You, The Foreigner.....

[sbk]

I think being referred to in the third person by someone who doesn't know you as "farang" is not disrespectful. In our restaurant (which is full of farangs) we will tell the servers "its for the big guy" or "its for the girl with the red hair". Its just an identifier.

However, if one of my husband's family were to refer to me as "farang" instead of by my name (when they well know my name) I would find that disrespectful. In fact, I refused to go to the wedding of people who addressed the envelope to my husband and his farang wife. Not only was it completely unnecessary but quite rude to not even bother to get my name.

I remember years ago being at the funeral of a cousin and the brother of my husband's sister-in-law wai'ed my husband and gave me a head nod. My aunt-in-law smacked him on the arm and said "You wai Na too".

So, it seems to me that it is not only farang who feel the need to enforce polite behavior.

[thaihome]

I think being referred to in the third person by someone who doesn't know you as "farang" is not disrespectful. In our restaurant (which is full of farangs) we will tell the servers "its for the big guy" or "its for the girl with the red hair". Its just an identifier.

However, if one of my husband's family were to refer to me as "farang" instead of by my name (when they well know my name) I would find that disrespectful. In fact, I refused to go to the wedding of people who addressed the envelope to my husband and his farang wife. Not only was it completely unnecessary but quite rude to not even bother to get my name.

I remember years ago being at the funeral of a cousin and the brother of my husband's sister-in-law wai'ed my husband and gave me a head nod. My aunt-in-law smacked him on the arm and said "You wai Na too".

So, it seems to me that it is not only farang who feel the need to enforce polite behavior.

So, do you think the way the invitation was addressed was meant to be disrespectful or an insult? Or could it be that is the way you are actually known and the person who wrote it out just put what you are always referred to?

Is an action really rude if only the receiver perceives it as rude?

But I will say, I also run into situations similar to what you describe at the funeral. There is, particularly among certain type of younger people, a belief that they do not need to accord farangs the same politeness that is drilled into them all their lives. Maybe they feel they can get away with it.

TH

[Plus]

I do not enforce polite behavior, it's not my job, especially if it's directed at me, I just take notice. Some people are not impolite, they are just stupid, or socially blind. Sometimes though I do hear intended disrespect, mostly of childish nature - let me call him "farang" and see if I can get away with it attitude.

[sbk]

I think being referred to in the third person by someone who doesn't know you as "farang" is not disrespectful. In our restaurant (which is full of farangs) we will tell the servers "its for the big guy" or "its for the girl with the red hair". Its just an identifier.

However, if one of my husband's family were to refer to me as "farang" instead of by my name (when they well know my name) I would find that disrespectful. In fact, I refused to go to the wedding of people who addressed the envelope to my husband and his farang wife. Not only was it completely unnecessary but quite rude to not even bother to get my name.

I remember years ago being at the funeral of a cousin and the brother of my husband's sister-in-law wai'ed my husband and gave me a head nod. My aunt-in-law smacked him on the arm and said "You wai Na too".

So, it seems to me that it is not only farang who feel the need to enforce polite behavior.

So, do you think the way the invitation was addressed was meant to be disrespectful or an insult? Or could it be that is the way you are actually known and the person who wrote it out just put what you are always referred to?

Is an action really rude if only the receiver perceives it as rude?

But I will say, I also run into situations similar to what you describe at the funeral. There is, particularly among certain type of younger people, a belief that they do not need to accord farangs the same politeness that is drilled into them all their lives. Maybe they feel they can get away with it.

TH

No, most people know me by my name. We have received a jillion (literally) wedding invitations and those that don't know my name simply put my husband's name and wife. But, usually, they know my name.

This is the only one in the 17 years I have lived here to address it this way.

[steveromagnino]

I'm 1/2 Thai and I get referred to as 'farang' quite often, even by close family friends. Actually even by family from time to time. As do many of my look krueng friends, including some who (unlike me) have only ever lived here. It really isn't that big a deal.

Often it is simply practical; when identifying who wants what at a table to a server, my whole family know exactly who I am, however to explain to the waiter or whatever, they might say, 'farang sung kao pud, chun sung pad Thai etc etc'

in groups, such as when we are entertaining guests, I will frequently refer to the groups at the table to the service staff including talking about my boss from time to time; kon Thai nung doai gun...farang chai hong nun, etc etc. As soon as it is plural then it is easier than going one by one. I still seem to have a job and so I guess no one is offended just yet>! I have friends whose real names I don't know, I have senior colleagues whose nicknames I don't know. I even have a few much older people whose names I don't know. Titles and positions fill in the gaps. yet in the west, this would not be enough.... but here it is.

gwai lo is not offensive according to my cantonese speaking mother, it is merely the word used to describe white people which happens to mean white ghost. She doesn't speak much cantonese anymore and could not think of another suitable word, using Ang Moh would be useless for her, as she doesn't speak Hokkien, and therefore wouldn't use it. If she did, her Cantonese speaking friends would be very very confused.

All attempts to direct how language is spoken here seem to be aimed at avoiding being talked down to. I can assure you all that sometimes people want to talk down to you and belittle you and there are many other ways other than just using the word farang. I could do it in english just using tones and body language just as all of you probably have done in your lives.

If someone is talking down to you, whether they use farang or not then you have an issue. Incidentally, for the most part I think you'll find that just using the word farang is not an indication one way or the other, but certainly some of the time it is. As are many other things THai people say. In particular, I'd guess a fair few of the white men with Thai wives in NZ would be pretty horrified to learn what their wives really think of them. And they don't need to use the word farang either. I'd guess whoever sent that invite to SBK meant to be mean. And she spotted it.

<> Some people are not impolite, they are just stupid, or socially blind.

You choose to get offended by some things, as do I, for instance I find the word Chinaman offensive, and you find the word farang offensive. However, to suggest that Thai people using the word farang in the 3rd person is just impolite, stupid or socially blind is a bit over the top.

BTW....To the people suggesting that we start referring to Thai people as farang (foreigner)...jeez. Learn some Thai, then we can talk a bit more. Farang means white foreigner - you cannot use it on black people, indians, Chinese, Japanese or Thais. That would make life even more confusing. You can start calling Thai people kon Thai, but I suspect you won't manage to offend them.

[Noel]

All attempts to direct how language is spoken here seem to be aimed at avoiding being talked down to. I can assure you all that sometimes people want to talk down to you and belittle you and there are many other ways other than just using the word farang. I could do it in english just using tones and body language just as all of you probably have done in your lives.

Well, in the example I quoted above, it had nothing to do with being talked down to as I was not being directly spoken to.

If I was directly addressed as ‘farang’ by someone who knew my name, then I can assure you they would not be too pleased at my response to them. That is when the verbal gloves would well and truly come off.

As far as I am concerned, if someone who knows my name opts to use ‘farang’ to identify me in the third person in the full knowledge that I am listening and can understand what they are saying, it is little more than a display of contempt.

I do not buy the ‘ignorance’ excuse if I know they have already been told I find it offensive.

Anyone, regardless of in which language they are speaking, openly displaying contempt for me will instintively prompt me to return the ‘compliment’ in spades. If a Thai does not like it when I reply in kind, 'som nam na' applies.

Hmmm, just reading the above back, I did not realise how tetchy I obviously am on this subject...

[sbk]

BTW....To the people suggesting that we start referring to Thai people as farang (foreigner)...jeez. Learn some Thai, then we can talk a bit more. Farang means white foreigner - you cannot use it on black people, indians, Chinese, Japanese or Thais. That would make life even more confusing. You can start calling Thai people kon Thai, but I suspect you won't manage to offend them.

Completely off topic here stevero, but I had to bring it up. My Thai neighbor refers to black people as "farang dum" So, there you go.

[soic]

I've worked and lived in a lot of countries and have accepted and respected the cultures in everyone of them. There is nothing wrong with expecting someone to be nice as well. If names weren't important in Thailand or anywhere else, no one would be given one. Heck, Thais even go so far as to give each other additional short names as well as their legal names. In public, where people don't know my name, nor I know their's, generalities are fine and expected. Family and Friend relationships should be on a different level than general public. I believe that talking to the family and letting them know my feelings was appropriate. I didn't tell them that what they said was WRONG, I just told them how I percieved it and asked if they would call me by my name. They didn't have a problem with it at all and weren't offended. They actually seem to like to call me "kiss" now... It's actually Chris, but I think how they say it is cute. It feels like being a welcome part of the family and like good fellowship amongst our Thai friends to call each other by name. I have a hard time believing that any family member or friend would be offended if asked to call someone by their name. Rudeness, Openess, Acceptance and cultural awareness is a two way exchange.

To individual that said that the people in the Isaan are ignorant, couldn't have been more wrong. I live there and I communicate with many people everyday that I'm home. I find them to be very intelligent. There is knowledge and wisdom in that populace too, I'd be hard pressed to find a "high society diletante" that knows anything about growing rice or raising cattle or able to do half the things that they can do. I've met many Engineers that couldn't change a door knob. Openess and kindness go along way towards acceptance of other cultures. Using the excuse that it's common and normal doesn't change anything, to say that we should have to accept it, because they don't find fault in it, is disrespectful to them as well. They are intelligent people and can understand if you talk to them, explain your feelings and ask them nicely. I find more fault in not being able to share our western differences. If that's unacceptable, let's just all refer to each other as whitey and brownie! No confusion there... what's in a name?

Edited August 17, 2006 by soic

[GoodHeart]

As far as I am concerned, if someone who knows my name opts to use ‘farang’ to identify me in the third person in the full knowledge that I am listening and can understand what they are saying, it is little more than a display of contempt.

I do not buy the ‘ignorance’ excuse if I know they have already been told I find it offensive.

Sheesh, you really need to lighten up. A slow, deliberative re-read of the excellant explanation given to us by steveromagnino [see highlights below] would be in your best interests. As he stated- it's simply a practical aspect of the language.

I'm 1/2 Thai and I get referred to as 'farang' quite often, even by close family friends.

Often it is simply practical; when identifying who wants what at a table to a server, my whole family know exactly who I am, however to explain to the waiter or whatever, they might say, 'farang sung kao pud, chun sung pad Thai etc etc'

in groups, such as when we are entertaining guests, I will frequently refer to the groups at the table to the service staff including talking about my boss from time to time; kon Thai nung doai gun...farang chai hong nun, etc etc. As soon as it is plural then it is easier than going one by one. I still seem to have a job and so I guess no one is offended just yet>!

I remember a farang posted here once about how he and his girlfriend had opened their apartment to a female friend of hers for over two months when the woman had fallen on hard times. He conveyed how his frustration peaked when, after two months had passed, and they still used farang to refer to him in conversation with each other. In that case, yes, it seemed to me his offense was certainly warranted. In fact, that would, in my mind at least, be a good example of his being objectified by them.

But for you, to make a blanket statement that, "if someone who knows my name opts to use ‘farang’ to identify me in the third person in the full knowledge that I am listening.... it is little more than a display of contempt" is simply too black and white for this grey world we inhabit. Especially in light of the cross cultural interactions steveromagnino alluded to.

[Donz]

well depends on your friends too, I call one of my mates abo and he is an aboriginal, known him for many years and we all call him that.

He takes no offense to it but if someone else says it to him he will get offended

[lannarebirth]

I do not enforce polite behavior, it's not my job, especially if it's directed at me, I just take notice. Some people are not impolite, they are just stupid, or socially blind. Sometimes though I do hear intended disrespect, mostly of childish nature - let me call him "farang" and see if I can get away with it attitude.

About a year after I came to Thailand, it was my great good fortune to be invited to live on the estate, and in the home of a Lanna princess here in Chiang Mai. This lady is worldly, elegant, and at all times showed the height of good manners; whether it be a "local" person coming to ask a favor, or an audience with the King and Queen. She treated me as if I were family and took it upon herself to see to my social well being. Toward that end she'd introduce me to provincial governors, former prime ministers, family of the current prime minister, royals, CEO's, high en monks she would fly in and "hi-so" eligible ladies. Whenever I heard her referring to me in the third person, it was always "farang this" and "farang that", but when she turned to introduce me, I was always "meet my friend Khun ___. Just from my own experiences I cannot see how this can be considered derogatory if negative action doesn't accompany it.

[baboon]

Mind you, if you REALLY want to poss them off if you are called Farang inappropriately, call them by the wrong name and upon being corrected tell the person all you ruddy Asians look the same, so what does it matter if you use a different name?

Works every time.

[steveromagnino]

Mind you, if you REALLY want to poss them off if you are called Farang inappropriately, call them by the wrong name and upon being corrected tell the person all you ruddy Asians look the same, so what does it matter if you use a different name?

Works every time.

Brilliant. Make all the people uncomfortable in the vicinity, and reinforce the stereotype that farang can't control their temper and don't have manners.

Somehow I can see lots of times where this is going to backfire.

You are an eye for an eye fight fire with fire kind of person right?!

[Plus]

In Stevero's examples it's clear that they had to use "farang" to quickly identify a person to strangers - something no one gets offended by here.

I also think that Stevero's family members never think of him as a farang as opposed to them Thais - he looks like a farang, he is not a farang, it's a different story. And I also think that it could be an issue if they suddenly started treating him as an alien to the family - i.e really meant it when calling him "farang" in a family circle.

In Lannarebirth's case what else should the lady call him when talking to people who he met for the first time, and probably would never meet again. He was just her guest, not one of her own, certainly not part of a family. He was just another faceless farang to them.

If, however, she chose to call him by his name all the time, that would give him some extra status: "He must be someone important if she talks about him in this way".

Social relations, language, intonation - they are all very subtle things, sometimes I can guess how the speaker feels about someone just by how they pronounce his name, I don't think it's a special skill, everyone has it.

[meemiathai]

That was the entire point I was trying to make. some people on here were alluding to the fact that at no time should a farang ever become bothered by being called a farang. A few of us were drawing the line at relationships and family, saying that family and friends should call us by our names. Others were saying that we shouldn't be offended unless we were being degraded. I wouldn't say degraded, I'd say disrespected.

I do go to extremes at times, but sometimes that's the only way to get a point across.

So when your mother in law and the family first refer to you as farang, they were trying to disrespect you.

Then you corrected them by telling them that IN THAI LANGUAGE, to refer to a farang in a family as a farang is disrespectful.

IT IS NOT UP TO YOU THAI PEOPLE TO DECIDE HOW TO SPEAK YOUR OWN LANGUAGE APPROPRIATELY! IT IS WHAT ME THE FARANG LIKES OR DISLIKES THAT DETERMINES WHAT YOU CAN SPEAK IN YOUR LANGUAGES! BECAUSE ACCORDING TO MY FARANG CULTURE, WE DO NOT USE WORDS THAT WAY!

SO CHANGE YOUR THAI LANGUAGE TO SUIT MY FARANG CULTURE OR I AM GOING TO SHOW YOU SOME FARANG STYLE SACASM

I Like the Caps, it made me quake in my boots! I feel almost chastised. ANYWAY! When my Mother in Law and Sister in Law continued to address me as farang, they didn't know any better. I asked my Thai wife (she and I talk quite often) if she would talk to her Mother and Sister. I told her that when she and I were dating, and for a month or so after the wedding, the farang thing was kind of cute. I asked her if she would talk to her Mother and Sister and ask them to call me by my name. I told her that to be called farang now after so much time together, would be the same as me calling them Thai Ladies. I asked her to ask them to call me by my name.

Only in your world is sarcasm and vulgarity commonplace. For them to continue to call me farang, would have been the same as me asking everyone here to call you what I'm thinking at the moment, and that would be Disrespectful. Thanks for the instruction Mr. Ambassador of Good Will.

I don't know how to say.... I sincerely apologize for any offense caused, soic. It is my stupid way of expressing myself. My words actually weren't exactly directing at you but rather a description of a general situation.

Telling you how to interact with your thai family is defenitely a wrong thing to do of which never comes into my mind. The sole purpose of my posts were in hope of bettering the general farang/thai relation. Clearing the misconceptions.

I might have over-reacted. I always do, as percieved by people.

I will bang my head against the wall 3 times to punish myself.

I will bang my head on the wall 3 times as a punishment.

[meemiathai]

Farang means white foreigner -

May I point out that farang means "white person" only.

An English caucasion in England will still be a "farang".

[meemiathai]

I also think that Stevero's family members never think of him as a farang as opposed to them Thais - he looks like a farang, he is not a farang, it's a different story. And I also think that it could be an issue if they suddenly started treating him as an alien to the family - i.e really meant it when calling him "farang" in a family circle.

You see, it is exactly this way of misunderstanding of the word that has caused all the problems.

This "never think of him as a farang" does not even come to the mind of the person calling him a farang. Calling a family member a farang does NOT mean treating him as an alien to the family.

It is rather the other way round. It is rather that they think that they are close to you enough to trust you not going to easily get upset by the way they speak and behave.

"i.e really meant it when calling him "farang" in a family circle" --- This thing doesn't even exist.

[meemiathai]

I didn't tell them that what they said was WRONG, I just told them how I percieved it and asked if they would call me by my name. They didn't have a problem with it at all and weren't offended.

That is very different and is totally acceptable, reasonable and understandable.

Sorry once again.

[meemiathai]

I think the whole point I was trying to make was - when thais refer to a farang as farang and if you know they are not trying to disrespect you but feel uncomfortable. Just explain to them nicely and I bet most of them will understand and try to call you what you like.

[soic]

I didn't tell them that what they said was WRONG, I just told them how I percieved it and asked if they would call me by my name. They didn't have a problem with it at all and weren't offended.

That is very different and is totally acceptable, reasonable and understandable.

Sorry once again.

No worries! I tend to be defensive of my family and our relationship. I value them more than they or anyone can imagine, though I try my best to express my feelings often.

I still believe that I must stick to my guns though... just because they don't mean harm, and don't mean to be disrespectful, doesn't mean that they can't be told how it sounds to a westerner. There does come a time in a family and friend relationship where bonds should be made. Anyone that has affection or feelings for another shouldn't mind learning and accepting new ways of addressing someone; if that someone is uncomfortable being addressed in general terms. For instance, I call my 4 year old daughter Bink. She tolerates it for the most part, but sometimes she say's, "Daddy, my name is Bianca!" I try to remember and call her that. It's my Ex-wife's and my pet name for her. Though I only say it with love and the best of intentions, should I ignore her request? No! or should I learn from it and call her as she asks? Yes. Should I take offense? Of course not. That is no different with a Thai friend or family member. If they care about me, they should understand my discomfort and call me as I ask. The same goes for others. Being called a white guy isn't bad, it just isn't very comfortable, when I'm amongst my family and friends. I don't mind it when they call me son-in-law, or brother, or friend, or uncle, that's still part of a family.

Relationships and friendships evolve. My wife spent 14 years telling her son to do this and do that, and becoming angry, she never once in 14 years or at least not since he was a baby, ever told him that she loved him. We had behavioral problems with him. I had a long talk with her about that, and I asked her to spend some time talking to him and to tell him how she really felt about him, then to give him a big hug. They hugged and cried for almost an hour, and both felt so different, they have a completely new relationship. I could have accepted that behavior as totally Thai and totally normal for their culture. I didn't... now, you couldn't get my wife or her (our) sons to go back to the old Thai dialogue. They actually enjoy having a loving relationship, it has spilled over into the rest of our immediate family as well. I've caught her mom and sisters hugging each other, and much of the Thai timidity has gone away. We literally sit and talk and laugh for hours. I only speak just a tiny bit of Thai, but we communicate volumes when we're all together. They all make it a point to teach me new words, and believe it or not, though we can't talk each other's language too well, when I call home they fight to get to the phone to say the few words that they do know.

Edited August 17, 2006 by soic

[Tippaporn]

Farang means white foreigner -

May I point out that farang means "white person" only.

An English caucasion in England will still be a "farang".

Brits are "white?" I always thought they were pasty.

[popshirt]

I really like being referred to as farang. I actually see it as a sign of respect. And it usually means I am offered the best seat, served the tastiest food first and generally made to feel very welcome. Of course my Thai family and friends call me by my first name.

[Sing_Sling]

I really like being referred to as farang. I actually see it as a sign of respect. And it usually means I am offered the best seat, served the tastiest food first and generally made to feel very welcome. Of course my Thai family and friends call me by my first name.

And you live where for this extraordinary treatment solely by being called farang.

This is not about being one, it is about being called one at appropriate or inappropriate times.

I have also asked the guys that work for me not to call me farang . . . they now don't - no problem, they understand that it is not nice to be referred to by an anonymous moniker.

[baboon]

Mind you, if you REALLY want to poss them off if you are called Farang inappropriately, call them by the wrong name and upon being corrected tell the person all you ruddy Asians look the same, so what does it matter if you use a different name?

Works every time.

Brilliant. Make all the people uncomfortable in the vicinity, and reinforce the stereotype that farang can't control their temper and don't have manners.

Somehow I can see lots of times where this is going to backfire.

You are an eye for an eye fight fire with fire kind of person right?!

Not when I am making a JOKE!!