800k in Bank Acct - any with ATM access?

[craigt3365]

My mother is 89 and in failing health. She can't sign anything, is blind and has late stage Alzheimer's. We went to the bank yesterday for her retirement visa extension and had some issues because she couldn't sign. So...I just put the pen in her hand and helped her. The bank official wasn't impressed and said if she ever has to withdraw money, she'll have to sign. Which is next to impossible now.

So...now I'm a bit nervous. What happens if she passes? The bank said we'll have to visit a court to get access to the account. I've no idea how easy or hard it is to do this, but can only imagine it won't be easy.

I'd love to find an account that pays interest AND has an ATM card attached. Or at least a way to transfer the money electronically.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!!

Craig

[ubonjoe]

A normal saving account can have an ATM card or internet access. It not does not pay a lot of interest but is better than nothing.

[craigt3365]

I see the interest rate is .5% vs. 2.8% for a fixed account. Not a huge difference. And the principal amount is relatively small.

Thanks!!

[curtklay]

Hi Craig,

Like Joe says, I have a regular savings account with Kasikorn that I use for my retirement extension funds. ATM card is 200 baht per year, and online banking is available. Never had any problems.

[manarak]

A notarized signature should do the trick.

An even better option is a notarized power of attorney registered with the bank.

Edited November 12, 2014 by manarak

[VBF]

A notarized signature should do the trick.

An even better option is a notarized power of attorney registered with the bank.

I agree with that - I had one for my late Mother, although it was never needed.

Although it might be against bank policy, it might be sensible if your Mother told you her PIN, but never let anyone know you've got it!

I don't think that is actually illegal, though the bank most certainly wouldn't agree to it!!!

[Suradit69]

She really ought to have a Thai will and possibly you should have a power of attorney or custodial authority... although if she is in late stage Alzheimer's and unable to sign documents, etc. that may no longer be possible to implement since she may be considered fit to make such decisions.

If she is the sole owner of the bank account (for retirement extension requirements) and passes without a will or a court mandated assignment of her assets, that doesn't give you the legal right to drain her account using an ATM just because you know her PIN. Most likely the bank would not be aware of what you were doing, but if they knew of her passing they could block ATM access.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Suradit69

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

In terms of a retirement account suitable for a retirement extension, this is one others here use with a good interest rate:

http://www.krungsri.com/bank/PersonalBanking/DepositProducts/SavingsDeposit/MeeTaeDaiSavings.html?lang=en-US

Ayudhya also has a branch at ChaengWattana Immigration, in case that's where you're going. And I believe this account can include both an ATM card and online banking access.

In terms of the longer term, you'd want a Thai language will expressing your mother's wishes in terms of any Thai assets she holds, including any Thai bank accounts.

That's going to be a necessity in order to deal with the bank directly and/or go thru Thai probate court when that time comes.

Sounds like a living will/advance care directive ought to be drafted and filed with the local hospital of your choice, expressing your mother's wishes for the extent to which extraordinary life saving measures are or are not to be used if she becomes hospitalized.

It's also sounding like you might want to check with a Thai attorney about a conservatorship or power of attorney or what other legal means is used here for family members to look after relatives who are losing/have lost their faculties.

Might want to PM member NancyL here, as she's probably our resident expert on questions such as the ones you posed in the OP...

Edited November 12, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[VBF]

She really ought to have a Thai will and possibly you should have a power of attorney or custodial authority... although if she is in late stage Alzheimer's and unable to sign documents, etc. that may no longer be possible to implement since she may be considered fit to make such decisions.

If she is the sole owner of the bank account (for retirement extension requirements) and passes without a will or a court mandated assignment of her assets, that doesn't give you the legal right to drain her account using an ATM just because you know her PIN. Most likely the bank would not be aware of what you were doing, but if they knew of her passing they could block ATM access.

Suradit I totally agree, that would be ideal but my suggestion was merely to help Mum if she needs her money and cannot use the ATM herself. If for any reason, the correct legal documents cannot be lodged, it's a fail-safe position for both parties, relying on trust between Mother and Son. If it's actually illegal then I apologise for bringing it up but as I said above, I don't think it is. I assume the OP has the appropriate moral code to make this "appropriate"

There comes a point when one needs to consider that the money belongs to Mother and to h*ll with bank rules - they are merely a servant.

I'm NOT trying to be contentious - just offering assistance, so no flames please!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The "give XXXX your bank account PIN number and ATM card" has been a much discussed estate planning approach here in various threads on wills and such.

There are some who claim it's worked successfully. There others who say it hasn't worked when the bank somehow became aware of the account holder's passing and froze the account.

Technically, it probably is illegal, but that's probably not the main issue in that kind of circumstance. The main issue is finding a means by which the account holder's true wishes can be successfuly carried out after they have passed.

[VBF]

The "give XXXX your bank account PIN number and ATM card" has been a much discussed estate planning approach here in various threads on wills and such.

There are some who claim it's worked successfully. There others who say it hasn't worked when the bank somehow became aware of the account holder's passing and froze the account.

Technically, it probably is illegal, but that's probably not the main issue in that kind of circumstance. The main issue is finding a means by which the account holder's true wishes can be successfuly carried out after they have passed.

Once again, i agree but in this case, my comment about mutual trust is, i believe relevant. And, to repeat, i only suggest it as a fail-safe and to assist said people.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I wasn't saying don't do it. I was simply saying, there are mixed opinions on it and mixed reports of it working or not.

Ideally, Thailand would allow simple beneficiary designations outside of the court setting. But unfortunately, this country doesn't recognize that, which makes things more complex and complicated than they probably need to be.

[VBF]

I wasn't saying don't do it. I was simply saying, there are mixed opinions on it and mixed reports of it working or not.

Ideally, Thailand would allow simple beneficiary designations outside of the court setting. But unfortunately, this country doesn't recognize that, which makes things more complex and complicated than they probably need to be.

Understood - i don't know enough about Thai law to comment further. To Craig (OP) hope you find a solution that works for you and Mum.

Edited November 12, 2014 by VBF

[DogNo1]

I don't know the practicality of a power of attorney in Thailand but in the US my dad gave me a power of attorney and I was able to conduct all of his banking business and investment management for him before he died. Perhaps a power of attorney would give the OP the most flexibility in handling his mother's affairs.

[KittenKong]

In terms of a retirement account suitable for a retirement extension, this is one others here use with a good interest rate:

http://www.krungsri.com/bank/PersonalBanking/DepositProducts/SavingsDeposit/MeeTaeDaiSavings.html?lang=en-US

Ayudhya also has a branch at ChaengWattana Immigration, in case that's where you're going. And I believe this account can include both an ATM card and online banking access.

Yes, this is the most suitable account that I know of given the OP's requirements (leaving aside the legal issues).

The branch outside View Talay 7 in Jomtien may be the best for the OP as they have lots of farang customers and know about the immigration letter.

Penalty-free withdrawals are limited to 2 per month, so best not to exceed this and just use the ATM card for withdrawals and not shopping.

[craigt3365]

Wow....great suggestions here! Thanks so much. These are very difficult times....for many reasons.

I've got a POA and living will with advanced medical directives setup, but that's from the US. I guess they'd either have to be translated here or new ones made. I do know of a lawyer here, so might visit him and see what he says.

She's living off a small retirement salary that covers her living costs. Which is great as we are now at 4 full time caregivers providing 24x7 care.

The salary is direct deposited into her account in the US, which I have full access to and transfer money here when needed. I'm setup as her representative payee for social security and have POA over her military survivors benefits and bank accounts. One reason I moved her here was due to her limited income. In the US, she'd be in trouble. In her case, a skilled nursing facility would run some 8-10k USD per month. Ugh.

She gets some medical reimbursement from the VA as my father was a vet and retired from the services. Some 70% or so is covered here, but the reimbursement process is horrible! But what to do in case of her being comatose? I'll have to noodle on that one a bit more. I'm good friends with Gavin Wadell at Phyathai in Sri Racha. I'm sure he can help me with this.

I've had access to her accounts for many years. And have managed her accounts for a long time, well before my father passed 6 years ago. I have a brother, but he's not really interested in all this. That's another topic....

That account mentioned above seems perfect. Nothing nefarious here. Just trying to protect our inheritance! 555555 It's not a lot of money, but heck, that's a lot of money. And I'd rather not have to jump through hoops just to get her money back. Which is only here in Thailand so she can easily get a visa. Getting joint ownership of her accounts in the US was easy. Don't think it will be that easy here.

I'll head over to the bank this week and withdraw the money. I'll try to have her practice her signature, but it's going to be tough. She can't even remember how to hold a pen or what to do with it. And I'll go over to the other bank and setup that new account.

Again, thanks so much for your help. One reason I love thaivisa is just this...and one reason I became a mod was to help give some back.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I've got a POA and living will with advanced medical directives setup, but that's from the US. I guess they'd either have to be translated here or new ones made. I do know of a lawyer here, so might visit him and see what he says.

Craig, AFAIK, the U.S. POA and living will mean nothing here. You need to have them done in Thai versions, not just Thai language for the POA, but also in accord with local form/terminology.

Re the living will, for example, when my wife and I went to Bumrungrad in BKK to discuss that recently, the hospital insisted we had to use THEIR form and also make an appointment to discuss it with one of their doctors. They wouldn't accept a generic Thai living will from elsewhere... Just an example.

You probably don't need a Thai attorney in order to prepare a living will. The hospitals typically will have a Ministry of Health-based form that can be filled out even in English, or it can be written by the patient as well. Best to check with the local hospital you'd be most likely to use and see their procedure. If the staff don't know what you're talking about, ask to speak with the 'palliative care" nurse or staff.

BTW, how did you find/identify the folks who you're using as caregivers here... That's always been one of the kind of challenges I've wondered about for the future???

Edited November 13, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[NancyL]

In general, there's nothing the matter with a son having access to his mom's ATM card and PIN number to help her pay her bills while she is still alive. This is a common practice and doesn't raise an eyebrow with a bank. However, the bank account should be frozen upon Mom's death until the estate is sorted. Be aware that in Thailand, if Mom dies without a Final Will, then ALL her children inherit at the same level -- even if the OP was a co-signer or joint owner on a bank account. Mom really should have a Thai Will for her Thai assets.

In Chiang Mai, I've always found banks willing to release funds from bank accounts to pay medical bills, even if the account owner is unable to sign or make a decision. They send a representative to the hospital to check out the situation and will write a check directly to the hospital. However, they will not release funds for other purposes, like to make housing rental payments or utility payment for the patient or to fly family members here to visit the patient. Also, they won't release funds at all once a person is deceased, even for the final medical bill or funeral expenses.

If Mom's only Thai asset is her bank account, then the OP doesn't need a Thai POA really, but a Final Will for Mom. Remember, a POA terminates would terminate upon Mom's death. Ultimately, her U.S. Final Will would be honored here, but it would streamline access to the money to have a Thai Final Will.

I'm surprised with the news that Thai hospitals won't honor a U.S. Living Will or Advance Health Directive. I've seen them used here in Chiang Mai. Usually the hospitals and doctors appreciate the guidance. The only time there could be a problem is if the parties around a patient were in disagreement about a patient's care.

Local practices are probably different elsewhere in Thailand. Some of the actions I've described here have taken the intervention of the local consulate because an unrelated third party was acting on behalf of the patient. This may not be necessary in the OP's case, since he is taking care of his Mom.

Edited November 13, 2014 by NancyL

[craigt3365]

Thanks. We live south of Pattaya and tend to use Pattaya International Hospital. I'm a bit concerned with some of the others around here. For non-emergency, we use Phyathai because of Gavin. Great to have someone like him to help you through all the hoops! 555555

Yes, caregivers are very difficult. The first one we got actually use to be the gardener for our village. She was a maid in a condo for 10 years before that. Wonderful lady and pretty good overall, works 6 days a week 8am till 5pm. We then hired her mother in law to be here during the day, starting around 9am till 6pm. Through the coconut network, we found another lady that comes at 6pm and stays until about 7am, she's been a maid off and on for years in our village and we know her a bit. We've got a young girl whose mother lives nearby who comes in and fills gaps during the others time off. Whew.

Luckily, we don't need a nurse. Basic care is all that's needed right now. But she can't care for herself at all. We even blend everything now as she's having problems swallowing. She forgot how to do it. Incredible. Alzheimer's is a horrible disease.

[canarysun]

Also very difficult for you too Craig! It must be a nightmare at times and 100% patience in fact it's a 24 hour " round the clock " job really!

Hard work for " A Global Moderator ".........

F.J

[craigt3365]

My brother and I will split her assets 50/50. We've got a great relationship and have full trust between us. Which is great. He's also on all her accounts and has full access to them if needed. Heck, he's got full access to my accounts also just in case it's needed in an emergency.

He's super thankful for what I'm doing, but emotionally unable to deal with her situation. Everybody has a different threshold, and mine is higher mainly due to my wife. She's wonderful to my mother.

It's a very, very, very difficult thing to do and my wife and I have struggled a lot dealing with this. The trials and tribulations have been...well...interesting. I'm doing things I never thought I'd have to do as a son!!!!

I'll pop into Pattaya Int'l and see what they have to say. Better to be prepared for this than deal with it when it happens. Which it eventually will....

Again, thanks so much for the help. We're off to the bank on Monday to close her existing account and open the new one mentioned above. I'll post back how it goes.

[craigt3365]

I just stumbled across this. More interesting reading:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/618983-the-importance-of-preparing-a-will-in-thailand/?p=8265149

Yesterday the 18th Aug 2014 the Court approved my being able to act as Administrator of the Will and now I have paperwork to go to the bank and access the deceased funds and then disperse them as per the Will.

There you have it.

From April to August 2014.

Too much of hassle.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Based on reports here, the responses of various Thai banks in these kinds of cases of a deceased account holder seems to be quite variable (as unfortunately is the norm here in so many things).

Some people report their bank required them to go thru the court probate process with a will before giving access to the funds. Others report being able to take the certified amphur will to the bank and gain access just with that. And of course, still others try to go the ATM card route.

The normal response, I suppose, would be for a concerned family to go and check with the manager of the bank where the pertinent account is held, as to their procedure in the event of an accountholder death, and then prepare accordingly. But then you get into the dilemma that what one bank manager tells you today may or may not be the same when you have to go back there in 6 months, or a year, or 5 years, and that person may or may not still be there, and the "policy" in effect before may or may not still be in effect then.

Edited November 13, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[mahjongguy]

Though it may be too late for the OP, it is usually best to have a designated beneficiary for every bank account. Then there is no need for probate. Unfortunately for some, the beneficiary can only be a legal spouse or immediate family member. Parents, siblings, children.

[craigt3365]

Based on reports here, the responses of various Thai banks in these kinds of cases of a deceased account holder seems to be quite variable (as unfortunately is the norm here in so many things).

Some people report their bank required them to go thru the court probate process with a will before giving access to the funds. Others report being able to take the certified amphur will to the bank and gain access just with that. And of course, still others try to go the ATM card route.

The normal response, I suppose, would be for a concerned family to go and check with the manager of the bank where the pertinent account is held, as to their procedure in the event of an accountholder death, and then prepare accordingly. But then you get into the dilemma that what one bank manager tells you today may or may not be the same when you have to go back there in 6 months, or a year, or 5 years, and that person may or may not still be there, and the "policy" in effect before may or may not still be in effect then.

We opened her account 2 years ago in Central Festival Pattaya, the bank's office there. When renewing her retirement visa, I had to get a letter from the bank. We called the branch in Central Festival to see if she had to come in person to get it and they said NO. I asked about the branch in Jomtien. They said NO. Well, arrived at the Jomtien branch and they wouldn't do the letter. Said mom had to be there in Person.

So, we called Central Festival, they called the Jomtien branch, who called the main office...hours later, we were still nowhere so I just took mom in. Upon arrival, the lady I spoke with before apologized and said next year, no problem. Don't have to bring mom in. Well...went back this year, luckily with mom in the car already, and we got the same routine. Oh well...different day, different story. We're changing banks. Not sure if that will help, but we're moving on...and will open that account with the ATM access!!! LOL

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

In Thailand, there is no legal ability to designate legal beneficiaries for bank accounts. No payable on death designations.

It's all done through the Thai family law statutory directives and the will / probate process.

Edited November 13, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[mahjongguy]

"No payable on death designations."

That is different from what my bank told me. Silly me for believing a bank clerk.

Thank you for the correction.

[NancyL]

Not only did my friend believe the bank manager when she wanted to name me (an unrelated person) as a beneficiary of her bank account, but ultimately Bangkok Bank did pay me the funds in her account upon her passing without the need for probate. She did have a Final Will, in English, but it was written and witnessed here in Thailand.

It probably helped that both my friend and I were very well known to the bank personnel and my friend had made her wishes very clear to them before her passing.

Edited November 13, 2014 by NancyL

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Anyone can name the person of their choice as the beneficiary of their Thai bank accounts in their Thai will, and Thai wills can take many forms.

But I've never heard or seen any Thai bank offer a beneficiary designation document outside of/without the need for a corresponding Thai will.

If anyone has ever used or received such a beneficiary form from a Thai bank, please do post it here...

[DogNo1]

Craigt: Kudos for what you are doing for your mom. In my view, what NancyL said makes sense. If you have a Thai Final Will you may not need a Thai POA unless she has other property beside the bank account that you would need manage here prior to her passing away.