British police examining Koh Tao murder probe to return to UK

[BoristheBlade]

They confessed because they were tortured, where is the RTP Proof.

Why did the accused have no lawyer present ? This is an offence which can carry the ultimate price...capital punishment (DEATH) . The lack of a lawyer at the interrogation nulls the charges for a start...The conduct of the RTP is appalling

If the RTP had proof and had investigated these two Burmese, the trial would already have taken place.

As it is, the courts will not take it....why??.....They KNOW this is a stitch up

This has backfired for the Thai authorities, and it's thanks to the power of social media and THAI social media at that. The British Police presence also had a major influence on the courts. They know the reputation of the MET.....

Is the world going to believe The Metropolitan Police or the RTP...I think we all know the answer to that, and I am sure judge Somchai does too.

Edited November 13, 2014 by BoristheBlade

[jdinasia]

A confession extorted as result of alleged torture and with no lawyer present is not considered a lie in any court in any country. Quite the reverse

A confession freely given after being informed of rights is admissible in most places. A second spontaneous confession given to a human rights commissioner with no threats and after rights are explained would almost always be admissible.

The judges will decide the admissibility of the confessions.

[thailandchilli]

A confession extorted as result of alleged torture and with no lawyer present is not considered a lie in any court in any country. Quite the reverse

A confession freely given after being informed of rights is admissible in most places. A second spontaneous confession given to a human rights commissioner with no threats and after rights are explained would almost always be admissible.

The judges will decide the admissibility of the confessions.

Informed of rights by who? Given freely, how can it have been given freely if it was under the duress of torture, there was no lawyer, plus an interpreter who has cultural differences that conflict with the 2 suspects.

If you are going to quote me then do so in its entirety, you conveniently missed my last sentence

[jdinasia]

A confession extorted as result of alleged torture and with no lawyer present is not considered a lie in any court in any country. Quite the reverse

A confession freely given after being informed of rights is admissible in most places. A second spontaneous confession given to a human rights commissioner with no threats and after rights are explained would almost always be admissible.

The judges will decide the admissibility of the confessions.

Informed of rights by who? Given freely, how can it have been given freely if it was under the duress of torture, there was no lawyer, plus an interpreter who has cultural differences that conflict with the 2 suspects.

If you are going to quote me then do so in its entirety, you conveniently missed my last sentence

I am not responsible for how the quotes work with / after an edit.

[thailandchilli]

A confession extorted as result of alleged torture and with no lawyer present is not considered a lie in any court in any country. Quite the reverse

A confession freely given after being informed of rights is admissible in most places. A second spontaneous confession given to a human rights commissioner with no threats and after rights are explained would almost always be admissible.

The judges will decide the admissibility of the confessions.

Informed of rights by who? Given freely, how can it have been given freely if it was under the duress of torture, there was no lawyer, plus an interpreter who has cultural differences that conflict with the 2 suspects.

If you are going to quote me then do so in its entirety, you conveniently missed my last sentence

I am not responsible for how the quotes work with / after an edit.

The time stamp seems not to agree with that

[jdinasia]

A confession extorted as result of alleged torture and with no lawyer present is not considered a lie in any court in any country. Quite the reverse

A confession freely given after being informed of rights is admissible in most places. A second spontaneous confession given to a human rights commissioner with no threats and after rights are explained would almost always be admissible.

The judges will decide the admissibility of the confessions.

Informed of rights by who? Given freely, how can it have been given freely if it was under the duress of torture, there was no lawyer, plus an interpreter who has cultural differences that conflict with the 2 suspects.

If you are going to quote me then do so in its entirety, you conveniently missed my last sentence

I am not responsible for how the quotes work with / after an edit.

The time stamp seems not to agree with that

Please refer that to forum support or the mods.

[joebrown]

I don't know much about DNA and in this case I believe it is worthless because of the beach crime scene being disturbed before forensic evidence was obtained in a 'professional' manner. However, I'm intrigued by someone's earlier post about 'date rape drugs' being present in hair samples up to 1 month from death. Is it possible that despite Hannah being embalmed before repatriation, the presence of drugs might have been found in her hair, by the UK forensics team. If this drug has been found, it would establish a motive and possibly where and by whom it was administered. Sean Mcanna has a shady past and I believe he was well aware of the 'drugs scene' and availability on KT. I think he knows all the gory details about these murders, and he only escaped the clutches of the locals, because he had their photos and immediately posted them and his 'suicide/death' threat story on Facebook.

I have high hopes that the UK inquest will give us a clearer insight into what happened on KT that night. I know it's conjecture at best, and will certainly be labelled 'conspiracy thoery' by you know who!

[BoristheBlade]

There is no information in the public domain to say the bodies were embalmed or cleansed before they were repatriated.

The British Home Office Pathologists are the best in the world. If there are dna samples or drugs on or in the two victims bodies it will have been found.

The coroners report will give details.

[BoristheBlade]

I would also add...

I have been present at an autopsy in the UK. A Home Office one at that. A sobering and amazing experience. The attention to detail and professionalism was quite incredible, as was the respect shown to the deceased body.

The report filed by the pathologist who carried out the autopsy was over 20 a4 pages....please compare that with the Thai Autopsy released for the victims 1 page.

It does not take a forensic scientist to see David's wounds WERE NOT done by a hoe.

[mojorison]

In light of the appalling mess of the so called investigation by the RTP its human nature to speculate. Its human nature to question whats really going on, its human nature to look for alternative theories based on the incredible cock up the RTP have made of this on every level.

We are not robots conditioned to obey the RTP line. We have education and intelligence that teaches us to ask questions and be critical. The RTP have now realized that Thai people because of social media are now also doing this.

Some of the theories posted on here are way off the mark, but some seem more than plausible and in the absence of a trusted RTP investigation then those who question and demand the truth will continue.

The RTP club labels this as 'conspiracy theroy' and attacks posts with this as its only defense. Very easy and very lazy to do so. As a result they themselves illicit these so called attacks on them.

They would gain much more respect if they actually debated the issues rather than take the RTP line in this, ie we have suspects and once charged they will be taken to court, full stop, anyone who disagrees is a conspiracy theorist!

There is nothing lazy about calling a conspiracy theory out for what it is.

I am unaware of any person on TVF saying that there are no issues with the RTP investigation.

What IS clear is that many people are claiming to "know exactly what happened" or "everyone knows exactly who did it "...

Those claims are patently untrue.

What we do know is that the RTP has conducted an investigation. The 2 Burmese men accused of being the killers have a legal team to defend them.

The 2 Burmese men confessed more than one time. One confession was to a member of the NHRC.

What is needed now is a trial with a vigorous defense, not more conspiracy theories.

Retracted confessions more than once too. What happened there?

They lied. Which time and under what circumstances, was the lie will be up to the judges.

They will have a hard time explaining why they lied to the NHRC commissioner.

You really need to understand the difference between lying, and being coerced (by torture) into confessing. It is not up to you to determine if they are telling porky pies. In your words, that is up to the judge (and jury LOL) to decide.

[Bleacher Bum East]

A confession extorted as result of alleged torture and with no lawyer present is not considered a lie in any court in any country. Quite the reverse

A confession freely given after being informed of rights is admissible in most places. A second spontaneous confession given to a human rights commissioner with no threats and after rights are explained would almost always be admissible.

The judges will decide the admissibility of the confessions.

These are extremely misleading comments.

It is not necessary that the human rights commissioner be the one who made the threats.

If if is true that during the original interrogation the two accused Burmese men were threatened with death if they did not confess,

and the Burmese men reasonably believed they were still in danger if they did not maintain their confession,

and the Burmese men then met with the HRC commissioner ---a Thai authority figure who they knew nothing about and did not trust---who asked them if they committed the crime. (and most likely in the presence of police),

then their "confession" to the HRC commissioner would still have been induced by the same original death threat.

Under the Thailand Code of Criminal Procedure, a confession made under duress due to threats of physical harm is not admissible.

If the "confessions" to the HRC commissioner are admitted, they will be considered highly suspect, and probably unreliable, by independent observers.

Definitely not reliable beyond a reasonable doubt.

And as we discussed before, this will require the HRC commissioner to take the stand and testify against someone who he was seeing in his professional capacity.

BTW, you once again use a legal term of art by saying the confessions were "spontaneous" without having any idea if that is true or not, as it depends on the entirety of the circumstances in which they were made.

I haven't seen any report that shows these confessions were "spontaneous" ... i.e. made voluntarily without being questioned or induced in any way to make the statement.

If you have a link to a report proving they were spontaneous, then please share it.

Please also share any link that shows the HRC member met privately with the accused men without any police present, and did not ask them whether they committed the crime....they simply volunteered the information for no reason without being asked and without fear of reprisal if they said they were innocent.

Even assuming the confessions were made without any questions asked in a private conversation with the HRC commissioner, which is highly doubtful, then these "confessions" may still not be admissible and if are would be highly suspect for the reasons I outlined above.

All that being said, I have no idea what a judge in Thailand would do.

I do, however, know with a high level of certainty what the international observers will think if these confessions are admitted and considered as reliable evidence by the judge.

[jdinasia]

In light of the appalling mess of the so called investigation by the RTP its human nature to speculate. Its human nature to question whats really going on, its human nature to look for alternative theories based on the incredible cock up the RTP have made of this on every level.

We are not robots conditioned to obey the RTP line. We have education and intelligence that teaches us to ask questions and be critical. The RTP have now realized that Thai people because of social media are now also doing this.

Some of the theories posted on here are way off the mark, but some seem more than plausible and in the absence of a trusted RTP investigation then those who question and demand the truth will continue.

The RTP club labels this as 'conspiracy theroy' and attacks posts with this as its only defense. Very easy and very lazy to do so. As a result they themselves illicit these so called attacks on them.

They would gain much more respect if they actually debated the issues rather than take the RTP line in this, ie we have suspects and once charged they will be taken to court, full stop, anyone who disagrees is a conspiracy theorist!

There is nothing lazy about calling a conspiracy theory out for what it is.

I am unaware of any person on TVF saying that there are no issues with the RTP investigation.

What IS clear is that many people are claiming to "know exactly what happened" or "everyone knows exactly who did it "...

Those claims are patently untrue.

What we do know is that the RTP has conducted an investigation. The 2 Burmese men accused of being the killers have a legal team to defend them.

The 2 Burmese men confessed more than one time. One confession was to a member of the NHRC.

What is needed now is a trial with a vigorous defense, not more conspiracy theories.

Retracted confessions more than once too. What happened there?

They lied. Which time and under what circumstances, was the lie will be up to the judges.

They will have a hard time explaining why they lied to the NHRC commissioner.

You really need to understand the difference between lying, and being coerced (by torture) into confessing. It is not up to you to determine if they are telling porky pies. In your words, that is up to the judge (and jury LOL) to decide.

Poor semantics on your part. 2 statements, one is not true, one is a lie.

There is no jury system here.

Edited November 13, 2014 by jdinasia

[Bleacher Bum East]

In light of the appalling mess of the so called investigation by the RTP its human nature to speculate. Its human nature to question whats really going on, its human nature to look for alternative theories based on the incredible cock up the RTP have made of this on every level.

We are not robots conditioned to obey the RTP line. We have education and intelligence that teaches us to ask questions and be critical. The RTP have now realized that Thai people because of social media are now also doing this.

Some of the theories posted on here are way off the mark, but some seem more than plausible and in the absence of a trusted RTP investigation then those who question and demand the truth will continue.

The RTP club labels this as 'conspiracy theroy' and attacks posts with this as its only defense. Very easy and very lazy to do so. As a result they themselves illicit these so called attacks on them.

They would gain much more respect if they actually debated the issues rather than take the RTP line in this, ie we have suspects and once charged they will be taken to court, full stop, anyone who disagrees is a conspiracy theorist!

There is nothing lazy about calling a conspiracy theory out for what it is.

I am unaware of any person on TVF saying that there are no issues with the RTP investigation.

What IS clear is that many people are claiming to "know exactly what happened" or "everyone knows exactly who did it "...

Those claims are patently untrue.

What we do know is that the RTP has conducted an investigation. The 2 Burmese men accused of being the killers have a legal team to defend them.

The 2 Burmese men confessed more than one time. One confession was to a member of the NHRC.

What is needed now is a trial with a vigorous defense, not more conspiracy theories.

Retracted confessions more than once too. What happened there?

They lied. Which time and under what circumstances, was the lie will be up to the judges.

They will have a hard time explaining why they lied to the NHRC commissioner.

You really need to understand the difference between lying, and being coerced (by torture) into confessing. It is not up to you to determine if they are telling porky pies. In your words, that is up to the judge (and jury LOL) to decide.

Poor semantics on your part. 2 statements, one is not true, one is a lie.

There is no jury system here.

An untrue statement made by a person who reasonably fears he will suffer physical harm if he tells the truth is not a "lie".

A "lie" in normal usage involves an intention to deceive.

If it is demonstrated the accused reasonably feared for their life if they did not confess and maintain that confession, then neither their "confession" during interrogation or to the HRC commissioner was a "lie".

If the prosecutor attempted to characterize their confession to the HRC commissioner as a "lie", then a good defense lawyer would immediately object that this is personal opinion not supported by the evidence and intended to mislead and prejudice the case, and a good judge would agree and order the statement removed from the record and not used by the prosecutor again.

In my opinion, this is how an independent observer making a determination of whether the trial was fair would view the matter.

[RickBradford]

One point that has not had much play is that the 2 Burmese suspects are Rakhine, and the interpreter was a Rohingya.

The two groups share a long mutual hatred on ethnic and religious grounds -- as recently as 2012, several hundred Rohingya were slaughtered by Rakhines.

Rohingyas are routinely persecuted wherever they go (for some reason) so I can imagine one enjoying being in the catbird seat for a change, especially with a couple of the despised Rakhine cowering in front of him.

[heyexile]

A confession extorted as result of alleged torture and with no lawyer present is not considered a lie in any court in any country. Quite the reverse

A confession freely given after being informed of rights is admissible in most places. A second spontaneous confession given to a human rights commissioner with no threats and after rights are explained would almost always be admissible.

The judges will decide the admissibility of the confessions.

These are extremely misleading comments.

It is not necessary that the human rights commissioner be the one who made the threats.

If if is true that during the original interrogation the two accused Burmese men were threatened with death if they did not confess,

and the Burmese men reasonably believed they were still in danger if they did not maintain their confession,

and the Burmese men then met with the HRC commissioner ---a Thai authority figure who they knew nothing about and did not trust---who asked them if they committed the crime. (and most likely in the presence of police),

then their "confession" to the HRC commissioner would still have been induced by the same original death threat.

Under the Thailand Code of Criminal Procedure, a confession made under duress due to threats of physical harm is not admissible.

If the "confessions" to the HRC commissioner are admitted, they will be considered highly suspect, and probably unreliable, by independent observers.

Definitely not reliable beyond a reasonable doubt.

And as we discussed before, this will require the HRC commissioner to take the stand and testify against someone who he was seeing in his professional capacity.

BTW, you once again use a legal term of art by saying the confessions were "spontaneous" without having any idea if that is true or not, as it depends on the entirety of the circumstances in which they were made.

I haven't seen any report that shows these confessions were "spontaneous" ... i.e. made voluntarily without being questioned or induced in any way to make the statement.

If you have a link to a report proving they were spontaneous, then please share it.

Please also share any link that shows the HRC member met privately with the accused men without any police present, and did not ask them whether they committed the crime....they simply volunteered the information for no reason without being asked and without fear of reprisal if they said they were innocent.

Even assuming the confessions were made without any questions asked in a private conversation with the HRC commissioner, which is highly doubtful, then these "confessions" may still not be admissible and if are would be highly suspect for the reasons I outlined above.

All that being said, I have no idea what a judge in Thailand would do.

I do, however, know with a high level of certainty what the international observers will think if these confessions are admitted and considered as reliable evidence by the judge.

Impressive. Thai NHRC still trying to get police to appear before them (4 no shows) to answer torture allegations so no probs re retracted forced confessions there,

The Thai judge? Prosecutors may not get it to him unless ordered by top police/junta brass to do so.

Judge himself well, junta can pressure any ruling they like or simply overrule anyone too troublesome. Advantage of Martial Law and unaccountable absolute power, They can do that and judge/prosecutors are well aware of it and the implications for their safety and reputations, imo.

[mcm991]

Any offence in Thailand that potentially carries the death penalty requires by law that lawyers for the accused be present for all interviews with suspects.

It is not sufficient for the police to say that the accused did not ask for a lawyer to be present.

By law, it is required.

On this alone, the confessions are inadmissable.

[Willy Eckerslike]

Any offence in Thailand that potentially carries the death penalty requires by law that lawyers for the accused be present for all interviews with suspects.

It is not sufficient for the police to say that the accused did not ask for a lawyer to be present.

By law, it is required.

On this alone, the confessions are inadmissable.

Did I read somewhere that the confessions the B2 signed were written in Thai

[heyexile]

There is no information in the public domain to say the bodies were embalmed or cleansed before they were repatriated.

The British Home Office Pathologists are the best in the world. If there are dna samples or drugs on or in the two victims bodies it will have been found.

The coroners report will give details.

There was a report early on (I think from Mr Crab but getting hard to keep track) that Thai Police Hospital standard procedure after post mortem is to thoroughly clean the bodies prior to repatriation.

If so, the cleansing may have been more or less thorough than usual depending on who was exerting most influence?

As to embalming, some posters have said that this is a requirement of commercial airlines. Perhaps there are ways around this to satisfy relatives wishes?

The independent preservation of original dna material is still an unknown and we cant`t be sure the Uk obtained any reliable samples.

[thailandchilli]

Just been looking at the facebook pages of some of the local cowards 'hardmen' in Koh Tao (I use that term because of the photos they put of themselves, guns, weapons, tattoo's, mean looks). Its quite scary the sinister culture that is lurking there.

"local DJ beach boys who often sit on the beach after the bars have finally closed and seem to be the only ones active on Facebook at 6 am.(On Sept 15)"

Quote taken from a news website that TV do not allow linking to

[greenchair]

Any offence in Thailand that potentially carries the death penalty requires by law that lawyers for the accused be present for all interviews with suspects.

It is not sufficient for the police to say that the accused did not ask for a lawyer to be present.

By law, it is required.

On this alone, the confessions are inadmissable.

Did I read somewhere that the confessions the B2 signed were written in Thai

Yes , it Was in thai. And a very short one two. If i remember correctly it says something like

( don't quote me) I was playing my guitar on the beach. I saw a foreign man and woman kissing and was aroused. I went and got a hoe and killed them.

Something like that. Very short with no detail of how they managed it.

[Scully]

I avoid conspiracy theories.

Why don't you take a look at this link

http://www.cib.police.go.th/homeeng.php

Then explain how the CIB duties are in any way involved in the investigation on Koh Tao.

As you have ignored my post on another thread, how are the tourist police not involved in this case.

[Willy Eckerslike]

Any offence in Thailand that potentially carries the death penalty requires by law that lawyers for the accused be present for all interviews with suspects.

It is not sufficient for the police to say that the accused did not ask for a lawyer to be present.

By law, it is required.

On this alone, the confessions are inadmissable.

Did I read somewhere that the confessions the B2 signed were written in Thai

Yes , it Was in thai. And a very short one two. If i remember correctly it says something like

( don't quote me) I was playing my guitar on the beach. I saw a foreign man and woman kissing and was aroused. I went and got a hoe and killed them.

Something like that. Very short with no detail of how they managed it.

Thanks gc...now did the B2 write their own confession or was it written for them...and then they signed something they could not read? or was there a second confession written in Mayanmarese or Mayanmarish or whatever their language is now called... twas Burmese.....I have been in Thailand over 20yrs and all the Thai contracts I have dealt with and signed have always had an English translation signed and countersigned, having never had to deal with the justice system in Thailand I am not sure if this counts.....anybody know...................or maybe they can read and write Thai and I have just wasted ink...........

[jdinasia]

I avoid conspiracy theories.

Why don't you take a look at this link

http://www.cib.police.go.th/homeeng.php

Then explain how the CIB duties are in any way involved in the investigation on Koh Tao.

As you have ignored my post on another thread, how are the tourist police not involved in this case.

They (contrary to what people think) don't have full police powers. They don't do investigations etc.

Feel free to find any connection between the Tourist Police, and the investigation. I would appreciate reading anything you find.

[heyexile]

Just been looking at the facebook pages of some of the local cowards 'hardmen' in Koh Tao (I use that term because of the photos they put of themselves, guns, weapons, tattoo's, mean looks). Its quite scary the sinister culture that is lurking there.

"local DJ beach boys who often sit on the beach after the bars have finally closed and seem to be the only ones active on Facebook at 6 am.(On Sept 15)"

Quote taken from a news website that TV do not allow linking to

Well, that`s the day of savage murder, most foul Sept 15. Will check the facebook pages but are the gangstas still hanging on the beach before and when bodies discovered?

BoristheBlade has to be more than a match for sick sting ray ring man. Losing the plot here.

Were not CIB guys supposed to report 10am today? What happened, cant find update

[heyexile]

Confessions in Thai.

My limited experience is that any document in Thai presented to you by Police for signing should be shunned if possible. They never provide an own language translation (unless maybe a diplomat can get one) and seem to be under no obligation to do so.

The Police world is not the commercial world and they rely on `confessions` completely to close cases..

They will say stuff like "oh this is just to say you`re free to leave, have been well treated and have no complaints. Sign here quickly so we can all go home" or any such variation, when actually you could be signing an admittance of a criminal offence.

Such methods and worse by RTP well documented by asiancorrespondent and others.

[thailandchilli]

Just been looking at the facebook pages of some of the local cowards 'hardmen' in Koh Tao (I use that term because of the photos they put of themselves, guns, weapons, tattoo's, mean looks). Its quite scary the sinister culture that is lurking there.

"local DJ beach boys who often sit on the beach after the bars have finally closed and seem to be the only ones active on Facebook at 6 am.(On Sept 15)"

Quote taken from a news website that TV do not allow linking to

Well, that`s the day of savage murder, most foul Sept 15. Will check the facebook pages but are the gangstas still hanging on the beach before and when bodies discovered?

BoristheBlade has to be more than a match for sick sting ray ring man. Losing the plot here.

Were not CIB guys supposed to report 10am today? What happened, cant find update

That's certainly what the report was insinuating that local dj's were chatting on facebook at 6am just after the murders took place.

[Scully]

I avoid conspiracy theories.

Why don't you take a look at this link

http://www.cib.police.go.th/homeeng.php

Then explain how the CIB duties are in any way involved in the investigation on Koh Tao.

As you have ignored my post on another thread, how are the tourist police not involved in this case.

They (contrary to what people think) don't have full police powers. They don't do investigations etc.

Feel free to find any connection between the Tourist Police, and the investigation. I would appreciate reading anything you find.

The translator and as I recall others were wearing tourist police t-shirts at the reenactment but as its not a link we will put it down to conspiracy.

[MJP]

One point that has not had much play is that the 2 Burmese suspects are Rakhine, and the interpreter was a Rohingya.

The two groups share a long mutual hatred on ethnic and religious grounds -- as recently as 2012, several hundred Rohingya were slaughtered by Rakhines.

Rohingyas are routinely persecuted wherever they go (for some reason) so I can imagine one enjoying being in the catbird seat for a change, especially with a couple of the despised Rakhine cowering in front of him.

Superb observation and insight.

[ggt]

They wisely chose to compile their report...after leaving Thailand...so they could live to tell their story.

[englishoak]

A confession extorted as result of alleged torture and with no lawyer present is not considered a lie in any court in any country. Quite the reverse

A confession freely given after being informed of rights is admissible in most places. A second spontaneous confession given to a human rights commissioner with no threats and after rights are explained would almost always be admissible.

The judges will decide the admissibility of the confessions.

Wrong, there was no second confession in writing only heresay of the Thai NHRC allegedly to a Thai newspaper which are about as credible as facebook like the Thai claim the UK is happy with the case etc etc and all that other bunk they have been coming out with from all quarters.

Also it is the duty to make sure a person understands their rights by the HRC and it would have had to have been explained very clearly why the NHCR was there and it wasnt as an interrogator, so excuse me if it dosnt look entirely odd and out of place they would confess to a human rights advisor when its already clear their rights were violated.

I have never heard such a crazy story as confessing to a HR rep when they are there to investigate abuses.. youll note no other but the Thai one made that claim and with no witnesses.

spontaneous my ass.

back on ignore