Corruption---- Right of Wrong ?

[Gonzo the Face]

In todays time, most people long before reaching adulthood, are able to distinguish right from wrong. In fact this may be termed a factor in life continuance. But do we really know the difference.

What is right and correct, for one man, may be completely the opposite for another.

Currently we have a government here in Thailand purportedly on a drive to oust all corruption. But who is to be the judge on what is corruption or just local business practice.

This past year brought two somewhat startling announcements for me. Earlier in the year , somewhere around spring time, there was a poll done by one of the pollster groups , that the result of the question regarding corruption was shocking to me. It stated that around 68% of those polled found nothing to be wrong with corruption as long as you got something out of it. ! ! ! ! then within the past two days it was reported that about 70% of another poll , answered the same to another similar poll question . ! ! !

Now back to the original statement....... re right from wrong...

How should the population of this country , and WHY ?? should the majority of the population fix something that is perceived as correct???

That's very akin to the US Congress voting NOT to give themselves a pay raise.

Your thoughts on this will be greatly appreciated.

[benalibina]

Yes, why would they ?

[sdanielmcev]

How can it be considered corruption if it is the normal way of doing business? Money makes the world go 'round.

[NoshowJones]

This is an excellent post Gonzo, I will be following it closely. I would say one thing though, If you have been a victim of what you think is corruption, or you have had a bad turn done to you financially, or otherwise, by your government, or any other body, then you do it back if you get the chance, and it is to your advantage, as long as no one else has been wronged in what you do.

[slapout]

We go back to the old excuse :"everyone else does it, so it must be ok" This excuse worked until the parents found out that what you termed everyone else, was that sorry individual/misfit, they had warned you, was on a fast track to a prison term.

I have never really put much faith in public opinion surveys, especially here in Thailand, if conducted by a Thai /company. The old farm folks who I have had the previldge of interacting with/knowing here in Thailand, remind me of the old school ( 1950 WESTERN) belief that your word is yours and your family's bond to treating people fair, just like you want to be treated. The majority of the older generation in Thailand seem to be 1950's thinking but they seem to be ignored by those with uncountable wealth and the 50 to 70% of the population who envision this small group as 'everyone else'.

I have definately dealt with and associated with a much smaller than 70% of of the population who, I would describe as honest God fearing people. I just cannot believe that I have only encountered them in the advertised remaining 30%.

[ttthailand]

Is it Corruption.... this is easy to figure out. If you can not do it with transparency it is more than likely corrupt.

I think every country has a degree of corruption but it limits growth and keeps you in a third world status. Look at Singapore, little corruption and very successful. It is one of the most transparent countries in the world.

My vote is that corruption is wrong.

[rak sa_ngop]

One positive aspect of corruption is that things get done. People in authority want to get their money so they ensure that contracts are awarded, materials are purchased and the work gets done.

Look at the BTS extension fiasco a few years ago. The guy in charge was afraid of being accused of corruption so he dithered around before awarding the contract for the signalling system. Result was that the BTS line extension was completed, but could not be operated for about 2 years until the signalling system was in place.

[GuestHouse]

The OP clearly does not understand the meaning of the word "Corruption"

Corrupted morality and ethics are not a justification for corruption, they are precisely the argument against corruption.

If you struggle with that, consider for a moment the vast numbers of families being forced off their land by corruption - That the local money lender of a number or some people in Bangkok benefit from these evictions is not justification for the corruption that gave rise to them.

[GuestHouse]

One positive aspect of corruption is that things get done. People in authority want to get their money so they ensure that contracts are awarded, materials are purchased and the work gets done.

Look at the BTS extension fiasco a few years ago. The guy in charge was afraid of being accused of corruption so he dithered around before awarding the contract for the signalling system. Result was that the BTS line extension was completed, but could not be operated for about 2 years until the signalling system was in place.

OK so, official who controls the stamp does nothing until payment is made - This is an improvement?

Unless of course you are the other person that's just been pushed to the back of the queue.

And if we are going to consider the BTS, can we also consider the Hopewell Project (the name of which was surely a bitterly ironic pun)

[noise]

The OP clearly does not understand the meaning of the word "Corruption"

Corrupted morality and ethics are not a justification for corruption, they are precisely the argument against corruption.

If you struggle with that, consider for a moment the vast numbers of families being forced off their land by corruption - That the local money lender of a number or some people in Bangkok benefit from these evictions is not justification for the corruption that gave rise to them.

The polls Gonzo referred to should have started out: GIVEN THAT ......In moral discussions, corruption is spiritual or moral impurity or deviation from an ideal [e.g., Buddhist teachings] AND that in government/business behavior discussion, corruption is when an office-holder or other governmental official or civilian person in position of power acts in an official capacity for personal gain. .........

As we have all seen in every single poll ever published, (including the ones here on Thai Visa) the poll results is skewed by the framework in which the poll question is asked and the fixed answer options provided. People usually chose a close fit if there is no way to change the options.

With hundreds of years of the people having to live with officials helping firstest and the mostest those that pay upfront for favors, is it any wonder that the poll responders were not too excitied about something was seems just like a way of life. The poll Gonzo mentioned probably didn't offer the choice of "would you have more money if you did not have to pay for service that the official was required to provide for free and, if fact, was paid to provide you? Would you be happier in the long run if it did not exist? Would Thai society benefit? ".... or words to that effect.

[jacksam]

Ask your Thai gf why she "hates" the police.

I don't wish to go sideways with another debate about current politics in place in Thailand, except to say that the same Thai gfs will most likely say something along lines .. .police are corrupt and politicians also

Maybe this is why a lot of Thai don't mind the current situation.

[GuestHouse]

The OP clearly does not understand the meaning of the word "Corruption"

Corrupted morality and ethics are not a justification for corruption, they are precisely the argument against corruption.

If you struggle with that, consider for a moment the vast numbers of families being forced off their land by corruption - That the local money lender of a number or some people in Bangkok benefit from these evictions is not justification for the corruption that gave rise to them.

The polls Gonzo referred to should have started out: GIVEN THAT ......In moral discussions, corruption is spiritual or moral impurity or deviation from an ideal [e.g., Buddhist teachings] AND that in government/business behavior discussion, corruption is when an office-holder or other governmental official or civilian person in position of power acts in an official capacity for personal gain. .........

As we have all seen in every single poll ever published, (including the ones here on Thai Visa) the poll results is skewed by the framework in which the poll question is asked and the fixed answer options provided. People usually chose a close fit if there is no way to change the options.

With hundreds of years of the people having to live with officials helping firstest and the mostest those that pay upfront for favors, is it any wonder that the poll responders were not too excitied about something was seems just like a way of life. The poll Gonzo mentioned probably didn't offer the choice of "would you have more money if you did not have to pay for service that the official was required to provide for free and, if fact, was paid to provide you? Would you be happier in the long run if it did not exist? Would Thai society benefit? ".... or words to that effect.

Yes, corruption.

Its not a zero sum game.

Next.

[northernjohn]

Ask your Thai gf why she "hates" the police.

I don't wish to go sideways with another debate about current politics in place in Thailand, except to say that the same Thai gfs will most likely say something along lines .. .police are corrupt and politicians also

Maybe this is why a lot of Thai don't mind the current situation.

Have to agree with you on the way Thai's feel about corruption. It is just a way of life for them.

That how ever does not make it right. If it is right why do they have to sneak around to do it. On the scale that the average Thai thinks of corruption it is not that big a deal. They do not think of corruption as billions of baht out of their pocket. They think it is 200 baht to save them a trip to the police station. When you get into business it is a different thing a lot more money but the average Thai does not know that the noodle stand he is buying his noodles from is paying off some one to operate. When it comes to politics the average Thai has no clue as to what corruption is. They fail to realize that it is money out of their pocket that they will receive absolutely nothing in return for it.

Also have a look at the polls 1,200 to 1,800 people questioned in about 16 provinces. We won't even bother to ask how the questions asked were presented.

As was said earlier if it is not corrupt it can be transparent.

[Chonburiram]

i'm lovin' it

[manarak]

What we call corruption can take many forms, some are clearly much more damaging to society than others which are benign.

So it's difficult to give just one answer for everything.

[Thai at Heart]

Is it Corruption.... this is easy to figure out. If you can not do it with transparency it is more than likely corrupt.

I think every country has a degree of corruption but it limits growth and keeps you in a third world status. Look at Singapore, little corruption and very successful. It is one of the most transparent countries in the world.

My vote is that corruption is wrong.

The problem is that when corrupt practices are multiplied and repeated millions of times every day, they end up costing society billions.

This goes from say a company being able to buy government protection thus gouging the market (CP), to a govt employee taking a bribe to change a chanote thus not paying taxes or getting unfair advanatage.

It all adds up to costing everyone money AMD wealth creation. That's it pure and simple.

Moralise all you want, but it means that the entire country eventually ends up in a very sub optimal position economically.

[farang000999]

The Thai way of corruption works for those with money at the advantage of those who don't.

[enuff said]

.

The Thai way of corruption works for those with money at the advantage of those who don't.

And how is this different from the rest of the God d***ned world?

You show me ANY COUNTRY and I will show you corruption.

You are blind if you don't see it. money=corruption=everywhere on the planet

enuff said

~

[daoyai]

Very simply, corruption GOOD when it benefits ME, ...Bad when it hinders ME it' all about ME

[chrisinth]

IMHO, we, the majority of posters here, are not qualified to determine what corruption is in this country.

We, as a majority, have been raised using different benchmarks as to what is considered right and wrong.

Corruption happens everywhere, in every country in the world. In a lot of cases, at a much higher level than the mainly open, visual everyday stuff we see here. Some governments have even invented laws to cover some of this and as such, no longer regarded as corruption.

You never wonder why you pay so much tax, in all the varying forms?..................................

[farang000999]

.

The Thai way of corruption works for those with money at the advantage of those who don't.

And how is this different from the rest of the God d***ned world?

You show me ANY COUNTRY and I will show you corruption.

You are blind if you don't see it. money=corruption=everywhere on the planet

enuff said

~

Actually, all over the world there are people who fight against corruption. I don't understand what point is it that you are trying to make? You don't want me to mention that Thailand has corruption without first acknowledging that corruption exists in other places as well?

Guess what pal, you can literally look at a top to bottom global national corruption index and the same list will roughly correlate with overall standard of living and education ranks.

Many on Thai Visa take some great pride in the fact that they can bribe someone to get things done in Thailand. It makes them feel special because in Thailand they are relatively rich.

[ExPratt]

Corruption is part of the culture in many Asian countries , its not a right or wrong its a reality of life

[farang000999]

Why isn't it wrong?

[MrJohnson]

Is it Corruption.... this is easy to figure out. If you can not do it with transparency it is more than likely corrupt.

I think every country has a degree of corruption but it limits growth and keeps you in a third world status. Look at Singapore, little corruption and very successful. It is one of the most transparent countries in the world.

My vote is that corruption is wrong.

The problem is that when corrupt practices are multiplied and repeated millions of times every day, they end up costing society billions.

This goes from say a company being able to buy government protection thus gouging the market (CP), to a govt employee taking a bribe to change a chanote thus not paying taxes or getting unfair advanatage.

It all adds up to costing everyone money AMD wealth creation. That's it pure and simple.

Moralise all you want, but it means that the entire country eventually ends up in a very sub optimal position economically.

Right on. There is a direct correlation between corruption and development. The higher the level of corruption the lower the level of development. Both are well documented on the yearly indices of corruption and development published by Transparency International. Corruption tends to be higher in states where the divide between rich and poor is the greatest. I wonder why? So it is hard to support corrupt practices unless you are the beneficiary but in any civil society one would have to argue against it. IMHO of course.

[sdanielmcev]

Okay, OP, what is your opinion on the matter?

Get rid of an institutionalized "corruption" and you get a tax. Which costs even more, and localizes power to the bully pulpit. Now you have 2 loci where the public has to pay so the elite can maintain their status; the rich and the government.

[manarak]

Why isn't it wrong?

It is wrong viewed globally yet on the individual level, persons are often confronted with situations where there is no other practical way, neither for the briber nor for the underpaid official who needs more money.

[farang000999]

Okay, OP, what is your opinion on the matter?

Get rid of an institutionalized "corruption" and you get a tax. Which costs even more, and localizes power to the bully pulpit. Now you have 2 loci where the public has to pay so the elite can maintain their status; the rich and the government.

Like the Royal Thai Police Department? Where anyone, even pedophiles with enough money and/or influence can get away with anything?