Quebec man fights for truth two years after daughters died in Thailand

[wilcopops]

Yet again illinfoirmed are avoiding the issues that real matter by putting forward hackneyed ideas about evidence....in the end that is just a red herring...it is the handling of the affair and the inbuilt lkack of due process that needs to be addressed.

Amateur Sherlocks would be best advised to follow the advice of their surname and keep their "theories" in their "Holmes"!

[Baa_Mango]

Even to get 20k from the govt' That is really shocking! Although a pittance compared with the lives of two young women- how many other similar cases probably did not even pay a cent? Delpinto case..?

Easy for these families to blow through 20 k just in coming to Thailand to try to sort things out, none the less fight for justice, or truth.

The thing is.. there is nothing anyone can really do to force or pressure the government or countries to make changes. It is a dangerous and often unjust/lawless place, which sadly for young people, my self included, might be one of the selling points.

[silent]

it must be heartbreaking, loose your loved ones and then get no real help from the authoritys in the place they were murdered, killed, etc etc..NO ONE KNOWS

Lest we forget what about the help from authorities where they do live? Right their country's leader's busy impressing people with his piano skills and singing "Hey Jude".

Edited December 14, 2014 by silent

[runningfree73]

I have a friend who runs a business over there and sadly all the locals know exactly what happened.

They were killed by heavy duty fumigation products that are used to kill bedbugs etc. There are certain products that aren't for commercial sale here, and would require a licence to use back west. The room is supposed to be sealed off for 6 or 7 days during fumigation and then another 2 or 3 days for airing out the room. This procedure was not followed. This is without question a case where the hotel owners is fully culpable but was able to pay off the Police.

To add my own suspicion - it said the bodies were discovered 3 days later despite being only booked in for 1 night - they probably sat for a few days while these scumbags tried to decide what to do.

Very sad story

That's interesting, and makes a lot of sense too given the circumstances surrounding the case. I wonder if the father of the deceased is even aware of this.

Edited December 14, 2014 by runningfree73

[minikev]

Conclusions.....most posters are jumping to convlusions.

Might it be a case of just using drugs???

I have no idea either, so my speculation is just that, not giving a personal, and it seems, authoritative, opinion on the cause of death??

I hope the man receives some comfort from any outcome. I know tough it must be, having lost a daughter, but I knew the cause prior. That doesn't make the loss easier, but at least I had an explanation.

You shouldn't really just speculate on an issue like this. There were reports they had traces of a chemical in their system which is found in those green twisty mosquito repellents. Apparently there are idiots that put it in drinks as a kick and sell them on the street so unsuspecting people ingest and don't know. I'm of the opinion that is also used to fumigate rooms. For that reason it will be very hard to find the real cause of death unless there is a definite method to see if ingested or from entering the blood stream in another way.

It is definitely time all of the suspicious deaths here were dealt with in a more professional and transparent manner as when it is constantly swept under the carpet it doesn't disappear it just rots away and leaves a smell.

[Deelectro]

The documentary I saw was fairly conclusive and convincing. The conclusion was that it was Aluminum Phosphide. Although illegal in Thailand, they makers of the film went undercover, and were able to buy it in Bangkok within the third attempt at a bug control shop. The sales lady said it was completely harmless, and whoever ended up buying it for their hotel were either oblivious, or had no problems endangering their customers. This is all part of the Mai Pen Rai attitude that is so deadly. To me this is as tragic as anything in Thailand. With the high profile recent murders on KT, I have also been thinking about these 2 Quebec girls, and that this place has a lot to answer for..

Edited December 15, 2014 by Deelectro

[cup-O-coffee]

Sadly, I think it is time for the father to have closure.

As difficult as it is for me to say this, I feel that he has to accept the fact that it was his daughter's decision to choose poorly and visit a place known for issues like this, and furthermore continue to make poor decisions and imbibe.

Yes, deaths like this are wrong, and yes, no one deserves to die this way, but on the other hand, when I look at the behavior of kids these days, and they way they "party" and carry on, then that alone would be enough reason to understand why stupid things like this happen, or why this kind of idiotic, stupid behavior brings the lowest of scumbag native predators out of the wood work.

[onlycw]

Something really bad happened to kill healthy young women.

And I doubt that the hotel wouldn't check the room for days. "Housekeeping", knock knock, then a discreet peek or more...

As for the $ 20,000 payment, how many meetings and then signatures did it require to release the funds? As a former government employee, I wonder. ($ 100 for a Work Permit involved several people...)

All I ever read about this case was here on TV. Wasn't there some industrial strength insecicide involved?

Wish the family could find closure!

[wilcopops]

time and again tourists are dying in Thailand and the authorities main concern is to sweep the matter under the carpet. - the handling of this affair, Koh Tao, Chiang Mai and many others is simply disgraceful

[xylophone]

Most of us who have been here for a few years know why this poor father will never know the truth, and why the Koh Tao Suspects will never get a fair trial: –

– Many in the government are corrupt and are well connected.

– The BIB are corrupt and they take bribes.

– They are also lazy and inept.

– Money is their key driver as it is with many "officials" in Thailand.

– The rich and the elite can and do get away with murder.

– Saving face in the culture allows one to lie.

– They have no understanding of "consequence" for actions undertaken.

And as if to underpin this, 68% of young people think it is okay to bribe.

Live here and abide by their rules and know full well that justice can and will always be bought by those with enough money. So Sad.

[Friendly Stranger]

My condolences to you and your family Mr. Belanger. A parent's nightmare to bury a child let alone 2.

I remember this very well. Does not matter what the rumours were, terrible tragedy. I'm sorry to say that after this long that Thailand has moved on to other foreigner mishaps.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Friendly Stranger

[Friendly Stranger]

Stop trying to ask the authorities what happened You will not get a straight answer. Get your attorney to file a civil case

Under Thai law you can do this just like in the west and it will help getting to the bottom of this whole process

This may be out of line and I don't want to be disrespectful but wasn't the 20k their way of saying case closed?

Edited December 15, 2014 by Friendly Stranger

[wilcopops]

Most of us who have been here for a few years know why this poor father will never know the truth, and why the Koh Tao Suspects will never get a fair trial: –

– Many in the government are corrupt and are well connected.

– The BIB are corrupt and they take bribes.

– They are also lazy and inept.

– Money is their key driver as it is with many "officials" in Thailand.

– The rich and the elite can and do get away with murder.

– Saving face in the culture allows one to lie.

– They have no understanding of "consequence" for actions undertaken.

And as if to underpin this, 68% of young people think it is okay to bribe.

Live here and abide by their rules and know full well that justice can and will always be bought by those with enough money. So Sad.

The difference here is that this poster seems to accept this situation as static whereas others believe there will in fact be a change in the status quo.

i think a lot of people take the former cynical view in the hope it makes them look knowledgable about all things Thai, in reality it just shows how little they understand about brining about change.

[jamiesilver]

Thailand is a black cloud when things go wrong, you will never see through it, because truth here is in direct conflict with Thainess.

[annabel]

Rykbanlor hit the nail on the head. That's a very plausible explanation right down to waiting a couple days to figure out what to do.

As he says, waiting a few days? That's exactly what they did.

There is no way the proprietor would not go to get money for rent when the girls didn't check out on time.

I followed this story very closely at the time and they had booked for only 1 night but after they checked in extended it for 1 more night. This hotel was referred to them by the 2 Portuguese guys that they met in Indonesia and who got there 1 day before them and which one of them accompanied both of them back to the hotel (individually within minutes) on the said night of their deaths and who also left the next day for Phuket.

The man, believed to be a foreigner, was seen at 1:10am with one sister; then again at 1.14am helping the other, according to the time stamp in the surveillance footage.

"The Gazette said the sisters checked into their hotel on Tuesday. They planned to stay only that one night but chose to extend their stay by one day. The report also said the two women went out that night but remained in their room all day Wednesday. By Friday (I think this is a misprint ), hotel staff became concerned and went to check on them.

Read more: http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/police-rule-out-foul-play-in-death-of-quebec-sisters-in-thailand-1.841590#ixzz3LyDLBmUL

And Quoted from

"The hotel, where the women checked in on Tuesday, is in an upscale area of the island, which is known for its partying and as the location where the movie “The Beach” starring Leonardo DiCaprio was filmed.

Thai media earlier quoted another police officer, Lt Siwa Saneha, as saying the two went out to socialize on the night of their arrival. He said a hotel maid sought to clean their room on Wednesday and Thursday, but did not enter because she believed they were inside.

On Thursday night, the maid wanted to check if they wanted to stay at the hotel for another night but didn’t hear any response, so the hotel used a spare key to access the room,” Jongrak said."

[wilcopops]

Rykbanlor hit the nail on the head. That's a very plausible explanation right down to waiting a couple days to figure out what to do.

As he says, waiting a few days? That's exactly what they did.

There is no way the proprietor would not go to get money for rent when the girls didn't check out on time.

I followed this story very closely at the time and they had booked for only 1 night but after they checked in extended it for 1 more night. This hotel was referred to them by the 2 Portuguese guys that they met in Indonesia and who got there 1 day before them and which one of them accompanied both of them back to the hotel (individually within minutes) on the said night of their deaths and who also left the next day for Phuket.

The man, believed to be a foreigner, was seen at 1:10am with one sister; then again at 1.14am helping the other, according to the time stamp in the surveillance footage.

"The Gazette said the sisters checked into their hotel on Tuesday. They planned to stay only that one night but chose to extend their stay by one day. The report also said the two women went out that night but remained in their room all day Wednesday. By Friday (I think this is a misprint ), hotel staff became concerned and went to check on them.

Read more: http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/police-rule-out-foul-play-in-death-of-quebec-sisters-in-thailand-1.841590#ixzz3LyDLBmUL

And Quoted from

"The hotel, where the women checked in on Tuesday, is in an upscale area of the island, which is known for its partying and as the location where the movie “The Beach” starring Leonardo DiCaprio was filmed.

Thai media earlier quoted another police officer, Lt Siwa Saneha, as saying the two went out to socialize on the night of their arrival. He said a hotel maid sought to clean their room on Wednesday and Thursday, but did not enter because she believed they were inside.

On Thursday night, the maid wanted to check if they wanted to stay at the hotel for another night but didn’t hear any response, so the hotel used a spare key to access the room,” Jongrak said."

I* fail to see what discussing or rather gossiping about the "evidence" can achieve.

What needs to be done is a massive cooping to get the authorities to sort the mess out with some proper policing.

[sweatalot]

Quite simply those who are above the law do not want the truth to be told, so how are you going to make it happen?

Take this story to Hollywood, or Angie Jolie.

... and don' t forget the Koh Tao murder desaster - make one movie of those

[sweatalot]

Stop trying to ask the authorities what happened You will not get a straight answer. Get your attorney to file a civil case

Under Thai law you can do this just like in the west and it will help getting to the bottom of this whole process

Could be a good idea - but I'm not sure if it works - still TIT

[sweatalot]

Unfortunately this father will get no relief. He will meet only lies, distortions and illusions. It's something that he best move on from. Thailand has no moral responsibility and a culture of deceit. These are heavy words, but my 30 years here allows me this insight. Thailand will start to change quite soon me thinks. Tick tick tick.

" He will meet only lies, distortions and illusions."

or even threats

[sweatalot]

This case and koh tao case, I think that people do not walk around killing tourists for fun, I mean it's always a reason, otherwise I bridal been killed long ago, mysteries constantly, but I know one thing what I read on thaivisa.com is as much trash as I read in the British media, so take everything you read here with a grain of salt.

So you mean it's all the victim's fault?

Wearing sexy clothes for instance? Going to insecure places (=Thailand)

Your PM apologized already. (Not that I don't respect him)

And about the trash in this forum it is by far beaten by that of the BIP -at least regarding the Koh Tao murder case

Edited December 15, 2014 by sweatalot

[sweatalot]

more deaths on thai islands shocking i guess just the norm now koh tao is known as murder island looks like the other islands are up for a race to see who can beat it

Think you'll find the other islands already have a history...

Would be quite interesting for a news investigative team and make it public everywhere

Publicity of crime and dishonesty can help to kill them.

Make foreigners stop bringing money to Thailand - until Thailand gets honest and safe

[catweazle]

Answers to a "cold" case and finding ut the truth about a questionable crime investigation? In Thailand????? Forget it!!!

Just look at the Koh Tao double murder and rape stitchup, or look at the Koh Tao Nick Pearson case... There one can see how serious the corrupt RTP takes possible murder investigations...

[catweazle]

"Make foreigners stop bringing money to Thailand - until Thailand gets honest and safe" pipe dream, my friend - a pipe dream...

[Baa_Mango]

it must be heartbreaking, loose your loved ones and then get no real help from the authoritys in the place they were murdered, killed, etc etc..NO ONE KNOWS

Lest we forget what about the help from authorities where they do live? Right their country's leader's busy impressing people with his piano skills and singing "Hey Jude".

and Sweet Child O' Mine, and writing books about hockey

[fish fingers]

As difficult as it is for me to say this, I feel that he has to accept the fact that it was his daughter's decision to choose poorly and visit a place known for issues like this, and furthermore continue to make poor decisions and imbibe.

Sounds like its quite easy for you to say its their fault

Edited December 15, 2014 by fish fingers

[realenglish1]

In reality a vast majority of cases go by the way side because of Revenue. Police forces in the west have unlimited resources to do an investigation regardless of cost when it comes to a death. While I am not making an excuse Thailand has limited resources for the police and although this is a sad death I am sure they are not

spending a whole lot to solve the case.

I believe it is a matter of resources painful but the simple truth

I would suspect it is on the back burner.

[canuckamuck]

You are right Realenglish, it is about the money, but not in the way you imagine it.

[boomerangutang]

One possible cause of the deaths: date-rape drugs. Beach parties are not uncommon there. Weird cocktail drinks, some may even containing ground-up mosquito coils. Doubtful Thai cops would pursue such leads, because A. it could implicate local guys (some of whom may be related to influential people), and/or B. it would cast a pall over Thailand's tourist image.

[boomerangutang]

It sure seems like a looooooong period of time for an inquest to come forth. Do forensic experts take 5 hours vacation for every hour on the job?

[laislica]

There was a thread on this back in March where the likely culprit was the fumigant aluminium phosphide. In contact with moisture in the air, this product emits a highly toxic gas, phosphine.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/710763-deaths-of-quebec-women-in-thailand-may-have-been-caused-by-pesticide

Google also turns up cases of aluminium phosphide killing people in neighbouring apartments to the room that's being fumigated. The phosphine gas travels through the drains in the bathroom into the next door apartment killing the neighbours who are unaware of the danger they are in.

In Thailand where they tend to forgo the use of U-traps in their plumbing, this could well have happened. The hotel operators fumigated an empty room in the hotel, believing the neighbouring rooms were safe, with tragic consequences.

There's an interesting documentary on phosphine poisoning in Saudi Arabia where several people have died after their rooms were fumigated with the substance.

Thank you very much for the interesting link.

I watched it and learned a lot so that if ever I found myself in a similar dangerous situation whilst staying in a hotel etc, I would know what to do.

It is scary stuff and I believe everyone should understand the effects of this poison.

I found it difficult to keep up with the subtitles so I have copied out the first part of the subtitles which I include below.

BUT FIRST:

A short extract giving a description of the effects of Phosphine Gas Poisoning:-

The red blood cells carrying haemoglobin solidify, clot, and become unable to carry oxygen.

Then all the body cells, including the brain, liver and kidneys are depleted of oxygen, everything just stops as it is.

Imagine that three milligrams only, secretes one gram of phosphine and it is able to kill a child.

Just one pill.

In addition, it also has no anti toxin,

there is no antidote to give to the patient to stop the process of phosphine linking to cells.

What distinguishes Aluminium Phosphide is that it is an evaporating substance.

You don’t have to spray it for it to get in contact with the skin.

It spreads quickly and enters through cracks and openings in the building in the building, from one room to another....

They may be treating one room but the gas leaks into other rooms.....

Be safe out there folks.

Here is the transcript; I make no apologies for my use of English spellings,

Nor for grammar etc.

Video starts:-

Introduce yourselves and your field of work Omar, Abduallah, Ali, Attia from Makkah.

We moved to Jeddah during the schooling phase.

I'm married, and the father of five children.

Tell us about the first think that happened, how did your story start?

Of course the idea wasn't about wanting a house; it was about something they do by themselves.

We'd sit, colour, scribble and write. They (the children) used to sleep together for schools and I used to continue the rest of my evenings in the office. Transferring their scribbles, thinking this might make part of their dream come true.

In time, we got attached to the activity of designing and changing.

I remember this entrance changed ten times, one time like this and another like that, up and down.

I remember the rails of the stairs were not complete back then. I used to hold her hand and let her be on the side of the wall so she doesn’t fall.

Subhan Allah I thought that this was the most danger a child could be exposed to was falling off the stairs.

Phosphine

It was decided that we would move at the end of Shaban. Then we said let’s wait and relax in Ramadan and then move by Eid. On the 26^th of Ramadan I was in Makkah, and left after Tahajjud prayer. I reached around 4 o’clock and found Mysara awake. He used to sleep by ten, eleven at the most. He insisted to sit and have “suhor” with me. Masarra heard his voice, woke up and came and we sat together.

Subhan Allah I didn’t know it was our last gathering.

At 11 o’clock, I came out to a really horrifying scene. Their mother was thrown on the couch unable to move. Mysara was laying on his back on the floor and Masarra was tired and unable to lift her head, she could only move it slightly.

The father carried them to the emergency and by then what happened is still unclear.

All what they had when they came was vomiting.

The first thing that came to mind was food poisoning.

He started asking them what did you eat? From where did you eat?

If the whole family was vomiting then there was something, there was a problem.

His heart started stopping, we tried to aid him, gave him CPR which is pulmonary resuscitation.

Each time he started responding he slumped once more.

We even extended the time of pulmonary resuscitation, over the usual time allotted, and unfortunately the boy passed away.

Of course after the first boy passed away we saw the other heading down the same path.

He didn’t understand what type of food poisoning could cause this.

Really, this moment when I try to remember what happened, is just unreal, like a dream.

Thanks to Allah the mother was able to survive as well as the oldest daughter but Masarra and Mysara have left this life.

It was a horrific on the father and we lived these moments with him.

A father blessed with children that are truly angels, and raised well and he sees himself in a few hours losing Maysara then Masarra. This isn’t an easy event that any person would accept.

We came back again to the father asking him what happened.

Do you have something weird? Is there something in the house? A strange smell?

He said that all he remembers was a strange smell in the building each time they entered or left.

As long as there is an unusual smell there might be poisoning but not food poisoning.

You’re walking through your day, in your usual routine, doing the same tasks at home and work and suddenly a strange disaster happens in your life without introduction and without preface.

We are simple people; our brain does not understand the idea of dying without a clear tangible reason.

All that we can understand is death due to accident, ageing or a disease.

Because you live in a neighbourhood that you consider – in your simple understanding – to be safe.

Without having a daily threat of danger, even if you still live in the third world, it is just safety.

Would you expect that one day you would be too scared to breath?

Breathe something that enters your house whether you like it or not, like a ghost and can take what’s most precious to you?

I decided to find the ghost.

Aluminium Phosphide

So I headed to gain insight with scientific opinion that can answer my questions.

This substance is a poison and we say that a poison is blind.

Aluminium Phosphide is one of the pesticides that is especially used in cultivation, in grain silos, in trains and ships.

It reacts with humidity, secreting a gas called Phosphine.

This substance is used a lot in India that even in northern India; this substance is used to commit suicide.

For the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, when Asian business came, they had enough previous experience to understand that this pesticide is corrosive to all membranes.

It’s like when you boil an egg on the fire; all the protein becomes solid, which gives you the hard egg white.

The red blood cells carrying haemoglobin solidify, clot, and become unable to carry oxygen.

Then all the body cells, including the brain, liver and kidneys are depleted of oxygen, everything just stops as it is.

Imagine that three milligrams only, secretes one gram of phosphine and it is able to kill a child.

Just one pill.

In addition, it also has no anti toxin so there is no antidote to give to the patient to stop the process of phosphine linking to cells.

What distinguishes Aluminium Phosphide is that it is an evaporating substance.

You don’t have to spray it for it to get in contact with the skin.

It spreads quickly and enters through cracks and openings

Dr. Ahmed suggested an experiment on mice to see the effect of this substance.

When I knew I would see this substance in front of my eyes, I took all the necessary precautions and yet I was horrified.

As we can see, these are Phosphine pills; we put them next to the mouse and leave the mouse for a duration varying from six to twelve hours.

We found the mouse dead due to exposure to this dose of phosphine gas.

Okay, so how does it reach people?

This substance should not be used in houses with residents but what happens is that there are some soulless individuals.

They would acquire these substances in large containers, then divide them into smaller containers, and store them without any labels or instructions and each poor person that would enter simple shops asks about a substance that can kill mice and bed bugs in their house.

No the problem is they are told that these pills are better, a hundred percent better.

Yes what he told you is a hundred percent correct; it kills all the insects in the world.

Give me a box and we’ll see.

What do people do? They put it in a box in their house or apartment and they close the door and leave because they can’t sit whilst the substance is there.

Now don’t cause any problems, close all the doors so that the neighbours don’t get affected. Yes leave the house and as you leave lock it so that you don’t hurt your neighbours.

The gas in reality has a really strong smell that is similar to the smell of rotten eggs.

It transmits quickly and travels through sewage pipes and reaches nearby homes.

When the family members start getting symptoms, nausea being one of them, they go to the bathroom; they would open the toilet, preparing to vomit, because there is humidity and water.

This is the most point where the concentration process of phosphine happen.

If you enter the house and smelled rotten fish or eggs then know that this is phosphine gas.

Call your neighbours and ask; Did you spray the house recently? Do you have a pesticide?

How can you deal with this?

The first step is to evacuate the area, call emergency services, and call civil defence.

Evacuate all citizens and then the process of dealing with the substance starts.

A neighbour living under me before the incident in a few months, he was a source of distribution for the whole building.

In that moment we sent a committee and they searched in the place where the smell was coming from and we discovered these pills......

The video now goes on to explain the Saudi legal system, how corruption allows this banned chemical to continue to reach the unsuspecting public.

Another case of poisoning is given and that none of the Authorities have acknowledged or admitted that they are at fault.