DNA results from Ko Tao village head’s son don't match traces on slain British tourists

[jdinasia]

The introduction and preface of that "guide" points out what it really is.

[JLCrab]

Since none of what you have quoted has actually occurred or been invoked by either the UK or Myanmar embassies, I will stick to what I have said and as to whether I understand international law or not i really don;t give a shit or not what is your opinion.

What a disrespectful attitude and response. What's the point in being on a forum when you 'don't give a shit' about someone's opinion?

When someone says in writing: But since you have just demonstrated, and admitted with your last comment, that you have no idea what the law is in this area ...

after quoting out of context a guide to consular procedures declaring that what is going on here amounts to a major international incident with international ramifications, I think my response is tepid. On page 6 it says:

LIMITATIONS ON CONSULAR ASSISTANCE

Consular assistance is not intended to immunise foreign nationals from local laws. With the exception of

individuals possessing diplomatic or consular immunity, a foreigner arrested abroad is fully subject to the

laws and judicial procedures of the receiving State, including all legal punishments that may be imposed

for breaches of those laws.

[BoristheBlade]

and we don't give a shit about your opinion either

Since none of what you have quoted has actually occurred or been invoked by either the UK or Myanmar embassies, I will stick to what I have said and as to whether I understand international law or not i really don;t give a shit or not what is your opinion.

[BoristheBlade]

This is a cover up of monumental proportions.

This country is on the verge of enormous change and nothing can "rock the boat", not even the murder of two foreign guest by the 'elite"

[JLCrab]

and we don't give a shit about your opinion either

Since none of what you have quoted has actually occurred or been invoked by either the UK or Myanmar embassies, I will stick to what I have said and as to whether I understand international law or not i really don;t give a shit or not what is your opinion.

Thank you. I'll just have to resign myself to the fact that some people on ThaiVisa do not think that I understand international law. However people around the world at large NGOs, government agencies, and at law firms, whether they may agree with me or not, think otherwise.

Edited November 30, 2014 by JLCrab

[BoristheBlade]

I am sure you do understand international law, but this is Thailand.

Thailand does not do International Law.

and we don't give a shit about your opinion either

Since none of what you have quoted has actually occurred or been invoked by either the UK or Myanmar embassies, I will stick to what I have said and as to whether I understand international law or not i really don;t give a shit or not what is your opinion.

Thank you. I'll just have to resign myself to the fact that people on ThaiVisa do not think that I may understand international law or not. However people around the world world at large NGOs, government agencies, and at law firms, whether they may agree with me or not, think otherwise.

[JLCrab]

I am sure you do understand international law, but this is Thailand.

Thailand does not do International Law.

and we don't give a shit about your opinion either

Since none of what you have quoted has actually occurred or been invoked by either the UK or Myanmar embassies, I will stick to what I have said and as to whether I understand international law or not i really don;t give a shit or not what is your opinion.

Thank you. I'll just have to resign myself to the fact that people on ThaiVisa do not think that I may understand international law or not. However people around the world world at large NGOs, government agencies, and at law firms, whether they may agree with me or not, think otherwise.

As to how and on what basis the governments of the victims or those under arrest can intervene in any manner in the Thai judicial process is most certainly a matter of international law.

Edited November 30, 2014 by JLCrab

[Bleacher Bum East]

Since none of what you have quoted has actually occurred or been invoked by either the UK or Myanmar embassies, I will stick to what I have said and as to whether I understand international law or not i really don;t give a shit or not what is your opinion.

What a disrespectful attitude and response. What's the point in being on a forum when you 'don't give a shit' about someone's opinion?

When someone says in writing: But since you have just demonstrated, and admitted with your last comment, that you have no idea what the law is in this area ...

after quoting out of context a guide to consular procedures declaring that what is going on here amounts to a major international incident with international ramifications, I think my response is tepid. On page 6 it says:

LIMITATIONS ON CONSULAR ASSISTANCE

Consular assistance is not intended to immunise foreign nationals from local laws. With the exception of

individuals possessing diplomatic or consular immunity, a foreigner arrested abroad is fully subject to the

laws and judicial procedures of the receiving State, including all legal punishments that may be imposed

for breaches of those laws.

Section 6 of The Guide lists some of the actions that the authors believe in their expert legal/scholarly opinion a foreign consul can take if it chooses in assistance of its nationals while remaining within the confines of the Vienna Convention.

That was the subject of discussion.

And I specifically stated that the entire Guide should be read to understand all of the issues involved.

Section 6 is not at all in conflict with the "Limitations on Consular Assistance" section that you quoted. The legal concepts in the two sections work together in the following manner:

A foreign government can take the actions mentioned in Section 6 if it chooses to do so and they would not violate the Vienna Convention by doing taking these actions . . . but these actions in Section 6 cannot "immunise foreign nationals from local laws", and "a foreigner arrested abroad is fully subject to the laws and judicial procedures of the receiving State, including all legal punishments that may be imposed for breaches of those laws".

In other words, the actions in Section 6 do not by definition go beyond the "Limitations on Consular Assistance" that you quote.

You're bombast doesn't change the fact that you don't know how to read or analyze the law. . . although I understand it made you angry that someone that does know how to do so called you out on that.

But at least now you have some material to work with in the debate that you were too lazy to find for yourself ... you're welcome for that.

And where did this statement come from?:

". . . a guide to consular procedures declaring that what is going on here amounts to a major international incident with international ramifications"

[JLCrab]

And should a foreign government invoke rights as suggested in Section 6 the host country could call in the Ambassador and order them to cease and desist or else be expelled from the country.

that is how I read and analyze it.

For some reason you've chosen to make this personal not just disagreeing but telling me what I do and don't understand.

Edited November 30, 2014 by JLCrab

[mcm991]

or law .......

I am sure you do understand international law, but this is Thailand.

Thailand does not do International Law.

and we don't give a shit about your opinion either

Since none of what you have quoted has actually occurred or been invoked by either the UK or Myanmar embassies, I will stick to what I have said and as to whether I understand international law or not i really don;t give a shit or not what is your opinion.

Thank you. I'll just have to resign myself to the fact that people on ThaiVisa do not think that I may understand international law or not. However people around the world world at large NGOs, government agencies, and at law firms, whether they may agree with me or not, think otherwise.

[RickBradford]

Thailand appears to be slipping into the abyss

BANGKOK, 29 November 2014 (NNT) – Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha asserted on Friday the government is open to input from all groups, and that the shut-down of the Human Rights Watch website was in accordance with the current internal security protocol.

http://thainews.prd.go.th/CenterWeb/NewsEN/NewsDetail?NT01_NewsID=WNPOL5711290010001

It reminds me of the famous Nicaraguan government affair, when the Sandinistas said:

"The newspaper said that we were against openness and were trying to curtail the freedom of the press. That was a lie and we couldn't let them publish it."

[DennisF]

This is a cover up of monumental proportions.

This country is on the verge of enormous change and nothing can "rock the boat", not even the murder of two foreign guest by the 'elite"

I fully agree with your second sentence and we should add the arrest of the senior police officers into the mix.

Read the latest TV news item about this and connect the dots.

Back on topic without petty bickering:

It appears doting daddys offspring is joining uncle Suthep in the monkhood.

I dont know the ramifications of this, does it make him immune from prosecution/investigation?

Does it suggest guilt?

I wonder what the thoughts are of other members of this development and the amateur experiment regarding a

push knife on chicken skin that was done on a spacebook page.

For me, the result of the wound shapes on the chicken are uncannily similar to those on David.

[changnaam]

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run

Still the biggest question for me, why did the focus of the investigation change so quickly ?

[DennisF]

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run

Still the biggest question for me, why did the focus of the investigation change so quickly ?

simple... money and influence.

[DennisF]

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run

Still the biggest question for me, why did the focus of the investigation change so quickly ?

simple... money and influence.

Yep, in other words, all prosecutors and judges, paid in advance...

Prosecutors and judge remains to be seen, however:

The policeman in charge of the case who appeared to be straight and doing a good job was removed in favour of a supporter

of an influential group in Bangkok.

The RTP apologists would have us believe that this was the turning point of the investigation for the better due to the early

mistakes and the new guys are beyond reproach.

My question would be then: If the early investigation and promises of island mafia not being able to influence the case were

such terrible policing mistakes, why did they remove the chief investigating officer and PROMOTE him to a rank that would usually,

( if payments for promotion are to be believed), have cost a small fortune?

Confusion reigns it seems.

[Neeranam]

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run

Still the biggest question for me, why did the focus of the investigation change so quickly ?

These guys do anything for large enough sums.

[jdinasia]

This is a cover up of monumental proportions.

This country is on the verge of enormous change and nothing can "rock the boat", not even the murder of two foreign guest by the 'elite"

Please share with those of us in Thailand, what is your definition of "elite"?

[uty6543]

This is a cover up of monumental proportions.

This country is on the verge of enormous change and nothing can "rock the boat", not even the murder of two foreign guest by the 'elite"

Please share with those of us in Thailand, what is your definition of "elite"?

e·lite

əˈlēt,āˈlēt/

noun

1. a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities.

   "the elite of Britain's armed forces"

   synonyms: best, pick, cream, crème de la crème, flower,nonpareil, elect;

   high society, jet set, beautiful people, beau monde, haut monde, glitterati;

   aristocracy,nobility, upper class

But you have no need to worry JDinasia no one will ever accuse you of being elite

P.S. For those of you not in Thailand please don't read this post.

Edited November 30, 2014 by uty6543

[jdinasia]

Thanks, yet I was asking for his definition. For those of us in Thailand, we know that there is a difference between elite and rich.

[Neeranam]

This is a cover up of monumental proportions.

This country is on the verge of enormous change and nothing can "rock the boat", not even the murder of two foreign guest by the 'elite"

Please share with those of us in Thailand, what is your definition of "elite"?

e·lite

əˈlēt,āˈlēt/

noun

1. a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities.

   "the elite of Britain's armed forces"

   synonyms: best, pick, cream, crème de la crème, flower,nonpareil, elect;

   high society, jet set, beautiful people, beau monde, haut monde, glitterati;

   aristocracy,nobility, upper class

But you have no need to worry JDinasia no one will ever accuse you of being elite

P.S. For those of you not in Thailand please don't read this post.

Would anyone not in Thailand be a member in the first place?

[boomerangutang]

The 2 PM's met at a pre-scheduled function in Milan.The reason UK police stepped on Thai soil is that they were invited.

'allowed' would fit better than 'invited.' PM Cameron asked the self-appointed Thai PM if Brit experts could be allowed to assist. The Thai PM reluctantly said 'yes' though when he returned to Thailand a day later, he changed the word 'assistants' to 'observers.'

Maybe those brought to trial if brought to trial will get a fair hearing and maybe they won't. I don't see what your personal moral code has to do with it.

I didn't mention my personal moral code in the post above yours (which I assume you're responding to). But since you mentioned it, my personal moral code is more important to me (and a greater part of my character) than all the rules of all the world's countries combined.

A true little story (pardon me if it sounds like I'm waving my own flag): In California, I gave a ride to a hitchhiker. After a half hour, I let him off in Monterey. I had driven almost to SF, about 80 minutes, when I noticed something on the floor. I stopped and realized it was a very expensive camera in a paper bag. I immediately drove back to Monterrey, spent about a half hour looking for the guy. Found him and returned the camera, no reward (none asked, none offered). That's a modicum of what a personal moral code comprises.

Now try to screw your mind in to as objective a mind-frame as possible, and tell us whether you think the police investigators and/or the headman's people, ....have a better personal moral codes than, let's say, a guy who gets a house-sitting position and trashes the house.

When I was a little kid, I read Hans Christian Anderson's 'The Emperor's New Clothes' and the message has stayed with me every since.

So, in light of your personal moral code ; have you personally stepped forward and protested? Or have you relied on the anonymity of the internet to push your agenda?

(note- it was you that brought up this personal moral code. You said you would like to believe that you would personally make a stand.)

Yes, I would like to all I can. I'm in northernmost Thailand with daily commitments (employees, projects, etc.). The most I can reasonably do now re; KT crimes is talk to people, discuss on blogs, write letters to Eng.lang. newspapers. I might donate to a fund for the B2 if I knew of one. If I was near Samui, I might try to talk to the scapegoats, but I rather doubt I'd be allowed so do so. I have some close Burmese friends so you could say I have a subjective interest in this case, besides an overriding interest in seeing justice done.

[jdinasia]

So the answer is "no"

[kcirtapyelrah]

There’s one simple way to shoot this whole S,H,1T Sandwich down in flames, was Hannah taking contraception? If so the implications are obvious. British forensics will know that and so will family and friend. Will the defence be permitted to call foreign witnesses? I don’t know if that’s been mentioned, I don’t have the time to read every post. It’s obvious that there is a lot more to this discussing and sickening case than meets the eye, it’s got staged written all over it. Let it go to trial and I’m sure the world will see more than the Thais will want them to see.

As already pointed out by one very sensible person, there no evidence that David and Hannah were on intermit terms, they were not sitting together in the pub or together when outside in a group. In the pub a guy with tattoos was sitting where you would expect David to have been, Hannah’s friends will have a good idea. There are a few people on here with heads full of cuddly toys, the two Burmese didn’t do it, and they weren’t physically capable.

[DennisF]

This is a cover up of monumental proportions.

This country is on the verge of enormous change and nothing can "rock the boat", not even the murder of two foreign guest by the 'elite"

Please share with those of us in Thailand, what is your definition of "elite"?

e·lite

əˈlēt,āˈlēt/

noun

1. a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities.

   "the elite of Britain's armed forces"

   synonyms: best, pick, cream, crème de la crème, flower,nonpareil, elect;

   high society, jet set, beautiful people, beau monde, haut monde, glitterati;

   aristocracy,nobility, upper class

But you have no need to worry JDinasia no one will ever accuse you of being elite

P.S. For those of you not in Thailand please don't read this post.

Why would you bother to reply to an RTP apologist who always posts a baiting one liner.

Ignore him please.

[jdinasia]

There’s one simple way to shoot this whole S,H,1T Sandwich down in flames, was Hannah taking contraception? If so the implications are obvious. British forensics will know that and so will family and friend. Will the defence be permitted to call foreign witnesses? I don’t know if that’s been mentioned, I don’t have the time to read every post. It’s obvious that there is a lot more to this discussing and sickening case than meets the eye, it’s got staged written all over it. Let it go to trial and I’m sure the world will see more than the Thais will want them to see.

As already pointed out by one very sensible person, there no evidence that David and Hannah were on intermit terms, they were not sitting together in the pub or together when outside in a group. In the pub a guy with tattoos was sitting where you would expect David to have been, Hannah’s friends will have a good idea. There are a few people on here with heads full of cuddly toys, the two Burmese didn’t do it, and they weren’t physically capable.

Perhaps you are unaware that people choose to use condoms for reasons other than contraception.

[StealthEnergiser]

The 2 PM's met at a pre-scheduled function in Milan.The reason UK police stepped on Thai soil is that they were invited.

'allowed' would fit better than 'invited.' PM Cameron asked the self-appointed Thai PM if Brit experts could be allowed to assist. The Thai PM reluctantly said 'yes' though when he returned to Thailand a day later, he changed the word 'assistants' to 'observers.'

Maybe those brought to trial if brought to trial will get a fair hearing and maybe they won't. I don't see what your personal moral code has to do with it.

I didn't mention my personal moral code in the post above yours (which I assume you're responding to). But since you mentioned it, my personal moral code is more important to me (and a greater part of my character) than all the rules of all the world's countries combined.

A true little story (pardon me if it sounds like I'm waving my own flag): In California, I gave a ride to a hitchhiker. After a half hour, I let him off in Monterey. I had driven almost to SF, about 80 minutes, when I noticed something on the floor. I stopped and realized it was a very expensive camera in a paper bag. I immediately drove back to Monterrey, spent about a half hour looking for the guy. Found him and returned the camera, no reward (none asked, none offered). That's a modicum of what a personal moral code comprises.

Now try to screw your mind in to as objective a mind-frame as possible, and tell us whether you think the police investigators and/or the headman's people, ....have a better personal moral codes than, let's say, a guy who gets a house-sitting position and trashes the house.

When I was a little kid, I read Hans Christian Anderson's 'The Emperor's New Clothes' and the message has stayed with me every since.

So, in light of your personal moral code ; have you personally stepped forward and protested? Or have you relied on the anonymity of the internet to push your agenda?

(note- it was you that brought up this personal moral code. You said you would like to believe that you would personally make a stand.)

Yes, I would like to all I can. I'm in northernmost Thailand with daily commitments (employees, projects, etc.). The most I can reasonably do now re; KT crimes is talk to people, discuss on blogs, write letters to Eng.lang. newspapers. I might donate to a fund for the B2 if I knew of one. If I was near Samui, I might try to talk to the scapegoats, but I rather doubt I'd be allowed so do so. I have some close Burmese friends so you could say I have a subjective interest in this case, besides an overriding interest in seeing justice done.

Have you wrote to Scotland Yard ?

[thailandchilli]

"I confess that I stole black iphone 4 which belongs to David Miller. I also did kill David and Hannah and stole the belongings from Davids shorts. It was the police who taken the cellphone back."

The above is the official confession of one of the B2 that was later retracted.

The document that this translation was taken from is online for everyone to see and is signed by the RTP and one of the B2. It also has a photo of the B2 suspect being questioned at the 'safe house'. This document looks authentic but take it as it is, its not verified so cannot guarantee its the real one. If the scant autopsy report that was published is real and is anything to go by then this goes in keeping with the lack of details that are required in Thailand for court cases.

Of course we have yet to see if the judge takes this confession into account because of the retraction and of course we also have the allegations that the confession was made under torture or threat of torture.

If the judge does take it into consideration then I would say there's absolutely no hope for a fair trial along with all the other failings that currently exist on the evidence and lack of evidence.

If you'd like to find the document online pm me

[DennisF]

"I confess that I stole black iphone 4 which belongs to David Miller. I also did kill David and Hannah and stole the belongings from Davids shorts. It was the police who taken the cellphone back."

The above is the official confession of one of the B2 that was later retracted.

The document that this translation was taken from is online for everyone to see and is signed by the RTP and one of the B2. It also has a photo of the B2 suspect being questioned at the 'safe house'. This document looks authentic but take it as it is, its not verified so cannot guarantee its the real one. If the scant autopsy report that was published is real and is anything to go by then this goes in keeping with the lack of details that are required in Thailand for court cases.

Of course we have yet to see if the judge takes this confession into account because of the retraction and of course we also have the allegations that the confession was made under torture or threat of torture.

If the judge does take it into consideration then I would say there's absolutely no hope for a fair trial along with all the other failings that currently exist on the evidence and lack of evidence.

If you'd like to find the document online pm me

If thats all they have its pathetic.

That is not exactly a detailed confession in anyones eyes..

[thailandchilli]

I'm only 2 or 3 hours drive and then ferry from Samui, my daughter is on school holidays from the 12th Dec so presuming its not too late, then in the holidays I will make a trip to visit a colleague in Samui and also see if its possible to visit the B2. I'm sure if I tweet Andy Hall he will let me know the procedure for making a visit. I'd be happy to bring with me any messages for them from anyone on here.

[DennisF]

I'm only 2 or 3 hours drive and then ferry from Samui, my daughter is on school holidays from the 12th Dec so presuming its not too late, then in the holidays I will make a trip to visit a colleague in Samui and also see if its possible to visit the B2. I'm sure if I tweet Andy Hall he will let me know the procedure for making a visit. I'd be happy to bring with me any messages for them from anyone on here.

That would be a gesture I am sure they would appreciate, if you are 'in time'.

What concerns me a little is that if the B2 are released then they will have a story to tell and the World will want to listen.

The concern is that the RTP et al know that too and it is one of the reasons I am dubious about their being found innocent

and/or being released.

The powers that be do not want that story told so these boys are in some peril.