Yingluck impeachment vote on December 25

[The stuttering parrot]

Mike mac your just like the rest of the minority on here who go down the track of trying to defend the junta and their grab for power via force.

As for the old vote buying story it's done by both sides and really has no effect on the final result.

The facts are the people have been robbed of their vote once again they won't forget.

As for the shins or anyone for that matter who have been legally and democratically voted in then it's up to the electorate to vote them out not forced out by the barrel of a gun everytime the yellows can't get their way.

As for me trolling that's about par for you lot when people have a different opinion .

Just hit your ignore button and do us both a favour!

[kingalfred]

Big nose has asked what planet I'm from.

Let's try planet democracy .

The one thing that simply amazes me about the yellow dem junta supporters on here.

You are in a foreign country openly cheering on an unelected junta that has taken power by the barrel of a gun and you openly support an unelectable mob of elites that can't win an election so they have to rely on the military to do it for them.

The elected government under the constitution called for an election yet yellow thugs would not allow people to vote at polling stations and the police and military stood by and did nothing.

So you bag me with one liners or abuse but I ask you guys if it was in your own home country would you allow this to happen ?

You are the sort that believes"democracy" is defined as anyone , be they a criminal, or deemed unfit for office by the country. And of course the "country" are "in your opinion" the ones who dont care if the person they want is a "crook". Well those days are over,hopefully. Your simple minded definition of "democracy" speaks volumes of your ignorance. Edited November 17, 2014 by kingalfred

[MaiChai]

Some of you seem to think Yingluck was some great statesman and politician; are we talking about the same person? If memory serves me right she was never in Parliament, unable to debate and hold her own and had a poor grasp of the issues and arguments. The only thing she had going for her was a pretty face and keeping it in the family?

Well she also had an electoral mandate. Many here don't like that, so they ignore it, and concentrate on manufacturing excises for the military coup. Over to you Ginjag!

PT won and they appointed Yingluck. If i remember correctly she was also appointed an MP at the last minute to ensure a Shin family member was directly in control. How does the saying go; all politics are dirty? So who is better; the manipulated and corrupt PT or the elite maintaining the old undemocratic old order? I think they are the same. Going on past performance the old order seems better to me and a little fairer than a Shin parliamentary dictatorship and red shirt villages where you cannot have a different opinion?

[DaffyDuck]

MikeMac - I like that nickname for them you came up, the ThaiRouge. So appropriate. I think Stuttering Parrot is right about one thing - the best way to deal with him is by placing him and his Libertarian ilk on 'ignore'.

+1 for what kingalfred and maichai contributed.

[mikemac]

MikeMac - I like that nickname for them you came up, the ThaiRouge. So appropriate. I think Stuttering Parrot is right about one thing - the best way to deal with him is by placing him and his Libertarian ilk on 'ignore'.

+1 for what kingalfred and maichai contributed.

Actually I did not come up with that very appropriate nickname, one of the other TV members did, I just use it because the hat fits.

If everyone who thought he was a troll put him on their ignore list he would be directing his troll posts at other trolls and/or genuine Shin/red supporters. Bit of a waste of time for him to post then, as he is only looking for "bites".

[DaffyDuck]

Actually I did not come up with that very appropriate nickname, one of the other TV members did, I just use it because the hat fits.

Well, it's hilariously appropriate, so thanks for introducing me to it, and kudos to whatever otter member coined ThaiRouge.

If everyone who thought he was a troll put him on their ignore list he would be directing his troll posts at other trolls and/or genuine Shin/red supporters. Bit of a waste of time for him to post then, as he is only looking for "bites".

Seems every Thailand forum has a (single) handful of that type - kinda funny that they always somehow believe they are in the majority.

In fact, the absolute silence originating from the ThaiRouge is pretty much sufficient evidence how much of a fringe (albeit loud and violent) they were originally, and that once deprived of Shin money, their spoutings and support have virtually dried up and evaporated. Poof!

[jayboy]

Big nose has asked what planet I'm from.

Let's try planet democracy .

The one thing that simply amazes me about the yellow dem junta supporters on here.

You are in a foreign country openly cheering on an unelected junta that has taken power by the barrel of a gun and you openly support an unelectable mob of elites that can't win an election so they have to rely on the military to do it for them.

The elected government under the constitution called for an election yet yellow thugs would not allow people to vote at polling stations and the police and military stood by and did nothing.

So you bag me with one liners or abuse but I ask you guys if it was in your own home country would you allow this to happen ?

When you looked at the list of ideals that form the state of democracy did you bother reading past the one that concerned free and fair elections ?

There are many more items on that list, none of which your team seemed to adhere to.

They could not even get the first one right with people being offered money to vote for them, rash promises made in order to attain votes, and intimidation of people who dared to run against them.

So stop crapping on about the democracy thing, it seems to be the only argument you have and it is full of holes.

So you bag me with one liners or abuse but I ask you guys if it was in your own home country would you allow this to happen ?

No, it would not be allowed in my home country, but it would never had got to this stage in the first place.

The Shins would all be in prison, their despicable poor excuses for political parties would not be allowed to run in the elections, their evil terrorist arm The ThaiRouge would have been blown away if they even thought about doing what they did in 2010, any that were not blown away would be in prison and their organization would be banned, like any terror organization should be.

So, there would be no need for a coup and your silly question is regarding a moot point.

Stop your trolling, you are just annoying people now.

Though I might have expressed the position slightly differently, The Stuttering Parrot is correct in all essentials in his analysis.Firstly there is little doubt that the Junta and its puppet government are determined to eradicate all traces of Thaksin's influence and this in my view will include, at very least, a 5 year ban on Yingluck.Secondly in a free and fair election - say in one year's time - all the evidence suggests that Yingluck would be easily returned to power if she was allowed to stand.This may be an unpleasant truth to contemplate for those that speak in an ignorant and unpleasant way about "crapping on about the democracy thing" - but truth it remains.Thirdly, your suggestion that Yingluck did not win a fair election victory is totally discredited by all serious sources not least Khun Abhisit.Even the Junta doesn't take that line, preferring to concentrate its efforts on educating the people into the "right way of thinking".

Meanwhile even supporters of the coup are beginning to understand that it took Thailand out of the frying pan into the fire.The international contempt for the new leadership has turned out even more acute than I had expected - with the leadership essentially given the cold shoulder internationally.

Edited November 17, 2014 by jayboy

[AleG]

Mike mac your just like the rest of the minority on here who go down the track of trying to defend the junta and their grab for power via force.

As for the old vote buying story it's done by both sides and really has no effect on the final result.

The facts are the people have been robbed of their vote once again they won't forget.

As for the shins or anyone for that matter who have been legally and democratically voted in then it's up to the electorate to vote them out not forced out by the barrel of a gun everytime the yellows can't get their way.

As for me trolling that's about par for you lot when people have a different opinion .

Just hit your ignore button and do us both a favour!

Mike mac your just like the rest of the minority on here who go down the track of trying to defend the junta and their grab for power via force.

Does that mean that you think you and people with your same views represent the majority of people in this thread?

I'm not sorry to tell you, you are factually wrong. If that extrapolates on how sure you are the Shinawatras have a majority of the Thai people on their side... well, you are wrong again.

I think your problem, and the source of your angst, is that you can't evaluate things critically, you make up scenarios were you come up on top as right, righteous and reasonable and ignore everything else. Of course reality is in conflict with that and that tension makes you angry and they you take that on others that don't buy into your fantasies.

The solution to that is, to begin with, drop your self satisfying make believe mindset, for example that anyone who disagrees with you is a "yellow dem junta lover", can you do it?

Edited November 17, 2014 by AleG

[jayboy]

Actually I did not come up with that very appropriate nickname, one of the other TV members did, I just use it because the hat fits.

Well, it's hilariously appropriate, so thanks for introducing me to it, and kudos to whatever otter member coined ThaiRouge.

If everyone who thought he was a troll put him on their ignore list he would be directing his troll posts at other trolls and/or genuine Shin/red supporters. Bit of a waste of time for him to post then, as he is only looking for "bites".

Seems every Thailand forum has a (single) handful of that type - kinda funny that they always somehow believe they are in the majority.

In fact, the absolute silence originating from the ThaiRouge is pretty much sufficient evidence how much of a fringe (albeit loud and violent) they were originally, and that once deprived of Shin money, their spoutings and support have virtually dried up and evaporated. Poof!

As to forum opinion I'm not sure you are right but in any event I'm not sure whether it is indicative of anything.

As to the relative silence of the redshirts I agree with you.There have been some interesting articles on line on the reasons for this.I wouldn't assume however that this is because the movement has evaporated.One of the most difficult lessons for some foreigners to grasp is that with the massive changes in Thai society in the last twenty years and the consequent decline in deferential behaviour, Thaksin merely was the catalyst, one who took advantage of a newly politicised majority.If he hadn't done that another political force would have done - perhaps even the Democrat Party if it had been more imaginatively led.Looking forward five or ten years it's not too fanciful that some of those now supporting dictatorship will look back nostalgically on Yingluck's government.Remember that she and her brother shared most of the values of the unelected elites and their Sino Thai middle class backers.The risk now is that they will lose much more than would have been the case if they had been less myopic and agreed on a historic compromise in which Thaksin would have had his influence curbed but the Thai people given the chances to choose their own government without interference from the military or the courts.

Edited November 17, 2014 by jayboy

[Robby nz]

So, why do you think that the people in the North-East and North will suddenly vote differently?

Will they not just elect a new Thaksin minded leader?

And what was the whole purpose of the coup?

Whatever will happen, non-democratic principles are necessary to prevent the people from voting for the same old leaders.

No Kris democratic principals are needed to prevent the same old crooked leaders from ever standing.

The answer Kris to why people would vote differently may lie in why they voted for PT last time.

To start with there was the loyalty to Tkaksin which will still be there in some cases, however in others that loyalty may well be to his money. Like the leaders who became multi millionaires from the 2010 riots.

Then there was the policies, principal among them the rice pledging scheme which has now left the poor, the people in general deeper in debt than ever before. This along with the debt it has left the country in. Many will understand this and see where the blame lies for their debt situation.

That scheme or another of its kind will never be allowed to be repeated so that will not be an incentive to vote for PT or its reincarnation.

Then there was coercion (fear) in the form of village heads who forced the people of their villages to vote as told. This was documented as the village heads being told the village fund would be discontinued if the vote from their area did not go the correct way.

Then there was the anti Dem vote which was inspired by lies and hate, which we see continued even on the pages of this site.

There was the fact that other parties were prevented from campaigning in the north and northeast even to the extent of one of the Dems campaigners being killed.

Now if we look at more recent developments say for instance the 4 By-elections that were held during the PT tenure we see that 3 out of the 4 were won by the Dems, including Don Muang that PT considered a safe seat, which was won by a swing of over 12%.

The only By-election PT won was the seat of Yinglucks sister (coming back from a 5 year suspension) who won by a reduced majority, less votes even than her driver got in the general election.

Then there was the BKK mayoral election.

PT have not made themselves popular with farmers for failing to make provision for payments when they dissolved parliament, even though PT have attempted to divert the blame, farmers know why they were not paid as they should have been and will in a lot of cases not be inclined to trust those who have blatantly lied to them.

Another example of the PT decline is the electorate in which I live which had a PT MP, after he was elected he never visited the electorate nor could he be contacted, he only ever turned up in parliament for one or two important votes where his vote was needed, but he maintained a bully boy group here who strutted around like they owned the place.

This did not endear him to the people, he and they have gone now as is the fear of them.

Tell us, has education improved during the PT administration, health services, power distribution and security, has road and rail improved ? These are things that people see in there everyday lives and hope those they vote into power will do something about.

Another big difference since the last general election is the increase in the use of social media which gets news and information out to people who previously had to rely on what their local community radio and TV wanted to tell them, these sources were in many cases run by political entities.

Sure there will still be some loyalty and PT, or their reincarnation will work on the hate as much as possible but given a level playing field with all parties able to present their policies and an election without anyone looking over voters shoulders things would be very different.

Now tell us why you think a PT or a Thaksin party would win an election.

Because on a level playing field they will get more votes. it is as simple as that. The Thai electorate are not stupid, and they understand what the Bangkok elite/ military/ royalist (feudal) interest groups have done yet again ( 3 times this century?) in overthrowing the government which they elected, and seizing power. As I said, on a level playing field they will again elect a Red Government, if I can use a generic term to describe their choice.Therefore it follows that the current Junta will ensure that there is not a level playing field. It remains to be seen whether or not they can pull off this trick, as I said, the Thai electorate are not stupid.

Once again we see the lie of the BKK elite ETC being thrown in, part of the lies that PT needs to get anywhere near the seat of power.

And royalist, I guarantee you that most people in this country, including the north and north east have a picture of the king and others in the royal family in their homes. Fiercely loyal to the royal family.

The playing field can only be leveled from where it was and this can only be to the disadvantage of those who would cheat or subvert the system.

Without the hate, intimidation and fear the reds have no chance.

I gave you valid reasons why PT will not reemerge, here are some more.

As you say the electorate are not stupid and they have seen the promises of the PT administration dissolve into a debt burden they have never known before.

They have seen that they once again had to pay 30b at the hospital which the Dems made free.

They have seen that they once again have to pay for school books and uniforms which were free under the Dems while their kids may or may not have got tablets in exchange.

[DaffyDuck]

Actually I did not come up with that very appropriate nickname, one of the other TV members did, I just use it because the hat fits.

Well, it's hilariously appropriate, so thanks for introducing me to it, and kudos to whatever otter member coined ThaiRouge.

If everyone who thought he was a troll put him on their ignore list he would be directing his troll posts at other trolls and/or genuine Shin/red supporters. Bit of a waste of time for him to post then, as he is only looking for "bites".

Seems every Thailand forum has a (single) handful of that type - kinda funny that they always somehow believe they are in the majority.

In fact, the absolute silence originating from the ThaiRouge is pretty much sufficient evidence how much of a fringe (albeit loud and violent) they were originally, and that once deprived of Shin money, their spoutings and support have virtually dried up and evaporated. Poof!

As to forum opinion I'm not sure you are right but in any event I'm not sure whether it is indicative of anything.

As to the relative silence of the redshirts I agree with you.There have been some interesting articles on line on the reasons for this.I wouldn't assume however that this is because the movement has evaporated.One of the most difficult lessons for some foreigners to grasp is that with the massive changes in Thai society in the last twenty years and the consequent decline in deferential behaviour, Thaksin merely was the catalyst, one who took advantage of a newly politicised majority.If he hadn't done that another political force would have done - perhaps even the Democrat Party if it had been more imaginatively led.Looking forward five or ten years it's not too fanciful that some of those now supporting dictatorship will look back nostalgically on Yingluck's government.Remember that she and her brother shared most of the values of the unelected elites and their Sino Thai middle class backers.The risk now is that they will lose much more than would have been the case if they had been less myopic and agreed on a historic compromise in which Thaksin would have had his influence curbed but the Thai people given the chances to choose their own government without interference from the military or the courts.

Good analysis - the irony is that if Thaksin had not decided to flee the charges against him, he would most likely never have done a single day in jail, no would still be PM to this day. His cowardice caused his fall, more than nothing else.

In that respect, I give Yingluk massive points for actually having come back to Thailand after her trip to visit her brother.

All things considered, Yingluk wasn't so bad, but her government was hurt by the ties to her brother (not to mention the absolute butthead idiots she had in her cabinet, which could have prevented the coup, but essentially forced Prayuth's hand). Ultimately, though, Thaksin pissed off the wrong person, no endorsed the wrong person.

While the Thaksin 'threat' is certainly not over, he has largely been neutered. Heck, we haven't even heard from his legal lapdog, Robert Amsterdam, in a while.

[kriswillems]

So, why do you think that the people in the North-East and North will suddenly vote differently?

Will they not just elect a new Thaksin minded leader?

And what was the whole purpose of the coup?

Whatever will happen, non-democratic principles are necessary to prevent the people from voting for the same old leaders.

No Kris democratic principals are needed to prevent the same old crooked leaders from ever standing.

The answer Kris to why people would vote differently may lie in why they voted for PT last time.

To start with there was the loyalty to Tkaksin which will still be there in some cases, however in others that loyalty may well be to his money. Like the leaders who became multi millionaires from the 2010 riots.

Then there was the policies, principal among them the rice pledging scheme which has now left the poor, the people in general deeper in debt than ever before. This along with the debt it has left the country in. Many will understand this and see where the blame lies for their debt situation.

That scheme or another of its kind will never be allowed to be repeated so that will not be an incentive to vote for PT or its reincarnation.

Then there was coercion (fear) in the form of village heads who forced the people of their villages to vote as told. This was documented as the village heads being told the village fund would be discontinued if the vote from their area did not go the correct way.

Then there was the anti Dem vote which was inspired by lies and hate, which we see continued even on the pages of this site.

There was the fact that other parties were prevented from campaigning in the north and northeast even to the extent of one of the Dems campaigners being killed.

Now if we look at more recent developments say for instance the 4 By-elections that were held during the PT tenure we see that 3 out of the 4 were won by the Dems, including Don Muang that PT considered a safe seat, which was won by a swing of over 12%.

The only By-election PT won was the seat of Yinglucks sister (coming back from a 5 year suspension) who won by a reduced majority, less votes even than her driver got in the general election.

Then there was the BKK mayoral election.

PT have not made themselves popular with farmers for failing to make provision for payments when they dissolved parliament, even though PT have attempted to divert the blame, farmers know why they were not paid as they should have been and will in a lot of cases not be inclined to trust those who have blatantly lied to them.

Another example of the PT decline is the electorate in which I live which had a PT MP, after he was elected he never visited the electorate nor could he be contacted, he only ever turned up in parliament for one or two important votes where his vote was needed, but he maintained a bully boy group here who strutted around like they owned the place.

This did not endear him to the people, he and they have gone now as is the fear of them.

Tell us, has education improved during the PT administration, health services, power distribution and security, has road and rail improved ? These are things that people see in there everyday lives and hope those they vote into power will do something about.

Another big difference since the last general election is the increase in the use of social media which gets news and information out to people who previously had to rely on what their local community radio and TV wanted to tell them, these sources were in many cases run by political entities.

Sure there will still be some loyalty and PT, or their reincarnation will work on the hate as much as possible but given a level playing field with all parties able to present their policies and an election without anyone looking over voters shoulders things would be very different.

Now tell us why you think a PT or a Thaksin party would win an election.

Because they have ever tried a coup and they've even rewritten the constitution after that.

Things like that would never happen again.

But in no time we were back to the same old story.

There's no reason to assume it would be different this time, unless they would use non-democratic principles to just prevent people from voting for the PT or to make their votes count less than they did before.

We've to remember that the biggest provinces are in Isaan and that the people in Isaan will vote for Isaan minded parties, whether they are related to Thaksin or not.

This means a loss of power of the BKK elite.

The coup would have been useless.

The motivation for the coup was not only to get Thaksin out. I don't believe that.

The real reason for the coup is that the BKK elite would like to take back the power.

You seems to assume that Thaksin was a corrupt, power hungry, super rich guy. I think that assumption is correct.

You also you seem to assume the army generals and people in the NLA are less rich, corrupt and power hungry. I think that assumption is not correct.

Edited November 17, 2014 by kriswillems

[robblok]

So what do you get charged with for not allowing freedom of the press? or interfering in pending serious criminal charges? Or nepotism?

The fact of the matter is that rice schemes in the past have all lost money; But Ms Y lost the most. It would be interesting to see what the defence is?

I wonder if there is a poll in the offering on what should happen?

The press can only print positive on the case, and cannot report on anyone that has an opinion other than the Government view.

And doesn't her lawyer usually leave bags of money lying around the court rooms? Or was that a one off?

Chris YL lied and did not budget for it or tell people how much was lost. People comming out with figures (that were even low knowing whatvwe know now.) Were bullied and transferred.

Totally different from a rice program thais budgetted from the central budget and was transparent.

Im amazed she is not charged, i start to believe they never want to charge anyone for anything so corruption on either side stays proffit able.

[Baerboxer]

Some of you seem to think Yingluck was some great statesman and politician; are we talking about the same person? If memory serves me right she was never in Parliament, unable to debate and hold her own and had a poor grasp of the issues and arguments. The only thing she had going for her was a pretty face and keeping it in the family?

Well she also had an electoral mandate. Many here don't like that, so they ignore it, and concentrate on manufacturing excises for the military coup. Over to you Ginjag!

And she lost that mandate through acting illegally, just like he brother who in reality was ruling through her.

So the large minority that voted for her may not be so large next time.

[jdinasia]

What a big show.

- voting for something that is a fact already.

- voting.... while Thai people will not get the chance to vote.

- voting by the NLA which nobody ever voted for.

Who cares? Why do they do this?

Do they believe anyone will care about this? - I mean, everyone can see it's totally absurd....

the country has to learn, especially the " clever thais" up north, that they cant elect corrupt criminals just because "they are there and want to"

In a democracy the people can elect who they want, even the "Corrupt criminals" from the yellow side if they so desire, providing they are approved candidates.

If, in a democracy, you choose to elect the corrupt and they get caught ; you don't get to cry when they are removed from office and sentenced to jail. If the democracy is so flawed that this cannot happen, you should expect something to happen.

[Fat Haggis]

Has anyone not considered that Yingluck might not wish to run for office again? She would be under a huge spotlight and personally I doubt that she'd relish that much attention on her life again.

so what does a 5 year or even lifetime ban accomplish if she no longer desires to remain in politics ?

A lot of time and effort just to ban someone from politics for 5 years and how much of their budget has been used to pursue her into the bargain when there's still outstanding cases from years back?

[JAG]

So, why do you think that the people in the North-East and North will suddenly vote differently?

Will they not just elect a new Thaksin minded leader?

And what was the whole purpose of the coup?

Whatever will happen, non-democratic principles are necessary to prevent the people from voting for the same old leaders.

No Kris democratic principals are needed to prevent the same old crooked leaders from ever standing.

The answer Kris to why people would vote differently may lie in why they voted for PT last time.

To start with there was the loyalty to Tkaksin which will still be there in some cases, however in others that loyalty may well be to his money. Like the leaders who became multi millionaires from the 2010 riots.

Then there was the policies, principal among them the rice pledging scheme which has now left the poor, the people in general deeper in debt than ever before. This along with the debt it has left the country in. Many will understand this and see where the blame lies for their debt situation.

That scheme or another of its kind will never be allowed to be repeated so that will not be an incentive to vote for PT or its reincarnation.

Then there was coercion (fear) in the form of village heads who forced the people of their villages to vote as told. This was documented as the village heads being told the village fund would be discontinued if the vote from their area did not go the correct way.

Then there was the anti Dem vote which was inspired by lies and hate, which we see continued even on the pages of this site.

There was the fact that other parties were prevented from campaigning in the north and northeast even to the extent of one of the Dems campaigners being killed.

Now if we look at more recent developments say for instance the 4 By-elections that were held during the PT tenure we see that 3 out of the 4 were won by the Dems, including Don Muang that PT considered a safe seat, which was won by a swing of over 12%.

The only By-election PT won was the seat of Yinglucks sister (coming back from a 5 year suspension) who won by a reduced majority, less votes even than her driver got in the general election.

Then there was the BKK mayoral election.

PT have not made themselves popular with farmers for failing to make provision for payments when they dissolved parliament, even though PT have attempted to divert the blame, farmers know why they were not paid as they should have been and will in a lot of cases not be inclined to trust those who have blatantly lied to them.

Another example of the PT decline is the electorate in which I live which had a PT MP, after he was elected he never visited the electorate nor could he be contacted, he only ever turned up in parliament for one or two important votes where his vote was needed, but he maintained a bully boy group here who strutted around like they owned the place.

This did not endear him to the people, he and they have gone now as is the fear of them.

Tell us, has education improved during the PT administration, health services, power distribution and security, has road and rail improved ? These are things that people see in there everyday lives and hope those they vote into power will do something about.

Another big difference since the last general election is the increase in the use of social media which gets news and information out to people who previously had to rely on what their local community radio and TV wanted to tell them, these sources were in many cases run by political entities.

Sure there will still be some loyalty and PT, or their reincarnation will work on the hate as much as possible but given a level playing field with all parties able to present their policies and an election without anyone looking over voters shoulders things would be very different.

Now tell us why you think a PT or a Thaksin party would win an election.

Because on a level playing field they will get more votes. it is as simple as that. The Thai electorate are not stupid, and they understand what the Bangkok elite/ military/ royalist (feudal) interest groups have done yet again ( 3 times this century?) in overthrowing the government which they elected, and seizing power. As I said, on a level playing field they will again elect a Red Government, if I can use a generic term to describe their choice.Therefore it follows that the current Junta will ensure that there is not a level playing field. It remains to be seen whether or not they can pull off this trick, as I said, the Thai electorate are not stupid.

Once again we see the lie of the BKK elite ETC being thrown in, part of the lies that PT needs to get anywhere near the seat of power.

And royalist, I guarantee you that most people in this country, including the north and north east have a picture of the king and others in the royal family in their homes. Fiercely loyal to the royal family.

The playing field can only be leveled from where it was and this can only be to the disadvantage of those who would cheat or subvert the system.

Without the hate, intimidation and fear the reds have no chance.

I gave you valid reasons why PT will not reemerge, here are some more.

As you say the electorate are not stupid and they have seen the promises of the PT administration dissolve into a debt burden they have never known before.

They have seen that they once again had to pay 30b at the hospital which the Dems made free.

They have seen that they once again have to pay for school books and uniforms which were free under the Dems while their kids may or may not have got tablets in exchange.

I am surprised that you can put the PT victory in the last election down to "hate, intimidation and fear", despite that election being widely accepted, both within Thailand and internationally as free and fair . Yet you dismiss all comment on the involvement of the Bangkik "elite" powerbase in the overthrow of that government as "lies"!

I agree that mosr households in the north and northeast will display a portrait of the King, and they respect the person and institution of the monarch. That does not mean they respect or accept the whole feudal system which seeks to use perceived patronage to overthrow democracy and seize and monoploise power.

Edited November 17, 2014 by JAG

[Robby nz]

So, why do you think that the people in the North-East and North will suddenly vote differently?

Will they not just elect a new Thaksin minded leader?

And what was the whole purpose of the coup?

Whatever will happen, non-democratic principles are necessary to prevent the people from voting for the same old leaders.

No Kris democratic principals are needed to prevent the same old crooked leaders from ever standing.

The answer Kris to why people would vote differently may lie in why they voted for PT last time.

To start with there was the loyalty to Tkaksin which will still be there in some cases, however in others that loyalty may well be to his money. Like the leaders who became multi millionaires from the 2010 riots.

Then there was the policies, principal among them the rice pledging scheme which has now left the poor, the people in general deeper in debt than ever before. This along with the debt it has left the country in. Many will understand this and see where the blame lies for their debt situation.

That scheme or another of its kind will never be allowed to be repeated so that will not be an incentive to vote for PT or its reincarnation.

Then there was coercion (fear) in the form of village heads who forced the people of their villages to vote as told. This was documented as the village heads being told the village fund would be discontinued if the vote from their area did not go the correct way.

Then there was the anti Dem vote which was inspired by lies and hate, which we see continued even on the pages of this site.

There was the fact that other parties were prevented from campaigning in the north and northeast even to the extent of one of the Dems campaigners being killed.

Now if we look at more recent developments say for instance the 4 By-elections that were held during the PT tenure we see that 3 out of the 4 were won by the Dems, including Don Muang that PT considered a safe seat, which was won by a swing of over 12%.

The only By-election PT won was the seat of Yinglucks sister (coming back from a 5 year suspension) who won by a reduced majority, less votes even than her driver got in the general election.

Then there was the BKK mayoral election.

PT have not made themselves popular with farmers for failing to make provision for payments when they dissolved parliament, even though PT have attempted to divert the blame, farmers know why they were not paid as they should have been and will in a lot of cases not be inclined to trust those who have blatantly lied to them.

Another example of the PT decline is the electorate in which I live which had a PT MP, after he was elected he never visited the electorate nor could he be contacted, he only ever turned up in parliament for one or two important votes where his vote was needed, but he maintained a bully boy group here who strutted around like they owned the place.

This did not endear him to the people, he and they have gone now as is the fear of them.

Tell us, has education improved during the PT administration, health services, power distribution and security, has road and rail improved ? These are things that people see in there everyday lives and hope those they vote into power will do something about.

Another big difference since the last general election is the increase in the use of social media which gets news and information out to people who previously had to rely on what their local community radio and TV wanted to tell them, these sources were in many cases run by political entities.

Sure there will still be some loyalty and PT, or their reincarnation will work on the hate as much as possible but given a level playing field with all parties able to present their policies and an election without anyone looking over voters shoulders things would be very different.

Now tell us why you think a PT or a Thaksin party would win an election.

Because they have ever tried a coup and they've even rewritten the constitution after that.

Things like that would never happen again.

But in no time we were back to the same old story.

There's no reason to assume it would be different this time, unless they would use non-democratic principles to just prevent people from voting for the PT or to make their votes count less than they did before.

We've to remember that the biggest provinces are in Isaan and that the people in Isaan will vote for Isaan minded parties, whether they are related to Thaksin or not.

This means a loss of power of the BKK elite.

The coup would have been useless.

The motivation for the coup was not only to get Thaksin out. I don't believe that.

The real reason for the coup is that the BKK elite would like to take back the power.

You seems to assume that Thaksin was a corrupt, power hungry, super rich guy. I think that assumption is correct.

You also you seem to assume the army generals and people in the NLA are less rich, corrupt and power hungry. I think that assumption is not correct.

You really are obsessed with this BKK elite, 'fairytale' as the editor of another publication put it, aren't you.

Issan minded parties ? Do you really believe the people of Issan have benefited from the Yingluck administration ?

Tell me which of the PT politicians is not rich, and the red leaders all with millions, we know this because the ones who were made MP's for their part in the death and destruction of the riots had to declare their assets and the one who has enough to start an airline.

If you add up the combined wealth of the members of the NLA it comes to only a fraction of Thaksins wealth, he is number 6 on the Thai rich list.

Did you not realize that it is a stipulation of membership of the NLC that they are not allowed to enter politics when their job is finished, that's why there are no politicians in there.

[ginjag]

Has anyone not considered that Yingluck might not wish to run for office again? She would be under a huge spotlight and personally I doubt that she'd relish that much attention on her life again.

so what does a 5 year or even lifetime ban accomplish if she no longer desires to remain in politics ?

A lot of time and effort just to ban someone from politics for 5 years and how much of their budget has been used to pursue her into the bargain when there's still outstanding cases from years back?

I have considered, and agree, with one addition, that the 5 year ban should not be the primary target, Substantial payback of monies ---for damages incurred as well as any possible gain-family or otherwise.

A sort of sentence be imposed no matter who she is, along with those who was associated with her.

This is off topic as there will be off topic replies along these grounds. Other politicians guilty of similar charges be dealt with---I mean on cases that are on par with this case.

[Robby nz]

I am surprised that you can put the PT victory in the last election down to "hate, intimidation and fear, despite that election being widely accepted, both within Thailand and internationally as free and fair . Yet you dismiss all comment on the involvement of the Bangkik "elite" powerbase in the overthrow of that government as "lies"!

I agree that mosr households in the north and northeast will display a portrait of the King, and they respect the person and institution of the monarch. That does not mean they respect or accept the whole feudal system which seeks to use perceived patronage to overthrow democracy and seize and monoploise power.

If you were to look at things objectively you wouldn't be surprised at all.

The great lie still being told about Abhisit being a murder was and is the most hateful thing of all.

Then there is the hate that has been generated by the continual reference to the so called BKK elite, which you subscribe to and carry on.

A convenient excuse this BKK elite isn't it, blame them for everything without ever having to identify them.

The people of the north and northeast showed in no uncertain terms that they do not accept attempts to overthrow democracy and seize and monopolise power when they came out along with the rest of the people in opposition to the amnesty bill which would have done just that.

They could see clearly that to forgive serious crimes was an abuse of democracy and an attempt to get a convicted felon back in power and they were having no part of it.

Yes I know they were against Abhisit and Suthep having amnesty but do you really believe they didn't know that it would also have absolved all the corruption, the loss from the rice pledging and everything else that had been stolen from them and the country.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Robby nz

[DaffyDuck]

The real reason for the coup is that the BKK elite would like to take back the power.

You would be incorrect.

[whybother]

Has anyone not considered that Yingluck might not wish to run for office again? She would be under a huge spotlight and personally I doubt that she'd relish that much attention on her life again.

so what does a 5 year or even lifetime ban accomplish if she no longer desires to remain in politics ?

A lot of time and effort just to ban someone from politics for 5 years and how much of their budget has been used to pursue her into the bargain when there's still outstanding cases from years back?

Did you consider that she didn't want to run the first time around, but didn't have a choice?

[mikemac]

Has anyone not considered that Yingluck might not wish to run for office again? She would be under a huge spotlight and personally I doubt that she'd relish that much attention on her life again.

so what does a 5 year or even lifetime ban accomplish if she no longer desires to remain in politics ?

A lot of time and effort just to ban someone from politics for 5 years and how much of their budget has been used to pursue her into the bargain when there's still outstanding cases from years back?

You make a good point Fatty. I would ban her from politics for five years and put her away for five years just to be sure.

Maybe that would make the next generation of corrupt/incompetent/dumb Shins from being set up as a puppet PM.

[JAG]

Has anyone not considered that Yingluck might not wish to run for office again? She would be under a huge spotlight and personally I doubt that she'd relish that much attention on her life again.

so what does a 5 year or even lifetime ban accomplish if she no longer desires to remain in politics ?

A lot of time and effort just to ban someone from politics for 5 years and how much of their budget has been used to pursue her into the bargain when there's still outstanding cases from years back?

You make a good point Fatty. I would ban her from politics for five years and put her away for five years just to be sure.

Maybe that would make the next generation of corrupt/incompetent/dumb Shins from being set up as a puppet PM.

I doubt they would jail her. Nothing to do with guilt or evidence, and they may not care about the reactions from her supporters. Jailing Yingluck would set a precedent. If their "reforms" failed to produce sufficient "happiness" to ensure that their chosen paragon of virtue is elected, and their regime does not survive, then that precedent may lead to them occupying the cells previously housing Yingluck. Whilst those cells would no doubt be fragrant and tastefully furnished, I doubt that they would risk it.

Mind you, a five year ban from politics may be a pointer that they intend to hold an election before the ban is up!

Edited November 17, 2014 by JAG

[Fat Haggis]

I can't see how jailing her benefits anyone either other than those who hate her, but in doing so clears the path to start incarcerating ever single person who was derelict in their duties, and trust me, there is a considerable amount of military personnel who should be following her to prison.

The old NAVSPECWAR Admiral for starters for his many claims about border incursions by Cambodians who were complicit in the BKK attacks if you care to cast your mind back a bit, then his SEALs moonlighting etc etc etc.

Add to this the Army Generals who had their men caught with mil grade weapons and ammo at the height of the protests too.

All derelict in their duty, failing to curb a civil war on the South could be at a push classed in a similar manner.

If you agree that she has to be punished as head if the rice fiasco, then do you not agree that military prrsonnel who at the time were still accountable to the Government who failed in their own duties should not also be held accountable ??

As for seizing her assets it has to be proven that she herself profited from this mahoooosive loss, and again did the NACC not already disclose that' her assets didn't suddenly increase by trillions?

Now, I will get stick for this I'm sure, but the money is gone, but the rice is still there, just where would any assets seized from Yingluck go to ? Back into a system that's still got rotten apples as well as rotten and rotting rice the current Government can't move for love nor money!!

Stop thinking that the money will make a sudden change in everuthing, it's not going to shift the stocks now, write the lot off for now, till they can get the country back on track stop pursuing Yingluck and co and prioritise what's more important for the country , jailing her will not sell the rice nor will it recover the huge losses, but it will, as sure as there's shit on a dog cause bigger issues for the Junta that will see the troubles flare up even more, of that I'd bet my left nut on.

Dont get me wrong in that saying the loss of the rice money is no big deal, of course it is, but it hasnt made Thailand implode, nor has it effected the baht globally, the country is doing what it always does, it's cracking on.

If you want the pound of flesh it's understandable but I do hope that those posted who do, want the very same scrutiny and vigour seen against Yingluck applied to the CEO and board of directors who have mismanaged the flagship airline THAI airways, who have lost more money than the rice scheme !!!!

But I would not expect the NACC to get involved as it's more or less run by the Military going by the amount of current and former Generals sitting on that board.

What's good for the goose lads, is good for the gander, so we will see all the assets of the THAI board be seized to recoup the loss there too? ?

I will not hold my breath on that one !! ?

[JAG]

You won't be alone - not holding your breath that is. And yes, the Yingluck haters will be queing up to give you a rifting! I suspect you won't give a monkey's. ..

[Gunther99]

Jailing Yingluck would set a precedent.

That is good for her, the country, and for setting a precedent.

[DaffyDuck]

All this, would of course, evaporate once Thaksin ceases to be alive. The way I see it, he lives on borrowed time.