US: Cleveland police shoot dead boy, 12, carrying fake gun

[climbertrev1]

The result of a sick society that will not or cannot discourage or prohibit the use off and the carrying of firearms, thus society is on the whole living on a razor edge of fear.

Police offices who were or are perhaps also living on the razor edge of fear,indeed American society it seems has spawned an evil violence motivated society.

To have to make a decision as to whether to shoot or talk with a 12 year old boy should not be a difficult decision to make.

You talk, you do not shoot, you call for backup trained to deal with such a situation.

So yet again we are likely to see yet more outbreaks of wanton needless violence, riots the destruction of both private and public property and general civil disorder. Mad Max is becoming a reality as opposed to fiction I fear in the U .S .

You were not there so you are not informed enough to make a judgement about whether the police were at fault.

I agree that a factor in the decision to shoot was the widespread abundance of firearms in the USA. In the UK one would probably assume the gun was a fake..but in the USA might be safer to assume it was real.

A sad story and a sorry situation. US police officers have to go out shift after shift with the knowledge that the risk of getting shot is very real.

Before I can decide to fairly condemn the police I would like to know more about the incident.

[Thaiready]

Unfortunately, both sides of the US gun control argument are right.

There are too many guns in the USA and they need to be taken out of civilian hands (2nd amendment regarding militias excepted).

If you ban guns, only the criminals will have them.

As a Brit, I didn't even see a gun until I was over eighteen and saw them for the first time on the European mainland.

Therefore I'm a natural supporter of gun control.

But, in the USA it is far too late for that. It should have happened a hundred years ago and would of had a chance of succeding. Now, there are at least five guns for every citizen and even if gun control was brought in, it wouldn't work and the pro-gun mantra would come true.

Personally, instead of trying to control guns, that will work for hundreds of years, they should try and restrict ammunition, which has a shelf life.

Spoken like a True Socialist

[climbertrev1]

there is no minimum age limit to firing a lethal weapon at someone as long as youre able to pull the trigger. He was told to put his hands up but went to his waistband to draw the weapon. He must have known it was a fake so id say he was looking for a darwin award ...12yrs old is old enough to know what he was doing.

A 12 year old is not old enough to be aware of the consequences of his actions.

Sorry but I don't agree with you. A well brought up and sensible kid should have known that a fatal outcome was at least a possibility. Taking on the police with a toy gun was not a sensible course of action. Then again simply owning a fake gun in the USA or anywhere for that matter is also not very sensible.

As a parent I brought my kids up with the knowledge that cooperating with the police is the sensible option...and that having fake real looking guns is just stupid. Particularly in public spaces and especially if you could possibly be percieved as a threat to law enforcement officers.

[F430murci]

there is no minimum age limit to firing a lethal weapon at someone as long as youre able to pull the trigger. He was told to put his hands up but went to his waistband to draw the weapon. He must have known it was a fake so id say he was looking for a darwin award ...12yrs old is old enough to know what he was doing.

A 12 year old is not old enough to be aware of the consequences of his actions.

I certainly was. When I was growing up, we handled guns all the time, but were not stupid enough to point them at anyone. A 7 year old child is a different story, but a 12 year old should be old enough to realize what he is doing.

No, UG, you weren't. A 12 year old does not have the brain development to fully realize the consequences of their action. That is the reason that there are juvenile courts to deal with issues related to juveniles. That is also why parents are sometimes held responsible for the behavior of children. He was far from having the maturity of an adult.

It would take a child to some how pull a toy gun on armed police.

A 12 year old may not fully appreciate the consequences if their own action, but they can shoot and kill you just as quickly as anyone else. I recall an incident last year with a 5 year old bringing and discharging a gun at school.

[media]

The kid didnt even have it in his hand when they shot him !!

<deleted>

this could have been handled much better, Frigging trigger happy cops !!

[Harveyg]

there is no minimum age limit to firing a lethal weapon at someone as long as youre able to pull the trigger. He was told to put his hands up but went to his waistband to draw the weapon. He must have known it was a fake so id say he was looking for a darwin award ...12yrs old is old enough to know what he was doing.

A 12 year old is not old enough to be aware of the consequences of his actions.

Actions speak louder than words, er thoughts, er intentions, errrrr.

Anyway, your message sounds like a great defense when his court date comes up.

Sorry guys, couldn't resist...

A former clevelander

[sustento]

Never Sure post # 5

And just which Utopia do you live in which never has a needless death, any violence against children, and where people are perfect and immortal?

Was a police officer and was trained as a firearms specialist we carried firearms in our dept at times, we were also trained to react accordingly.

Yes tragic unneeded deaths do occur however the killing of a 12 year old child is not a normal policing scenario.

And your experiences sir ?

I'm a certified firearms instructor. I've been around guns all of my life.

They are making toy guns for kids now that look real. That's what should be illegal.

Look at these two guns. The first one with the blue background is a real 9mm Beretta 92FS. The second one on the wooden background is a toy replica. It even has the grip door open to receive the C02 cartridges to fire the soft projectiles.

Point either one of those at me and the result for you will be the same.

BER.jpg

bert.jpg

"Police said the weapon was an "airsoft" replica gun that resembled a semi-automatic pistol, adding that an orange safety indicator had been removed."

[F430murci]

The kid didnt even have it in his hand when they shot him !!

<deleted>'

this could have been handled much better, Frigging trigger happy cops !!

The report I read said the kid pulled the gun from his waist band so it was in his hand when they shot him. Hard to say if trigger happy or not. Things happen quickly. These are life and death situations and hesitation can be the difference between the going home to see his family or going to the morgue.

[strapper1]

How many of us played cops and robbers or cowboy's and indian's when we were kids? There just seems to be too much paranoia in today's society. It is really unfortunate, that kids can't be kids anymore!

[F430murci]

Never Sure post # 5

And just which Utopia do you live in which never has a needless death, any violence against children, and where people are perfect and immortal?

Was a police officer and was trained as a firearms specialist we carried firearms in our dept at times, we were also trained to react accordingly.

Yes tragic unneeded deaths do occur however the killing of a 12 year old child is not a normal policing scenario.

And your experiences sir ?

I'm a certified firearms instructor. I've been around guns all of my life.

They are making toy guns for kids now that look real. That's what should be illegal.

Look at these two guns. The first one with the blue background is a real 9mm Beretta 92FS. The second one on the wooden background is a toy replica. It even has the grip door open to receive the C02 cartridges to fire the soft projectiles.

Point either one of those at me and the result for you will be the same.

BER.jpg

bert.jpg

"Police said the weapon was an "airsoft" replica gun that resembled a semi-automatic pistol, adding that an orange safety indicator had been removed."

Here is a video discussing these air soft guns.

[F430murci]

How many of us played cops and robbers or cowboy's and indian's when we were kids? There just seems to be too much paranoia in today's society. It is really unfortunate, that kids can't be kids anymore!

Things have changed. 12 year olds in bad areas live in fear of being shot daily. Neighborhoods and schools are like war zones. They have real guns now, not toy guns, and they are not fraud to use them.

[sustento]

"Police said the weapon was an "airsoft" replica gun that resembled a semi-automatic pistol, adding that an orange safety indicator had been removed."

Here is a video discussing these air soft guns.

I quoted that from the report because it mentions that the orange safety indicator had been removed. BB and Airsoft guns in the UK must have a large part of the body made of orange or blue material or be partially transparent and I assumed that the same would be true of the US. Is this not so?

http://airsoft4less.co.uk/products/Desert-Eagle-.50-Full-Metal-gas-Blowback-Airsoft-Gun.html

[strapper1]

How many of us played cop's and robber's or cowboy's and indian's (toy guns) when we were kids? Society today is just to darn paranoid, this senseless death ls just another '"sign of the times"

[lust]

Something tells me that this officer will be found soon with a hollow point in his temple. That's got to be a lot of guilt on someone. Regardless of right or wrong.

Edited November 24, 2014 by lust

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been removed. Again, this doesn't have much to do with gun laws. It was a toy gun.

[SNGLIFE]

This is horrific and needs to stop.

• Parents should not allow children to play with toy guns.
• Parents should always supervise their children
• Police should STOP their rampage of "shoot-to-kill" massacres and shoot-to-maim instead, if the situation warrants a shooting at all.

In every case, a maiming shot would either resolve the matter or prove whether a kill shot is then warranted. Instead, police go straight for the kill shot and that is why tragedies like this happen.

It should be common sense in a situation where a child is brandishing a gun that the gun may or may not be real. If the child does not respond to officers' verbal commands or warning shots, then obviously something is not right with the child or the child is simply too fearful to comply. A shot in the brandishing arm or a leg would be warranted. If the child were to point the weapon after that, and the child could not be reached by my partner (who should have been flanking the child for a taser shot), then a kill shot might be warranted; although I would personally allow for the child to actually fire the weapon before I would pull the trigger for a kill shot knowing that the probability a maimed child would actually score a hit after being shot is low. The confrontation was long enough for bystanders to have left the area. If some stood around watching the spectacle, I would not shoot to kill just to protect gawking dumb@sses.

Police need to use common sense and training - not fear - to diffuse situations without lethal force. That is the job.

Instead, police think the job is to kill with impunity at every opportunity. That is just wrong.

That said, I agree all toy guns should be made an obvious toy color. No more realistic guns.

Edited November 24, 2014 by SNGLIFE

[cup-O-coffee]

Many years ago, I had taken one of the kids to a birthday party and all the kids were given a gift of a toy gun. I didn't pay much attention to it, but we were driving home and he was sitting in the back seat playing with the gun. We were suddenly surrounded by police cars, and ordered out of the car with our hands in the air.

Some people had reported to the police seeing a child with a gun in the car and they took immediate action.

No harm was done, but no toy guns were ever allowed in the house. We didn't have any real ones either.

Interesting to note that you obeyed the officers, who were pointing there guns at you (emphasis on "OBEYED THE OFFICERS, WHO WERE POINTING THEIR GUNS AT YOU") and did not instead "act out" going for the gun.

BIG DIFFERENCE in attitude here.

[hanno]

Yet another black kid shot by police.......

[uptheos]

I'm sure there is a rampant gun culture among gangs in cities like Cleveland.

I would also imagine that they recruit youngsters.

A young person with a 'gun' cannot be assumed not to use it.

Have people seen a picture of that gun?

Looks pretty deadly to me.

http://www.ibtimes.com/cleveland-police-shoot-12-year-old-boy-holding-toy-gun-child-serious-condition-1728076

[Scott]

Yet another black kid shot by police.......

Are we sure the kid was black?

[uptheos]

Yet another black kid shot by police.......

Are we sure the kid was black?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/us/boy-12-dies-after-being-shot-by-cleveland-police-officer.html

[Ulysses G.]

The kid was black, it was a pellet gun with the orange safety marker removed and the boy reached for it when the police told him to raise his hands. The officer fired twice at the boy, hitting him in the stomach at least once.

[sgtsabai]

I'm glad I never had to make that decision. Where I worked back up was often a minimum of 30 minutes away, if even available. We were few and far between and it was a given everybody in the mountains were armed. We all, no matter which organization we worked for or the jurisdiction, rolled when the call came. Only once was I faced with a similar situation. The difference was the kid was a yr. or so older and had a real gun, had shot at his dad, missed. I and a NM State Cop buddy took him down when we caught him slipping out a back window. No weapons on him at the time but we didn't know for sure until the cuffs were on. Actually, the house search/clearing that followed was a hell of a lot more scary. The kid wasn't really a bad kid, his dad was one bad dude. The kid finished the job a couple of years later, should have gotten a reward instead of jail. My sympathy goes out to the family and the cop that pulled the trigger. With today's replica type guns, one cannot tell if real or not. To those that think we should "shoot to maim", you know nothing. You stand 7 ft. in front of me, average distance for a gunfight, and go for your weapon while I go for mine and see what you hit while "shooting to maim". If you get a shot off, odds are you miss, I won't. Double tap, center mass is the target, stop the action. Even then many miss, yes at 7 ft., and most cops first learn they are in a gunfight when they are shot, or at least it used to be that way. While many of today's militarized police shootings are not justified, this one appears to have been based on what evidence we have read here. Very sad situation. Hard to say, none of were there.

[uptheos]

The kid was black, it was a pellet gun with the orange safety marker removed and the boy reached for it when the police told him to raise his hands. The officer fired twice at the boy, hitting him in the stomach at least once.

Sounds like standard procedure in such dangerous situations.

[cup-O-coffee]

Easy to blame the police but I blame the parents.

In this day and age what responsible parent would let their child go out waving around scaring people.

I doubt the media will be "brave" enough to question the parents regarding their sons actions.

All the attention will be on the Policeman.

Well said. Parents, teachers, community leaders, preachers, etc.

I think these comments say it all...

[Benmart]

How would Thai police have handled such an eventuality in a public park?

From personal experience in 2013, after numerous calls made by me, reporting gunfire and a fight outside a bar adjacent to my condo, two BIB arrived after everyone had run away.

No report was taken, no evidence (shell casings in street and blood on sidewalk from a knife that was also used), no ranking officers responded, and I was never contacted, even though I provided my name and where I could be found.

Eventually, the bar was closed only to be resurrected as another noisesome venue. I moved to Pratumnak (Pattaya neighborhood)..

I can only guess that a report to the RTP, similar to the Cleveland incident, would have been handled in "typical" fashion, whatever that is.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Benmart

[uptheos]

Easy to blame the police but I blame the parents.

In this day and age what responsible parent would let their child go out waving around scaring people.

I doubt the media will be "brave" enough to question the parents regarding their sons actions.

All the attention will be on the Policeman.

Well said. Parents, teachers, community leaders, preachers, etc.

I think these comments say it all...

It says "“His mother is devastated,” Mr. Kucharski said. “We’d love to have the prayers of the community right now.” http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/us/boy-12-dies-after-being-shot-by-cleveland-police-officer.html

So I'm guessing it was single parent family, no father figure as is the case with so many African-American children. Left on his own to go where he likes, do what he wanted From what I've read, schools in Cleveland don't give a damn and community leaders are non existent or have their own agenda.

Very sad, but I would imagine lots of young African-Americans get killed usually by other African-Americans.

[Scott]

An off-topic post with video has been removed.

[muffy]

You don't shoot to kill , you shoot to stop .

[Jonmarleesco]

Given a four-year-old might have shot a three-year-old in the mouth, in the US, nothing that involves a shooting in that country can surprise me. And still the gun lobby will have its way.