Compliance with Thailand's Anti-Money Laundering Law

[SanSaiExPat]

I have a Thai issued American Express Card in addition to the American Express cards I have that are issued in the USA. I also have a Bangkok Bank Savings account. Today I received a letter and form to fill out (see attached) from American Express Thailand telling me to provide the information in the attached form within 15 days. What is doesn't say is what the "or else" is. What if I just cancel my American Express card? Why hasn't Bangkok Bank sent me a similar letter? Who are American Express and the Thai Government going to share this information with, the US Government? Why pick my American Express card with my 60,000 Baht credit limit? I don't usually launder all my human trafficking, Ivory smuggling, and Ya Ice money through my American Express card. I keep that money in my Burmese and Cambodian Bank accounts and make border runs to access those funds. 555 Has anyone else received a similar letter? And again does anyone know what happens when you fail to comply within 15 days? I know, I know, these are questions I should be asking American Express and trust me I will but I thought with the vast brain trust here at TV I might get a faster, more accurate, less sarcastic and less ambiguous answer than from American Express. 555 (Pom poot len my friends.) But seriously, the information they are asking for in the form is pretty damn intrusive and extensive and will take a little time to comply with. I'd appreciate hearing from anyone with experience or knowledge on this topic.

[ukrules]

I believe this is a symptom of what happens when the US threatens every bank in the world who does US business with large fines unless they meet some very stringent banking rules and regulations / reporting requirements.

These relatively new rules have been causing problems for Americans all over the world, some banks have been refusing to open accounts for US citizens because of this issue, others in different places have been closing existing accounts and telling people to get their money out.

[Pib]

I see nothing in the two docs the OP posted linking this to FATCA as ukrules implies. The letter says it's related to compliance with Thailand's anti-money laundering law...and as we know Thailand has taken a lot of international heat over the last few years regarding money-laundering and lack of enforcement.

Just to partially quote the article regarding Thailand Anti-Money Laundering Regulation 2013 webpage: "....Thailand, which traditionally has had a reputation as a “crossroads” for numerous illegal activities and of the laundering of significant sums of tainted money."

Don't confuse FATCA which went into effect 1 Jul 14 with Anti-Money Laundering Laws which have been in effect for numerous years with little enforcement by Thailand...but apparently Thailand can no longer continue to turn a blind eye to money laundering due to pressure from the international community.

[crazygreg44]

two weeks ago I cleared an issue with my Thai bank - account registered on old passport number, asked to register the new passport number - and they made me sign a similar form. In this form it clearly stated that it only refers to U.S. citizens. When I said that I am not a U.S. citizen, they smiled and asked me, then just sign it nevertheless, all is fine. I left the bank somewhat spooked and bewildered. Money laundering laws ? Yes of course some governments are stretching their tentacles. The new horror, the dream of every bureaucrat, the Cancellation of material money ( a paper money bill or coins) is luring ahead. Smartphone (NFC technology, Apple Pay) and credit cards companies will lead the force ! The lesser of us use credit cards or pay online and pay all and sundry with a bank card, the longer material money will be condoned in use. 1984 is a sweet breeze . . . . .

Edited November 4, 2014 by crazygreg44

[Pib]

Expect the form or questionnaire you signed was indeed FATCA related...and since you were not American you checked a block saying your not American and then signed. If you have been American you would have completed a few more blocks and signed also. And then if American you would have probably been presented with another form called a IRS W-9 form (or local bank form equivalent) where you entered your name, address, and "social security number." This way if you are American the bank has your social security number for possible reporting to the U.S. IRS similar to how American banks, companies, etc., report an American's wages, interest earned, etc., to the IRS.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Pib

[ukrules]

I see nothing in the two docs the OP posted linking this to FATCA as ukrules implies. The letter says it's related to compliance with Thailand's anti-money laundering law...and as we know Thailand has taken a lot of international heat over the last few years regarding money-laundering and lack of enforcement.

Just to partially quote the article regarding Thailand Anti-Money Laundering Regulation 2013 webpage: "....Thailand, which traditionally has had a reputation as a “crossroads” for numerous illegal activities and of the laundering of significant sums of tainted money."

Don't confuse FATCA which went into effect 1 Jul 14 with Anti-Money Laundering Laws which have been in effect for numerous years with little enforcement by Thailand...but apparently Thailand can no longer continue to turn a blind eye to money laundering due to pressure from the international community.

Interesting, I didn't notice the thumbnails when I first replied to this.

I still suspect they're doing ths to identify Americans.

[Pib]

As FYI, here's the website for the Thailand Anti Money Laundering Office (AMLO). Once going to the page, click English and then look under the Laws & Regulations sublink and then surf around Notifications and Ministerial Regulations links. You'll see information where the AMLO is basically getting busy in implementing changes driven by the Anti-Money Laundering Act 2013 and Counter Terrorism Financing Act 2013....and you see in some of the articles about how to agencies/companies/etc., should review current and new customers financial accounts and information collection requirements depending on the type of customer. Cut and paste from one of the pages is below to give a sense of the type of customers to be looked at. I expect companies have significant latitude as to how they comply, collect customer info, etc. Although these acts were last year it took a while for the AMLO to provide detailed guidance/regulations.

[rickirs]

I notice there is no contact telephone number. Only a fax number. The fax number has been cut and pasted on the information sheet, presumably to match the fax mumber shown in the letter. The letter is addressed generically; typically, wouldn't one would see your name and last 4 digits of your card numbers?

Mr. Anakkawat Kowathanakul is a real person, Executive Vice President, Bangkok Bank; BB does support American Express.

On the risk that this letter for financial information may be a fake to gain access to your personal information, I suggest you confirm the authenticity of the letter before you respond. Calling the financial institutions that issued you the credit cards, ie., using the contact numbers on the credit cards, might be a quick start.

[oztaurus]

I notice there is no contact telephone number. Only a fax number. The fax number has been cut and pasted on the information sheet, presumably to match the fax mumber shown in the letter. The letter is addressed generically; typically, wouldn't one would see your name and last 4 digits of your card numbers?

Mr. Anakkawat Kowathanakul is a real person, Executive Vice President, Bangkok Bank; BB does support American Express.

On the risk that this letter for financial information may be a fake to gain access to your personal information, I suggest you confirm the authenticity of the letter before you respond. Calling the financial institutions that issued you the credit cards, ie., using the contact numbers on the credit cards, might be a quick start.

I agree, that is a very minimalist letterhead for Amex - I would be highly suspicious of this letter and take it to my local branch of Bangkok Bank for verification. I would not be sending any information to the contact points given in this letter.

[charliebadenhop]

This thread is already rather long so excuse me if I am repeating what someone else has said-

If you are a US citizen you are required by law to file a report every year stating how much money you have had in each foreign bank account over the course of the year. The max amount over the course of the year....

Google for FBAR. I think that is the term.

If you don't do this then you can be subject to a whole lot of trouble.

[tinhead]

Consequence: they may temporarily suspend your account until you become compliant. Surprised you were not asked to fill in a W8 as well.

[hawker9000]

This thread is already rather long so excuse me if I am repeating what someone else has said-

If you are a US citizen you are required by law to file a report every year stating how much money you have had in each foreign bank account over the course of the year. The max amount over the course of the year....

Google for FBAR. I think that is the term.

If you don't do this then you can be subject to a whole lot of trouble.

If you're talking about U.S. (IRS) reporting requirements, this certainly is bogus (and typical of the scaremongering going on) as long as your total worldwide foreign accounts didn't total more than $10,000 USD at any time during the year. But it is true that if your foreign aggregate holdings are more than $10K and you don't comply with the FBAR reporting reqts, the consequences are relatively severe, yes.

"For an FBAR violation occurring after Oct. 22, 2004, the maximum civil penalty for a willful violation of the FBAR reporting and recordkeeping requirements is the greater of $100,000 or 50% of the balance in the account at the time of the violation. Non-willful violations can result in a penalty as high as $10,000 for each violation. Criminal violations of the FBAR rules can result in a fine and/or five years in prison."

IRS guidance

Update (FinCEN & e-filing)

(FBAR, incidentally, = Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts)

As long as you're below the $10K ceiling, all you have to do is check the block (on your Schedule B, I think...) acknowledging that you have foreign account(s) and report any interest earned (as you would any other). Not a big deal at all. I've never had to fill out the FBAR, but I've read here in TVF from members that have/do that doing so is not really such a big deal either, and I believe it's all done electronically now (i.e., the paper form is obsolete).

Edited November 5, 2014 by hawker9000

[Pib]

Yeap, as of last year FBAR must be submitted online--and it's actually works and is pretty easy compared to the previous years where a person had the option to report online (different online, buggy system at that time) or mail in a report. And a person gets confirmation the online report has been received/accepted.

As mentioned unless the aggregate value of all foreign financial accounts exceeds $10,000 at any time during the calendar year a person does not need to submit a FBAR. Heck, a person could have numerous foreign accounts but as long as the aggregate value of those accounts did not exceed $10K any time during the year then no FBAR report required.

But of course if you are earning interest/dividends on foreign accounts you report them on your U.S. tax return just like you would for your domestic account interest/dividends. Just because a person doesn't need to submit a FBAR report does mean he doesn't have to report interest/dividends earned and let Uncle Sam have his share.

Thailand Anti-Money Laundering Law, FBAR, FATCA, etc., seems to be no shortage now days of governments focusing on foreign accounts and foreign flow of money. A person can either fight or ignore the various data collections/reports and be looking over their shoulder all time for the tax man or hoping the bank/financial company don't close their account for failure to provide the data; or just complete the forms and satisfy various governments' data collection/reporting requirements. But always be sure it's not some scam trying to collect your personal data for identity theft purposes---that's been a long time problem way before any these new reporting/data collection requirements.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Pib

[NoshowJones]

This thread is already rather long so excuse me if I am repeating what someone else has said-

If you are a US citizen you are required by law to file a report every year stating how much money you have had in each foreign bank account over the course of the year. The max amount over the course of the year....

Google for FBAR. I think that is the term.

If you don't do this then you can be subject to a whole lot of trouble.

I find your post very interesting, and as a UK citizen, there is no way I would tell the UK government of any of my Thai bank accounts except to get any pension I am entitled to transferred into it, and only that particular bank, not any other Thai bank accounts I have.

[dapperdan]

To PLB: What would happen to the American citizen's money, if he did not file the necessary forms, to the Thai bank and they closed the account? The American citizen may not be in Thailand, for an extended period of time and never rec'd the request for information. Therefore, the account might be closed. Can he claim the money from the closed account?

If an American citizen had a Citibank account, would he automatically be compliant because the US bank, though chartered in Thailand, would know the rules?

[hawker9000]

This thread is already rather long so excuse me if I am repeating what someone else has said-

If you are a US citizen you are required by law to file a report every year stating how much money you have had in each foreign bank account over the course of the year. The max amount over the course of the year....

Google for FBAR. I think that is the term.

If you don't do this then you can be subject to a whole lot of trouble.

I find your post very interesting, and as a UK citizen, there is no way I would tell the UK government of any of my Thai bank accounts except to get any pension I am entitled to transferred into it, and only that particular bank, not any other Thai bank accounts I have.

Really? Are you sure? Even if the foreign banks where you had your accounts were reporting themselves to the taxing authority in you home country, with the substantial penalites for non-compliance (esp. when it's intentional) Americans are facing? OK, if you say so....

[Pib]

To PLB: What would happen to the American citizen's money, if he did not file the necessary forms, to the Thai bank and they closed the account? The American citizen may not be in Thailand, for an extended period of time and never rec'd the request for information. Therefore, the account might be closed. Can he claim the money from the closed account?

If an American citizen had a Citibank account, would he automatically be compliant because the US bank, though chartered in Thailand, would know the rules?

I can't say for sure what would happen to your money under Thai law. My "guess" is after a certain amount of time the bank would place your account in a "dormant/inactive" status pending resolution of the issue with the account and start charging a monthly fee of around Bt50 to Bt100 per month until the account balance is zero and then it would closed automatically. Or maybe after X-years of applying such fees and the account is still above zero the bank would need to transfer it to the govt treasury. I don't really know. As you probably know, in the U.S. state laws usually govern what happens to dormant/inactive/closed accounts with the money usually ending up in state treasury coffers after X-years unless maybe it was determined the account holder died and the next of kin may then have a claim to the money.

[NoshowJones]

This thread is already rather long so excuse me if I am repeating what someone else has said-

If you are a US citizen you are required by law to file a report every year stating how much money you have had in each foreign bank account over the course of the year. The max amount over the course of the year....

Google for FBAR. I think that is the term.

If you don't do this then you can be subject to a whole lot of trouble.

I find your post very interesting, and as a UK citizen, there is no way I would tell the UK government of any of my Thai bank accounts except to get any pension I am entitled to transferred into it, and only that particular bank, not any other Thai bank accounts I have.

Really? Are you sure? Even if the foreign banks where you had your accounts were reporting themselves to the taxing authority in you home country, with the substantial penalites for non-compliance (esp. when it's intentional) Americans are facing? OK, if you say so....

Yes I'm sure, I will not obey any laws I don't agree with if I can help it, as long as I am not interfering with anyone else. My bank accounts are my business.

[hawker9000]

Have there been any reports of this happening (i.e., banks trying to contact their already existing U.S. depositors to get them to sign such forms)? I'll be having to get a new passbook when I return shortly. I won't be asking the question myself, but I'll be curious to see if I'm presented with anything like this. My impression is that the FATCA reporting requirements for foreign banks to the U.S. IRS aren't really that onerous where the amounts involved are relatively modest, and perhaps these forms aren't really required in such cases either. I don't claim to know. All I know for sure is that at least as recently as a couple of months ago, I wasn't getting any such requests from my bank.

Edited November 5, 2014 by hawker9000

[MrBanks]

My first reflection when reading the letter and the form is that it is a scam of some type. It just does not seem to be professional enough to me.

If it were me, unless the card is vitally important to you, I would ignore it. On the other hand if the card is important I would contact Am Ex and enquire about the authenticity, I would not use the contact information on the letter. I would find (if you don't already have it) contact information that you can confirm is genuine.

I am sure that you can get an e-mail address for Am Ex and send them the letter and form and ask them to confirm it is genuine, at that time you can ask them what is the consequence of not supplying them with the information, which in my opinion after reading the form, I would say that they should already have most of it on file.

[SanSaiExPat]

I notice there is no contact telephone number. Only a fax number. The fax number has been cut and pasted on the information sheet, presumably to match the fax mumber shown in the letter. The letter is addressed generically; typically, wouldn't one would see your name and last 4 digits of your card numbers?

Mr. Anakkawat Kowathanakul is a real person, Executive Vice President, Bangkok Bank; BB does support American Express.

On the risk that this letter for financial information may be a fake to gain access to your personal information, I suggest you confirm the authenticity of the letter before you respond. Calling the financial institutions that issued you the credit cards, ie., using the contact numbers on the credit cards, might be a quick start.

No it's real. In the letter they recommend calling the "Customer Service Number on the back of your card." which I did and American Express verified that it is a valid and authentic letter.

[MrBanks]

As you have satisfied yourself that it is genuine (and only you can decide that) then all that remains is for you to decide how much, or how little, of the information that you want to share with them.

I guess it comes down to how important the card is versus how important your privacy is.

I believe that if you are using their financial service, they have a right to as much information as makes them comfortable to deal with you. On the other hand you have the right to decide if they are asking for more information than you are prepared to give.

In my case I have nothing to hide, therefore if I wanted to keep the card and I was sure that the request was genuine, I would give them the information.

As a matter of interest which questions do you find to be intrusive? It seems to me that they they are only asking for your address / contact information, they need that to find you in the event that you don't pay. Secondly they are asking about your occupation, obviously to confirm your ability to pay.

I would have thought that it was pretty basic information in a financial transaction where you are using their cash, even if you pay your balance in full monthly you are still asking for limited credit. They just want to know that they can get their money back.

[dapperdan]

To PLB: What would happen to the American citizen's money, if he did not file the necessary forms, to the Thai bank and they closed the account? The American citizen may not be in Thailand, for an extended period of time and never rec'd the request for information. Therefore, the account might be closed. Can he claim the money from the closed account?

If an American citizen had a Citibank account, would he automatically be compliant because the US bank, though chartered in Thailand, would know the rules?

I can't say for sure what would happen to your money under Thai law. My "guess" is after a certain amount of time the bank would place your account in a "dormant/inactive" status pending resolution of the issue with the account and start charging a monthly fee of around Bt50 to Bt100 per month until the account balance is zero and then it would closed automatically. Or maybe after X-years of applying such fees and the account is still above zero the bank would need to transfer it to the govt treasury. I don't really know. As you probably know, in the U.S. state laws usually govern what happens to dormant/inactive/closed accounts with the money usually ending up in state treasury coffers after X-years unless maybe it was determined the account holder died and the next of kin may then have a claim to the money.

[dapperdan]

So the money in the account won't just be confiscated, if the depositor is not around for 6 months. What you say makes sense. When I looked up the new foreign law last year, I think it had a higher allowance than $10,000. But now it appears to be $10,000.

When I told my accountant, in Florida, last tax season, about my foreign accounts, he said he couldn't find a place to enter it on the 1040 or any of the supplemental forms. Now I see it has to be done separately, on line. I'll deal with that when I get to U.S. I'm not going to worry about it. If the bank asks for my SS# I'll gladly supply it. I'll report to the IRS whatever my foreign deposits are. Thanx

[jmwpga]

To PLB: What would happen to the American citizen's money, if he did not file the necessary forms, to the Thai bank and they closed the account? The American citizen may not be in Thailand, for an extended period of time and never rec'd the request for information. Therefore, the account might be closed. Can he claim the money from the closed account?

If an American citizen had a Citibank account, would he automatically be compliant because the US bank, though chartered in Thailand, would know the rules?

An American citizen, as I am, who has bank accounts, time deposits, etc. with Citibank THAILAND will receive a 1099 from Citibank-TH at year end even though Citi-TH is a Thai bank.

[Pib]

So the money in the account won't just be confiscated, if the depositor is not around for 6 months. What you say makes sense. When I looked up the new foreign law last year, I think it had a higher allowance than $10,000. But now it appears to be $10,000.

When I told my accountant, in Florida, last tax season, about my foreign accounts, he said he couldn't find a place to enter it on the 1040 or any of the supplemental forms. Now I see it has to be done separately, on line. I'll deal with that when I get to U.S. I'm not going to worry about it. If the bank asks for my SS# I'll gladly supply it. I'll report to the IRS whatever my foreign deposits are. Thanx

Where you say "I think it had a higher allowance than $10,000" you may be thinking a FATCA related requirement on your income tax return which partially quoted below which is different from the FBAR report. The FBAR report is completely separate and not submitted with your income tax return.

Reporting by U.S. Taxpayers Holding Foreign Financial Assets

FATCA requires certain U.S. taxpayers who hold foreign financial assets with an aggregate value of more than the reporting threshold (at least $50,000) to report information about those assets on Form 8938, which must be attached to the taxpayer’s annual income tax return

[dapperdan]

You are right. I have to tell my accountant about Form 8938. I'm surprised he didn't know about it. Or I can just keep it under $50,000. About 1.5 Million Baht.

[Pib]

Here's a link to a Bangkok Bank webpage that summarizes Thailand Anti-Money Laundering Ministerial Regulations 2011. Gives examples, baht amounts, etc. Since the AmEx letter referenced the 2013 regulation I expect there were some changes/updates to tighten things up even more.

[dapperdan]

The bank always makes a copy of my passport. I thought it was for ID. If I had time for games, I'd transfer a small amount and see if they'd make a copy, as well.

[worgeordie]

If the banks and Govts.are so worried about money laundering, how does

all the Billions of Bhat of corruption money get cleaned here, suitcases to

H.K. Singapore, building Condos and Malls ?

Just pleased i am not American,your country has you by the balls,while

trying to control you with fear,of,well lots of things.

regards worgeordie