Myanmar embassy seeking defence witnesses for Koh Tao accused

[boomerangutang]

So are you suggesting that there should be some sort of ad hoc independent investigation by some agreed upon independent entity which should take place prior to the trial this summer or after the trial depending upon the results and what evidence was allowed to be admitted into the judicial proceedings?

I can't speak for Thailandchilli, but if you ask me: YES, since the first mention of the crime, hours after it happened, I have harped on about the need for INDEPENDENT findings, to corroborate (or not) Thai findings. I've been coming to Thailand for a over a third of a century, and am somewhat familiar with how crime investigations are often subjective, inept and incomplete. Like the two sets of farang women who mysteriously died on Ko Phi Phi, Thai investigations often fizzle out with no conclusion.

Many of us want the Brit Coroner's Office people to do their jobs. They're required to check for DNA, determine how the victims died, and look for indications of drugs. If they've done any of that, we don't know, because they're delaying telling the public - by a year, at last count (October to October). Even if the Brits tried to put together a DNA trail, they'll have an uphill battle to do so, because Thai officials won't cooperative.

We know the Brit inquest is not a trial, but they could at least shed some light on what happened that awful night - to two Brit subjects. If the Brits want to continue to be hyper-secretive, that's their choice. They can also choose to reveal as little as legally/humanly possible - but it sure looks like they're dodging their obligations, and it wouldn't be surprising to find that the reason is diplomatically related. Every expert working on this case, except the defense team, are paid by government (taxpayer) money. If a person works for a government, that person is beholden to the top administrators (they're supposed to be ultimately beholden to their taxpayers, but that's a silly myth). We already know Thai top officials want a cover-up / frame-up, while shielding the Headman's people (everything they've said and done since the 2nd head cop was installed, attests to that). Does that mean there's also pressure from Thai top officials upon Brit officials to slow and obscure findings? Stranger things have happened.

[JLCrab]

Great ... and who do you think should conduct this independent criminal investigation and under what authority and have it all wrapped up with both sides agreeing to honor the recommendation of the independent finder prior to the summer trial start date?

[thailandchilli]

... and for what period of time would you suggest delaying the trial so that an acceptable to all parties independent authority could accomplish all of the above?

Why delay the trial?

Dna - I imagine 4 to 8 weeks would be enough

Corruption - Hypothetical question as an investigation into that is not going to happen but if the DSI did it then I would say around 8.5 hours tops before they wrapped up the case and declared it as corruption free, that is unless they actually interviewed someone and then it may take up to 9 hours with a full 900 page report to boot.

Allegations of Torture - An adhoc investigation is already underway carried out by the Thailand Human Rights Commission, RTP, no show again at last meeting on the 29th Dec, so no hope and far below the requirements set out by Amnesty.

Edited January 19, 2015 by thailandchilli

[AleG]

Nothing says "fairness" more than putting words on other people's mouth's and judging them by it.

AleG, you did that with me. In response to a post by me, where I said something like (I can't recall the exact words, because it was weeks ago), "if independently (Brit experts) garnered evidence points to the B2 being involved with the crimes, then they should at least be found guilty of rape (whether the victim was alive or not at the time) and be punished severely."

AleG responded by twisting my words 180 degrees and insinuating that I would never admit the B2 were guilty of crimes, no matter what.

I made that assertion ('if the B2 are found guilty by independently garnered evidence....') to show that I was fair- and open-minded re; this case. It demonstrates how my outlook contrasts to several of the posters herein, who would continue to shield the Headman's people come h#ll or high water - no matter what evidence was put forth.

It was a prediction, it is not the same as ascribing motives or behaviours now.

As I said then, past behaviour is the best indicator of future behaviour. To date you have not just systematically rejected any evidence that the Burmese men are involved in the murder but have continued to hold on to demonstrably false beliefs regarding Nomsod and the "headman's people" and the police investigation, you have gone from gloating over how the UK investigation would turn things around to dissing them when they didn't deliver what you expected from them and you continue to hold on to your "posters herein, who would continue to shield the Headman's people" mantra despite of being repeatedly told you are off the mark.

In short, to date you have shown a complete inability and/or unwillingness to accept anything that goes against your preconceived notions; so we will see if the time comes if you'd face facts or stick to your beliefs.

Edited January 19, 2015 by AleG

[JLCrab]

... and for what period of time would you suggest delaying the trial so that an acceptable to all parties independent authority could accomplish all of the above?

Why delay the trial?

Dna - I imagine 4 to 8 weeks would be enough

Corruption - Hypothetical question as an investigation into that is not going to happen but if the DSI did it then I would say around 8.5 hours tops before they wrapped up the case and declared it as corruption free, that is unless they actually interviewed someone and then it may take up to 9 hours with a full 900 page report to boot.

Allegations of Torture - An adhoc investigation is already underway carried out by the Thailand Human Rights Commission, RTP, no show again at last meeting on the 29th Dec, so no hope and far below the requirements set out by Amnesty.

Who conducts the ad hoc criminal investigation under what authority and with funding from whom?

[metisdead]

Off-topic, inflammatory posts and replies removed.

Please stay on the topic of the thread. That means addressing the issues presented in the post, not in making comments to or about other posters. Doing so is off-topic and your post will be removed and you could face a suspension. Digging through other member's posts and bringing them up on the forum can be considered stalking and it is against the forum rules.

You have every right to express your opinion about the topic. You may disagree, but it must be done in a civil manner.

[JLCrab]

From Post #444: What is admitted into the court case would follow those investigations

From Post #453: I would say around 8.5 hours tops before they wrapped up the case and declared it as corruption free,

-- Not really the same thing.

[boomerangutang]

Great ... and who do you think should conduct this independent criminal investigation and under what authority and have it all wrapped up with both sides agreeing to honor the recommendation of the independent finder prior to the summer trial start date?

That's a long question, asking several things.

To put more simply, the Brit Coroner's Office should do its job. We've already been shown that the RTP have failed in appearing to do their jobs. We had faith in the Brits at least doing some serious 'observing' and it appears they didn't even do that very well. Will we continue to be let down by the Brit experts? Time will tell.

[thailandchilli]

From Post #444: What is admitted into the court case would follow those investigations

From Post #453: I would say around 8.5 hours tops before they wrapped up the case and declared it as corruption free,

-- Not really the same thing.

Post #444: "If the DSI was still functioning" so a hypothetical summary

Post #453: Take that as you see fit

Edited January 19, 2015 by thailandchilli

[JLCrab]

What I see fit or otherwise is that The Judicial Procedure of Thailand -- for some of you -- is but putty in your hands.

Edited January 19, 2015 by JLCrab

[boomerangutang]

What I see fit or otherwise is that The Judicial Procedure of Thailand -- for some of you -- is but putty in your hands.

Am I a top Thai official or an influential mafia-like VIP?

Edited January 20, 2015 by boomerangutang

[JLCrab]

What I see fit or otherwise is that The Judicial Procedure of Thailand -- for some of you -- is but putty in your hands.

Am I a top Thai official or an influential mafia-like VIP?

Do you have to be one or the other?

[greenchair]

Does walking man have a goaty beard under the chin.

Opinions please.

[berybert]

Does walking man have a goaty beard under the chin.

Opinions please.

post-223227-0-10762300-1420519445 (1)-1.jpg

post-223227-0-23285100-1420519434-1.jpg

post-223227-0-74164500-1419216100.png

Post a picture that shows his chin and I will give you an answer.

[greenchair]

Can't be that many guys on KT with a goaty beard

[berybert]

Do you have any proof they are one of the same ?

[boomerangutang]

10560376_10152449452722274_3888438221108410521_o-2.jpg

Bassgoaty.jpg

post-223227-0-23285100-1420519434-1.jpg

Can't be that many guys on KT with a goaty beard

Who is he, and how does he appear to fit with crime scene scenarios?

[SLESQ]

The happy news is that even in Thailand it is the heavy burden of the prosecution to prove the guilt of defendants by a preponderance of all evidence presented, to beyond a reasonable doubt.

While some here appear to like to play banter games or want to compel others to in this forum prove the defendants’ innocence that is not going to happen, here or in court.

Sadly as most often happens in these forums, very good discussions devolve into sloppy patterns of anger, frustration, and poster-bashing.

We hope you guys can keep up the good hard speculation into what could have happened, who could have been involved, who has knowledge that we may yet locate, and encourage witnesses to come forward to talk to the Defense Team.

I hope you guys can avoid engaging with those few who seek to derail the topic for their own very strange-to-me purpose. They don’t deserve your time to respond. Ignore them please and keep the good talks going.

This is a death-penalty case; there is little that is funny or to joke about. We believe the preponderance of the presently available evidence does NOT point to these two lads as being guilty but we can always be surprised. This is why I encourage you all to keep up the good talk, and the private conversations too that will lead to helping these two innocent young men in material ways.

I’ve just read about a Brit who seems to have escaped Thai Justice and wonder if there are lessons here we should learn more about?

Brit is acquitted of murder according to Samui news. See Post # 6 at http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/793650-brit-on-bangkok-murder-charge-acquitted/?utm_source=newsletter-20150121-1545&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news

I see no reason to talk about that case here, but… that defendant seems to have lawyered up right away and avoided both a tortured confession and the spectacle of a crime scene re-creation that suspects don't have to perform in, but are tricked into if they don't know or have counsel.

Perhaps some of you know that just acquitted man’s lawyer. We would like to try to contact him. Send me a private message (click on my Avatar and ID to the upper left here) and please tell me.

[JLCrab]

Great -- so someone in Thailand was acquitted of murder although it seems he was somehow involved in the the deceased's falling off of a 5th floor balcony and you want to know how he and his lawyer got away with it.

[berybert]

Brit is acquitted of murder according to Samui news. See Post # 6 at http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/793650-brit-on-bangkok-murder-charge-acquitted/?utm_source=newsletter-20150121-1545&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news

I see no reason to talk about that case here, but… that defendant seems to have lawyered up right away and avoided both a tortured confession and the spectacle of a crime scene re-creation that suspects don't have to perform in, but are tricked into if they don't know or have counsel.

Perhaps some of you know that just acquitted man’s lawyer. We would like to try to contact him. Send me a private message (click on my Avatar and ID to the upper left here) and please tell me.

10846384_10205709046393824_4992774214714826275_n.jpg

This British guy spent Christmas in the UK. Why on earth are these two lads still in jail ? Seems to me the Burmese government have forgotten about them.

They should have been out on bail weeks ago.

[berybert]

Personally I think you should be glad the Burmese did the crime scene re-enactment. It showed the whole thing to be the joke it was.

Edited January 21, 2015 by berybert

[greenchair]

Do you have any proof they are one of the same ?

Just sayin, look around a bit. See what's out there. After all we would not want to follow in rtp footsteps. Focus on a couple of people and forget about all the rest that were out that night. Everyone's a suspect.

[greenchair]

Great -- so someone in Thailand was acquitted of murder although it seems he was somehow involved in the the deceased's falling off of a 5th floor balcony and you want to know how he and his lawyer got away with it.

No they are wise enough

To know this lawyer knows the ropes better than them.

They are humble enough to put the boys before their own pride.

These boys need all the help they can get. Even from silly old posters on thai visa. That lawyer would be a huge asset. Great move by the defense.

[JLCrab]

Great -- so someone in Thailand was acquitted of murder although it seems he was somehow involved in the the deceased's falling off of a 5th floor balcony and you want to know how he and his lawyer got away with it.

No they are wise enough

To know this lawyer knows the ropes better than them.

They are humble enough to put the boys before their own pride.

These boys need all the help they can get. Even from silly old posters on thai visa. That lawyer would be a huge asset. Great move by the defense.

Yes -- but knowing how to get someone off when your client actually may have done it never hurts.

[AleG]

"I hope you guys can avoid engaging with those few who seek to derail the topic for their own very strange-to-me purpose. They don’t deserve your time to respond. Ignore them please and keep the good talks going."

As opposed to those having the very clear purpose of raising money for the defense of two men accused of a double murder through emotional appeals and encouraging speculation trying to silence anyone that calls for rational thought and fact based judgement.

"Fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) is a tactic used in sales, marketing, public relations, politics and propaganda.
FUD is generally a strategic attempt to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false information. An individual firm, for example, might use FUD to invite unfavorable opinions and speculation about a competitor"

[thailandchilli]

"trying to silence anyone that calls for rational thought and fact based judgement."

Really, see that nowhere in the post. I guess the ignore button on TV is an attempt to silence also is it? A public forum everybody has a right to post within the rules and everybody has the right to ignore.

Those that claim they are the only ones that are able to have rational thought and give fact based judgments probably do deserve to be ignored

[AleG]

"trying to silence anyone that calls for rational thought and fact based judgement."

Really, see that nowhere in the post. I guess the ignore button on TV is an attempt to silence also is it? A public forum everybody has a right to post within the rules and everybody has the right to ignore.

Those that claim they are the only ones that are able to have rational thought and give fact based judgments probably do deserve to be ignored

Encouraging people to ignore dissenting opinions is an attempt to silence those people.

"Those that claim they are the only ones that are able to have rational thought and give fact based judgments probably do deserve to be ignored"

Ain't that ironic...

I didn't say what you claim I said, I've already lost count how many times you resort to putting words in my mouth to make a point.

Any comments on the implications of using propaganda to manipulate public opinion vis-a-vis the concept of a Fair and Transparent trial?

[thailandchilli]

"trying to silence anyone that calls for rational thought and fact based judgement."

Really, see that nowhere in the post. I guess the ignore button on TV is an attempt to silence also is it? A public forum everybody has a right to post within the rules and everybody has the right to ignore.

Those that claim they are the only ones that are able to have rational thought and give fact based judgments probably do deserve to be ignored

Encouraging people to ignore dissenting opinions is an attempt to silence those people.

"Those that claim they are the only ones that are able to have rational thought and give fact based judgments probably do deserve to be ignored"

Ain't that ironic...

I didn't say what you claim I said, I've already lost count how many times you resort to putting words in my mouth to make a point.

Any comments on the implications of using propaganda to manipulate public opinion vis-a-vis the concept of a Fair and Transparent trial?

Then I suggest you take a leaf out of your own book and don't put words in the original posters mouth, he simply did not say that

"trying to silence anyone that calls for rational thought and fact based judgement."

[AleG]

Encouraging people to ignore dissenting opinions is an attempt to silence those people.

"Those that claim they are the only ones that are able to have rational thought and give fact based judgments probably do deserve to be ignored"

Ain't that ironic...

I didn't say what you claim I said, I've already lost count how many times you resort to putting words in my mouth to make a point.

Any comments on the implications of using propaganda to manipulate public opinion vis-a-vis the concept of a Fair and Transparent trial?

Then I suggest you take a leaf out of your own book and don't put words in the original posters mouth, he simply did not say that

"trying to silence anyone that calls for rational thought and fact based judgement."

You know perfectly well against whom this was addressed:

"I hope you guys can avoid engaging with those few who seek to derail the topic for their own very strange-to-me purpose. They don’t deserve your time to respond. Ignore them please and keep the good talks going."

It's only a few other people besides me who have maintained a rational and fact based approach to the case as opposed to "good hard speculation into what could have happened".

[Chetzee]

@ALi G

It's only a few other people besides me who have maintained a rational and fact based approach to the case as opposed to "good hard speculation into what could have happened".

well there nothing like blowing your own trumpet is there !

Trouble is , in many ppls book your strict adherence to the RTP line as fact , bring into doubt your whole rational .......