Seize property in lieu of payment

[dean008]

3 weeks into a job and it looks like the agency is as crooked as they come

5-10 teachers before me in this one year (according to the students)

No work permit, and ongoing discussion about why the rate they are now talking about is less than the agreed rate.

Anyway the agency have some property in the school and I am curious if I can seize it if payment is not forthcoming next week.

,

My thought are that it's probably highly illegal, if so what other options would I have.

Ministry of education??? I know I could get into all sorts of trouble with immigration, but they have being employing people illegally for over a year, so I would hope the mere 3 weeks could be taken in mitigation, as stupidity, and not the outright breaking the law.

Thanks

[Soutpeel]

Your correct it is illegal, without a court order, your only options are laying a complaint with the DOL or retaining your own lawyer

Not that the DOL is interested in the WP aspect in cases like this, but in addition to the school doing illegal things so are you

[siampolee]

Sad to say yet another ''teacher'' meets the reality of some of the agencies here in Thailand.

The seizure of property is fraught with problems as the person(s) running the agency is or are probably Thai and basically they courtesy no doubt of a tame lap police person or two will nail you down and eviscerate you financially along with your family who will no doubt be asked to cough up for your''wrongdoing and subsequent release.

However you said it was only a ''might not pay situation, you'll just have to wait and see.

Edited December 19, 2014 by siampolee

[dean008]

I read lots of comments about making a complaint at the DOL.

Soutpeel, do you know the process? do they have English speaking staff there?

Thanks

[lemonjelly]

Working without a WP and wants to hold agency property hostage..........

[Soutpeel]

I read lots of comments about making a complaint at the DOL.

Soutpeel, do you know the process? do they have English speaking staff there?

Thanks

Some offices do some don't, to be sure take some one who speaks Thai and understands the details of your case plus any supporting documents/ letters etc

Tell them the story and if they believe you have a case, they will act in your behalf and it costs you nothing

[dean008]

thanks for your insightful comment.

Like your pathetic little graphic you would probably lie down whilst they f***ed you, or walk away without pay and leave them to do the same again and again.

I doubt more than 10% of teacher in Thailand had a WP on the day they started work. If your mother failed to tell you, then "If you have nothing worth saying, then say nothing"

Working without a WP and wants to hold agency property hostage..........

[FritsSikkink]

thanks for your insightful comment.

Like your pathetic little graphic you would probably lie down whilst they f***ed you, or walk away without pay and leave them to do the same again and again.

I doubt more than 10% of teacher in Thailand had a WP on the day they started work. If your mother failed to tell you, then "If you have nothing worth saying, then say nothing"

Working without a WP and wants to hold agency property hostage..........

So according to you 90% of the teachers don't give a toss about the law. Good to hear, leading by example.

Wrong visa too?

[Soutpeel]

thanks for your insightful comment.

Like your pathetic little graphic you would probably lie down whilst they f***ed you, or walk away without pay and leave them to do the same again and again.

I doubt more than 10% of teacher in Thailand had a WP on the day they started work. If your mother failed to tell you, then "If you have nothing worth saying, then say nothing"

Working without a WP and wants to hold agency property hostage..........

Wow the hostility, fact is both you and agency are in the wrong and acting illegally so you don't have the moral high ground in any shape or form

[darrendsd]

Unless you want to face a charge of theft jail then deportation forget the seizure of property idea,

Try the DOL but personally I would put it down to experience and move on.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Never work illegally in Thailand, it makes you a victim.

If you work illegally, they don't have to pay you.

Just report you and deport you.

Edited December 20, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[dean008]

thank you, re jail theft....

that is why such agencys do so well. just give in. great answer. for the record, i do not give a <deleted> about the money. i just feel agrieved about the behaviour of the agent. sadly there are people at the school who need the money.

Unless you want to face a charge of theft jail then deportation forget the seizure of property idea,

Try the DOL but personally I would put it down to experience and move on.

[dean008]

how could you draw such conclusions?????

most people care about the law, but most do not get a WP on day 1. is that to much for you to understand?

I never knew there were so many utterly stupid people on this website until today.

thanks for your insightful comment.

Like your pathetic little graphic you would probably lie down whilst they f***ed you, or walk away without pay and leave them to do the same again and again.

I doubt more than 10% of teacher in Thailand had a WP on the day they started work. If your mother failed to tell you, then "If you have nothing worth saying, then say nothing"

Working without a WP and wants to hold agency property hostage..........

So according to you 90% of the teachers don't give a toss about the law. Good to hear, leading by example.

Wrong visa too?

[ozziepete]

So if you are not worried about the money then why do you want to seize the property? But I agree with the others YOU are just as bad as them by not having a WP. You sound like the typical whinger that wants to cheat the system but when the system screws you then you will have a cry.

P.S you seem to have a real F%C@$& up attitude for a teacher.

thank you, re jail theft....

that is why such agencys do so well. just give in. great answer. for the record, i do not give a <deleted> about the money. i just feel agrieved about the behaviour of the agent. sadly there are people at the school who need the money.

Unless you want to face a charge of theft jail then deportation forget the seizure of property idea,

Try the DOL but personally I would put it down to experience and move on.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

how could you draw such conclusions?????

most people care about the law, but most do not get a WP on day 1. is that to much for you to understand?

I never knew there were so many utterly stupid people on this website until today.

If they don't provide a work permit, you don't start work. It's against the law.

But be sure the school is in on it.

Probably split the wage 50/50 for school director/agent.

Over a year with many teachers, it's a scam worth doing.

As for stupid, most of us don't work for free, or without a WP.

[djayz]

I haven't experienced anything like this before myself, but from other experiences I've had/heard about, it seems wiser to simply chalk it down to a bad experience and walk away from it. I understand your frustration at (eventually) not being paid the negotiated rate, but sometimes trying to get "what's rightfully yours" can take a lot of time, money and a lot of nerves.

One thing I've noticed here is you have a better chance of getting what you want by staying calm, always being cool-headed and polite BUT firm. I know it's easier said than done.

As other people have pointed out, legally you're in the wrong for working without a WP so that probably doesn't help your case much either AND you don't know who is behind this "agency" (cops, politicians, mafia?).

Good luck.

[Soutpeel]

how could you draw such conclusions?????

most people care about the law, but most do not get a WP on day 1. is that to much for you to understand?

I never knew there were so many utterly stupid people on this website until today.

thanks for your insightful comment.

Like your pathetic little graphic you would probably lie down whilst they f***ed you, or walk away without pay and leave them to do the same again and again.

I doubt more than 10% of teacher in Thailand had a WP on the day they started work. If your mother failed to tell you, then "If you have nothing worth saying, then say nothing"

Working without a WP and wants to hold agency property hostage..........

So according to you 90% of the teachers don't give a toss about the law. Good to hear, leading by example.

Wrong visa too?

WOW what a completely arrogant little individual you are calling other people stupid, I did start out on this thread trying to be helpful to you, but now can see your just another whinger full of self entitlement with an attitude

[Sheryl]

You must be joking.

In what country do police overlook theft of property because the thief had a grievance against the person they stole from??

At best your proposed course of action will get you arrested.

At worst the school will handle it, shall we say, extra-juidically... not unknown to happen.

There are only 2 rational alternatives:

1. Accept the best wage you an wrangle out of them and work for that, OR

2. Quit and chalk it up to experience.

[FritsSikkink]

how could you draw such conclusions?????

most people care about the law, but most do not get a WP on day 1. is that to much for you to understand?

I never knew there were so many utterly stupid people on this website until today.

thanks for your insightful comment.

Like your pathetic little graphic you would probably lie down whilst they f***ed you, or walk away without pay and leave them to do the same again and again.

I doubt more than 10% of teacher in Thailand had a WP on the day they started work. If your mother failed to tell you, then "If you have nothing worth saying, then say nothing"

Working without a WP and wants to hold agency property hostage..........

So according to you 90% of the teachers don't give a toss about the law. Good to hear, leading by example.

Wrong visa too?

You can start work when you have your permit and the right visa. You are working illegally, have the chance to get jailed, deported and blacklisted.

You haven't been paid for your work and want to take things that aren't yours in compensation. Yes, there are stupid people on this forum.

[impulse]

I started working several months before I had a work permit (not a teacher).

The agency that approves work permits in my field only meets a few times a year, and it took about 3-4 months for mine to make it through the process. In the meantime, I worked, paid Thai taxes, got an apartment, did an extension of stay and a 90 day report at the One-Stop, and generally lived life on a Non-B visa.

Seems like it's a cart-horse thing. No way I was going to cool my jets for 3-4 months with no income while waiting for the government to meet- and my client (in partnership with the gov't) wanted me to stay and work.

Was it legal? My agency told me not to worry- and I didn't. Been here another 3+ years with the WP now.

[Squeegee]

Most of the time a new teacher will begin work irrespective of the visa, however the school will have started the process for all the correct paper work. It's technically illegal as far as I know to step into the classroom before having the WP but as long as the process has been started it seems most people would think that shows the right intentions, and they're going to be legal as soon as it's physically possible.

On the other hand, if the school, agency or employer of any description specifies before you start that there will be no Work Permit then there are no good intentions from any party, and then there'll be very little sympathy, especially if you post this is the case on this forum.

I think the OP hasn't been clear. He may have reacted badly to the replies but he also never specified if he was initially promised a WP or not. If the promise was there then he's not much different to most new teachers that start before the permit arrives; if he knew from the start there would be no WP then he's on a very sticky wicket.

If it's the latter case, he's out of his tiny mind to be considering theft. He should wait for his money and do a disappearing act form this school and agency, learn a lesson about making himself vulnerable and find something distinctly better.

Unfortunately, I suspect the latter (no promise of WP) is the case or why did the OP not say so in the first place?

[Soutpeel]

I started working several months before I had a work permit (not a teacher).

The agency that approves work permits in my field only meets a few times a year, and it took about 3-4 months for mine to make it through the process. In the meantime, I worked, paid Thai taxes, got an apartment, did an extension of stay and a 90 day report at the One-Stop, and generally lived life on a Non-B visa.

Seems like it's a cart-horse thing. No way I was going to cool my jets for 3-4 months with no income while waiting for the government to meet- and my client (in partnership with the gov't) wanted me to stay and work.

Was it legal? My agency told me not to worry- and I didn't. Been here another 3+ years with the WP now.

The fact is while one is officially "under consideration" by the DOL, certainly in the case of Rayong DOL a person can work until the blue book has been issued, when I first came to Thailand to work my WP was issued in Rayong and it was a question I asked them, and they indicated it was fine to do this, in this instance the first time round it took 8 weeks for the blue book to be issued, when I moved companies a few years later, same process took a week

[dean008]

no, according to me and my experience work wermits are provided post employment

thanks for your insightful comment.

Like your pathetic little graphic you would probably lie down whilst they f***ed you, or walk away without pay and leave them to do the same again and again.

I doubt more than 10% of teacher in Thailand had a WP on the day they started work. If your mother failed to tell you, then "If you have nothing worth saying, then say nothing"

Working without a WP and wants to hold agency property hostage..........

So according to you 90% of the teachers don't give a toss about the law. Good to hear, leading by example.

Wrong visa too?

[dean008]

thank you for your earlier reply. the hostility is based on a belief that it is standard to obtain a work permit prior to working, that is generaly not the case

thanks for your insightful comment.
Like your pathetic little graphic you would probably lie down whilst they f***ed you, or walk away without pay and leave them to do the same again and again.
I doubt more than 10% of teacher in Thailand had a WP on the day they started work. If your mother failed to tell you, then "If you have nothing worth saying, then say nothing"

Working without a WP and wants to hold agency property hostage..........

Wow the hostility, fact is both you and agency are in the wrong and acting illegally so you don't have the moral high ground in any shape or form

[dean008]

thank you for your reply. I however believe it is worth fighting for, because as far as i can see the agencys work above the law and need to be stopped

Unless you want to face a charge of theft jail then deportation forget the seizure of property idea,

Try the DOL but personally I would put it down to experience and move on.

[dean008]

there was no promise of a WP you are correct. sorry for the underlined.however the contract stipulates a WP will be provided. Thankfully I do not rely on the money but I simply wanted to understand the legal situation and support others who are abused by agencys. Thank you

Most of the time a new teacher will begin work irrespective of the visa, however the school will have started the process for all the correct paper work. It's technically illegal as far as I know to step into the classroom before having the WP but as long as the process has been started it seems most people would think that shows the right intentions, and they're going to be legal as soon as it's physically possible.

On the other hand, if the school, agency or employer of any description specifies before you start that there will be no Work Permit then there are no good intentions from any party, and then there'll be very little sympathy, especially if you post this is the case on this forum.

I think the OP hasn't been clear. He may have reacted badly to the replies but he also never specified if he was initially promised a WP or not. If the promise was there then he's not much different to most new teachers that start before the permit arrives; if he knew from the start there would be no WP then he's on a very sticky wicket.

If it's the latter case, he's out of his tiny mind to be considering theft. He should wait for his money and do a disappearing act form this school and agency, learn a lesson about making himself vulnerable and find something distinctly better.

Unfortunately, I suspect the latter (no promise of WP) is the case or why did the OP not say so in the first place?

[dean008]

principle

So if you are not worried about the money then why do you want to seize the property? But I agree with the others YOU are just as bad as them by not having a WP. You sound like the typical whinger that wants to cheat the system but when the system screws you then you will have a cry.

P.S you seem to have a real F%C@$& up attitude for a teacher.

thank you, re jail theft....

that is why such agencys do so well. just give in. great answer. for the record, i do not give a <deleted> about the money. i just feel agrieved about the behaviour of the agent. sadly there are people at the school who need the money.

Unless you want to face a charge of theft jail then deportation forget the seizure of property idea,

Try the DOL but personally I would put it down to experience and move on.

[dean008]

thank you for all of your answers and if my replies offended I am sorry, but you should look at your responses first. As far as I can see (never worked for an agency until 3 weeks ago) some agents pay off the directors to buy a contract and then cheat the teachers and spoil childrens education due to a rapid turnover of teachers as a result of non or late payment, The school directors get rich,, the agents get rich, the students do not learn. Forgive me if I have a concern about the students education, but I do. I will not sieze any property but I have contacted the MOE and MOL. The money is not that important to me, but the principle is. If anyone in authority in Thailand is looking at this I suspect you will find it worthwhile to investigate all agents and all schools, you will find a disparity of income to assets of the agents and directors. maybe I am dreaming that this will be resolved, but why not? Thats the last you will hear from me. Thank You

[FritsSikkink]

no, according to me and my experience work wermits are provided post employment

thanks for your insightful comment.

Like your pathetic little graphic you would probably lie down whilst they f***ed you, or walk away without pay and leave them to do the same again and again.

I doubt more than 10% of teacher in Thailand had a WP on the day they started work. If your mother failed to tell you, then "If you have nothing worth saying, then say nothing"

Working without a WP and wants to hold agency property hostage..........

So according to you 90% of the teachers don't give a toss about the law. Good to hear, leading by example.

Wrong visa too?

" As far as I can see (never worked for an agency until 3 weeks ago)"

That is a lot of experience.

[lemonjelly]

So, this guy's only been with the agent for 3 weeks, and is mulling taking agent's property hostage in lieu of pay? We're only in week 3 of the month.

Edited December 23, 2014 by lemonjelly