Kham muang learn = PLEASE NO CENTRAL THAI..!

[Richard W]

That looks very interesting. Thanks for that but which font are you using? The document says gr3Lannawww but Google says that there's no such thing.

Google doesn't have access to my hard drives!

It's Lannaworld (published on wwww.lannaworld.com) with a (SIL-)graphite interface for the Lanna script encoding ('Tai Tham') as approved by ISO. The Lannaworld font is a hack font predating the encoding of the Lanna script. My interface hasn't been updated for the damage done by Unicode after ISO approval when I was too fatigued to check. We rather assumed that the character properties in the proposal as approved by ISO were fixed. It doesn't work if the text is normalised - I'll probably fix that this month before I correct the spellings in Wikipedia. I haven't resolved the placement of mai sam (the superscript ditto mark). I haven't put my adaptation on the net as I fear that would be a massive breach of the licences for the Lannaworld font.

gr = Graphite

3 = 3rd character encoding (previous two were transpositions to the PUA of early proposals)

Lannaw = abbreviation of 'Lannaworld'

Because Lannaworld is a hack font, it can't be used to display its own name, but 'w' displays, so 'www' can be seen amidst a mess of Lanna characters.

I'm slowly putting together my own library of crude glyphs for the Lanna script.

[Richard W]

shorp = like

mai shorp = dont like.

They're Central Thai. Kam Mueang for the latter would be บ่ซอบ ᨷᩴ᩵ᨪᩬᨷ [L]baw [F]sawp.

[KhamMuang]

I'm slowly putting together my own library of crude glyphs for the Lanna script.

This would be interesting to see.

If you can show me the correct alphabet for a,b,c,d ... u,v,w,x,y,z in lanna then I would [hak] to help.

[Richard W]

I'm slowly putting together my own library of crude glyphs for the Lanna script.

This would be interesting to see.

If you can show me the correct alphabet for a,b,c,d ... u,v,w,x,y,z in lanna then I would [hak] to help.

It's a bit more complicated than that. While there's a basic catalogue of 127 characters in the Unicode code chart, there are also:

• Obligatory ligatures: NA+AA
• , double NYA
• Indisputably required subscript letters: (about 34)
• Abominable subscript letters, such as subscript LOW FA (as in the 'big blue book' Zooheekock found at scribd - ฿300 when I bought my copy)
• Matching fongman and khomut
• Matching full stop (for abbreviations) and comma to go on the hanging baseline. (When writing on lined paper, the tua mueang hang from the lines rather than sit on them.)
• Mai sat song lem (vowel symbol plus tone mark) and possibly also mai sat sam lem (a Tai Lue aberration I am not even sure of the encoding of - probably MAI SAT, MAI SAT, TONE-2).
• One should also have alternative subscript forms for squeezing two or more characters below a consonant - small subscript WA and a thin subscript LA (with tail), and some of the inherently wide subscripts should have alternative narrow forms. Some of the combinations of subscript consonants and vowels below seem to be close to the boundary of what OpenType can do by positioning tables, and may also need dedicated glyphs.

The Lannaworld font I started with has different glyphs for different positions, but I got round this by using Graphite, and OpenType can also be instructed on positions, eliminating this proliferation. Rearrangement is needed because vowels follows consonants in backing store order. I use Graphite for this, while Harfbuzz includes support for OpenType applications that use it. So far as I am aware, Windows does not yet support the Lanna script - it's a bit of a minefield. Edited December 12, 2014 by Richard W

[Roota]

Despite not having lived in the North for many years I still sometimes find myself saying ม่วนขนาด ( = สนุกมาก), much to the confusion of the Phasa Tai/Yawi-speaking locals around here. And now the gf has picked it up . . . .

[KhamMuang]

I'm slowly putting together my own library of crude glyphs for the Lanna script.

This would be interesting to see.

If you can show me the correct alphabet for a,b,c,d ... u,v,w,x,y,z in lanna then I would [hak] to help.

It's a bit more complicated than that. While there's a basic catalogue of 127 characters in the Unicode code chart, there are also:

• Obligatory ligatures: NA+AA
• , double NYA
• Indisputably required subscript letters: (about 34)
• Abominable subscript letters, such as subscript LOW FA (as in the 'big blue book' Zooheekock found at scribd - ฿300 when I bought my copy)
• Matching fongman and khomut
• Matching full stop (for abbreviations) and comma to go on the hanging baseline. (When writing on lined paper, the tua mueang hang from the lines rather than sit on them.)
• Mai sat song lem (vowel symbol plus tone mark) and possibly also mai sat sam lem (a Tai Lue aberration I am not even sure of the encoding of - probably MAI SAT, MAI SAT, TONE-2).
• One should also have alternative subscript forms for squeezing two or more characters below a consonant - small subscript WA and a thin subscript LA (with tail), and some of the inherently wide subscripts should have alternative narrow forms. Some of the combinations of subscript consonants and vowels below seem to be close to the boundary of what OpenType can do by positioning tables, and may also need dedicated glyphs.

The Lannaworld font I started with has different glyphs for different positions, but I got round this by using Graphite, and OpenType can also be instructed on positions, eliminating this proliferation. Rearrangement is needed because vowels follows consonants in backing store order. I use Graphite for this, while Harfbuzz includes support for OpenType applications that use it. So far as I am aware, Windows does not yet support the Lanna script - it's a bit of a minefield.

I use a mac..

Found this - The Center for the Promotion of Arts and Culture, Chiang Mai University.:

http://art-culture.cmu.ac.th/th/fontlanna/ln-tilok

and to count here

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/thai.htm

Edited December 13, 2014 by KhamMuang

[KhamMuang]

This is a newer update of my learning of the northern thai dialect.

I will start to add symbolic characters later.

words to english - my personal preferance.docx

[KhamMuang]

A much better copy of the learning of the northern dialect.

LANNA – CHIANG MIA / CHIANG RAI PROVINCE WITH SYMBOLS AND TONES

YEAR 2014 / DECEMBER 14

The work of many people’s brilliant minds.

LANNA CHIANG MIA CHIANG RAI PROVINCE WITH SYMBOLS AND TONES.docx

[KhamMuang]

This is a major update to the previous versions I have posted. Feel free to download.

@Richard W = dont get complicated with this one = SIMPLIFY PLEASE ...

Download:

I dedicate this book to my girl and beware the "@#$$%%$" who sells it.

Released to the General Public for Free...

Edited December 13, 2014 by KhamMuang

[KhamMuang]

NEWER UPDATE WITH BETTER NUMBERS

LANNA CHIANG MIA CHIANG RAI PROVINCE WITH SYMBOLS AND TONES.docx

Edited December 13, 2014 by KhamMuang

[Richard W]

The Lannaworld font I started with has different glyphs for different positions, but I got round this by using Graphite, and OpenType can also be instructed on positions, eliminating this proliferation. Rearrangement is needed because vowels follows consonants in backing store order. I use Graphite for this, while Harfbuzz includes support for OpenType applications that use it. So far as I am aware, Windows does not yet support the Lanna script - it's a bit of a minefield.

I use a mac..

Macs have been offering increasing support for windows fonts. One could have a font variant with mort and morx tables - but I don't have a Mac to test them on. (I haven't heard of a Graphite to morx converter.) If a font contains both OpenType-specific and Apple Advanced Typography (AAT) tables, the OpenType tables takes precedence on Macs, or at least, the more recent ones.

Found this - The Center for the Promotion of Arts and Culture, Chiang Mai University.[/size]:

http://art-culture.cmu.ac.th/th/fontlanna/ln-tilok

'Free to distribute' isn't the same as 'Free to modify', but it looks like a possible source of glyphs. I would have to get permission, though. While an embedding of that font may be used to print a document, it may not be used to edit the document. The fsType field of the OS/2 table of the font says "preview and print embedding".

[tgeezer]

I wonder if people say ฮู for รู้ because they are frightened to death of being criticised for saying ลู้ . I know that many Northern people haven't learnt or can't say 'R' which is an effective substitute for 'ร'.

[naboo]

My contribution:

bik baan - return home

bik laew - returned home already

oo kam muang bo hoo luang - hear Kam Muang, don't understand a thing

The trouble with Kam Muang is that there are so many dialects. I live with my wife in Lamphun, she's from the south near Li, but she can't understand the people from 10km east of Lamphun city (I think the sub dialect there is "yong").

Personally, I think its an ugly language, though its origins in northern Vietnam teach a lot of the history of movement of people in the region.

[Richard W]

The trouble with Kam Muang is that there are so many dialects. I live with my wife in Lamphun, she's from the south near Li, but she can't understand the people from 10km east of Lamphun city (I think the sub dialect there is "yong").

Tai Yong is a dialect of Tai Lue, though unusual in that it preserves the vowel lengths well.

Personally, I think its an ugly language, though its origins in northern Vietnam teach a lot of the history of movement of people in the region.

I think you're confusing the two different 'Yuan' words - the one for Northern Thai originally meant 'Greek' (as in Sanskrit Yavana, or Javan the son of Japheth - preserved in Greek as Ion), and the word meaning 'Vietnamese'. Edited December 24, 2014 by Richard W

[Richard W]

Language Vitality and Language Attitude among the Yong People in Lamphun Province: A sociolinguistic Study has a word list comparing Standard Thai, Kam Mueang and Tai Yong on p160 (p181 of PDF). Unfortunately, there are some oddities that look like mistakes, and I don't mean typos.

[maewang99]

drive the young crowd... especially females... CRAZY!
 

since Kam Mueang is not a written language anymore..... you can use most of the Pasa Thai letters and locals do.... but also..... since we ain't learning Pasa Thai and.... [ yeah repeating it ]..... Kam Mueang is not written anymore.....

we can quite legitimately, without needing any kind of excuses.... adopt our own spelling methods to make Kam Meuang easier for an English L1 to learn....  one caveat.....

 

I've been working on this for more than ten years.  that's meant as a caution... but socially in groups of Thai... we cannot expect.. nor are Thai folks even aware.... as well as many farlang.... when they collectively switch to Kam Mueang from Pasa Thai... not just when farlang are present.. or other foreigners.. but when Thai folks from Bangkok are around as well.  and we are then all left out.  which is horrific. 

so.... ten years and counting.....  but the good news is you can reduce all of the Thai vowels  [ and actually could all of the Thai dialects maybe... but why bother? ]  pretty much, and very successfully, to just 13 graphemes.

which is very familiar and comfortable for English L1 especially because we butcher all of ours, and we have just as many as Thai do.... down to just 5 placeholders. 5!
 

[ plus a simple trick for Kam Mueang that quickly indicates pitch tone, contour and "duration" as well ]

that's a huuuuuge advantage over Pasa Thai..... and you need those advantages with Kam Mueang because 3rd party material is all but nonexistent for non Thai L1.
 

yeah and 6 tones. with what I have found where I live that****both**** of the high tones, and only the top two (in pitch).... have glottalized stops... one of them quite distinctively..... that drive the local and younger crowd... especially female ones... absolutely nuts!!!!!! and older Thai folk, around my age, look like they are in cardiac arrest.. but only at first and then they want to talk to me.. in Kam Mueang.. at 5,000 miles per hour!!!!

so it's fun!!!!!

the young girls will always go "that is not how the *****Thai***** people pronounce XXXXXX!!!!!!!" [ in spite of that statement being 100% incorrect, and I know it....... and so do they..... but they still have to repeat the mantra.... it's quite a system and..... it ****is**** what it means to be "Thai"........... it's the whole ball of wax ].


that they either go nuts or have a heart attack is proof.


it's also why *****EVERYONE****........ including farlang....... will tell you to study Pasa Thai...... and give you all kinds of nonsense and crack jokes etc. as they always do when they know they are rubbing up against the very reason and only thing that makes them Thai.
 

but it is how we speak where I live. 24/7/365... even so in 2560.

unless someone has their TV turned on.
 

 

Edited May 23, 2017 by maewang99

[BobBKK]

Does anyone know what 'mei leang' means?  I think it's something like 'Boss'?  also is there a central resource that included English transliterations?  I've got the usual clutch of words  (binjalin, bangadang, bin bok bin bek, pokadok etc.) but there must be a resource somewhere that bring the common Lanna words together in Eng?

[Richard W]

On 12/11/2014 at 6:10 AM, Zooheekock said:

That looks very interesting. Thanks for that but which font are you using?

As this thread isn't totally moribund, let me say there are now some fairly free Lanna fonts that mostly work, though not necessarily to everyone's taste, referenced from a test page.  They work on Firefox, on MS Edge on Windows 10, on iPhone and in LibreOffice.  Lamphun is prettiest, Da Lekh is easiest to read, and Da Lekh Si is best for editing on Firefox - it colours subscript coda consonants.  They'll probably work on an up-to-date Mac, but I have no test reports.

[Richard W]

On 8/20/2018 at 7:06 AM, BobBKK said:

Does anyone know what 'mei leang' means?  I think it's something like 'Boss'?  also is there a central resource that included English transliterations?  I've got the usual clutch of words  (binjalin, bangadang, bin bok bin bek, pokadok etc.) but there must be a resource somewhere that bring the common Lanna words together in Eng?

I don't recognise your spelling, but it could be แม่เลี้ยง, which can mean 'stepmother' or 'female millionaire'.