Govt Approves 210 Km Three-Airports Rail Link

[FangFerang]

Another mega-project pushed through that has no transparency in regards to the awarded contractors, no provable usefulness, and worst -- at a time when cash is short and tempers are simmering.

It is worse than a bad idea. It is worse than a horrible idea.

It is a stupid idea. I am thinking the substandard rice will be paying the Chinese for this one.

[sjaak327]

If the clever commentary of TV's sultans of negativity had been around for the proposals to build the MRT, the BTS and it's extensions, or any of the elevated highways that have helped cope with the chronic traffic congestion strangling this nation, they would be issuing the same smug deprecations, ridiculing the enterprise and vision such ideas represent.

The Bangkok-Rayong corridor has already evolved into a megalopolis, a simple bus ride south on the Bangkok-Trad highway shows this unmistakably. While the resident xenophobes can only focus on sharing space with Russians, the real truth is that such a rail line would serve huge communities of Thais in it's stops along the way, just as the Airport Rail Link freed the residents of Lad Krabang and Samut Phrakan from two hour bus rides into the city.

Within a short time of being built, whole new communities will grow along it's length, and jobs will come with them and Thailand will be stronger for it.

Will there be attendant problems?? Sure there will., In any nation on earth, large and ambitious infrastructure changes cause massive social changes as well but twenty years from now, this project has the potential to have the same game changing, positive affect on the southeast corridor that the BTS has had for Bangkok.

Now, if only they would include the newly announced but as yet un-located Northern and Northeast Bus Terminal into the equation...that would be just about perfect.

Yes it will benefit local commuters more than actual flying passengers.

And that is exactly why the airport rail link doesn't make any sense.

About two weeks ago, I arrived from UTH. Since there was quite a queue at the taxi rank, I decided to take the ARL. Boy what an utter disaster. I needed to get off at Ramkhamhaeng, by the time we got at Huamak the train was so full that we decided to make a run for the doors. We had to literally move people aside to exit the train.

The current setup is not suitable for people that use the airport. So I fully concur with the pessimists.

Edit to add: Before mega money is spent building an ARL to some regional airport that has little usage, one might concentrate on Krungthep where the situation is still far from ideal when public rail transportation is concerned.

Edited November 22, 2014 by sjaak327

[spermwhale]

Replying to Govt Approves 210 Km Three-Airports Rail Link... BECAUSE THE FIRST ONE WAS WORKING SO WELL!

[ratcatcher]

Don't forget the army owns Don Meuang and they rent it out.

Same goes for Utapao.

The army doesn't own Savanaphum.

Maybe i will be accused of hairsplitting here, but Don Mueang International Airport is owned by The Royal Thai Air Force.

U-Tapao International Airport is owned by the Royal Thai Navy.

The Army is the owner of many bases in Bangkok and other close areas.

[whybother]

Is this a light rail project or are we going to have concrete pylons into the sky, costing mega heaps in concrete money , the concept is there, question is the patronage ,has any studies, research been done , Thailand's love affair with the car proved the downfall of the one to swampy, plus shoddy workmanship and poor design , so make sure that all the I are dotted and the T crossed or is this another white elephant in the making and some hair brained idea that just materialized out of thin air

Light rail is for urban environments. This will be a continuation of the current airport link.

The only downfall of the current line is the lack of maintenance and the infrequency of the "express" trains. Other than that, it's been a huge success.

I wish they would put these trains between all Thailand's major cities.

I would not call express trains' schedule "infrequency". That's since it's been scrapped.

The express trains that you see now, are charged for, and run city line schedule and stop on every station. They are used as addition to blue line trains during peak hours.

But the express (non stop) service from both Phyathai and Makkasan has been scrapped.

Yes, due to lack of maintenance and parts. But when it was running, frequency was a problem.

[whybother]

I am not knocking the idea of improving connections between Swampy and DMK, but I am not sure how much benefit there would be to a connection through Phayathai. I assume, even a through express would stop at Phayathai with a journey time around 40 minutes. The current transfer bus generally takes under an hour because it follows a more direct route. Is knocking 10-15 minutes off the transfer time worth the investment? Recall that the BTS green line extension to Saphan Mai will deal with most of the commuter needs in that direction.

Doesn't the bus go on the motorway? If so then the bus goes from DMK south to Din Daeng and the east to BKK. That is what the train would do, except the train doesn't get stuck in traffic.

edit: actually, looking at a map, it might go along Ram Inthra Rd and the outer ring Rd. Either way, it's likely to get stuck in traffic.

Edited November 22, 2014 by whybother

[akampa]

whybother, on 22 Nov 2014 - 11:05, said:

chainarong, on 22 Nov 2014 - 10:50, said:

Is this a light rail project or are we going to have concrete pylons into the sky, costing mega heaps in concrete money , the concept is there, question is the patronage ,has any studies, research been done , Thailand's love affair with the car proved the downfall of the one to swampy, plus shoddy workmanship and poor design , so make sure that all the I are dotted and the T crossed or is this another white elephant in the making and some hair brained idea that just materialized out of thin air

Light rail is for urban environments. This will be a continuation of the current airport link.

The only downfall of the current line is the lack of maintenance and the infrequency of the "express" trains. Other than that, it's been a huge success.

I wish they would put these trains between all Thailand's major cities.

As far as I know the express train is not in service due to lack of passagers ,and having been to Bangkok in the last month it seems true.

[whybother]

whybother, on 22 Nov 2014 - 11:05, said:

chainarong, on 22 Nov 2014 - 10:50, said:

Is this a light rail project or are we going to have concrete pylons into the sky, costing mega heaps in concrete money , the concept is there, question is the patronage ,has any studies, research been done , Thailand's love affair with the car proved the downfall of the one to swampy, plus shoddy workmanship and poor design , so make sure that all the I are dotted and the T crossed or is this another white elephant in the making and some hair brained idea that just materialized out of thin air

Light rail is for urban environments. This will be a continuation of the current airport link.

The only downfall of the current line is the lack of maintenance and the infrequency of the "express" trains. Other than that, it's been a huge success.

I wish they would put these trains between all Thailand's major cities.

As far as I know the express train is not in service due to lack of passagers ,and having been to Bangkok in the last month it seems true.

It's not running due to lack of trains actually. It didn't get many passengers when it was running, but that's not why it's not running now.

When it was running, it was too infrequent for the "express" aspect to be much use.

[Muhendis]

190km to U Ta Pao, thats some serious cash......

with little benefit that I can see

The DM link makes sense

Brilliant strategy. All the Russians go to Bangkok instead of Pats

[DP25]

I am not knocking the idea of improving connections between Swampy and DMK, but I am not sure how much benefit there would be to a connection through Phayathai. I assume, even a through express would stop at Phayathai with a journey time around 40 minutes. The current transfer bus generally takes under an hour because it follows a more direct route. Is knocking 10-15 minutes off the transfer time worth the investment? Recall that the BTS green line extension to Saphan Mai will deal with most of the commuter needs in that direction.

The main purpose of the line isn't for transfers between the two airports. That will be like 1% of traffic. It is for people all along the line that need to go Don Muang or someplace between Phaya Thai and Don Muang. Millions of people live in that area and they don't have express buses going anywhere, they are stuck in the middle of traffic.

These lines are general purpose mass transit lines that terminate at airports. They are getting two functions in one.

[whybother]

Well it started off with good frequency - every 15 min, but there was rarely any passenger on it. Then they tried to add Phyathai (which they should have done from day one) for Express, and it fared a little better, but instead of merging the 2 express lines into one with stop in Makkasan and continuing to Phyathai, they continued to make major losses by running them separately. In the meantime the checkin counters closed at Makkasan, as they had only 1-2 customers per day on average. Instead of making a tunnel between Makkasan and Petchaburi station they made a long bridge, which passengers hate to use with all the bags, so that didn't revive Makkasan station as hoped for, finally they ran out of City trains, and had to scrap Express line to use trains on the profitable service.

I know that it says that Express service has been "temporarily suspended" I do not expect it back anytime soon, if ever. Even trains and website of ARL had the map redrawn to only show 1 line. By not refurbishing red trains, they are obviously keeping all options open, but in reality - Express trains were a badly conceived experiment that didn't work out, and never will - people are prepared to pay a little more for more comfort when difference in service is substantial, but they are not willing to pay 3-4x more to profit 4 minutes, and even that's useless when city train ran every 12 minutes and express just once an hour.

So I agree that frequency eventually killed it (they would have to scrap it one day with or without city trains running out of parts), but that was just the last chapter in a book of mistakes that started the first day system started being planned for, compounded by the series of errors done by the ARL management.

A great study material on how NOT to run a transport company.

I thought the express started with 30 minute intervals from Makkasan, and then went to hourly intervals from each of Phaya Thai and Makkasan.

http://travelhappy.info/bangkok/bangkok-airports-express-train-link-now-open-%E2%80%93-is-it-better-than-taking-a-taxi/

[BSJ]

I don't see any merit in running trains to Outapao from Swampy. Outapao is just not worth the expense. DM to Swampy and the existing none running link to the city make sense....even if the none running train comes back in a different guise.

[sjaak327]

@tomazbodner

No my complaint isn't about trains being full. It is hardly surprising they are considering the frequency. It doesn't work out well for SRT either as they still loose money operating the line.

My point is that as a service from or to BKK it fails as luggage isn't properly dealt with and as a feeder service the frequency is the biggest problem.

So it's not ideal for either.

The train I was one was actually an express carriage which has a different seating configuration as the city line trains.

Long story short, the ARL is a loosing operation that with only three years of service has operational problems.

I have no objection to Payathai - Dmk I do believe the extension towards Pattaya has corruption written all over it.

Why not provide residents of Bangkapi and Minburi with access to trains first ?

Anyway comparing it to Hong Kong's air rail link is ludicrous as that one actually makes sense, the ARL in Krung Thep doesn't.

Edited November 22, 2014 by sjaak327

[BritTim]

I am not knocking the idea of improving connections between Swampy and DMK, but I am not sure how much benefit there would be to a connection through Phayathai. I assume, even a through express would stop at Phayathai with a journey time around 40 minutes. The current transfer bus generally takes under an hour because it follows a more direct route. Is knocking 10-15 minutes off the transfer time worth the investment? Recall that the BTS green line extension to Saphan Mai will deal with most of the commuter needs in that direction.

The main purpose of the line isn't for transfers between the two airports. That will be like 1% of traffic. It is for people all along the line that need to go Don Muang or someplace between Phaya Thai and Don Muang. Millions of people live in that area and they don't have express buses going anywhere, they are stuck in the middle of traffic.

These lines are general purpose mass transit lines that terminate at airports. They are getting two functions in one.

Again, my point would be that there is an existing line that goes from Phayathai to Mo Chit with plans to extend via Laksi to Saphan Mai. The vast majority of the 99% of traffic that you cite can be met without the duplication of a competing service going in pretty much the same direction.

[moonwolf]

I like to travel by train so this would be a great project to see completed.

Don't think I will live long enough to see it mind you.

Still waiting for the first DMK link to be completed, and the last airport link look long enough and was late and last time I tried it the train was late and nearly sure I could have walk the last part of the trip quicker.

The car will always beat this type of travel

[pomchop]

Maybe a good start would be to link DMK and BKK first? Not sure of the advantages of adding in Rayong if it's charter flights for Pattaya. Why would charter pax need a rail to DMK or BKK??

Maybe a good start would be to link DMK and BKK first?

"...the 20-kilometre rail link between Phayathai BTS Station and Don Mueang Airport will be built first,..."

What a good idea pomchop.

Get on with the dmk to bkk link FIRST rather than announce all three links as one package. It appears that the third link is far from a done deal...as in "IF we are to develop...."

"We have to discuss the matter with the Navy because we have to study the area closely if we are to develop U Ta Pao Airport a fully-commercial airport,"

[teatree]

Is this a light rail project or are we going to have concrete pylons into the sky, costing mega heaps in concrete money , the concept is there, question is the patronage ,has any studies, research been done , Thailand's love affair with the car proved the downfall of the one to swampy, plus shoddy workmanship and poor design , so make sure that all the I are dotted and the T crossed or is this another white elephant in the making and some hair brained idea that just materialized out of thin air

I assume you are talking about the express line when you question the patronage. I used to regularly see trains roll in and not one passenger was on board.

However, the same does not apply to the Cityline which in terms of numbers of passengers is a roaring success. The current figures will only increase as the service improves as new trains are introduced and as the area between Suvarnabumi and BKK is developed.

[teatree]

Is this a light rail project or are we going to have concrete pylons into the sky, costing mega heaps in concrete money , the concept is there, question is the patronage ,has any studies, research been done , Thailand's love affair with the car proved the downfall of the one to swampy, plus shoddy workmanship and poor design , so make sure that all the I are dotted and the T crossed or is this another white elephant in the making and some hair brained idea that just materialized out of thin air

Light rail is for urban environments. This will be a continuation of the current airport link.

The only downfall of the current line is the lack of maintenance and the infrequency of the "express" trains. Other than that, it's been a huge success.

I wish they would put these trains between all Thailand's major cities.

I would not call express trains' schedule "infrequency". That's since it's been scrapped.

The express trains that you see now, are charged for, and run city line schedule and stop on every station. They are used as addition to blue line trains during peak hours.

But the express (non stop) service from both Phyathai and Makkasan has been scrapped.

Yes, due to lack of maintenance and parts. But when it was running, frequency was a problem.

The only frequency problem was there was a frequency at all.

The express was totally uneeded (how much faster was it? 10 min?) and people voted with their feet and didn't use it even when they were running 4 trains to and from both Makkasan and Phaya Thai every hour AND when they cut the fare price in half.

Far better to have extra long trains and have 1st class compartments where a person with lots of luggage can sit.

[Langsuan Man]

The current rail line between Bangkok and Rayong already splits off so that freight trains can go to the Navy pier in Sattahip and passenger and freight trains can go to Rayong

Since all the plans for "upgrading" the current rail network indicates that the old routing is going to be maintained, just upgraded, there is still going to be some major construction to divert from the current rail route to add Utapo to the route

Edited November 23, 2014 by Langsuan Man

[Jessi]

U Ta Pao is in Chonburi Provence on the border with Rayong. Might be a good idea if they check the location first.

Check for yourself. They know where it is.

https://www.google.co.th/maps/@12.666188,101.0126891,12z?hl=en

That map is wrong drive down and take a look

[whybother]

U Ta Pao is in Chonburi Provence on the border with Rayong. Might be a good idea if they check the location first.

Check for yourself. They know where it is.

https://www.google.co.th/maps/@12.666188,101.0126891,12z?hl=en

That map is wrong drive down and take a look

Is google streetview wrong too?

https://www.google.co.th/maps/@12.6930356,100.9849321,3a,75y,79.41h,65.93t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s_DjHHZpkn4wL1jcWFRpzuA!2e0?hl=en

It's a google conspiracy to make people think that Utapao airport is in Rayong and not Chonburi. They've already suckered one reporter.

Edited November 23, 2014 by whybother

[whybother]

U Ta Pao is in Chonburi Provence on the border with Rayong. Might be a good idea if they check the location first.

Check for yourself. They know where it is.

https://www.google.co.th/maps/@12.666188,101.0126891,12z?hl=en

That map is wrong drive down and take a look

Is google streetview wrong too?

https://www.google.co.th/maps/@12.6930356,100.9849321,3a,75y,79.41h,65.93t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s_DjHHZpkn4wL1jcWFRpzuA!2e0?hl=en

It's a google conspiracy to make people think that Utapao airport is in Rayong and not Chonburi. They've already suckered one reporter.

Another place that "got it wrong". http://www.world-airport-codes.com/thailand/utapao-7320.html

[mike324]

What Thailand also needs is to integrate BTS, MRT, and Bus systems with fare reductions if you use two or three systems within X amount of time. Like how they do it in Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore.

Since they outsource all these to different agencies and private companies, this is hurting the citizens in the long run. Basic efficient transportation such as MRT/BTS are still too expensive for the low income.

BTS and MRT are already set to merge their ticketing systems, and are using the same format (Mifare) cards already.

ARL is also using Mifare but is ran by a state firm, so there could be more obstacles in mergers.

As for the buses, boats, etc., currently they have no electronic tickets, and would require some serious upgrade of the system before they could join this scheme, like, say, Octopus in HK.

Note that these places you mentioned had train systems far longer than Bangkok, and they did not have integrated systems for a very long time. In HK even today Octopus can't be used for some routes, as they are operated by different companies...

I know those countries have train systems far longer than Bangkok, but you would expect a country who is building a train system in this day and time will think of integrating these systems, the technology is not new.

I also do know the main problem is the different companies operating the BTS and MRT hence they have different card systems, but it would not have been hard to get the government to require the same card systems. Yes its more complicated than that due to different company operating the BTS and MRT, and they will have problems with profits, etc etc if its an integrated system.

Just poor government planning from the beginning. I think the BTS Rabbit card will be the de facto card in the future as many restaurants, 7 -elevens, supermarkets are adopting it as an option for their payment system.

[apalink_thailand]

Maybe a good start would be to link DMK and BKK first? Not sure of the advantages of adding in Rayong if it's charter flights for Pattaya. Why would charter pax need a rail to DMK or BKK??

Agree. This makes little sense if the Russians are actually flying into Rayong in the first place (the Pattaya Taxi boys will be rubbing their hands together for sure). As for those of us who live in the country and make occasional trips to the beach, you would definetly want a car to get around in Rayong. The U-Tapao airport is miles from anything. Why don't they run a train to Hua Hin instead? That road trip is a nightmare on weekends and you can still get around HH fairly easily without a car. Then again, my preference would be a high speed car ferry/cat doing Bangkok/HH/Pattaya. At least you can bring your car if you want to and avoid the traffic and the long drive.

[apalink_thailand]

The current rail line between Bangkok and Rayong already splits off so that freight trains can go to the Navy pier in Sattahip and passenger and freight trains can go to Rayong

Since all the plans for "upgrading" the current rail network indicates that the old routing is going to be maintained, just upgraded, there is still going to be some major construction to divert from the current rail route to add Utapo to the route

rail.png

I believe that the existing antiquated train system is on narrow gauge rails and would not be able to run the modern high speed trains. It would be a completely new system and probably not used for bulk rail cargo.