27, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[jdinasia]

What you didn't do is counter his argument. All you did was use ad hominem attacks to deflect from the facts presented.

and all you ever do is support, in the most deferential manner, the 'authorities' who continue to bungle and you seem VERY keen to accept it's ok not to give DNA and to want to sweep it all under the 'face saving' carpet

I am not interested in feeding that group of trolls but they work 24 hours a day changing shifts with a clear agenda of trying to stop the truth coming out.

their has been evidence on other sites pointing to some foreigners on koh tao supporting the mafia family and thye have connections in some dive businesses,

It is disgraceful what they doing are but maybe have been threatened or paid i am not sure but their are numerous posters all complaining about this same shiftwork group.

It is probably best to ignore them but they will never stop putting people down and have no respect for the families of these young people .

It would not matter how black something was they would have to disagree and call it white.

You can report someone you think is spreading lies.

I am an hour N of BKK. Have no connection to Koh Tao other than friends there.

Just to get this matter into perspective and for you to understand jdinisia's dismissal of everything other than RTP 'evidence/reports, he not only has freiends on KT, he also has business friends there. Coincidentally, these business friends happen to be Divemasters whom we can assume don't operate as a charity. Draw your own conclusions!

And again you try to build a straw man instead of dealing with ideas. Are your arguments that weak?

[jdinasia]

"British authorities"...

No, they are observers and possible advisers, but they have no authority in Thailand.

assisting the killing of BRITISH citizens and when passport holders are killed overseas they are duty and morally bound to investigate in cooperation with the Embassy

Can you show me where that is a duty or obligation?

I can show where it is against international law.

Please show.

Article 55 of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations.

[joebrown]

REF: ALL POSTINGS BY JDINISIA.

Just to get things into perspective and explain jdinisia's repeated rebuttal of anything that isn't official RTP 'evidence/report', please bear in mind that he has business friends, as well as just 'friends' on KT. Coincidentally, some of these business friends happen to be Divemasters, who are unlikely to be working for a 'charitable' institution. Just thought it worth mentioning, because all TV posters expect openness from other TV members, rather than postings by people who do so under the cloud of 'conflict of interests'. Draw your own conclusions as to jdinisia's motives!

Edited October 27, 2014 by joebrown

[jdinasia]

NSY has probably combed through ThaiVisa reports and comments to get the big picture. They will have more suspects than the RTP I think.

Why would they even look at this site?

[JohnThailandJohn]

REF: ALL POSTINGS BY JDINISIA.

Just to get things into perspective and explain jdinisia's repeated rebuttal of anything that isn't official RTP 'evidence/report', please bear in mind that he has business friends, as well as just 'friends' on KT. Coincidentally, some of these business friends happen to be Divemasters, who are unlikely to be working for a 'charitable' institution. Just thought it worth mentioning, because all TV posters expect openness from other TV members, rather than postings by people who do so under the cloud of 'conflict of interests'. Draw your own conclusions as to jdinisia's motives!

If you can only see how you sound. My conclusion is you have lost touch with reality and have resorted to baseless and ignorant attacks because somebody mentioned they have friends.

[BoristheBlade]

The British may have no authority in Thailand, but when did Thai Village Head men have the authority to obstruct law and order? is that part of the new Junta Constitution?

[StealthEnergiser]

REF: ALL POSTINGS BY JDINISIA.

Just to get things into perspective and explain jdinisia's repeated rebuttal of anything that isn't official RTP 'evidence/report', please bear in mind that he has business friends, as well as just 'friends' on KT. Coincidentally, some of these business friends happen to be Divemasters, who are unlikely to be working for a 'charitable' institution. Just thought it worth mentioning, because all TV posters expect openness from other TV members, rather than postings by people who do so under the cloud of 'conflict of interests'. Draw your own conclusions as to jdinisia's motives!

dont forget his mate JTJ (or it could be CKK) they are diving at the moment but they will be ducking and diving when the truth comes out and certain people have covered for kt mafia

[BoristheBlade]

The British may have no authority in Thailand, but when did Thailand's Village Heads have the authority to obstruct law and order?

Is this part of the Junta's new constitution?

[bannork]

Do you see how you sound..

AVOID KOH TOA AND ALL ITS DIVE VENTURES..

I thought TOA produced paint. Are you saying they're involved in this so called whitewash?

[JohnThailandJohn]

NSY has probably combed through ThaiVisa reports and comments to get the big picture. They will have more suspects than the RTP I think.

Why would they even look at this site?

I am curious to know where the "ThaiVisa reports" are located. All I can find is a bunch of civilians, with no access to the evidence, autopsy, police reports...., making comments and/or debating what has been reported about the case or in many cases theories based on what hasn't been reported.

[MikePhuket1970]

The high rank thai authorities are strangely quiet and under the surface.

Wonder if they scare some ugly details comming up soon and they preparing there escape of that situation

with conjure up excuses.

Meanwhile i will enjoy another sunny day and go to the beach.

Don´t feed the Trolls and Clowns my friends

[JohnThailandJohn]

The British may have no authority in Thailand, but when did Thai Village Head men have the authority to obstruct law and order? is that part of the new Junta Constitution?

How did he obstruct law and order? What I read is he met with police and he and his brother gave DNA samples and were cooperative with police as was the son who turned out to be in Bangkok when the murders occurred.

[JohnThailandJohn]

AVOID KOH TOA AND ALL ITS DIVE VENTURES

You have said this numerous times but where is Koh Toa? Did something happen there too?

[arrowsdawdle]

Have they had access to the suspects yet, taken their own DNA samples?

I would have though that would be number one on their priority list.

Gathering a few facts first will enable them to qualify how the two boys answer questions. Unlike the RTP parading both of the boys publicly to reenact the crime, the Brits will likely prefer to interview them separately and compare responses as is fundamental to investigating, rather than staging a duet reenactment.

[sweatalot]

So why no prosecution?

In any other country, conclusive DNA evidence is all that is required.

Wrong. The DNA results in and of themselves prove sex not rape or murder.

Edit to answer your edit. You need to work on those critical thinking skills and look into DNA evidence limitations particularly regarding legal issues.

Hahahahaha.

You are now totally floundering.

DNA in this case does not prove rape or murder?

Can others in this thread comment on this just to make sure I am right to be laughing my head off now/

DNA evidence cannot prove "murder" . . . it can show with a high probability of accuracy that the suspects DNA was found within or on or near the victim, however that doesn't in and of itself prove "rape" either.

good point. Thank you.

DNA found somewhere does not exclude it being planted. it does not mean the "donator" was there