Russian historians left baffled by Putin's Crimean claims

[webfact]

Russian historians left baffled by Putin's Crimean claims
Ilya Arkhipov

Moscow - President Vladimir Putin's elevation of Crimea to the status of Russia's Holy Land has prompted puzzlement and scorn from historians and commentators in Russia and abroad.

Crimea for Russians was like the Temple Mount in Jerusalem for Muslims and Jews, Mr Putin told Parliament and senior officials in the Kremlin in his annual address on Thursday, adding that the strategically important peninsula would be regarded this way from now on.

Defending Russia's annexation of Crimea, he called "the reunification" of Russia and Crimea a historic event, turning to ancient history to bolster his argument.

"For our country, for our people, this event has a special meaning, because our people live in Crimea and the territory itself is strategically important," he said. "It was here in Crimea in ancient Khersones, or Korsun as the chroniclers called it, that Count Vladimir was baptised (in the 10th century), to then baptise the rest of Rus."

It is widely accepted that Vladimir the Great was baptised in Kherson, Crimea, an event in 988 that is considered to be the beginning of the Christianisation of Kievan Rus, a precursor state to Russia and Ukraine. Yet there are doubts concerning the event's relevancy to current events.

"Prince Vladimir was Kievan, not Muscovite, and this probably only underlines the right of Kiev and not Moscow to Crimea," Andrei Zubov, a Russian historian and political scientist, said. Historians argue over whether Vladimir was baptised in Vasilev, near Kiev, rather than Kherson, said Dr Zubov, who lost his post at the Moscow State Institute of International Relations in March, after he compared Mr Putin's takeover of Crimea to Nazi leader Adolf Hitler's annexation of Austria in 1938.

Full story: http://www.theage.com.au/world/russian-historians-left-baffled-by-putins-crimean-claims-20141205-120pea.html


-- The Age 2014-12-05

[neverdie]

He's mentally retarded and he just keeps trying to find new ways to show it.

[Credo]

He should be content with explaining the strategic importance of Crimea rather than trying to re-write history. This very poor attempt does not help his credibility.

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been removed. Please re-read the OP and respond accordingly.

[Living in a cartoon]

Please bring back the Iron Curtain while your at it. There were a lot of advantages for non-Russians.

[ezzra]

Just add this comments to a string of bizarre claims and antics Putin came up with in

the last couple of years, and when the Russian people idolize/fear him the way they do,

that I too, would come up with silly statements...

[Globeman]

He's mentally retarded and he just keeps trying to find new ways to show it.

I think you underestimate the man... And I question your qualifications to do so. Now, I'm only guessing, but clever as you may be - and certainly seem to think you are - I don't expect that you actually maintain an iron grip on one of the world's most powerful nations do you? Well, perhaps you run a large corporation? No? A sizeable religious sect? No? A business employing 10 or more people? No? Well, maybe you are the captain of a warship? No? Cruise ship? No? I suspect that the only thing you command is the view from your barstool - lord and master over all you see... Am I right? And what you saw today was a mentally retarded guy... but you may just have been looking into the mirror behind the bar, I'm afraid.

Putin is not a retard, he's a megalomaniac - and a very dangerous one. Underestimating him is foolhardy.

[wabothai]

Powerhungry dictator comes to mind.

[arjunadawn]

Putin may be many things, but retarded is not one of them. Like him or not, he is brilliant, shrewd, and ruthless; he also has considerable KGB experience. I think many have noted Putin runs circles around the American leader; how unfortunate for America. Now is Russia's moment. In fact, now is anyone' s moment to test American resolve everywhere!

[neverdie]

He's mentally retarded and he just keeps trying to find new ways to show it.

I think you underestimate the man... And I question your qualifications to do so. Now, I'm only guessing, but clever as you may be - and certainly seem to think you are - I don't expect that you actually maintain an iron grip on one of the world's most powerful nations do you? Well, perhaps you run a large corporation? No? A sizeable religious sect? No? A business employing 10 or more people? No? Well, maybe you are the captain of a warship? No? Cruise ship? No? I suspect that the only thing you command is the view from your barstool - lord and master over all you see... Am I right? And what you saw today was a mentally retarded guy... but you may just have been looking into the mirror behind the bar, I'm afraid.

Putin is not a retard, he's a megalomaniac - and a very dangerous one. Underestimating him is foolhardy.

Don't drink & don't sit of bar stools.

Secondly, you wouldn't have a clue about me and what I did, but the rubbish you wrote was mildly entertaining.......especially because it came from someone like yourself.

I advise you to stop trying to think. It's not working for you.

Edited December 5, 2014 by neverdie

[bob strutt]

neverdie, you are a most uninformed , doult, putin is one of the worlds great leaders at this time

[makkam]

He's mentally retarded and he just keeps trying to find new ways to show it.

I think you underestimate the man... And I question your qualifications to do so. Now, I'm only guessing, but clever as you may be - and certainly seem to think you are - I don't expect that you actually maintain an iron grip on one of the world's most powerful nations do you? Well, perhaps you run a large corporation? No? A sizeable religious sect? No? A business employing 10 or more people? No? Well, maybe you are the captain of a warship? No? Cruise ship? No? I suspect that the only thing you command is the view from your barstool - lord and master over all you see... Am I right? And what you saw today was a mentally retarded guy... but you may just have been looking into the mirror behind the bar, I'm afraid.

Putin is not a retard, he's a megalomaniac - and a very dangerous one. Underestimating him is foolhardy.

On that logic the last 3 rulers of north korea have been 'regular guys'!

I like the way you make your print get bigger as your illogical rant reaches a crescendo.

I'd love your thoughts on the mental acuity of the

Ceacescus (sp )

Khaddafi

Hitler

Mussolini

Saddam Hussein

Clearly you seem to believe the exercising of power as an indicator of ability, when it's little more than bullies being in the right place at the right time

I'm not sat in a bar by the way.

[Scott]

Another off-topic post has been removed. There have been numerous topics about the politics of the Ukraine situation. This thread is about Putin's remarks about the area and the response from historians.

Please stay on topic.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts removed. Again, re-read the OP. "Russian historians baffled...."

[Slain]

I think he (Putin) is just playing the old dictators game of deflecting all that is wrong with Russia to an imagined enemy, such as the west, or anyone else that he can think of. It seems to be working too. Except most of the world leaders seemingly ignore his rants.

Er, they do still have the nukes though so best to take some notice

[neverdie]

He's mentally retarded and he just keeps trying to find new ways to show it.

I think you underestimate the man... And I question your qualifications to do so. Now, I'm only guessing, but clever as you may be - and certainly seem to think you are - I don't expect that you actually maintain an iron grip on one of the world's most powerful nations do you? Well, perhaps you run a large corporation? No? A sizeable religious sect? No? A business employing 10 or more people? No? Well, maybe you are the captain of a warship? No? Cruise ship? No? I suspect that the only thing you command is the view from your barstool - lord and master over all you see... Am I right? And what you saw today was a mentally retarded guy... but you may just have been looking into the mirror behind the bar, I'm afraid.

Putin is not a retard, he's a megalomaniac - and a very dangerous one. Underestimating him is foolhardy.

On that logic the last 3 rulers of north korea have been 'regular guys'!

I like the way you make your print get bigger as your illogical rant reaches a crescendo.

I'd love your thoughts on the mental acuity of the

Ceacescus (sp )

Khaddafi

Hitler

Mussolini

Saddam Hussein

Clearly you seem to believe the exercising of power as an indicator of ability, when it's little more than bullies being in the right place at the right time

I'm not sat in a bar by the way.

Well said Makkam, but don't get too caught up in the whacko comments by people like globeman, they only do it whilst on the plonk themselves and after a serious session of self manipulation where they can't even get themselves off. Bitter at the repeated experience they race to the forum to take it out on someone.

For all with eyes and a brain, it's clear what sort of person Putin is. Globeman might not realise we can see what he's presently in charge of and what an evil murderous bastard he has become. There is nothing overly smart about Putin,history has shown people like this can get to power and it also has shown what destruction and pain they can cause. Normally it's inflicted upon the very people they are suppose to serve. There's a special place in h e l l for #unts like this.

I should add, Putin isn't the only a.hole in this world and clearly he's not the only one governing a country. There's many other evil bastards that line up behind these people too.

Anyway, I'm sure globeman will be along after his next failed attempt at a rub session to comment.

[englishoak]

He should be content with explaining the strategic importance of Crimea rather than trying to re-write history. This very poor attempt does not help his credibility.

Whatever else he might be, one thing he isnt is mentally retarded.

[wooloomooloo]

Er, they do still have the nukes though so best to take some notice

I've often wondered how Russia would fare in a nuclear war. I couldn't envisage them lasting long [48-hours at most before they're silenced, I reckon]. Most of their warheads are probably knackered and half their missiles wouldn't make it off the launchpad anyway. Their only hope would be China on side.

Their technology is way behind that of the West. When was the last time you purchased an electrical product that was produced in Russia?

Russia's now in the grip of an almighty economic headlock by the West and your average Russian will eventually turn on Putin. It won't take long in the present climate.

I'm sure Putin hasn't forgotten why Ukraine kicked off in the first place.

Let him try it if he really wants to go down that road.

[car720]

He's mentally retarded and he just keeps trying to find new ways to show it.

I think you underestimate the man... And I question your qualifications to do so. Now, I'm only guessing, but clever as you may be - and certainly seem to think you are - I don't expect that you actually maintain an iron grip on one of the world's most powerful nations do you? Well, perhaps you run a large corporation? No? A sizeable religious sect? No? A business employing 10 or more people? No? Well, maybe you are the captain of a warship? No? Cruise ship? No? I suspect that the only thing you command is the view from your barstool - lord and master over all you see... Am I right? And what you saw today was a mentally retarded guy... but you may just have been looking into the mirror behind the bar, I'm afraid.

Putin is not a retard, he's a megalomaniac - and a very dangerous one. Underestimating him is foolhardy.

I must believe that you are neverdie's really close friend because if you are not then it seems to me that there is another dangerous meglomaniac amongst us.

All he did was to make a rhetorical albeit off the cuff comment in a forum which is renown for it and you have seen fit to come down on him like some sort of God.

Answer me this for my understanding. Why have you attacked this man in this manner?

[In Search of Space]

Correct me if I am wrong, I suppose he has a very strong grip on power, media, business and the army. So the average Russian is seeing a hero, we are not. All he seems to be doing is making himself very rich, the palace he has built, and sees himself as the new Tsar.

Not so different to his old communist gang who made a Russia for themselves and definitely not for the people

[wooloomooloo]

Not so different to his old communist gang who made a Russia for themselves and definitely not for the people

Putin is the old communist gang.

[Globeman]

He's mentally retarded and he just keeps trying to find new ways to show it.

I think you underestimate the man... And I question your qualifications to do so. Now, I'm only guessing, but clever as you may be - and certainly seem to think you are - I don't expect that you actually maintain an iron grip on one of the world's most powerful nations do you? Well, perhaps you run a large corporation? No? A sizeable religious sect? No? A business employing 10 or more people? No? Well, maybe you are the captain of a warship? No? Cruise ship? No? I suspect that the only thing you command is the view from your barstool - lord and master over all you see... Am I right? And what you saw today was a mentally retarded guy... but you may just have been looking into the mirror behind the bar, I'm afraid.

Putin is not a retard, he's a megalomaniac - and a very dangerous one. Underestimating him is foolhardy.

On that logic the last 3 rulers of north korea have been 'regular guys'!

I like the way you make your print get bigger as your illogical rant reaches a crescendo.

I'd love your thoughts on the mental acuity of the

Ceacescus (sp )

Khaddafi

Hitler

Mussolini

Saddam Hussein

Clearly you seem to believe the exercising of power as an indicator of ability, when it's little more than bullies being in the right place at the right time

I'm not sat in a bar by the way.

Any change in print size was unintentional. On my original post, it doesn't change - at least not on my computer. Itfirst appears to me when I am quoted.

Hitler, Mussolini, definitely clever guys ... unhinged, most certainly, but not "retarded". The others you list, not retards either... my original point. Idi Amin was one of the less intelligent of the despots but he had some excellent Western backing to get into position... but he, like all the others had cunning. Just because someone is a murderous a-hole (and yes, 'bullies') doesn't mean it is obligatory to label them as stupid. Psychologically unsound, sociopaths, yes, but unintelligent, no. Most of history's greatest killers were clever blokes.

[Globeman]

He's mentally retarded and he just keeps trying to find new ways to show it.

I think you underestimate the man... And I question your qualifications to do so. Now, I'm only guessing, but clever as you may be - and certainly seem to think you are - I don't expect that you actually maintain an iron grip on one of the world's most powerful nations do you? Well, perhaps you run a large corporation? No? A sizeable religious sect? No? A business employing 10 or more people? No? Well, maybe you are the captain of a warship? No? Cruise ship? No? I suspect that the only thing you command is the view from your barstool - lord and master over all you see... Am I right? And what you saw today was a mentally retarded guy... but you may just have been looking into the mirror behind the bar, I'm afraid.

Putin is not a retard, he's a megalomaniac - and a very dangerous one. Underestimating him is foolhardy.

On that logic the last 3 rulers of north korea have been 'regular guys'!

I like the way you make your print get bigger as your illogical rant reaches a crescendo.

I'd love your thoughts on the mental acuity of the

Ceacescus (sp )

Khaddafi

Hitler

Mussolini

Saddam Hussein

Clearly you seem to believe the exercising of power as an indicator of ability, when it's little more than bullies being in the right place at the right time

I'm not sat in a bar by the way.

Well said Makkam, but don't get too caught up in the whacko comments by people like globeman, they only do it whilst on the plonk themselves and after a serious session of self manipulation where they can't even get themselves off. Bitter at the repeated experience they race to the forum to take it out on someone.

For all with eyes and a brain, it's clear what sort of person Putin is. Globeman might not realise we can see what he's presently in charge of and what an evil murderous bastard he has become. There is nothing overly smart about Putin,history has shown people like this can get to power and it also has shown what destruction and pain they can cause. Normally it's inflicted upon the very people they are suppose to serve. There's a special place in h e l l for #unts like this.

I should add, Putin isn't the only a.hole in this world and clearly he's not the only one governing a country. There's many other evil bastards that line up behind these people too.

Anyway, I'm sure globeman will be along after his next failed attempt at a rub session to comment.

Brilliant, just brilliant! Nothing retarded about this post at all... I'd write more, but I have to go and try to rub one out now... However did you guess?

[Richard W]

Prince Vladimir was Kievan, not Muscovite, and this probably only underlines the right of Kiev and not Moscow to Crimea.

The implication is that Putin sees Great Russians, Little Russians and White Russians as all being Russians.

[pitrevie]

Any bets he is going to discover that he is a descendant of Peter the Great.

[Scott]

Post with messed up quotes removed.

[lovetotravel]

Correct me if I am wrong, I suppose he has a very strong grip on power, media, business and the army. So the average Russian is seeing a hero, we are not. All he seems to be doing is making himself very rich, the palace he has built, and sees himself as the new Tsar.

Not so different to his old communist gang who made a Russia for themselves and definitely not for the people

He's seen as a hero by the population due to the tightly controlled media. Both sides of the story are not being reported in the media. Like what you mention about the select few becoming mega rich. There is no freedom of the press in Russia. Nor an independent judiciary.

[konying]

Correct me if I am wrong, I suppose he has a very strong grip on power, media, business and the army. So the average Russian is seeing a hero, we are not. All he seems to be doing is making himself very rich, the palace he has built, and sees himself as the new Tsar.

Not so different to his old communist gang who made a Russia for themselves and definitely not for the people

He's seen as a hero by the population due to the tightly controlled media. Both sides of the story are not being reported in the media. Like what you mention about the select few becoming mega rich. There is no freedom of the press in Russia. Nor an independent judiciary.

And your source of this assertion is???? American media or personal experience of living in Russia?

[neverdie]

He's mentally retarded and he just keeps trying to find new ways to show it.

I think you underestimate the man... And I question your qualifications to do so. Now, I'm only guessing, but clever as you may be - and certainly seem to think you are - I don't expect that you actually maintain an iron grip on one of the world's most powerful nations do you? Well, perhaps you run a large corporation? No? A sizeable religious sect? No? A business employing 10 or more people? No? Well, maybe you are the captain of a warship? No? Cruise ship? No? I suspect that the only thing you command is the view from your barstool - lord and master over all you see... Am I right? And what you saw today was a mentally retarded guy... but you may just have been looking into the mirror behind the bar, I'm afraid.

Putin is not a retard, he's a megalomaniac - and a very dangerous one. Underestimating him is foolhardy.

I must believe that you are neverdie's really close friend because if you are not then it seems to me that there is another dangerous meglomaniac amongst us.

All he did was to make a rhetorical albeit off the cuff comment in a forum which is renown for it and you have seen fit to come down on him like some sort of God.

Answer me this for my understanding. Why have you attacked this man in this manner?

Of course I am "technically" incorrect about Putin being a 'retard' but at least you had the ability to recognise my comment in the fashion it was intended.

Don't worry about Globeman, he's just exposed himself for what he is. Globeman wouldn't have a clue who I am or what I've done so I actually take no offence & I can give and take a little friendly banter....this forum would be rather dull IMO without it.

Globeman certainly isn't my friend....he's just a little guy pumping his chest out on an Internet forum......you and I both know he wouldn't say such a thing in person.

Anyway, it's good to see Putin has a couple of supporters out there, obviously globemans never witnessed real death and destruction, the sort of stuff someone like Putin has already demonstrated he is well and truely capable of.

Nice day to you MrCar....seasons greetings and all the best.

[lovetotravel]

Correct me if I am wrong, I suppose he has a very strong grip on power, media, business and the army. So the average Russian is seeing a hero, we are not. All he seems to be doing is making himself very rich, the palace he has built, and sees himself as the new Tsar.

Not so different to his old communist gang who made a Russia for themselves and definitely not for the people

He's seen as a hero by the population due to the tightly controlled media. Both sides of the story are not being reported in the media. Like what you mention about the select few becoming mega rich. There is no freedom of the press in Russia. Nor an independent judiciary.

And your source of this assertion is???? American media or personal experience of living in Russia?

http://rsf.org/index2014/en-index2014.php

Russia: #148 out of 180 countries.

Reporters Without Borders is based in France. Good enough for you?