Phayao copter crash raises safety concern for remaining same aircraft

[webfact]

Copter crash raises safety concern for remaining same aircraft



BANGKOK: -- The crash of the Bell 212 helicopter that killed nine Army officers yesterday in Phayao province has raised widespread concern in the social network of whether this model of rotorcraft is still safe as one of the victims posted a message on his Facebook just before airborne saying the aircraft was old.

Sergeant Master (first class) Anant Chomchiengkam posted on his Facebook at 7.00 am before joining the team of the deputy commander of the Third Army Region Maj Songpol Thongjin to visit troops at various bases in Phayao and Chiang Rai on Monday.

His message reads “it’s time now to challenge the sky…the cold wind again… old copter.. new pilot…. weather closes…hell door opens….”

He also wrote he was very glad that the deputy commander of the Third Army offered him a hand shake before boarding the aircraft to begin the visit.

The officer was among the nine killed in the fatal crash.

A villager who witnessed the crash yesterday said he heard unusual sound like the copter was choking and then spinning and hitting a tree before crashing into the field.

Bell 212 helicopter had earlier crashed in Kaeng Kracharn national park in Phetburi province on July 24, 2011 killing three senior army officers.

Malfunctioning of the tail rotor was found to be the cause of the crash.

The Army has commissioned the Bell 212 helicopter in services for search and rescue operations with the installation of the lifting slings. It now has about 40 Bell 212 helicopters in use at all army bases across the country.

Meanwhile the Army has set up a committee to investigate the cause.

All the bodies of the officers were contained in coffins covered with national flags and carried in a convoy of army vehicles at noon today from Phayao back to the Third Army headquarters in Phitsanulok for religious ceremony.

The convoy is expected to arrive at Kuhasawan temple this evening where royal cremation ceremony will be held as an honour for the nine officers.

Religious ceremonies will be from today until November 25 when funeral will be held at 4.00 pm at Wat Kuhasawan.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/copter-crash-raises-safety-concern-remaining-aircraft


-- Thai PBS 2014-11-18

[NeverSure]

Hmmmm. I wonder if I would ride in an old helicopter maintained by Thais and flown by a new Thai pilot in bad weather.

Noooooooooo.

[Chao Lao Beach]

Got to be alot of cash to be skimmed off a new chopper deal me thinks.

[mgjackson69]

The age of the aircraft is of much less concern than the maintenance it has received.

[jacky54]

Thais do not practice preventive maintenance they only try to fix something when it has gone wrong. Unfortunately it's too late with all these helicopters.

[jpinx]

The 212 is a solid machine - old tech but in the right hands it's sound. In the wrong hands - poor engineering or poor piloting - no machine is going to last long. Military maintenance is well-known to be inferior to civilian standards for many reasons. Minimum conditions for military flights are always less than for civilian. Thailand sets it's own standards, no comment is needed.

[uel1968]

Thais do not practice preventive maintenance they only try to fix something when it has gone wrong. Unfortunately it's too late with all these helicopters.

I agree 100%,just keep going without the maintenance untill it breaks,TOO LAZY,TO LATE.

[NeverSure]

Thais do not practice preventive maintenance they only try to fix something when it has gone wrong. Unfortunately it's too late with all these helicopters.

I would hate to be the guy who sits on the tail of the chopper at 5,000 feet trying to fix the tail rotor while it's spinning and while the whole chopper is also spinning due to rotor malfunction.

[billd766]

The 212 is a solid machine - old tech but in the right hands it's sound. In the wrong hands - poor engineering or poor piloting - no machine is going to last long. Military maintenance is well-known to be inferior to civilian standards for many reasons. Minimum conditions for military flights are always less than for civilian. Thailand sets it's own standards, no comment is needed.

When I was in the RAF many years ago we had far higher standards than the civil airlines. It was one reason why ex ground crew were always in demand.

I was an aircraft radio fitter and when I got out I worked on a satellitte ground tracking station for a while, moved to a government radio job with Surrey Police then quit that and went into mobile ohone systems for the last 22 working years.

[Commerce]

Sergeant Master (first class) Anant Chomchiengkam posted on his Facebook at 7.00 am before joining the team of the deputy commander of the Third Army Region Maj Songpol Thongjin to visit troops at various bases in Phayao and Chiang Rai on Monday.

His message reads “it’s time now to challenge the sky…the cold wind again… old copter.. new pilot…. weather closes…hell door opens….”

Yeah! I'm sure he posted that on his facebook before the crash. What is more likely is that he posted, "Bell? . How am I supposed to fly an out of date Ink-Jet printer?"

When well maintained, the Bell is one of the most reliable helicopters around, despite age. If he did write what he did, concerning 'old copter' ; 'new pilot, it only goes to show lack of experience...... and as for cold wind and hell door opens, winds are not high at low altitude- especially in Thailand, thus he had fears - if he even wrote such.

For the life of me, I hope Thailand is not going to try to blame such accidents on Western technology...... but then again... what could surprise one less?

Edited November 18, 2014 by Commerce

[X pat]

Scares the hell out of me every time one of them fly's over our house.

[ginjag]

Same aircraft ?? must have had a good welder. think remaining helicopters of this type ???

[ginjag]

Scares the hell out of me every time one of them fly's over our house.

Your safe if it fly's OVER.

[cardinalblue]

Quickly they blame it on the year of the chopper....

One says nothing until a thorough investigation is done...

pilot error, maintenance records, quality review, etc...

CB

[cardinalblue]

Quickly they blame it on the year of the chopper....

One says nothing until a thorough investigation is done...

pilot error, maintenance records, quality review, etc...

CB

[johnno2]

The 212 is a solid machine - old tech but in the right hands it's sound. In the wrong hands - poor engineering or poor piloting - no machine is going to last long. Military maintenance is well-known to be inferior to civilian standards for many reasons. Minimum conditions for military flights are always less than for civilian. Thailand sets it's own standards, no comment is needed.

<deleted>. depends on the country, not the military. military maintenance will replace something if its old because theres no profit line. civilian maintenance costs the company money so they try to get the maximum life out of a component

[jpinx]

The 212 is a solid machine - old tech but in the right hands it's sound. In the wrong hands - poor engineering or poor piloting - no machine is going to last long. Military maintenance is well-known to be inferior to civilian standards for many reasons. Minimum conditions for military flights are always less than for civilian. Thailand sets it's own standards, no comment is needed.

<deleted>. depends on the country, not the military. military maintenance will replace something if its old because theres no profit line. civilian maintenance costs the company money so they try to get the maximum life out of a component

Sorry if I didn't make it clear enough....

.....Thailand sets it's own standards.....

Hope that helps you understand.......

[MJP]

Inflammatory post referring to testicles removed.

[thailiketoo]

Hmmmm. I wonder if I would ride in an old helicopter maintained by Thais and flown by a new Thai pilot in bad weather.

Noooooooooo.

Twenty-nine helicopters have crashed in Afghanistan since January 2009 through mid-September, the records show. Insurgents shot down six helicopters, including one other Chinook, a hulking aircraft that can hold nearly 40 service members.

"It's just a fact of life that helicopters are accident prone," said John Pike, executive director of Globalsecurity.org, a defense policy group.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/military/story/2011-09-27/afghanistan-miltary-helicopter-crashes/50575056/1

In a war zone would you think the top cause of helicopter crashes would be combat or accident? Accidents top cause of helicopter crashes in Afghanistan

[JAG]

A few years ago I went to the display for children's day at Chiang Rai airport. On display was a RTA Huey helicopter, attended by a young soldier. Children swarmed over every inch of the helo, pushing buttons, pulling levers and twidling nobs.

At the end of the day the aircrew appeared, shooed the children away, fired up the engine and beetled off. The only preflight checks appeared to be adjusting their sunglasses!

[jpinx]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Hmmmm. I wonder if I would ride in an old helicopter maintained by Thais and flown by a new Thai pilot in bad weather.

Noooooooooo.

Twenty-nine helicopters have crashed in Afghanistan since January 2009 through mid-September, the records show. Insurgents shot down six helicopters, including one other Chinook, a hulking aircraft that can hold nearly 40 service members.

"It's just a fact of life that helicopters are accident prone," said John Pike, executive director of Globalsecurity.org, a defense policy group.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/military/story/2011-09-27/afghanistan-miltary-helicopter-crashes/50575056/1

In a war zone would you think the top cause of helicopter crashes would be combat or accident? Accidents top cause of helicopter crashes in Afghanistan

It's not always what it seems. "Accidents" probably includes those wrecks caused by operational needs causing the crew to push the aircraft too hard.

A few years ago I went to the display for children's day at Chiang Rai airport. On display was a RTA Huey helicopter, attended by a young soldier. Children swarmed over every inch of the helo, pushing buttons, pulling levers and twidling nobs.

At the end of the day the aircrew appeared, shooed the children away, fired up the engine and beetled off. The only preflight checks appeared to be adjusting their sunglasses!

Scary stuff but totally believable -- young pilots caught up in the moment of a show and needing to look cool, skipping routines and pushing the envelope -- as many crashes at airshows will testify

[wabothai]

I think maintenance is not a thing being taught and therefore not part of the mind set. In the old days there was nothing to maintain.

[aircarepilot]

It will take awhile for the investigation to be complete, and hopefully it will be honest and frank about what caused or contributed to the crash. In the US Army, they always have a thorough investigation, since they want to get to the root of the problem, and hopefully not have a repeat. However, when it comes to pilot error, it seems we in the aviation business, are always doomed to repeat our errors. I have been flying helicopters for over 38 years and have over 15,000 hours as a pilot in helicopters. I have over 5,000 hours in various Bell helicopters, and can say with authority, that if an aircraft is maintained properly according to the manufactures manual, it should be safe to fly. I am currently flying Sikorsky -61 helicopters in Afghanistan that were built in the early sixties, and have been flying them here for the last 6 years. Some of these aircraft have over 40,000 hours plus, but if properly maintained, will probably be flying for another 30 or more years. I will be watching and waiting to hear what caused the crash, but already think maybe a lack of experience and weather played a roll.

[thailiketoo]

I think maintenance is not a thing being taught and therefore not part of the mind set. In the old days there was nothing to maintain.

Bell UH-1H Huey from Vietnam war (1962). Thailand army has 84 of these antiques. How long do you think they would last without maintenance? 40 years? Thai air force has 18 I think. Speaking of maintenance Thailand has had an airforce since 1913. What do you consider the old days?

Edited November 18, 2014 by thailiketoo

[Halion]

Such failures in this country are common place and the root cause lies between the two evils of maintenance and incompetence.

[thailiketoo]

Such failures in this country are common place and the root cause lies between the two evils of maintenance and incompetence.

If it was common place it wouldn't make the news. It is common place anywhere where there are a lot of helicopters. Have you ever been to Thailand?

[rgs2001uk]

Such failures in this country are common place and the root cause lies between the two evils of maintenance and incompetence.

If it was common place it wouldn't make the news. It is common place anywhere where there are a lot of helicopters. Have you ever been to Thailand?

Ah, the difference is, will it be pilot error, or as usual blame in on gnd crew negligence or bad weather.

[jpinx]

Such failures in this country are common place and the root cause lies between the two evils of maintenance and incompetence.

If it was common place it wouldn't make the news. It is common place anywhere where there are a lot of helicopters. Have you ever been to Thailand?

Ah, the difference is, will it be pilot error, or as usual blame in on gnd crew negligence or bad weather.

Bad weather == pilot error -- It's a helicopter - he can land it almost anywhere to avoid bad weather.

[thailiketoo]

Such failures in this country are common place and the root cause lies between the two evils of maintenance and incompetence.

If it was common place it wouldn't make the news. It is common place anywhere where there are a lot of helicopters. Have you ever been to Thailand?

Ah, the difference is, will it be pilot error, or as usual blame in on gnd crew negligence or bad weather.

Bad weather == pilot error -- It's a helicopter - he can land it almost anywhere to avoid bad weather.

Helicopters can't fly upside down. Now if you think about this fact it may answer your question because many pilots are not trained to fly in conditions where they can't see.

In the sky bad weather; on the ground power lines and fog. What happens to an altimeter if the air pressure changes? So can helicopter pilots land almost anywhere? No.

[jpinx]

Assuming the clown pilot has not gone IMC, he can land in any open space and sit it out. I've done that hundreds of times