Should I convert my car to LPG?

[ThaiSanookGuy]

If you want to burn alive ?

Actually in most instances it's safer then gasoline but don't let proper info taint your nonsense when posting..

Ah yes, you are certainly right, but everytime I read news about burning car as the Benz few months ago and the Thai pilot burn alive with his family they has cheapcharlies fuel in their car, just coincidence ?

[WarpSpeed]

The 'Energy Reform" system cost 27,000 Baht (in Chiang Mai) with a 58 litre tank.

Be aware, that many new cars are with 'Direct Fuel Injection' engines, and they can not be converted to LPG (or NGV).

Of course they can, more nonsense info.. They use a piggy back ECU and an electrical cutoff to the fuel function of the vehicle ECU and install new injectors into the manifold..

[lj cm]

If these systems ar so great then why Not New Car Companys installing this?

They do; but only cars/pickups running on CNG. PTT is producing natural gas at their fields in the south. LPG is mainly imported.

The problem is, that PTT has not been building the number of CNG stations, as they promised; and that's why, you see car queues at CNG stations.

[WarpSpeed]

If you want to burn alive ?

Actually in most instances it's safer then gasoline but don't let proper info taint your nonsense when posting..

Ah yes, you are certainly right, but everytime I read news about burning car as the Benz few months ago and the Thai pilot burn alive with his family they has cheapcharlies fuel in their car, just coincidence ?

First off Lp is not "cheap charlie fuel". It's not only less expensive (one of several bonuses) it is also more efficient and better for the environment, yes it is coincidence, do you believe EVERYTHING you read in the media? People die everyday from gasoline fires as well and it doesn't make the news because it's NOT news, neither are LP fires but the media needs sensational news to get peoples attention so it becomes news and therefore gets reported.. Besides did you see where I noted "in most instances" I did that because there's always exceptions where human error is involved in some way and there's also always one that will single out the few instances there may be in a desperate attempt to prove their point and I tried vainly to preempt that one, but guess what?.. Congratulations

[lj cm]

The 'Energy Reform" system cost 27,000 Baht (in Chiang Mai) with a 58 litre tank.

Be aware, that many new cars are with 'Direct Fuel Injection' engines, and they can not be converted to LPG (or NGV).

Of course they can, more nonsense info.. They use a piggy back ECU and an electrical cutoff to the fuel function of the vehicle ECU and install new injectors into the manifold..

You are right; but your explanation is just a nice mix of buzzwords.

Here is the real story:

http://www.gasitaly.com/f5direct

[ThaiSanookGuy]

I am not sure but during another life, as much I can remind, I might have read from you (or someone with the same avatar) that you can drive quickly or drunk without accident and that you can control your car whatever happens... so not sure I will really take your new post seriously <3

Can you also drive when your eyes are closed ? :-)

[WarpSpeed]

The 'Energy Reform" system cost 27,000 Baht (in Chiang Mai) with a 58 litre tank.

Be aware, that many new cars are with 'Direct Fuel Injection' engines, and they can not be converted to LPG (or NGV).

Of course they can, more nonsense info.. They use a piggy back ECU and an electrical cutoff to the fuel function of the vehicle ECU and install new injectors into the manifold..

You are right; but your explanation is just a nice mix of buzzwords.

Here is the real story:

http://www.gasitaly.com/f5direct

Nice mix of buzz words?? Oh sorry I used words to summarize the operation and process of the system and that wasn't complicated enough for you? But yet you said it wasn't possible to install at all? Oh my giddy aunt........

[WarpSpeed]

I am not sure but during another life, as much I can remind, I might have read from you (or someone with the same avatar) that you can drive quickly or drunk without accident and that you can control your car whatever happens... so not sure I will really take your new post seriously <3

Can you also drive when your eyes are closed ? :-)

No you definitely didn't read any such thing from me, so I can see now why you have difficulty comprehending real info.. It's always the same, someone posts nonsense and when someone else who knows better calls them out on their nonsense they get all nasty and personal to try to derail the real topic at hand, nice try once again, the fact remains your info is incorrect so do some research first next time or have some real world practical experience to draw on before posting it, now go lick your wounds.

Edited November 28, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

O

It works great til it blows up!

Pretty much true for every car..

OP I never had ANY issues with waiting to filling up LP with our cars for the 5 years there I owned various ones in the cities especially, and if you have a dual fuel system installed there is never any worry of running out and being stranded, plus it helps the overall longevity of the cars engine. CNG however is another issue as IME I don't know of any CNG cars that are dual fuel as it takes more engine conversion to use CNG and those stations always have lines, more taxi's with CNG then LP from experience.

As some others have mentioned, primary consideration initial cost of conversion ROI and how quickly you get it back and begin to see actual savings, that's why I always bought cars already converted= immediate return.

BTW that's 5 years I owned various cars with it, I lived there 10 years.

He is quite right what he says, the truth of the matter is that LPG is a very dry and doesn't provide adequate lubrication. I have worked on many cars where the valves have been burned through or holes in the pistons due to the lack of lubrication. That is why diesel engines will do twice as many miles as petrol engines because diesel is an oil and helps to lubricate. Why save pennies to lose pounds?

Nonsense.

Any car designed to run on unleaded fuel will have hardened valve seats, and will have no issues with LPG. Holes in pistons are caused by incorrect mixture, or other causes of detonation, which LPG is much less likely to cause, if installed/tuned correctly, due to its very high octane compared to gasoline.

In fact, engines last much longer, and the oil stays cleaner longer, due to the fact that LPG is dry - no liquid fuel getting past the rings during warmup, when a gasoline engine must run very rich (choked) to run at all.

The main gripe I have with LPG is that there is about 20% less energy per "gallon equivalent" than gasoline, so substituting LPG will possibly decrease fuel economy and performance on an otherwise unmodified engine.

Practically, the fact that it is a gas, not a liquid which needs to be atomized by fuel injectors, makes up much of the difference, and the current price makes it much cheaper to drive in any case.

In order to get the real benefit of LPG, however, the compression ratio of the engine needs to be raised substantially to take advantage of the higher octane. Of course the average LPG conversion is not going to include replacing the pistons with high compression ones, but if you're going to build your own...

It's not nonsense, once again a sorely misinformed newbie comes along, do some research, it's part of the reason they make pre-oilers for the top end though if you are good with proper care as I've described they are not really necessary but some lubrication and cooling process is necessary. But if the OP wishes to take a chance with his engine and takes your poor advice instead of just being cautious and correct in taking my good advice that carries no risk what-so-ever comparatively speaking, that's his choice to be right in my case or stupid in your case but either way now that he has the proper info I supplied he can now make the decision to do what he wishes with his engine and money..

Not only is Lp dry it also burns hotter then gasoline so burns off any slight amount of lubrication it may acquire, the valves either burn through the seats, or lock up due to over-heating and break or bend stems which is actually more common, no amount of hardening will change this, they still require constant lubrication and cooling like ANY other engine part, hardened or not .

Opppps! Just read more disinformation in your post, do you know what the acronym Lp stands for? Rhetorically asking as obviously you don't, it stands for "liquid propane" so it's not a gas until it heats up, until then it is a liquid hence it's name and it does atomize with a pre-heater every bit as good as gasoline does..

UT oh! Another point of contention and misinformation, you managed to point out correctly that modern engines mostly have hardened valve seats but yet managed to overlook that most modern engines have substantially higher compression ratios too and require higher octane in the case of many higher performance engines, so kind of a massive contradiction on your part once again.. Most smaller bore Thailand engines have more then adequate compression ratios the problem is that because of that they tend to knock with gasoline when tuned to Lp.

Edited November 28, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

If these systems ar so great then why Not New Car Companys installing this?

Pretty simple answer really, they do.. Even still the world wide market nor infrastructure is not to the point yet for the manufacturers to invest the amount of money necessary into a completely separate manufacturing process on a wide number of models so they focus more on applications like trucks that would benefit the most at the current time. And I know it's hard for some to accept but Thailand is not even a blip on the radars of most manufacturers in terms of market size and future potential. Now China? That's another story altogether, their market could really benefit from cleaner burning cars all around and the cheaper, readily available fuel as well, given that their market is relatively new they missed a big opportunity to come in with real efficiency on that front from the beginning as the tech was readily available when their market was just getting traction and they could've really set up an infrastructure for it, sadly though now they're behind..

Edited November 28, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[lj cm]

The 'Energy Reform" system cost 27,000 Baht (in Chiang Mai) with a 58 litre tank.

Be aware, that many new cars are with 'Direct Fuel Injection' engines, and they can not be converted to LPG (or NGV).

Of course they can, more nonsense info.. They use a piggy back ECU and an electrical cutoff to the fuel function of the vehicle ECU and install new injectors into the manifold..

You are right; but your explanation is just a nice mix of buzzwords.

Here is the real story:

http://www.gasitaly.com/f5direct

Nice mix of buzz words?? Oh sorry I used words to summarize the operation and process of the system and that wasn't complicated enough for you? But yet you said it wasn't possible to install at all? Oh my giddy aunt........

Your answer is just beautiful. I was really LOL. But; the Direct Fuel Injections sits directly in the cylinders and can not be turned off because then they will "burn".

[atyclb]

a friends mb suv in bangkok developed serious issues allegedly from the use of gas post conversion. it is a uk model and eu mechanics have said it is ok/better if the engine was designed for dual fuel. parts to fix the car are crazy expensive

[seedy]

Here is my car operating costs -

LPG - 1.6 to 1.7 baht/km

Gasoline - 3.5 - 4.5 baht/ km

PCX - 0.75 - 0.85 baht/ km

Car done over 160,000 km with no issues. LPG since new.

[WarpSpeed]

Of course they can, more nonsense info.. They use a piggy back ECU and an electrical cutoff to the fuel function of the vehicle ECU and install new injectors into the manifold..

You are right; but your explanation is just a nice mix of buzzwords.

Here is the real story:

http://www.gasitaly.com/f5direct

Nice mix of buzz words?? Oh sorry I used words to summarize the operation and process of the system and that wasn't complicated enough for you? But yet you said it wasn't possible to install at all? Oh my giddy aunt........

Your answer is just beautiful. I was really LOL. But; the Direct Fuel Injections sits directly in the cylinders and can not be turned off because then they will "burn".

Hence another reason I have mentioned multiple times to have a dual fuel system installed and run gasoline for a period of time for every hour or so of Lp run time to cool and lubricate the top end, which, not so ironically, includes the injectors..

What I'd really be interested in knowing is, exactly how many of these posters against it have actually had a system on one of their cars instead of just "knowing" or "hearing" from a friend of their giddy aunt or sisters BIL first cousin removed or something equally third or fourth party or just got their info from the internet?

Edited November 29, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[UKJASE]

If you want to burn alive ?

you base your comments on what? you have LPG in your house for cooking, do you worry you may get toasted from that tank, or would that be a little OTT?

[WhamBam]

I had a Ford Mondeo running on LPG. It was converted before I bought it. I ran that car for about 3 years with no engine issues. That car must have been 15 or more years old with the original Ford engine in it.

The Mitsubishi Strada I had was converted from Diesel to a petrol Toyota Engine to run on LPG also had no problems whatsoever regarding the engine.

Both the above were dual fuel and often started on petrol and also run on petrol at times to keep the engine lubricated.

Neither motor exploded either.

[sawadee1947]

if you got an old car, there is NO advanyage. Consider the costs and consider what is your yearly milage and then you probably can see that you have to drive your car for the next 10 years just to balance the costs. Maybe in thistime your car is broken already?

If you want to buy a new one it's a good idea if it comes from the maker of your car. If not be careful. Unsafe systems on the market!

[jacko45k]

No, too many car fires here.

Regular fuels are getting cheaper so is it worth it?

[Chonburiram]

Wife, me, daughter doing proximately 200.000 km per year, we have 2 cars running on CNG, 2 on LPG, not doing so would be batshit stupid.

The CNG's are factorybuild, bought new. The LPG's are bought new at the dealership and directly driven to the converter. Never had a problem bec of CNG, LPG, only thing i do is earlier than recommended oil changes and on long distance drives switch to petrol for 10-20 km every 200-300 km.

We save min. 400.000฿ pa.

[vaca azul]

Please tell me the difference between LPG....CNG.... NGV......

Where is the advantage of gas? Is it really dangerous? I heard never about explosions...

[seedy]

LPG - liquid propane gas

NGV - natural gas vehicle which burns CNG - compressed natural gas

[WarpSpeed]

Wife, me, daughter doing proximately 200.000 km per year, we have 2 cars running on CNG, 2 on LPG, not doing so would be batshit stupid.

The CNG's are factorybuild, bought new. The LPG's are bought new at the dealership and directly driven to the converter. Never had a problem bec of CNG, LPG, only thing i do is earlier than recommended oil changes and on long distance drives switch to petrol for 10-20 km every 200-300 km.

We save min. 400.000฿ pa.

Actually with both gases your oil stays longer as those fuels burn cleaner and have less contaminates in them that break the oil down..

[Chonburiram]

Less contaminates, but what about the heat?

[WarpSpeed]

Yes, well, the heat is an issue but most modern oils don't have viscosity break down like they used to, contaminates are a far greater issue. Guidelines for oil changes haven't really kept up with the quality of oil in many cases of course mostly because those who put them out also sell oil but realistically you can usually go without a change of oil for almost twice what you used to but with a change of filter in between and that's for conventional fuels, the same is definitely true for LP or CNG.

As a side note, I start with higher viscosity in the first place depending on the age of the car, I used 20W50 synthetic blend on my cars there and still do, though it's getting harder to find here stateside, I also use an additive on top of that and I've had good success and after 25 years of motorsports in mostly stock engine'd cars I've NEVER had a blown engine and that's with front running equipment, I don't know of anyone else who can say that, I guess I've been doing something right?

[UKJASE]

Yes, well, the heat is an issue but most modern oils don't have viscosity break down like they used to, contaminates are a far greater issue. Guidelines for oil changes haven't really kept up with the quality of oil in many cases of course mostly because those who put them out also sell oil but realistically you can usually go without a change of oil for almost twice what you used to but with a change of filter in between and that's for conventional fuels, the same is definitely true for LP or CNG.

As a side note, I start with higher viscosity in the first place depending on the age of the car, I used 20W50 synthetic blend on my cars there and still do, though it's getting harder to find here stateside, I also use an additive on top of that and I've had good success and after 25 years of motorsports in mostly stock engine'd cars I've NEVER had a blown engine and that's with front running equipment, I don't know of anyone else who can say that, I guess I've been doing something right?

what is the best oil i should use here in thailand warpspeed mate?

i have never used synthetic before, so dont know anything about it really, but i hear it is the best for LPG cars

our car is a 2007 cheverolet optra 1.8 LTSS converted to LPG about 6 months ago

PS really happy with our conversion. done here in hua hin for 31,000B, and no problems to speak of.

[WarpSpeed]

Hmmm I didn't use full synthetic when I was there and actually mostly used conventional motor oil with STP additive and my cars were older with high mileage, I've not been there for a while so might be outdated advice. Of course Mobil1 is good for a full synthetic but synthetics don't come in 20w50 weight which I more commonly used and why I liked semi synthetic over full synthetic. I generally used Castrol semi synthetic, but having been out of country a few years now my memory is not serving me too well as to which was more readily available? I also generally bought my oil from Autobachs so I could better ensure the quality and they had a better selection and even some high performance brands if needed.

Edited December 2, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[TheKnave]

O

It works great til it blows up!

Pretty much true for every car..

OP I never had ANY issues with waiting to filling up LP with our cars for the 5 years there I owned various ones in the cities especially, and if you have a dual fuel system installed there is never any worry of running out and being stranded, plus it helps the overall longevity of the cars engine. CNG however is another issue as IME I don't know of any CNG cars that are dual fuel as it takes more engine conversion to use CNG and those stations always have lines, more taxi's with CNG then LP from experience.

As some others have mentioned, primary consideration initial cost of conversion ROI and how quickly you get it back and begin to see actual savings, that's why I always bought cars already converted= immediate return.

BTW that's 5 years I owned various cars with it, I lived there 10 years.

He is quite right what he says, the truth of the matter is that LPG is a very dry and doesn't provide adequate lubrication. I have worked on many cars where the valves have been burned through or holes in the pistons due to the lack of lubrication. That is why diesel engines will do twice as many miles as petrol engines because diesel is an oil and helps to lubricate. Why save pennies to lose pounds?

Nonsense.

Any car designed to run on unleaded fuel will have hardened valve seats, and will have no issues with LPG. Holes in pistons are caused by incorrect mixture, or other causes of detonation, which LPG is much less likely to cause, if installed/tuned correctly, due to its very high octane compared to gasoline.

In fact, engines last much longer, and the oil stays cleaner longer, due to the fact that LPG is dry - no liquid fuel getting past the rings during warmup, when a gasoline engine must run very rich (choked) to run at all.

The main gripe I have with LPG is that there is about 20% less energy per "gallon equivalent" than gasoline, so substituting LPG will possibly decrease fuel economy and performance on an otherwise unmodified engine.

Practically, the fact that it is a gas, not a liquid which needs to be atomized by fuel injectors, makes up much of the difference, and the current price makes it much cheaper to drive in any case.

In order to get the real benefit of LPG, however, the compression ratio of the engine needs to be raised substantially to take advantage of the higher octane. Of course the average LPG conversion is not going to include replacing the pistons with high compression ones, but if you're going to build your own...

It's not nonsense, once again a sorely misinformed newbie comes along, do some research, it's part of the reason they make pre-oilers for the top end though if you are good with proper care as I've described they are not really necessary but some lubrication and cooling process is necessary. But if the OP wishes to take a chance with his engine and takes your poor advice instead of just being cautious and correct in taking my good advice that carries no risk what-so-ever comparatively speaking, that's his choice to be right in my case or stupid in your case but either way now that he has the proper info I supplied he can now make the decision to do what he wishes with his engine and money..

Not only is Lp dry it also burns hotter then gasoline so burns off any slight amount of lubrication it may acquire, the valves either burn through the seats, or lock up due to over-heating and break or bend stems which is actually more common, no amount of hardening will change this, they still require constant lubrication and cooling like ANY other engine part, hardened or not .

Opppps! Just read more disinformation in your post, do you know what the acronym Lp stands for? Rhetorically asking as obviously you don't, it stands for "liquid propane" so it's not a gas until it heats up, until then it is a liquid hence it's name and it does atomize with a pre-heater every bit as good as gasoline does..

UT oh! Another point of contention and misinformation, you managed to point out correctly that modern engines mostly have hardened valve seats but yet managed to overlook that most modern engines have substantially higher compression ratios too and require higher octane in the case of many higher performance engines, so kind of a massive contradiction on your part once again.. Most smaller bore Thailand engines have more then adequate compression ratios the problem is that because of that they tend to knock with gasoline when tuned to Lp.

Most of your post is laughable, and will be disregarded by anyone who has ever worked on an engine, or taken high school auto shop.

A pointer to your credibility (or lack thereof) is your ignorance of the meaning of LPG - Liquified Petroleum Gas - which in fact is, depending on market, up to 40% butane, balance propane.

Your folly that its dryness provides insufficient lubrication, compared to unleaded gasoline apparently assumes that it somehow exists in liquid state as it passes the exhaust valve, a physical impossibility.

In fact, when gasoline containing tetraethyl lead was the norm, very few automotive engines has, or needed, hardened valves or seats. When unleaded fuel became mandated, induction hardened seats and hardened valves became standard equipment. The tetraethyl lead existed, in solid phase, on the valve seat and face to provide lubrication for the softer seats in use back then. LPG, when used in a correctly tuned system, will be perfectly compatible and give better life than unleaded gasoline, due, in fact to the very "dryness" that appears to make you so sick and nervous. It doesn't wash away the oil film that is necessary on the cylinder walls to protect the piston from scuffing.

I could go on, having built and driven half a dozen LPG vehicles over 40+ years of driving modified vehicles, but the info is available on line for anyone not swayed by braggadocio, and who is generally interested in LPG as an alternative fuel.

But, hey, I'm just a newbie.

[petercool]

A flame post removed.

On the request of the OP, who has his answers now, this topic is //CLOSED//