Double Citizenship

[Alreadyinuse]

It will not be a problem for my daughter to get a Swedish passsport even though she already have a Thai passport and is currently living in Thailand. Will there be a problem from Thai Government to have both Swedish and Thai passport?

[samran]

No problem from the Thai side. Do a search on this site. This issue is discussed repeately.

[GU22]

Thailand definitely allows dual nationality.

Don't know about Sweden, though.

But, as she is resident in Thailand, would she qualify for Swedish nationality? With most countries one has to have been resident in that country for a minimum period before qualifying to apply for naturalisation (in the UK it's 5 years, or 3 years for the spouse of a British citizen). Unless, ofcourse, she qualifies by right of birth.

Edited August 12, 2006 by GU22

[Jamnjam]

Thailand definitely allows dual nationality.

Don't know about Sweden, though.

But, as she is resident in Thailand, would she qualify for Swedish nationality? With most countries one has to have been resident in that country for a minimum period before qualifying to apply for naturalisation (in the UK it's 5 years, or 3 years for the spouse of a British citizen). Unless, ofcourse, she qualifies by right of birth.

Quote: samran Posted 2006-08-12 10:09:39

No problem from the Thai side. Do a search on this site. This issue is discussed repeately.

Everyone, please check Thai Law. Thai Law revoked dual citizenship years ago (about 13 years ago) since they started having troubles in the south with dual Malay/Thai citizens. Today and for the last 13 years citizens of Thailand can only have one citizenship. However, children under the age of 21 can have two citizenships but must make a decision when they turn 21 years of age.

I wouldn't take anything related to Law in this forum for granted, including my knowledge on Thai Law. Seek out a Thai Lawyer to make sure of your Thai partner's rights, especially before buying property in Thailand.

[Old Man River]

Thailand definitely allows dual nationality.

Don't know about Sweden, though.

But, as she is resident in Thailand, would she qualify for Swedish nationality? With most countries one has to have been resident in that country for a minimum period before qualifying to apply for naturalisation (in the UK it's 5 years, or 3 years for the spouse of a British citizen). Unless, ofcourse, she qualifies by right of birth.

Quote: samran Posted 2006-08-12 10:09:39

No problem from the Thai side. Do a search on this site. This issue is discussed repeately.

Everyone, please check Thai Law. Thai Law revoked dual citizenship years ago (about 13 years ago) since they started having troubles in the south with dual Malay/Thai citizens. Today and for the last 13 years citizens of Thailand can only have one citizenship. However, children under the age of 21 can have two citizenships but must make a decision when they turn 21 years of age.

I wouldn't take anything related to Law in this forum for granted, including my knowledge on Thai Law. Seek out a Thai Lawyer to make sure of your Thai partner's rights, especially before buying property in Thailand.

Your second paragraph is correct. Your first one is not.

[samran]

Everyone, please check Thai Law. Thai Law revoked dual citizenship years ago (about 13 years ago) since they started having troubles in the south with dual Malay/Thai citizens. Today and for the last 13 years citizens of Thailand can only have one citizenship. However, children under the age of 21 can have two citizenships but must make a decision when they turn 21 years of age.

I've read, re-read, and then read again, the Nationality Act of 1992 (Thai version). Have you? I guess not, as you are feeding this forum utmost cr@p as far as this issue is concened.

As for illegality of dual Malaysian/Thai nationality. Of course it is illegal, as Malaysian law prohibits dual nationality in all forms for Malaysian nationals. So in that instance, it is illegal, but not from the perspective of Thailand.

[Farma]

There is a comprehensive chart showing the eligibility of children born to a Thai person on the Thai embassy DC website. http://www.thaiembdc.org/consular/con_info...htm#nationality

"According to the Thai Nationality Act (2535 B.E.), it has opened a possibility for a person, born of a father or a mother of Thai nationality, whether within or outside the Thai Kingdom, to acquire Thai nationality. "

Most asked questions concerning Thai Citizenship issues

1. Whether a person of Thai nationality who has married an alien and acquire nationality of his/her husband /wife lose his/her Thai nationality ?

The person is still a Thai nationality unless:- - He/She desires to renounce Thai nationality by declaring his/her intention to the competent authority. -His/Her Thai nationality is revoked by the Government of the Kingdom of Thailand.

From http://www.multiplecitizenship.com/wscl/ws_SWEDEN.html

DUAL CITIZENSHIP: NOT RECOGNIZED. Exceptions: Child who obtains a foreign citizenship through birth abroad or by having parents of different nationalities may retain dual citizenship. However, if the child was born abroad and has never resided in Sweden, Swedish citizenship will be lost at age 22 unless an application to retain it is made.

Any Swedish citizen can retain dual citizenship, as long as dual citizenship was not obtained through a conscious desire to voluntarily obtain a foreign citizenship.

Edited to remove incorrect information

Edited December 1, 2006 by Farma

[Old Man River]

Everyone, please check Thai Law. Thai Law revoked dual citizenship years ago (about 13 years ago) since they started having troubles in the south with dual Malay/Thai citizens. Today and for the last 13 years citizens of Thailand can only have one citizenship. However, children under the age of 21 can have two citizenships but must make a decision when they turn 21 years of age.

I've read, re-read, and then read again, the Nationality Act of 1992 (Thai version). Have you? I guess not, as you are feeding this forum utmost cr@p as far as this issue is concened.

As for illegality of dual Malaysian/Thai nationality. Of course it is illegal, as Malaysian law prohibits dual nationality in all forms for Malaysian nationals. So in that instance, it is illegal, but not from the perspective of Thailand.

Khun Samran, I have read the English translation of the Act. In principal, are there any differences from the legal (Thai) version?

Jamnjam, you should know that only His Majesty the King can change a law in Thailand. What has confused people is talk by the previous PM on emergency measures for the south, which made no sense since, as Khun Samran has pointed out, wasn't allowed on the other side anyway.

[samran]

From http://www.multiplecitizenship.com/wscl/ws_THAILAND.html

DUAL CITIZENSHIP: NOT RECOGNIZED. Exceptions:

Child born abroad to Thai parents, who obtains the citizenship of the foreign country of birth, may retain dual citizenship until reaching the age of majority (18). At this point, person must choose which citizenship to retain.

A Thai woman who marries a foreign national and acquires her husband's citizenship has technically lost her Thai citizenship. Should the marriage end in death or divorce, the Thai national woman could regain her Thai citizenship. This is an unofficial dual citizenship designed to protect female Thai nationals.

WRONG.

I'd stick with the Thai embassy site, which is correct.

This interpretation which you have stuck here is wrong. For starters, the time for 'chosing' under Thai law is between 20 and 21 years of age. There is an option to chose, but no compulsion. Nor is there any penalty for those who don't chose (ie a certain citizenship is defaulted to).

[samran]

Khun Samran, I have read the English translation of the Act. In principal, are there any differences from the legal (Thai) version?

None that I can see, the Council of state usually have pretty good translators.

ed: The issue here is not necessarily the translation. The law (3rd Draft) itself is convoluted and unclear. A key point for those with foreign fathers and thai mothers, the law says something along the lines of "If a child whos father is foreign and mother is thai, desires to keep their Fathers nationality, they must give up their thai nationality in the year after their 20th birthday".

This raises a few interesting questions.

- Firstly, what if I don't make that choice between ages of 20 and 21? Answer: Nothing. I keep my Thai Passport.

- Secondly, what power does the Thai government have in stripping my Australian nationality away from me? None. The thai government can't say "well son, if you want to keep your Aussie passport, you better give up your Thai one....". The Thai government has NO juristiction over deciding my right to be an Australian. That is the perview of the Australian government and only the Australian government, which in my case is happy for me to have as many passports as I bloody well like.

But, even in this second case, what is the penalty for not making a choice? None.

The law was written in this was (I belive) as a sop to the nationalist hard heads who wanted (at least) a prohibition of dual nationality, as it has been under the 1st and 2nd drafts of the Nationality Act. Fact of the matter is, there are toooooo many children of hi-so's and people in power who have two passports. A certain Mr Pantongtae Shinawatra comes to mind.

So the law was written on the face of it to look stern. When in fact it is barely enforceable on this particlar matter.

[Old Man River]

Khun Samran, I have read the English translation of the Act. In principal, are there any differences from the legal (Thai) version?

None that I can see, the Council of state usually have pretty good translators.

Thanks. One day I will learn to read Thai, but probably not in this lifetime.

[samran]

Khun Samran, I have read the English translation of the Act. In principal, are there any differences from the legal (Thai) version?

None that I can see, the Council of state usually have pretty good translators.

Thanks. One day I will learn to read Thai, but probably not in this lifetime.

I edited my previous reply and have given an expanded explaination.

[Jamnjam]

Everyone, please check Thai Law. Thai Law revoked dual citizenship years ago (about 13 years ago) since they started having troubles in the south with dual Malay/Thai citizens. Today and for the last 13 years citizens of Thailand can only have one citizenship. However, children under the age of 21 can have two citizenships but must make a decision when they turn 21 years of age.

I've read, re-read, and then read again, the Nationality Act of 1992 (Thai version). Have you? I guess not, as you are feeding this forum utmost cr@p as far as this issue is concened.

As for illegality of dual Malaysian/Thai nationality. Of course it is illegal, as Malaysian law prohibits dual nationality in all forms for Malaysian nationals. So in that instance, it is illegal, but not from the perspective of Thailand.

It is quite obvious, from your reaction, that you are blinded by some faith in your own self knowledge. Too bad.

I can state the act word for word and have both Thai and English versions, know of its history and changes.

Anyway, for those who are not so cemented in place, then go get the act that Samran so nicely stated, Thai or English version as they state the same, go to chapter 2 - Loss of Thai Nationality. In this chapter, section 13 and section 22 are probably of most interest to most people on this forum. Section 13 is from the original act of 2508. It is a customary statement. In Thai customs, Thai men are seen as leaders of the household and hence Thai law is written with this old custom kept in mind. Section 13 says:

A woman of Thai nationality who marries an alien and may acquire the nationality of her husband according to the nationality law of her husband, shall, if she desires to renounce Thai nationality, make a declaration of her intention before the competent official according to the form and in the manner prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

O.k, section 13 is simple enough. A Thai woman may renounce her Thai nationality if she desires and if she is nationalised as an alien.

Section 22 was added in an amendment made in 2535. Section 22 says:

A person of Thai nationality who has been naturalised as an alien, or who has renounced Thai nationality, or whose Thai nationality has been revoked, shall lose Thai nationality.

That is even easier to understand. But unfortunately most DIY lawyers don't read the entire act, or don't read carefully enough, or think they know the answer before they get to the last section. Samran has read and re-read the Thai Nationality Act as he stated above. In need of law help - get professional help.

Please note that this act was last amended on 21st July 2538 (1995).

[Jamnjam]

From http://www.multiplecitizenship.com/wscl/ws_THAILAND.html

DUAL CITIZENSHIP: NOT RECOGNIZED. Exceptions:

Child born abroad to Thai parents, who obtains the citizenship of the foreign country of birth, may retain dual citizenship until reaching the age of majority (18). At this point, person must choose which citizenship to retain.

A Thai woman who marries a foreign national and acquires her husband's citizenship has technically lost her Thai citizenship. Should the marriage end in death or divorce, the Thai national woman could regain her Thai citizenship. This is an unofficial dual citizenship designed to protect female Thai nationals.

WRONG.

I'd stick with the Thai embassy site, which is correct.

This interpretation which you have stuck here is wrong. For starters, the time for 'chosing' under Thai law is between 20 and 21 years of age. There is an option to chose, but no compulsion. Nor is there any penalty for those who don't chose (ie a certain citizenship is defaulted to).

So opinionated Samran! Yes, Farma is a little incorrect but she isn't acting as a lawyer. She is just trying to suggest something. Anyway, a Thai national has a year to decide which nationality they will become once they turn 20 years of age. After this 1 year grace period, then section 22 of the Thai Nationality Act will be the outcome decider in court. Seek professional help for your children before they turn 20.

There are no penalties, which is probably the main reason why so many people think it's o.k for a Thai national to have dual citizenship. It comes down to what rights a Thai national loses when they become nationalised as an alien. Of course you can hide from the law as so many do. But if the law finds out, then a Thai national who has been naturalised as an alien will be viewed as a farang (a foreigner). What do you have to lose - lots if you have bought property* as a nationalised alien.

*(property only a Thai national could own).

[Old Man River]

go to chapter 2 - Loss of Thai Nationality. In this chapter, section 13 and section 22 are probably of most interest to most people on this forum. Section 13 is from the original act of 2508. It is a customary statement. In Thai customs, Thai men are seen as leaders of the household and hence Thai law is written with this old custom kept in mind. Section 13 says:

A woman of Thai nationality who marries an alien and may acquire the nationality of her husband according to the nationality law of her husband, shall, if she desires to renounce Thai nationality, make a declaration of her intention before the competent official according to the form and in the manner prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

O.k, section 13 is simple enough. A Thai woman may renounce her Thai nationality if she desires and if she is nationalised as an alien.

Section 22 was added in an amendment made in 2535. Section 22 says:

A person of Thai nationality who has been naturalised as an alien, or who has renounced Thai nationality, or whose Thai nationality has been revoked, shall lose Thai nationality.

That is even easier to understand.

It looks like the two sections contradict each other and I am not as sure as you are that the one that came later cancels out the provision that was already on the books. Its about as clear as mud.

[Jamnjam]

go to chapter 2 - Loss of Thai Nationality. In this chapter, section 13 and section 22 are probably of most interest to most people on this forum. Section 13 is from the original act of 2508. It is a customary statement. In Thai customs, Thai men are seen as leaders of the household and hence Thai law is written with this old custom kept in mind. Section 13 says:

A woman of Thai nationality who marries an alien and may acquire the nationality of her husband according to the nationality law of her husband, shall, if she desires to renounce Thai nationality, make a declaration of her intention before the competent official according to the form and in the manner prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

O.k, section 13 is simple enough. A Thai woman may renounce her Thai nationality if she desires and if she is nationalised as an alien.

Section 22 was added in an amendment made in 2535. Section 22 says:

A person of Thai nationality who has been naturalised as an alien, or who has renounced Thai nationality, or whose Thai nationality has been revoked, shall lose Thai nationality.

That is even easier to understand.

It looks like the two sections contradict each other and I am not as sure as you are that the one that came later cancels out the provision that was already on the books. Its about as clear as mud.

It's that same mud that lawyers learn to see through. Section 13 only means that a Thai woman is allowed to obtain the nationality of her husband and she may renounce her own citizenship if she so desires. In a court of law this all you can argue - she had a choice in the matter of obtaining another citizenship and renouncing her own citizenship. It definitely doesn't say that she can keep her Thai citizenship after becoming a dual national. So there is no contradiction.

However section 22, a later amendment, is a hard hitter in a court of law. This states the three reasons in which a Thai national shall lose their Thai nationality.

Be very wary around matters of law. I am not representing myself as a lawyer on this site.

Edit: changed contradiction from conflict.

Edited December 4, 2006 by Jamnjam

[Old Man River]

Be very wary around matters of law. I am not representing myself as a lawyer on this site.

Thanks for the advice, but I am old enough to know this.

For discussion purposes only:

Section 13 says a Thai women who marries and alien and may acquire the nationality of her husband, shall, if she desires, renounce her Thai citizenship (i.e. she does not have to renounce her Thai citizenship). Section 22 says a person of Thai nationality who has been naturalized as an alien shall lose their Thai citizenship. Maybe I am just not thinking correctly today, but I see this as a contradiction.

[p_brownstone]

To my mind the words “Naturalised as an Alien” mean that the individual chose to accept another Nationality (already having been Thai), i.e. made a conscious decision to become a citizen of a foreign Country, thus almost de-facto renouncing Thai citizenship.

This is entirely different – again, in my interpretation – from acquiring Nationality at birth., which may be described as an unconscious act?

Patrick

[GU22]

I have had it confirmed by both the RTE in London and the MFA in Bangkok that my wife and step-daughter have definitely not forfeited their Thai nationality, nor any of their rights as Thai nationals, by taking out British citizenship as well.

One can believe a self appointed "expert" or one can believe the Thai government. The choice is up to the individual.

[samran]

go to chapter 2 - Loss of Thai Nationality. In this chapter, section 13 and section 22 are probably of most interest to most people on this forum. Section 13 is from the original act of 2508. It is a customary statement. In Thai customs, Thai men are seen as leaders of the household and hence Thai law is written with this old custom kept in mind. Section 13 says:

A woman of Thai nationality who marries an alien and may acquire the nationality of her husband according to the nationality law of her husband, shall, if she desires to renounce Thai nationality, make a declaration of her intention before the competent official according to the form and in the manner prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

O.k, section 13 is simple enough. A Thai woman may renounce her Thai nationality if she desires and if she is nationalised as an alien.

Section 22 was added in an amendment made in 2535. Section 22 says:

A person of Thai nationality who has been naturalised as an alien, or who has renounced Thai nationality, or whose Thai nationality has been revoked, shall lose Thai nationality.

That is even easier to understand.

It looks like the two sections contradict each other and I am not as sure as you are that the one that came later cancels out the provision that was already on the books. Its about as clear as mud.

It's that same mud that lawyers learn to see through. Section 13 only means that a Thai woman is allowed to obtain the nationality of her husband and she may renounce her own citizenship if she so desires. In a court of law this all you can argue - she had a choice in the matter of obtaining another citizenship and renouncing her own citizenship. It definitely doesn't say that she can keep her Thai citizenship after becoming a dual national. So there is no contradiction.

However section 22, a later amendment, is a hard hitter in a court of law. This states the three reasons in which a Thai national shall lose their Thai nationality.

Be very wary around matters of law. I am not representing myself as a lawyer on this site.

Edit: changed contradiction from conflict.

Sorry for taking so long to reply, am out of the country in Europe, having done the PP swap on the way out of BKK on a virgin Thai passport with no EU visa

You make a good point on both nationality and the land ownership issue. One though, which is unsubsubstantiated by practice. You claim to have a good insight into all this, can you give us your view on why the section 22 hasn't been applied in practice?

The reason I ask is on matter such as this (and I represent myself who has significant experience working for the Thai government - if we are going to start comparing our metaphorical penis sizes here), Thai officials are especially by the book, ma'am.

Yes, we all know that these same officials melt at the knee when some hi-so or connected person tells them what to do, but the fact of the matter is Thai embasssies and passport offices are re-issuing Thai passports all. So Nok from Issan with a British Passport renewing her Thai PP in London gets the same treatment as some of my very hi-so friends who have decided that Kensington High Street or Switzerland is their scene.

Yes, I realise that your GF and you have looked into this, and consulting lawyers and legal experts along the way. But, so have I. Ones from the council of state even, as for myself and my family this is an especially important issue which would have a HUGE impact on where and how we all live. Their conclusion is simply that alot of Thai law is contradictory, and in especially politically sensitive cases, drafted deliberately so to please all parties. But in cases like this, certain precedents and positions are taken in practice, and in this case, dual nationality has been allowed. Not exactly scientific (and I wish it was).

So we agree to disagree I guess.

[Old Man River]

I have had it confirmed by both the RTE in London and the MFA in Bangkok that my wife and step-daughter have definitely not forfeited their Thai nationality, nor any of their rights as Thai nationals, by taking out British citizenship as well.

One can believe a self appointed "expert" or one can believe the Thai government. The choice is up to the individual.

My situation is the same as yours (except we are Americans) and it has been confirmed by both sides that this is not in violation of laws of either country. I never really understood section 22 since it appears to be in conflict with other sections, but now understand that it came into being separately (as a 1992 amendment). Hence, it is up to the interpretation and practices of the Thai government and we all seem to have the same experience on this. Hence, like yourself, I will continue to defer to the interpretation of the Thai government.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I have had it confirmed by both the RTE in London and the MFA in Bangkok that my wife and step-daughter have definitely not forfeited their Thai nationality, nor any of their rights as Thai nationals, by taking out British citizenship as well.

One can believe a self appointed "expert" or one can believe the Thai government. The choice is up to the individual.

Agreed ... absolutely.

[Jamnjam]

Be very wary around matters of law. I am not representing myself as a lawyer on this site.

Thanks for the advice, but I am old enough to know this.

For discussion purposes only:

Section 13 says a Thai women who marries and alien and may acquire the nationality of her husband, shall, if she desires, renounce her Thai citizenship (i.e. she does not have to renounce her Thai citizenship). Section 22 says a person of Thai nationality who has been naturalized as an alien shall lose their Thai citizenship. Maybe I am just not thinking correctly today, but I see this as a contradiction.

To all,

Under Thai International Law the Thai government cannot "force" a Thai citizen to give up their Thai citizenship and likewise, Thai citizens have total freedom to obtain dual citizenship. Section 13 just emphasises this situation. This section only states the freedom of the Thai woman to make decisions over her citizenship status. Nothing else should be read into this statement.

Section 22 only mentions the outcome of any choice a Thai citizen makes related to citizenship status (dual, revoked or renounced).

The government can only cancel ones citizenship under exceptional situations as defined under the Thai constitution, e.g. spying against the nation.

Now put yourself in a court of law of Thailand. If you have obtained dual citizenship, ones choice of course, and haven't renounced ones Thai citizenship, again of your own choice, then how will this situation affect the court outcome? A good question for a Thai lawyer. This is were section 22 can cost you a lot - in court. The answer to the above question is that the judge will make a decision using the citizenship a person has last obtained i.e. as an alien. Then laws affecting aliens come into play. Nobody can take your citizenship away from you but your rights in law can definitely be affected by any choice made from becoming a dual citizen.

Again, becoming a dual citizen is not illegal, but it definitely weakens the Thai persons rights involving property and employment. If in doubt always seek advice from a professional Thai Lawyer. I'm just using the position I am in to help people to be more aware.

ps. This statement I made is for any reader who comes across this thread. Sorry, as it did seem a bit personal.

Be very wary around matters of law. I am not representing myself as a lawyer on this site.

[Jamnjam]

I have had it confirmed by both the RTE in London and the MFA in Bangkok that my wife and step-daughter have definitely not forfeited their Thai nationality, nor any of their rights as Thai nationals, by taking out British citizenship as well.

One can believe a self appointed "expert" or one can believe the Thai government. The choice is up to the individual.

Agreed ... absolutely.

One has the freedom to believe what anybody has to say. That's up to the reader or listener.

Seek professional help through a competent Thai lawyer or judge.

[GU22]

I have had it confirmed by both the RTE in London and the MFA in Bangkok that my wife and step-daughter have definitely not forfeited their Thai nationality, nor any of their rights as Thai nationals, by taking out British citizenship as well.

One can believe a self appointed "expert" or one can believe the Thai government. The choice is up to the individual.

Agreed ... absolutely.

One has the freedom to believe what anybody has to say. That's up to the reader or listener.

Seek professional help through a competent Thai lawyer or judge.

I asked the Thai government itself, twice.

Both times the answer was the same. Dual citizenship allowed; no loss of rights as a Thai citizen.

[Mossfinn]

I have had it confirmed by both the RTE in London and the MFA in Bangkok that my wife and step-daughter have definitely not forfeited their Thai nationality, nor any of their rights as Thai nationals, by taking out British citizenship as well.

One can believe a self appointed "expert" or one can believe the Thai government. The choice is up to the individual.

Agreed ... absolutely.

One has the freedom to believe what anybody has to say. That's up to the reader or listener.

Seek professional help through a competent Thai lawyer or judge.

I asked the Thai government itself, twice.

Both times the answer was the same. Dual citizenship allowed; no loss of rights as a Thai citizen.

GU22, regarding the dual nationality question, I reckon you have the rights issue just about covered along with previous posters, any thoughts on the land issues brought up earlier, that could if correct throw the cat amongst th pigeons.

Moss

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I have had it confirmed by both the RTE in London and the MFA in Bangkok that my wife and step-daughter have definitely not forfeited their Thai nationality, nor any of their rights as Thai nationals, by taking out British citizenship as well.

One can believe a self appointed "expert" or one can believe the Thai government. The choice is up to the individual.

Agreed ... absolutely.

One has the freedom to believe what anybody has to say. That's up to the reader or listener.

Seek professional help through a competent Thai lawyer or judge.

I asked the Thai government itself, twice.

Both times the answer was the same. Dual citizenship allowed; no loss of rights as a Thai citizen.

GU22, regarding the dual nationality question, I reckon you have the rights issue just about covered along with previous posters, any thoughts on the land issues brought up earlier, that could if correct throw the cat amongst th pigeons.

Moss

Not correct at all. No cat ... no pigeons.

[Jamnjam]

Sorry for taking so long to reply, am out of the country in Europe, having done the PP swap on the way out of BKK on a virgin Thai passport with no EU visa

You make a good point on both nationality and the land ownership issue. One though, which is unsubsubstantiated by practice. You claim to have a good insight into all this, can you give us your view on why the section 22 hasn't been applied in practice?

The reason I ask is on matter such as this (and I represent myself who has significant experience working for the Thai government - if we are going to start comparing our metaphorical penis sizes here), Thai officials are especially by the book, ma'am.

Yes, we all know that these same officials melt at the knee when some hi-so or connected person tells them what to do, but the fact of the matter is Thai embasssies and passport offices are re-issuing Thai passports all. So Nok from Issan with a British Passport renewing her Thai PP in London gets the same treatment as some of my very hi-so friends who have decided that Kensington High Street or Switzerland is their scene.

Yes, I realise that your GF and you have looked into this, and consulting lawyers and legal experts along the way. But, so have I. Ones from the council of state even, as for myself and my family this is an especially important issue which would have a HUGE impact on where and how we all live. Their conclusion is simply that alot of Thai law is contradictory, and in especially politically sensitive cases, drafted deliberately so to please all parties. But in cases like this, certain precedents and positions are taken in practice, and in this case, dual nationality has been allowed. Not exactly scientific (and I wish it was).

So we agree to disagree I guess.

If nothing else I at least got a few good laughs.

For those who are genuinely interested in ensuring they are on the right side of the law when it comes to Thai Nationality Law and Thai International Law then I will simply provide links to such Thai acts. From this information people may make their own informed decisions instead of having to rely on self-opinions of others which may very well be based on self-denial. This is one of many reasons to refer to official law documents and competent Thai International Lawyers.

Link to Thailand's Nationality Act as amended in 2535 (Note: this act was amended again in 2538.)

http://www.ibiblio.org/obl/docs3/THAILAND&...onality_Act.htm

(This has been linked to this forum before).

I have no link to Thailand's International law. This is where it states Thailand's position on dual nationality. If I do obtain one I'll link it to a new thread.

Let's look at another case to examine the Thai Nationality Act a little further.

Take a person who is:

1. Male.

2. Born to a father of Australian Nationality.

3. Born to a mother of Thai Nationality.

4. Thirty something years old.

5. Has both Thai Nationality and Australian Nationality.

(I'm Australian by birth hence the Australian theme to the case)

According to the Thai Nationality Act lets examine the consequence of each section in regards to the example person above. We need to study chapter 2, Loss of Thai Nationality which has sections 13 through to 22.

Section 13: A woman of Thai nationality who marries an alien and may acquire the nationality of her husband according to the nationality law of her husband, shall, if she desires to renounce Thai nationality, make a declaration of her intention before the competent official according to the form and in the manner prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

Well our person is not a woman so section 13 doesn't apply to our example person.

Section 14: A person of Thai nationality, who was born of an alien father and has acquired the nationality of his father according to the law on nationality of his father, or a person who acquires Thai nationality under Section 12 paragraph 2 is required, if he desires to retain his other nationality, to make a declaration of his intention to renounce his Thai nationality within one year after his attaining the age of twenty years, according to such form and in the manner as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

Section 14 does apply to our example person - a Thai nationality, born of an alien father and has acquired the nationality of his father. So this section makes it a required duty for our example person to renounce his Thai nationality if he desires to keep his Australian nationality after he has reached the age of 20. This duty has a time frame of 1 year. And I have a copy of such a form if anybody would like one (in Thai of course).

Section 15: Except in the case under Section 14, a person who has Thai nationality and other nationality, or who requires Thai nationality by naturalisation shall, if he desires to renounce Thai nationality, file an application with the competent official according to such form and in the manner prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations. The granting or refusal of permission for renunciation of Thai nationality shall lie with the discretion of the Minister.

Section 15 doesn't apply to our example person. This section is similar to section 13 except it is for alien women who have become naturalised after marrying a Thai national or Thai couples who have obtained another nationality through migration.

Section 16: I won't state this section as it doesn't refer to this case example. Please refer to the above link. This section applies to alien women who have been naturalised through marriage.

Section 17: With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1) He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more than five years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;

(2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father or in a foreign nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting with the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or god morals.

The Minister in the event of (1) or (2), and the Court in the event of (3) or (4) and upon request of the public prosecutor shall order the revocation of Thai nationality.

Section 17 may or may not apply depending where our person was born. This section shows clear powers to the Minister and Court for reason of being able to revoke the Thai nationality of a person born to an alien father in Thailand. This may be a person born between aliens or a person born with an alien father and Thai mother.

Section 18 refers to people who obtained Thai citizenship through being in Thailand at the time of birth to alien parents. I'll not quote this section as it doesn't apply to this example case so please refer to the link above if interested.

Section 19: The Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai nationality by naturalisation if it appears that:

(1) The naturalisation was effected by concealment of facts or making any statement false in material particular;

(2) There is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation.

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals;

(5) He has resided abroad without having a domicile in Thailand for more than five years;

(6) He still retains the nationality of the country at war with Thailand.

The revocation of Thai nationality under this section may extend to children of a person whose Thai nationality is revoked in case such children are not sui juris and acquire Thai nationality under Section 12, paragraph two, and the Minister shall, after the order for revocation of Thai nationality has been given, shall submit the matter to the King for information.

Section 19 refers to powers of the Minster in regards to revoking Thai nationality of people who have been naturalised (i.e. not born in Thailand). If section 18 didn't apply to our case example then section 19 definitely does. Quite a bit of power for the Minister to revoke the Thai nationality of our example person.

Section 20 refers to a committee that shall be set up to consider the revocation of Thai nationality for sections 16,17(1) or 18,19. The Minister can consider this committee's opinion. Please refer to the link above for more information.

Section 21: A person of Thai nationality who was born of an alien father and may acquire the nationality of his father according to the nationality law of his father shall lose Thai nationality if he obtains an alien identification card according to the law on registration of aliens.

Section 21 refers to our example case except for the fact that Australia doesn't have a registration system for registering citizens. So I doubt this can apply at all until Australia passes law for registering citizens with an identification card and number. Though when and if Australia does then yet another reason for losing ones Thai nationality under Thai law.

Section 22: A person of Thai nationality who has been naturalised as an alien, or who has renounced Thai nationality, or whose Thai nationality has been revoked, shall lose Thai nationality.

Well this section really sums up the situation.

I'll leave it for the readers to inform themselves. I'm not advocating anything. I'm a person who has reason to investigate into this and have done so for many months before I'll make a decision on what to do regarding dual citizenship. It wasn't until recently, when I was given an article in a Thai Law journal that exposed the attitudes and beliefs of Thai citizens that had become naturalised as an alien in regards to Thai National Law, that I decided to checkout this forum that I had been using for other reasons. I was quite dismayed and had expected such responses I had seen from a few people.

There is a clear substantive law in Thailand.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Sorry for taking so long to reply, am out of the country in Europe, having done the PP swap on the way out of BKK on a virgin Thai passport with no EU visa

You make a good point on both nationality and the land ownership issue. One though, which is unsubsubstantiated by practice. You claim to have a good insight into all this, can you give us your view on why the section 22 hasn't been applied in practice?

The reason I ask is on matter such as this (and I represent myself who has significant experience working for the Thai government - if we are going to start comparing our metaphorical penis sizes here), Thai officials are especially by the book, ma'am.

Yes, we all know that these same officials melt at the knee when some hi-so or connected person tells them what to do, but the fact of the matter is Thai embasssies and passport offices are re-issuing Thai passports all. So Nok from Issan with a British Passport renewing her Thai PP in London gets the same treatment as some of my very hi-so friends who have decided that Kensington High Street or Switzerland is their scene.

Yes, I realise that your GF and you have looked into this, and consulting lawyers and legal experts along the way. But, so have I. Ones from the council of state even, as for myself and my family this is an especially important issue which would have a HUGE impact on where and how we all live. Their conclusion is simply that alot of Thai law is contradictory, and in especially politically sensitive cases, drafted deliberately so to please all parties. But in cases like this, certain precedents and positions are taken in practice, and in this case, dual nationality has been allowed. Not exactly scientific (and I wish it was).

So we agree to disagree I guess.

If nothing else I at least got a few good laughs.

For those who are genuinely interested in ensuring they are on the right side of the law when it comes to Thai Nationality Law and Thai International Law then I will simply provide links to such Thai acts. From this information people may make their own informed decisions instead of having to rely on self-opinions of others which may very well be based on self-denial. This is one of many reasons to refer to official law documents and competent Thai International Lawyers.

Link to Thailand's Nationality Act as amended in 2535 (Note: this act was amended again in 2538.)

http://www.ibiblio.org/obl/docs3/THAILAND&...onality_Act.htm

(This has been linked to this forum before).

I have no link to Thailand's International law. This is where it states Thailand's position on dual nationality. If I do obtain one I'll link it to a new thread.

Let's look at another case to examine the Thai Nationality Act a little further.

Take a person who is:

1. Male.

2. Born to a father of Australian Nationality.

3. Born to a mother of Thai Nationality.

4. Thirty something years old.

5. Has both Thai Nationality and Australian Nationality.

(I'm Australian by birth hence the Australian theme to the case)

According to the Thai Nationality Act lets examine the consequence of each section in regards to the example person above. We need to study chapter 2, Loss of Thai Nationality which has sections 13 through to 22.

Section 13: A woman of Thai nationality who marries an alien and may acquire the nationality of her husband according to the nationality law of her husband, shall, if she desires to renounce Thai nationality, make a declaration of her intention before the competent official according to the form and in the manner prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

Well our person is not a woman so section 13 doesn't apply to our example person.

Section 14: A person of Thai nationality, who was born of an alien father and has acquired the nationality of his father according to the law on nationality of his father, or a person who acquires Thai nationality under Section 12 paragraph 2 is required, if he desires to retain his other nationality, to make a declaration of his intention to renounce his Thai nationality within one year after his attaining the age of twenty years, according to such form and in the manner as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

Section 14 does apply to our example person - a Thai nationality, born of an alien father and has acquired the nationality of his father. So this section makes it a required duty for our example person to renounce his Thai nationality if he desires to keep his Australian nationality after he has reached the age of 20. This duty has a time frame of 1 year. And I have a copy of such a form if anybody would like one (in Thai of course).

Section 15: Except in the case under Section 14, a person who has Thai nationality and other nationality, or who requires Thai nationality by naturalisation shall, if he desires to renounce Thai nationality, file an application with the competent official according to such form and in the manner prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations. The granting or refusal of permission for renunciation of Thai nationality shall lie with the discretion of the Minister.

Section 15 doesn't apply to our example person. This section is similar to section 13 except it is for alien women who have become naturalised after marrying a Thai national or Thai couples who have obtained another nationality through migration.

Section 16: I won't state this section as it doesn't refer to this case example. Please refer to the above link. This section applies to alien women who have been naturalised through marriage.

Section 17: With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1) He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more than five years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;

(2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father or in a foreign nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting with the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or god morals.

The Minister in the event of (1) or (2), and the Court in the event of (3) or (4) and upon request of the public prosecutor shall order the revocation of Thai nationality.

Section 17 may or may not apply depending where our person was born. This section shows clear powers to the Minister and Court for reason of being able to revoke the Thai nationality of a person born to an alien father in Thailand. This may be a person born between aliens or a person born with an alien father and Thai mother.

Section 18 refers to people who obtained Thai citizenship through being in Thailand at the time of birth to alien parents. I'll not quote this section as it doesn't apply to this example case so please refer to the link above if interested.

Section 19: The Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai nationality by naturalisation if it appears that:

(1) The naturalisation was effected by concealment of facts or making any statement false in material particular;

(2) There is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation.

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals;

(5) He has resided abroad without having a domicile in Thailand for more than five years;

(6) He still retains the nationality of the country at war with Thailand.

The revocation of Thai nationality under this section may extend to children of a person whose Thai nationality is revoked in case such children are not sui juris and acquire Thai nationality under Section 12, paragraph two, and the Minister shall, after the order for revocation of Thai nationality has been given, shall submit the matter to the King for information.

Section 19 refers to powers of the Minster in regards to revoking Thai nationality of people who have been naturalised (i.e. not born in Thailand). If section 18 didn't apply to our case example then section 19 definitely does. Quite a bit of power for the Minister to revoke the Thai nationality of our example person.

Section 20 refers to a committee that shall be set up to consider the revocation of Thai nationality for sections 16,17(1) or 18,19. The Minister can consider this committee's opinion. Please refer to the link above for more information.

Section 21: A person of Thai nationality who was born of an alien father and may acquire the nationality of his father according to the nationality law of his father shall lose Thai nationality if he obtains an alien identification card according to the law on registration of aliens.

Section 21 refers to our example case except for the fact that Australia doesn't have a registration system for registering citizens. So I doubt this can apply at all until Australia passes law for registering citizens with an identification card and number. Though when and if Australia does then yet another reason for losing ones Thai nationality under Thai law.

Section 22: A person of Thai nationality who has been naturalised as an alien, or who has renounced Thai nationality, or whose Thai nationality has been revoked, shall lose Thai nationality.

Well this section really sums up the situation.

I'll leave it for the readers to inform themselves. I'm not advocating anything. I'm a person who has reason to investigate into this and have done so for many months before I'll make a decision on what to do regarding dual citizenship. It wasn't until recently, when I was given an article in a Thai Law journal that exposed the attitudes and beliefs of Thai citizens that had become naturalised as an alien in regards to Thai National Law, that I decided to checkout this forum that I had been using for other reasons. I was quite dismayed and had expected such responses I had seen from a few people.

There is a clear substantive law in Thailand.

Go talk to a 'substantive' lawyer and establish exactly what the Law says now. It'll cost very little because the lawyer will learn the true position in an hour, and save you wasting more "many months" on the same topic.

[Jamnjam]

Go talk to a 'substantive' lawyer and establish exactly what the Law says now. It'll cost very little because the lawyer will learn the true position in an hour, and save you wasting more "many months" on the same topic.

Doctor,

It would be very informative for us all if you could just link us to the current law your suggesting.

In the meantime I'd suggest others who genuinely want to know the correct side of law to be on to take the doctors suggestion and see a 'competent' Thai International lawyer.