New requirements for proof of degree. Khurusapha

[puchooay]

I disagree. I don't think the Thai government is trying to improve the education here. I believe they are trying to hold on to the grip they have on the uneducated masses.

I believe that they are trying to thwart the teaching of English. If the masses can understand all forms of English then they may learn something they are not supposed to.

In 16 years I have seen no improvement. I don't expect to see any in they next 16 years.

For the powers that be "mission accomplished".

[Scott]

I don't think the gov't thinks much about anything. Having an degree and an education degree is a good idea, but it's not really feasible given the current situation.

Thinking, planning and strategizing aren't concepts which are common in the education field here.

[aarontendo]

Eh, I honestly don't know how I feel about the changes.

On the one hand, I have friends who, without degrees, do a fine job of teaching their students not only Engish, but expose to Western cultural norms that would be useful in a globalized society. So, at some level I'm not convinced that having a degree should be mandatory. Much less an educational one.

Having said that, Having an educational degree I feel as if there is a lot of value to it, not only in our practice but in how we try to see the entirety of the curruculum and how the strands connect both vertically and horizontally. Also, heck this is gonna be greedy but if the government tries to push everyone to have edu degrees and there's a mass exodus of native speakers I suddenly see my stock go up in value. So, yeah...

Agreed with Scott though, it's sort of a dream for everyone to have edu degrees (or degrees in general) given the job conditions in Thailand. I don't see many people beating on the doors to work for 10 months a year at 30,000 baht.

[brianp0803]

The goal is good - improve the quality of teachers.

But instead of raising the bar for teachers that have been teaching a long time and plan to remain in Thailand, maybe better to raise the bar for all the new teachers not committed to teaching or Thailand.

What is the ratio of teachers with less than 3 years experience to teachers with more than 3 years experience.

Many experienced teacher left this year due to inability to get work permit

[aarontendo]

Yep, honestly this's will probably just cause more experienced folks to leave, and maybe more options for newer (and probably younger) teachers to come in for their four year max stint.

Truth be told TEFLing is a young mans game though so meh...

[brianp0803]

Yep, honestly this's will probably just cause more experienced folks to leave, and maybe more options for newer (and probably younger) teachers to come in for their four year max stint.

Truth be told TEFLing is a young mans game though so meh...

Agreed. When the primary qualification is you were born in a native English country then there is a huge supply of young teachers.

Subject teachers take higher knowledge of the subject being taught and possible to teach when older

[thequietman]

Yes, It's official. One of our teachers got his 3rd waiver today but the school was given the letter in the OP. Sealed letter from home country addressed to TCT. Impossible from the UK and I have been told the same for the USA. Asking something that isn't possible is the last straw. End of my contract, I am out of this nonsense.

[OmegaRacer]

This is my last term too. After 8 years teaching I had enough...I lost my passion and it wouldn't be fair towards the students nor good for my own wellbeing doing something I don't enjoy anymore.

The constant hassle and ever changing requirements are just a part of my decision, but important ones. Thankfully I have other means of supporting my family, so not really in desperation mode.

One more very capable and dedicated teacher in our office will (have to) leave as well, which will be a much greater loss for the school than my own departure.

I hope for the student's sake that things will improve soon, but I have serious doubts about that.

[brianp0803]

The cost in time and effort is very high to meet the requirements.

I decided to go back to school and get my Ed. degree.

TCT seems to thinks the problem with education in Thailand is uncredentialed foreign teachers.

I believe make failing an option and change in perception the copying on homework and tests is bad.

Every student I have talked to says copying on tests is normal and proud about the extensive methods of copying.

Students feel no shame about copying.

Thai people I have met feel normal and acceptable if they heard the director of a large prestigious school has his foreign teachers doing all his homework for his PhD degree in an international program.

but important all foreign teachers get their education degree.

I wonder how many teachers have abandoned teaching in Thailand, how many have decided to get the required degree, and how many are using creative ways to continue teaching after their waivers are finished.

[thequietman]

The cost in time and effort is very high to meet the requirements.

I decided to go back to school and get my Ed. degree.

TCT seems to thinks the problem with education in Thailand is uncredentialed foreign teachers.

I believe make failing an option and change in perception the copying on homework and tests is bad.

Every student I have talked to says copying on tests is normal and proud about the extensive methods of copying.

Students feel no shame about copying.

Thai people I have met feel normal and acceptable if they heard the director of a large prestigious school has his foreign teachers doing all his homework for his PhD degree in an international program.

but important all foreign teachers get their education degree.

I wonder how many teachers have abandoned teaching in Thailand, how many have decided to get the required degree, and how many are using creative ways to continue teaching after their waivers are finished.

I am feeling you Brian BUT............ even if you do your masters Ed., you still need to get the Uni to agree to type a personal letter to Krusapa with the details they require in a sealed envelope. Now.......... if you are doing your degree outside Thailand then that isn't possible. I can only speak for the UK but they will not (not can't) type up an individual letter and send it to Thailand as per the data protection act. They will only post in country. Transcripts are possible but Krusapa won't accept no stinking transcript. The letter they want lists all the things contained in a transcript but......... you guessed it.......they won't accept a transcript.

I can't speak for American teachers but i think they will have issues as regards an individual letter sent to a country of slightly dubious nature.

On top of all that, let's say you are able to do the impossible and get such a letter. The letter is sent to Krusapa and they lose it as they have lost many documents in the past. They will say they didn't receive it and you need to get another. Lets say you send it registered and they lose it. Same thing, mi mee, now get another one.

Enough is enough. It's beyond reasonable now, it's just plain ridiculous. Name me any other country that asks for such things to teach conversation classes?

The monkeys have taken over the zoo and they ain't giving it back. End of contract, I'm gone. No doubt.

[brianp0803]

You know what monkeys throw when angry.

A letter from overseas could easily be faked. Just print some stationary and write the letter and have someone overseas send it. Great verification.

All the fake degrees are causing TCT to try other methods to verify qualifications.

Salaries and ability for Thai people to pay is a problem.

People with no degree and only one month of training to get Celta or TEFL certificate demand salaries similar to a university educated teacher teaching upper level physics.

Is this good?

Again, salaries are limited to parents ability to pay.

TEFL teachers can teach at language schools and don't fall under TCT rules.

[Slip]

They don't demand those salaries, they are offered those salaries. If a teacher leaves his well-paid job for whatever reason, he is likely to find himself back at the bottom of the salary scale, regardless of his qualifications or experience. However, a good, if unqualified, teacher of English of early years could arguably be just as valuable to students as your upper level degree holding science teacher. How do you decide? Without the former, perhaps the latter would sit twiddling his thumbs for lack of students?

Salaries do not necessarily have to be (and actually aren't) directly linked to parents ability to pay by the way. I often see that Thailand spends a relatively large amount on education, and. as has been pointed out, even private schools receive an allowance for foreign teachers of English. Where is all that money going?

Ultimately, even a non-degreed, non-native speaking career brick layer is likely to struggle on a salary under 30k baht a month. Just how little would you like to see these people paid?

[happydude303]

I disagree. I don't think the Thai government is trying to improve the education here. I believe they are trying to hold on to the grip they have on the uneducated masses.

I believe that they are trying to thwart the teaching of English. If the masses can understand all forms of English then they may learn something they are not supposed to.

In 16 years I have seen no improvement. I don't expect to see any in they next 16 years.

For the powers that be "mission accomplished".

Finally some one is speaking the truth . I've only been in and out of this country for the last few years and This is obviously what is happing. Keep the poor, very poor and unable to change their future.

[Loaded]

The TCT is obsessed with 'quality'. Their mandate from the government is to improve the quality of teachers in Thailand. However, few members of the TCT know how to improve quality as they have little experience of teaching and the real world. This has led these academics to equate 'quality' with academic qualifications. The point they completely miss is that teachers need practical skills and not euro-centric ideas and philosophies that cannot be applied to real-world situations in Thailand.

[Cletus]

My University does not send this kind of letter, simply because everything is available online for me to print.

The online certificates are signed digitally (there is a two-dimensional digital stamp code viewed as a grey band which contains the whole document) by the university, which guarantees their integrity and authenticity.

Do you think this will fit their needs?

[Fatty123]

No problem with this as long as schools foot the bill and the government allow an extra 3 weeks or so for arrival of the letter. Mind you, I'm not sure I'd trust the school to contact a UK uni and ask for what's needed. Probably best to DIY and try and get a refund for the letter as most unis charge for this service. And it can take a month if unlucky.

[casualbiker]

No problem with this as long as schools foot the bill and the government allow an extra 3 weeks or so for arrival of the letter. Mind you, I'm not sure I'd trust the school to contact a UK uni and ask for what's needed. Probably best to DIY and try and get a refund for the letter as most unis charge for this service. And it can take a month if unlucky.

I'm not even sure a UK university COULD send this to a third party due to the data protection act!

PS : my wife thinks that the transcript and standard covering letter would suffice. It seems when you get a degree in Thailand, you get 2 certificates (one English, one Thai) and a covering letter in Thai confirming the transcript authentication.

[Fatty123]

No problem with this as long as schools foot the bill and the government allow an extra 3 weeks or so for arrival of the letter. Mind you, I'm not sure I'd trust the school to contact a UK uni and ask for what's needed. Probably best to DIY and try and get a refund for the letter as most unis charge for this service. And it can take a month if unlucky.

I'm not even sure a UK university COULD send this to a third party due to the data protection act!

PS : my wife thinks that the transcript and standard covering letter would suffice. It seems when you get a degree in Thailand, you get 2 certificates (one English, one Thai) and a covering letter in Thai confirming the transcript authentication.

Perhaps a better option would be to allow teachers to get their degrees verified by their Embassies/consulates? It would save waiting a month for a letter to arrive. If that letter got lost in the system, it may even cause an overstay or 'illegal' visa run.

If Thailand is serious about having western teachers, they've got to make things easier for the legit ones. Although, Krusapha seem a pretty xenophobic lot nowadays. It's fine asking for degrees in Education or a post grad in the Education field (really...I agree with it), but not fine to make them jump through hoops and find themselves in the doo-doo due to ridiculous red tape.

Simple answer. Verify degree at Embassy. Refund from employer for verification. Work permits guaranteed within 21 days (at no cost to the employee) and one year renewable (if possible) contracts (not 9 or 10 months). Thailand needs to get on board and stop schools from stalling with obtaining work permits for foreign teachers. This leaves foreign teachers 'illegal' and in danger.

They can't have their cake and eat it. If they do kick out those without education degrees(or masters in Ed/post grads in Ed/foreign licence) by closing all loopholes, then they will be left with far fewer teachers. These teachers will be in demand and will not work for 30k per month when they can earn twice that in Vietnam. Or three times that in Malaysia. Or four or five times that in the middle east. Not a chance. I hear residency is quite easy for many qualified teachers away from their own country. Hong Kong, for example. Thailand should offer permanent residency for qualified foreign teachers and permanent licensure. That's if, they are actually serious about education.

It will take pay increases, hassle free visa/permits (once confirmed legit) and teaching the qualified foreign teachers with respect. They will not be here to tell Thailand what to do, but they come from a world of far superior educational ways. Thailand shlould ask them for advice and use it where possible. Although, my suspicion is that Thailand's elite does not want the majority of Thais to be educated. Apart from their own kids getting a western education at the top tier international schools, of course.

[benj005]

Great, just what Thailand needs, more endless, bureacratic, pointless paperwork, plus, of course, additional costs for teachers to bear before they can teach. Education in Thailand is poor, English skills in Thailand are poor. Rather than making it more difficult to recruit, make it easier. I am sure most people here have some familiarity with the amont and varieity of docments, procedures, and processes needed to teach? It is discouraging.

As for the specific question of false qualifications, how about if you can teach, then you can teach. I have seen Philipine (no offense) teachers with certificates and degrees in English, who can just about construct a simple sentence. I have met old timers, even dead beat Australians, who have knowledge and experience, but are not allowed to teach because they have no "paper". What about grant to the schools the right to recruit and process work visas directly? Great, except for all those immig officials in all those embassies.

Had just some weeks ago a discussion with the Bss of english teachers in a famous school of my kids;

I also had some concerns about some Philipine english teachers in that school;

He told me relax:

They are tested, they are native english speakers when born,

and sometimes better in grammatic than an so called " English teacher from UK !!

lol, and you believe that nonsense? I'm sorry to tell you but someone who speaks English as a second language is not going to speak better than a native speaker.

Nope, not going to happen unless the native speaker is a real idiot.

[Rhys]

I sent in the paper work as they request...sent in all my awards, certificates, and a picture of alfla...

[Paul Kernell]

I met an English girl around thirty years old here on holiday. She is a teacher in England, her grammar was appalling, in it, like. She taught physics and she couldn't work out why we have condoms on our beer bottles! After explaining to her why she answered "It will warm it up quicker because it"s insulation in it" Yea right! teaching levels! She also turned down many invites for a lift home and took it on herself to walk the 2kms alone at 2am in the morning!!!! What is she going too teach?

[chenposeb]

In the UK, about 10 years ago, I was training people who had just left University with a BSc in Sports Science how to try to use the little knowledge they had gained into an actual skill they could use to help people improve their health/sports. Although I had no formal University degree, I had almost a lifetime of experience and a huge amount of vocational qualifications. I also had to study the syllabus and know it inside out before I felt comfortable teaching these guys.

Although my 'level' is not that of a Bachelors Degree, these 'more educated students' really didn't understand what they had spent 4 years doing. They constantly got stuff wrong and showed knowledge but sometimes complete misunderstanding of how that knowledge related to what they were doing.

One of my A-levels is in English Lit., I had to study Latin at school, and grammar was drilled into us as kids. I have been teaching for about 15 years tutoring and group work, not in English though. On a recent TEFL course I had to correct every single other person on the course (some of who have been given teaching English jobs) for grammar and spelling. I realise I still have a lot to learn, I am just using it as an example for the 'more educated' people I meet.

This thread was just bumped up again, so sorry to go over old ground, I just find that some of the comments in the thread about how 'educated' people have a Bachelors and those of us without them shouldn't be griping about it a little annoying.

[puffy]

What a bunch of cry-baby biggoted baggers.

You uphold the virtues of uneducated farang teachers and defame the virtues of educated Filipino teachers. Certainly, anyone who can speak some English--even a bar-girl--can teach a few words of English to someone who speaks no English. Of course, there must be some uneducated NES teachers who do a good job, but to what depth can they teach the language and how many utter failures did the system go through to gain that few?

The Thais are trying to develop better educational systems for their children. Requiring educational standards for teachers is a step in the right direction.

Look at the written English displayed by TV posters--the vast majority of whom are NES and several even claim to be teachers. Far too many cannot put together a simple post without grammar or spelling errors. Is that the type of English competency you want for teachers of your child, or are you just trying to justify work in Thailand for an NES farang?

Yes this maybe very laudable, and the idea is to raise standards which I fully agree with, however the pay must be commensurate with the qualifications.

The reality is, It is highly unlikely a fully qualified NES teacher will work for 30-40k. Only the top private schools and the International school's pay the salary that a fully qualified teacher will accept. These requirements just perpetuate an elitist education system, where only the wealthy will have any type of NES teacher.

From your post it is clear you are in favor of an elitist education where poorer people will have no access to any kind of English instruction from an NES person, because you can be guaranteed the Government schools will not be paying the 90k plus that is required to get a fully qualified NES teacher.

[Mencken]

I will be so happy when the government finally gets a clue and demands without exception all teachers to have a BA/S degree period, end of story.

What is keeping the non degreed teaching flotsam afloat is indifference, corruption, disconcern and laziness.

At 18/42.5k Thailand could change its education system overnight.

It's not just the nondegreed riffraff, it's the Africans, Filipinos, etc... with 'degrees', virtually any drifter that washes ashore that will work for 22+/32-35k can get hired. TOEIC 600 no plomplem.

I think the government should create a database of all teachers cleared to work in Thailand. Public schools hire out at rates according to provincial pay scale. Quality assurance for students (F the school admin) and decent pay for degreed teachers.

Schools don't care. They just want a cheap zombie. If students don't complain, it's all good and more money for Directors slush fund or Thai teacher conference in Phuket.

Thai administration will not do the right thing. This is what keeps all the contractors alive. Degreeless teachers are part of the corruption as are feckless teachers from 3rd world countries.

[nkg]

I will be so happy when the government finally gets a clue and demands without exception all teachers to have a BA/S degree period, end of story.

What is keeping the non degreed teaching flotsam afloat is indifference, corruption, disconcern and laziness.

At 18/42.5k Thailand could change its education system overnight.

It's not just the nondegreed riffraff, it's the Africans, Filipinos, etc... with 'degrees', virtually any drifter that washes ashore that will work for 22+/32-35k can get hired. TOEIC 600 no plomplem.

I think the government should create a database of all teachers cleared to work in Thailand. Public schools hire out at rates according to provincial pay scale. Quality assurance for students (F the school admin) and decent pay for degreed teachers.

Schools don't care. They just want a cheap zombie. If students don't complain, it's all good and more money for Directors slush fund or Thai teacher conference in Phuket.

Thai administration will not do the right thing. This is what keeps all the contractors alive. Degreeless teachers are part of the corruption as are feckless teachers from 3rd world countries.

You're breaking the rules, sunshine. Mencken and rocketsurgeon are clearly the same person. I would invite any moderators to check their respective IP addresses to confirm this,

24) Multiple accounts by the same person are not allowed. If you have access issues contact support at http://www.thaivisa.com/contact

[smotherb]

What a bunch of cry-baby biggoted baggers.

You uphold the virtues of uneducated farang teachers and defame the virtues of educated Filipino teachers. Certainly, anyone who can speak some English--even a bar-girl--can teach a few words of English to someone who speaks no English. Of course, there must be some uneducated NES teachers who do a good job, but to what depth can they teach the language and how many utter failures did the system go through to gain that few?

The Thais are trying to develop better educational systems for their children. Requiring educational standards for teachers is a step in the right direction.

Look at the written English displayed by TV posters--the vast majority of whom are NES and several even claim to be teachers. Far too many cannot put together a simple post without grammar or spelling errors. Is that the type of English competency you want for teachers of your child, or are you just trying to justify work in Thailand for an NES farang?

Yes this maybe very laudable, and the idea is to raise standards which I fully agree with, however the pay must be commensurate with the qualifications.

The reality is, It is highly unlikely a fully qualified NES teacher will work for 30-40k. Only the top private schools and the International school's pay the salary that a fully qualified teacher will accept. These requirements just perpetuate an elitist education system, where only the wealthy will have any type of NES teacher.

From your post it is clear you are in favor of an elitist education where poorer people will have no access to any kind of English instruction from an NES person, because you can be guaranteed the Government schools will not be paying the 90k plus that is required to get a fully qualified NES teacher.

How do you see having Filipinos, with proper teaching credentials and who would gladly work for the B30-40k, as being elitist? The Thais do not need NES qualified teachers; the Thai English is very poor. Once the Thais can speak English to the level of the Filipinos, the Thais may be able to fully appreciate qualified NES teachers.

[Chaz1819]

Have had my Thai teaching license for a few years and thought the headaches were all behind me. Then came today.

Took my renewed work permit, usual documents (including teaching license) into Jomtien Immigration to renew my visa .... I got the Thai kiss of death .... "Cannot, there is a new rule"

Have to have your degree authenticated at your embassy. Not sure about other embassy's, but US won't authenticate documents.

Time for plan B

[casualbiker]

Have had my Thai teaching license for a few years and thought the headaches were all behind me. Then came today.

Took my renewed work permit, usual documents (including teaching license) into Jomtien Immigration to renew my visa .... I got the Thai kiss of death .... "Cannot, there is a new rule"

Have to have your degree authenticated at your embassy. Not sure about other embassy's, but US won't authenticate documents.

Time for plan B

Khurusapha know this. You can get a letter in lieu of the embassy authentication. But you may need to get a new transcript sent.. Then take the sealed envelope to Khurusapha.

[aidenai]

Have had my Thai teaching license for a few years and thought the headaches were all behind me. Then came today.

Took my renewed work permit, usual documents (including teaching license) into Jomtien Immigration to renew my visa .... I got the Thai kiss of death .... "Cannot, there is a new rule"

Have to have your degree authenticated at your embassy. Not sure about other embassy's, but US won't authenticate documents.

Time for plan B

When Immigration asks for it, it's an Immigration (local) requirement. Last week, 3 of my colleagues applied for new extensions of stay without any new requirements.

[Rhys]

Being English speaking and born doesn't ensure, you are honest, you master your mother tongue language and you deserve a job of teaching. The chance are high you can't get a teaching job at your own country.

Time to clean Thailand from cheaters, they are not in one side, I would think there are more in farang side. False diplomas, false marriages, false bank accounts for visas, false education registration for Ed visa purposes etc....

It goes without mentioning big number of criminals running from justice in their countries....

Thus start with the Thai Teaching Council.....