UN political chief criticizes Israel for new settlement plans

[Lissos]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.527209

Most Haaretz articles linked to, seem to be only readable by subscribers and registered users (same?)

[Jay Sata]

Getting back to the issue of the settlements what and where are they leading to .

If Israel genuinely wants a negotiated peace they will have to be handed back or demolished.

Like Gaza?

That is the Likud way of doing things. Collective punishment where the military demolish a civilian house or apartment block. The Nazis did the same to villages in France in WW2 to avenge the killing of some of their soldiers. I rather thought we had moved on from that sort of strategy.

[Jingthing]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.527209

Most Haaretz articles linked to, seem to be only readable by subscribers and registered users (same?)

So what? Register then. You can view a set number of articles monthly for free. Haaretz is a good example of the diversity of political debate in Israel. Too bad we don't see the same on the Palestinian side.

[Jay Sata]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.527209

Most Haaretz articles linked to, seem to be only readable by subscribers and registered users (same?)

Yes they do and sorry about posting that link.

Better you read this from B'Tselem, the wonderful Israeli human rights group.

In its report Foul Play: Neglect of Wastewater Treatment in the West Bank, Israeli human rights group B'Tselem warns about the danger inherent in neglecting wastewater treatment in the West Bank. The report criticizes both Israel and the Palestinian Authority for their failures, which have harmed the health and future water supply of all residents of Israel and the West Bank.

Some 2.8 million people currently live in the West Bank and Jerusalem. The wastewater of two million of them - from settlements, the city of Jerusalem, and Palestinian towns and villages - is not treated. The prolonged neglect has created various hazards and environmental nuisances throughout the West Bank and is liable to pollute the Mountain Aquifer, the main water source of Israelis and Palestinians.

Since the beginning of the settlement enterprise, Israel has not constructed advanced regional wastewater treatment plants in the West Bank settlements as it has done inside Israel. Only 81 of the 121 settlements are connected to wastewater treatment facilities, and even these are outdated, frequently malfunction and shut down, and are not able to treat the necessary amount of sewage. Of the 17.5 million cubic meters of wastewater created annually by the settlements, 5.5 mcm flow as raw sewage into West Bank streams and riverbeds. The Israeli Ministry of Environmental Protection has failed to take serious enforcement actions against settlements.

http://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20090628

Edited November 14, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Seastallion]

So if the settlements never happened there would be no conflict? That's absurd.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Yes, it is absurd. The blockade of Gaza is yet another reason for conflict. Not to mention East Jerusalem evictions.

However, addressing your point, if the settlements never occurred, you can bet your bottom dollar there would have been less suicide attacks.

[Jingthing]

So if the settlements never happened there would be no conflict? That's absurd.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Yes, it is absurd. The blockade of Gaza is yet another reason for conflict. Not to mention East Jerusalem evictions.

However, addressing your point, if the settlements never occurred, you can bet your bottom dollar there would have been less suicide attacks.

Oh, and the fact that the majority of Palestinians don't want Israel to exist at all, in any borders, isn't a factor here? Above is the same old it's only Israel's fault demonization line and that is obviously not true.

[Seastallion]

Getting back to the issue of the settlements what and where are they leading to .

If Israel genuinely wants a negotiated peace they will have to be handed back or demolished.

Like Gaza?

Gaza is not "handed back" while it's blockaded, but I agree with you that Israel demolished it.

[Jingthing]

Getting back to the issue of the settlements what and where are they leading to .

If Israel genuinely wants a negotiated peace they will have to be handed back or demolished.

Like Gaza?

Gaza is not "handed back" while it's blockaded, but I agree with you that Israel demolished it.

No, you don't agree with me. You know perfectly well what I meant ... that Israel handing back Gaza did not bring about any improvements in the peace process. Was it Israel that elected the terrorist government of Hamas, is that it?

[Seastallion]

Getting back to the issue of the settlements what and where are they leading to .

If Israel genuinely wants a negotiated peace they will have to be handed back or demolished.

Like Gaza?

Gaza is not "handed back" while it's blockaded, but I agree with you that Israel demolished it.

No, you don't agree with me. You know perfectly well what I meant ... that Israel handing back Gaza did not bring about any improvements in the peace process. Was it Israel that elected the terrorist government of Hamas, is that it?

You suggested that Gaza had been either handed back or demolished. We both know that Gaza has not been handed back. Soldiers on the ground retreated, but the airspace and borders are rigorously controlled by Israel. The UN deems it "occupied".

We also both know of the widespread demolition that occurred in the last two Israeli offensives.

So what's your problem? Israel didn't hand back, but they did demolish Gaza. As you suggested. And I agree with you.

[Jingthing]

You suggested that Gaza had been either handed back or demolished. We both know that Gaza has not been handed back. Soldiers on the ground retreated, but the airspace and borders are rigorously controlled by Israel. The UN deems it "occupied".

We also both know of the widespread demolition that occurred in the last two Israeli offensives.

So what's your problem? Israel didn't hand back, but they did demolish Gaza. As you suggested. And I agree with you.

This kind of obnoxious stupid game I can't tolerate. Insisting that I believe something I obviously don't believe. Welcome to my IGNORE list.

[Ulysses G.]

You really need to do some reading before offering such ignorant opinions as "facts". Gaza is an excellent example of what comes from handing over territory to the Palestinians without a comprehensive peace agreement.

Have you even bothered to read the pertinent advice on your own avatar?

Apologists for Hamas attribute the blood lust to the Israeli occupation and blockade. Occupation? Does no one remember anything? It was less than 10 years ago that worldwide television showed the Israeli army pulling die-hard settlers off synagogue roofs in Gaza as Israel uprooted its settlements, expelled its citizens, withdrew its military and turned every inch of Gaza over to the Palestinians. There was not a soldier, not a settler, not a single Israeli left in Gaza.

And there was no blockade.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-moral-clarity-in-gaza/2014/07/17/0adabe0c-0de4-11e4-8c9a-923ecc0c7d23_story.html

Edited November 15, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Scott]

A number of off-topic, troll, bickering posts and replies have been removed.

Please stay on-topic.

There is one entire thread running on Palestine (Sweden's recognition) where posters insist on discussing Israel and there is this one where the topic is about the criticism of Israel by the UN regarding settlements.

Stay on topic, please.

[Jay Sata]

For those who constantly support the occupation it is worth looking at the Geneva Convention.

It is widely accepted that under international law, the Jewish settlements in the territories occupied by Israel in 1967 are illegal.

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war states: "The occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own population into the territories it occupies."

Within the international community the overwhelming view is that Article 49 is applicable to the occupation of the West Bank including East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights.

Almost the entire international community, including allies of Israel, have referred to the situation in these territories as occupation.

The position that the 4th Geneva Convention does apply to the West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights is supported by the International Committee of the Red Cross, UN bodies, and the International Court of Justice.

Israel is a party to the Geneva Conventions, and bound by its obligations.

But its government argues that the international conventions relating to occupied land do not apply to the Palestinian territories because they were not under the legitimate sovereignty of any state in the first place.

Israel has over the years often chosen to use the term administered territories to refer to Gaza and the West Bank. It has annexed the Golan and East Jerusalem.

Israel therefore denies the formal, de jure, applicability of the 4th Geneva Convention in the occupied territories.

Israel does formally accept the applicability of the Hague Regulations on occupation, and says it is acting under authority granted to an occupying power in international law (including in provisions of the 4th Geneva Convention). The 4th Geneva Convention and the Hague Regulations contain detailed rules on the administration of occupied territory.

The Israeli Supreme Court (sitting as High Court of Justice in Beit Sourik Village Council v The Government of Israel 2004) has noted: "The general point of departure of all parties - which is also our point of departure - is that Israel holds the area in belligerent occupation (occupatio bellica)."

Source http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/middle_east/2001/israel_and_the_palestinians/key_documents/1682640.stm

[MJP]

Couple of posts going nowhere removed. No need to bait each other. If you can't discuss this in a civil manner please just don't post.

[Jay Sata]

You really need to do some reading before offering such ignorant opinions as "facts". Gaza is an excellent example of what comes from handing over territory to the Palestinians without a comprehensive peace agreement.

Have you even bothered to read the pertinent advice on your own avatar?

Apologists for Hamas attribute the blood lust to the Israeli occupation and blockade. Occupation? Does no one remember anything? It was less than 10 years ago that worldwide television showed the Israeli army pulling die-hard settlers off synagogue roofs in Gaza as Israel uprooted its settlements, expelled its citizens, withdrew its military and turned every inch of Gaza over to the Palestinians. There was not a soldier, not a settler, not a single Israeli left in Gaza.

And there was no blockade.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-moral-clarity-in-gaza/2014/07/17/0adabe0c-0de4-11e4-8c9a-923ecc0c7d23_story.html

The quote there comes from right wing syndicated columnist and Fox News contributor Charles Krauthammer .What next? Ann Coulter and her Fox tv rants?

FOX news says it all.

Right wing tv from the USA.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Ulysses G.]

The quote there comes from right wing syndicated columnist and Fox News contributor Charles Krauthammer .

Yes and that makes the quote no less accurate. Charles Krauthammer is one of the most widely read political writers in the country and he appears on a variety of outlets. He has written for the Washington Post for decades. It is imbecilic to think that a political columnist appearing on Fox News - the most successful cable news network by far - is a bad thing and Special Report with Bret Baier offers a variety of different opinions on every issue.

Charles Krauthammer (/ˈkraʊt.hæmər/; born March 13, 1950) is an American Pulitzer Prize-winning syndicated columnist, author, political commentator, and physician. His weekly column is syndicated to more than 400 newspapers worldwide.[1] He is a contributing editor to the Weekly Standard and a nightly panelist on Fox News' Special Report with Bret Baier. He was a weekly panelist on the PBS news program Inside Washington from 1990 until it ceased production in December 2013.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Krauthammer

Edited November 16, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Jay Sata]

I take it you have not read this.

Almost the entire international community, including allies of Israel, have referred to the situation in these territories as occupation.

The position that the 4th Geneva Convention does apply to the West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights is supported by the International Committee of the Red Cross, UN bodies, and the International Court of Justice.

Israel is a party to the Geneva Conventions, and bound by its obligations.

[Ulysses G.]

There are lot of different opinions out there, but none of them changes the fact that Gaza was turned over to the Palestinians WITH NO BLOCKADE and Hamas terrorism was the cause of having to enforce one.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[jdinasia]

He knows it already.

No, he just labels opinions other than his own as demonizing Israel.

I am comfortable saying Israel has a right to exist inside the 67 borders.

I am also comfortable with saying Sweden is right to recognize the State of Palestine, and that the settlements are illegal.

[Ulysses G.]

I am comfortable saying Israel has a right to exist inside the 67 borders.

I don't think any of it is up to you - thankfully.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[JDGRUEN]

You really need to do some reading before offering such ignorant opinions as "facts". Gaza is an excellent example of what comes from handing over territory to the Palestinians without a comprehensive peace agreement.

Have you even bothered to read the pertinent advice on your own avatar?

Apologists for Hamas attribute the blood lust to the Israeli occupation and blockade. Occupation? Does no one remember anything? It was less than 10 years ago that worldwide television showed the Israeli army pulling die-hard settlers off synagogue roofs in Gaza as Israel uprooted its settlements, expelled its citizens, withdrew its military and turned every inch of Gaza over to the Palestinians. There was not a soldier, not a settler, not a single Israeli left in Gaza.

And there was no blockade.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-moral-clarity-in-gaza/2014/07/17/0adabe0c-0de4-11e4-8c9a-923ecc0c7d23_story.html

The quote there comes from right wing syndicated columnist and Fox News contributor Charles Krauthammer .What next? Ann Coulter and her Fox tv rants?

FOX news says it all.

Right wing tv from the USA.

Krauthammer develops his knowledge and opinion from many many years of personal research - his commentary is completely independent of FoxNews... Krauthammer is highly respected by many in the profession - people of all political persuasions ... How about challenging his position and analysis instead of attacking FoxNews? Your post is vacant of any originality or substance ... just a silly distraction as you have nothing of substance to say.

[up-country_sinclair]

So if the settlements never happened there would be no conflict?

That's clearly not what he posted.

[Ulysses G.]

Actually, it is not far from the statement that Jingthing was responding to. It looks like you need to study up on what a Straw Man is.

They are that the settlements in the West Bank, illegal by a UN motion are a key to the troubles that constantly lead to unrest.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Jay Sata]

We are talking here about the UN criticising Israel over the latest batch of settlements.

These are in breach of the Geneva convention.

I don't think we have quite reached the stage yet where contributors to the right wing Fox cable channel are asked by the international community to arbitrate in the Middle East.

[Ulysses G.]

They are not in breach of the Geneva convention until someone proves it in court. There are plenty of legal experts who say otherwise.

Contributors to the Fox News channel have already been involved in Middle Eastern policy. You are proving your ignorance on the subject.

[Seastallion]

You really need to do some reading before offering such ignorant opinions as "facts". Gaza is an excellent example of what comes from handing over territory to the Palestinians without a comprehensive peace agreement.

Have you even bothered to read the pertinent advice on your own avatar?

Apologists for Hamas attribute the blood lust to the Israeli occupation and blockade. Occupation? Does no one remember anything? It was less than 10 years ago that worldwide television showed the Israeli army pulling die-hard settlers off synagogue roofs in Gaza as Israel uprooted its settlements, expelled its citizens, withdrew its military and turned every inch of Gaza over to the Palestinians. There was not a soldier, not a settler, not a single Israeli left in Gaza.

And there was no blockade.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-moral-clarity-in-gaza/2014/07/17/0adabe0c-0de4-11e4-8c9a-923ecc0c7d23_story.html

The quote there comes from right wing syndicated columnist and Fox News contributor Charles Krauthammer .What next? Ann Coulter and her Fox tv rants?

FOX news says it all.

Right wing tv from the USA.

Krauthammer develops his knowledge and opinion from many many years of personal research - his commentary is completely independent of FoxNews... Krauthammer is highly respected by many in the profession - people of all political persuasions ... How about challenging his position and analysis instead of attacking FoxNews? Your post is vacant of any originality or substance ... just a silly distraction as you have nothing of substance to say.

I would like to see evidence that he is highly respected by anyone other than redneck Fox viewers (not saying all Fox viewers are redneck, just referring to that portion of the audience). I find it extremely doubtful.

Reading the piece offered above, he makes the outrageous claim that Hamas only fire rockets at Israel to draw retaliatory fire, so that they have Palestinian bodies to show the world.

Such a preposterous claim needs more than just opinion to back it up.

He makes false and emotive statements such as "Israel...has been warred upon for 66 years..." Whereas the fact is Israel is has been the instigator and the aggressor.

To break down all his fallacy, lies, distortions and sheer blatant unobjective bias would take this post way off topic, but I did need to respond to your groundless claim that the source in question is reputable.

[Ulysses G.]

I would like to see evidence that he is highly respected by anyone other than redneck Fox viewers (not saying all Fox viewers are redneck, just referring to that portion of the audience). I find it extremely doubtful.

Her won the Pulitzer Prize for distinguished commentary and was named by The Financial Times as the most influential commentator in America. He has also won numerous other awards and wrote the best selling non-fiction collection in history. You really know how to stick your foot in your mouth.

[jdinasia]

I am comfortable saying Israel has a right to exist inside the 67 borders.

I don't think any of it is up to you - thankfully.

No it isn't, nor up to you. It is getting more likely that it won't be up to Israel either if they continue along their current path.

[up-country_sinclair]

Actually, it is not far from the statement that Jingthing was responding to. It looks like you need to study up on what a Straw Man is.

They are that the settlements in the West Bank, illegal by a UN motion are a key to the troubles that constantly lead to unrest.

Actually, it is you (or should I type YOU) who needs to either improve your reading skills or study up on what a straw man is.

This is the complete post that Jingthing responded to:

UG

You try to drag up all sorts of ancient history but you don't seem able to challenge the UN political chief for the simple reason he is stating facts.

They are that the settlements in the West Bank, illegal by a UN motion are a key to the troubles that constantly lead to unrest.

Are you in some way missing your vocation in Thailand and perhaps better qualified to address the UN?

The key phrase of Jay Sata's post is "a key". Hold on, let me make that, "A KEY". Jay Sata didn't write "key" or "the key". He wrote, "a key".

But Jingthing responded with:

So if the settlements never happened there would be no conflict? That's absurd.

That, most certainly is a straw man argument. Because Jay Sata didn't even intimate (much less write) that there would be no conflict if it were not for the settlements.

Thus, my post pointing out that this post was a straw man argument.

Class dismissed.

[up-country_sinclair]

Like the majority of the world's nations, France has had enough of Israel's immoral and illegal occupation.

Paris — France called on Israel to "immediately" reverse a decision to approve the building of 200 new homes in settlements in East Jerusalem, a move it said directly threatened a two-state peace solution.

"The decision by the Israeli authorities approving the construction of 200 new homes in the Ramot settlement again directly threatens a two-state solution," French Foreign ministry spokesman Romain Nadal said.

"We call Israel to immediately go back on this decision at a time when everything should be done to stop the escalation (in violence) and relaunch the peace process," Nadal said in an unusually strong statement.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Latest-News-Wires/2014/1113/France-New-Israeli-settlements-must-be-called-off-immediately-video