Thai PM: CIA’s interrogations in Thailand, an internal USA matter

[DaffyDuck]

[/i can't stop laughing on your day dreaming proposals about building sewers, clean water facilities, infrastructure, blah, blah, blah. After spending a couple Trillion Dollars in Afghanistan over the past 12 years, Afghanistan has grown the LARGEST Opium crop the World has ever seen this year! Are you on some sort of medication or something. I really can't believe you actually believe what you are writing! I have an idea. Fly to Kabul, Afghanistan yourself ASAP. Try somehow going up to the tribal areas without getting killed. If you survived the trip, meet with some Tribal Elders and tell them your plans to bring them out of the 10th Century. If you survive the meeting, which I highly doubt, make it back to Kabul without getting kidnapped or killed again. Get back on the computer and if you still have your fingers and hands, type a post and tell me how you made out. Chok Dee! You'll need plenty of that! I'd rather hear canaries sing.

You appear to be incredibly uninformed about afghan society and culture, as well as the political dynamics - or how the U.S. has been engaging them.

[kaydee412]

Not coddling dozens of bad guys in order to save thousands of innocent lives is fine by me.

Too bad it's nothing but wishful thinking. If we could get rid of all the false negatives and keep a lid on things it'd be a different story.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/new-poll-finds-majority-of-americans-believe-torture-justified-after-911-attacks/2014/12/16/f6ee1208-847c-11e4-9534-f79a23c40e6c_story.html

That is really sad and I stand corrected. I'm quite frankly surprised at the outcome, especially since the poll was done right after the release of the report. Oh how quickly we forget: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse.

What was that quote from one of Ronald Reagan's speeches -- oh yeah:

“Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits aflame with righteousness did I understand the greatness and the genius of America.

America is good. And if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.”

Well, let's hope he was wrong.

[DaffyDuck]

America *is* good. Just like Thailand, self-serving individual are abusing much of what is good to their own benefits. That same goodness renders many people blind and powerless to do anything about it. That is the shortcoming of democracy.

[DaffyDuck]

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure." -Jefferson, I believe.

[kaydee412]

America *is* good. Just like Thailand, self-serving individual are abusing much of what is good to their own benefits. That same goodness renders many people blind and powerless to do anything about it. That is the shortcoming of democracy.

I agree with you, but it worries me that the actions of these few have such broad support in the public. Once we give up the moral high ground I think we're in the slippery dirt. What's next -- our stance on collateral damage? The military is working extremely hard to keep civilian casualties as low as possible, but with support like this I could see pressure being exerted from the top to relax that.

[DaffyDuck]

Torture of enemy combatants isn't the issue of concern, in terms of abuse. Wall Street being given free reign, constant pouring of subsidies onto the mega rich, and allowing them to pay no taxes are bigger issues.

[DaffyDuck]

The military is working extremely hard to keep civilian casualties as low as possible, but with support like this I could see pressure being exerted from the top to relax that.

There is nothing to indicate such hyperbolic speculation.

Now you're just making stuff up.

[kaydee412]

Torture of enemy combatants isn't the issue of concern, in terms of abuse. Wall Street being given free reign, constant pouring of subsidies onto the mega rich, and allowing them to pay no taxes are bigger issues.

Uh, excuse me? Are you equating war crimes with Google and Apple setting up tax-dodging schemes and the Obama administration bailing out the car industry and generally saving the US economy? If you are, you just lost me and will have to explain yourself. We certainly have huge unfair practices when it comes to big corporations and rich individuals, but saying tax dodging is the same as torture, now that's either hyperbole or you're completely off your rocker.

[kaydee412]

The military is working extremely hard to keep civilian casualties as low as possible, but with support like this I could see pressure being exerted from the top to relax that.

There is nothing to indicate such hyperbolic speculation.

Now you're just making stuff up.

Really? We're in the shits with a war that's been dragging on for 14+ years, sacrificing thousands of soldiers' lives and costing trillions of dollars, not to mention dragging our reputation through the mud and alienating our citizens and allies through illegal surveillance. I'd say the motivation and willingness to end this and go home is definitely there. You just clearly documented that the majority of the people are comfortable with committing war crimes to get this done, so I think we're dangerously close already. Thankfully the US military is a professional one that respects international laws and rules of conduct, and holds itself to a very high standard.

[DaffyDuck]

Torture of enemy combatants isn't the issue of concern, in terms of abuse. Wall Street being given free reign, constant pouring of subsidies onto the mega rich, and allowing them to pay no taxes are bigger issues.

Uh, excuse me? Are you equating war crimes with Google and Apple setting up tax-dodging schemes and the Obama administration bailing out the car industry and generally saving the US economy?

... and there I thought for one tiny second that you were actually capable of paying attention. I've listed three distinct issues, and you concentrated on a single one, and did so incorrectly, to boot.

Wow. Very disappointed.

[DaffyDuck]

I'd say the motivation and willingness to end this and go home is definitely there.

You just clearly documented that the majority of the people are comfortable with committing war crimes to get this done, so I think we're dangerously close already.

You are incredibly adept at completely going off on hyperbole, going down hypotheticals, and completely spouting FUD.

As I said, there is absolutely no indication of anything of this sort being close to happening - particularly as increasing civilian casualties would work counter to 'bringing everyone home' and with the present system of drone strikes would actually take more effort.

Thankfully the US military is a professional one that respects international laws and rules of conduct, and holds itself to a very high standard.

Yes, they are. One more reason why it wouldn't happen.

[kaydee412]

Torture of enemy combatants isn't the issue of concern, in terms of abuse. Wall Street being given free reign, constant pouring of subsidies onto the mega rich, and allowing them to pay no taxes are bigger issues.

Uh, excuse me? Are you equating war crimes with Google and Apple setting up tax-dodging schemes and the Obama administration bailing out the car industry and generally saving the US economy?

... and there I thought for one tiny second that you were actually capable of paying attention. I've listed three distinct issues, and you concentrated on a single one, and did so incorrectly, to boot.

Wow. Very disappointed.

Instead of trying to be cute why don't you explain yourself like I asked? What you intended to write and what you wrote may be two different things. What you wrote is so out of whack with reality and any moral compass and the two sentences are so poorly constructed that they leave more questions than answers. Try again and feel free to write more this time.

Edited December 18, 2014 by kaydee412

[kaydee412]

You are incredibly adept at completely going off on hyperbole, going down hypotheticals, and completely spouting FUD.

As I said, there is absolutely no indication of anything of this sort being close to happening - particularly as increasing civilian casualties would work counter to 'bringing everyone home' and with the present system of drone strikes would actually take more effort.

I think you're a little naive about the situation we're in. On one hand you're perfectly fine with accepting torture and other war crimes as standard operating procedure, but you get more upset over Wall Street taking advantage of the system. A system put in place by the politicians elected by the people. Collateral damage has happened and is happening. Instead of relaxing it we have been tightening it. Why do you think we had to do that? Because of the pressure from other countries. It wasn't our initiative. So we've been there already.

Yes, they are. One more reason why it wouldn't happen.

That's false. They don't control everything, they do of course make mistakes themselves, and they have occasional rogue personnel. There are other actors active and operating as well. CIA for one.

Edited December 18, 2014 by kaydee412

[dominique355]

Does that mean torturing inside the Thai territory is legal?

Or only if done by foreigners?

Or only if ordered by foreigners?

[kaydee412]

Does that mean torturing inside the Thai territory is legal?

Or only if done by foreigners?

Or only if ordered by foreigners?

No, torture is a war crime and thus illegal; see: http://www.hrw.org/news/2003/03/11/legal-prohibition-against-torture#laws for a summary.

[DaffyDuck]

I have written out very concisely what my position is. Re-read it.

... and yes, financial abuses on a nationwide scale are more harmful in the grand scheme of things than imprisoning and / or torturing a couple of enemy combatants.

What do-gooders seem to consistently miss is an awareness of a bigger picture, than focusing on relatively irrelevant minutiae.

[kaydee412]

I have written out very concisely what my position is. Re-read it.

... and yes, financial abuses on a nationwide scale are more harmful in the grand scheme of things than imprisoning and / or torturing a couple of enemy combatants.

What do-gooders seem to consistently miss is an awareness of a bigger picture, than focusing on relatively irrelevant minutiae.

You wrote:

"Torture of enemy combatants isn't the issue of concern, in terms of abuse. Wall Street being given free reign, constant pouring of subsidies onto the mega rich, and allowing them to pay no taxes are bigger issues."

I asked you to clarify it twice which you refused. If you wanted to be concise you could simply have written "war crimes good; financial planning bad".

I'm having a hard time understanding why you would think that financial crimes are comparable to war crimes, not to mention that they're more harmful. Is it narcissism, greed, or envy? Or simply ignorance?

It's remarkable how how you lie about the extent of these war crimes, while in the next sentence calling them trivial. Why are you making a liar of yourself to defend something you believe is trivial? Could it be that you're really painfully aware of the seriousness of the situation, but when push comes to shove you don't really care about anyone else but yourself? That would explain everything you've written so far on this.

I'd ask your opinion on the Gestapo, KGB, Stasi, Securitate, CSU, Santebal, etc, but if what you're writing above is anything to go by I think I know where you stand already.

[Mister Fixit]

This is the most mind-boggingly arrogant abdication of responsibility this clown of a General has ever made. I know Thais never accept responsibility for their actions, but My God, this time, (apart from the equally stupid bikini comment) he has made himself look a complete laughing stock to the world.

We know it wasn't his fault that Thailand undoubtedly agreed to allow torture in the country (look to Dubai for that) but this abdication of responsibility is equal only to the stupidity of the Thai radar people who saw MH370 on their radar, but didn't bother to tell the world for TEN DAYS because 'it wasn't their job'.

Like most people in the UK in 1997 who had high hopes for Tony Blair only to see them dashed over time (I was one), I had similar thoughts when martial law was declared, hoping Thailand would return to normality, but I think I was wrong in my estimation of this 'General', (just one of a few thousand in the bloated top-heavy army of this country) who really ought to quit now and spare himself the complete embarrassment of being internationally exposed for the clown he is turning out to be. Oh, wait, it's already happened, he just hasn't noticed ...

Shame on you, Prayut.

A stupid, stupid old-before-his-time man who is set in his old-fashioned Thai ways and needs to take early retirement ASAP. He seems to be modelling himself on that other person who also published his 12 precepts and ruined Thailand, keeping it 400 years in the past, but this was the 1950's, name of Phibun ...

Edited December 19, 2014 by Mister Fixit

[DaffyDuck]

I'd ask your opinion on the Gestapo, KGB, Stasi, Securitate, CSU, Santebal, etc, but if what you're writing above is anything to go by I think I know where you stand already.

Since you have no effectively descended into pure emotionally fueled FUD, any further expectation of a rational discussion is forfeit. Thank you for making your position crystal clear.

[kimamey]

Anything that happens inside a sovereign country's borders is that country's internal matter. Whether they are aware of it or not, whether they consented to it or not, whether it is done by Thais or foreigners, it is an internal Thai matter, if it happens inside Thailand.

You want to treat it as a US matter, then you should have conferred embassy status on the facility (oops, there is your loophole)

Actually even an embassy is still part of the host country's sovereign territory so all the embassies are still Thai. Edited December 19, 2014 by kimamey

[kaydee412]

Since you have no effectively descended into pure emotionally fueled FUD, any further expectation of a rational discussion is forfeit. Thank you for making your position crystal clear.

That's your counter? I don't blame you; your position leaves no option but a forfeit anyway. Thanks for playing.

[binjalin]

"Nothing to do with us" the property in question was a "little America" that got lost and happened to be in Thailand

[DaffyDuck]

Since you have no effectively descended into pure emotionally fueled FUD, any further expectation of a rational discussion is forfeit. Thank you for making your position crystal clear.

That's your counter? I don't blame you; your position leaves no option but a forfeit anyway. Thanks for playing.

Of course, another emotionally peppered comment aimed at face saving. Knock yourself out if it makes you feel any better - it just illustrates to everyone else why engaging you is a waste of time.