AirAsia QZ8501: Lost plane's request to change course was denied

[webfact]

Lost plane's request to change course was denied
TRISNADI MARJAN, Associated Press
MARGIE MASON, Associated Press

SURABAYA, Indonesia (AP) — The pilots sought permission to climb above threatening clouds. Air traffic control couldn't say yes immediately — there was no room. Six other airliners were crowding the airspace, forcing AirAsia Flight 8501 to remain at a lower altitude.

Minutes later, the jet carrying 162 people was gone from the radar without ever issuing a distress signal. The plane is believed to have crashed into Indonesia's Java Sea, but broad aerial surveys on Monday turned up no firm evidence of the missing Airbus A320-200.

Searchers spotted two oily patches and floating objects in separate locations, but it was not known any of it was related to the plane that vanished Sunday halfway into what should have been a two-hour hop from Surabaya, Indonesia, to Singapore. The area is a busy shipping lane. Officials saw little reason to believe the flight met anything but a grim fate.

Based on the plane's last known coordinates, the aircraft probably crashed into the water and "is at the bottom of the sea," Indonesia search-and-rescue chief Henry Bambang Soelistyo said. Still, searchers planned to expand their efforts onto land on Tuesday.

The last communication from the cockpit to air traffic control was a request by one of the pilots to climb from 32,000 feet (9,754 meters) to 38,000 feet (11,582 meters) because of the weather. The tower was not able to immediately comply because of the other planes, said Bambang Tjahjono, director of the state-owned company in charge of air traffic control.

The twin-engine, single-aisle plane was last seen on radar four minutes after the final communication.

A storm alone isn't going to bring down a modern plane designed to withstand severe weather. But weather paired with a pilot error or a mechanical failure could be disastrous. It's like a car driving on a highway during a thunderstorm. Plenty of vehicles get through bad weather safely but one that gets a flat tire or takes a turn too fast might crash.

Pilots rely on sophisticated weather-radar systems that include a dashboard display of storms and clouds, as well as reports from other crews, to steer around dangerous weather.

"A lot more information is available to pilots in the cockpit about weather than it ever was," said Deborah Hersman, former chairman of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board. But the technology has limits and sometimes information about storms "can be a little bit stale."

The air search resumed Tuesday morning, with more assets and an expanded area, said Indonesia's Search and Rescue Agency chief Henry Bambang Soelistyo.

He said at least 30 ships, 15 aircraft and seven helicopters were looking for the jet. Most of the craft were Indonesian but Singapore, Malaysia and Australia contributed to the effort. Aircraft from Thailand planned to join Tuesday's search.

The search area has been widened, with four military helicopters dispatched just after sunrise near Pangkalan Bun on the western part of Borneo island and to smaller islands of Bangka and Belitung, Bambang Soelistyo said.

"Until now, we have not yet found any signal or indication of the plane's whereabouts," Soelistyo told The Associated Press, adding fishermen from Belitung island were also helping.

The U.S. Navy said it had agreed to an Indonesian request for help by sending the USS Sampson, a destroyer. It was already on an independent deployment in the Western Pacific and will arrive in the area later Tuesday.

Jakarta's air force base commander, Rear Marshal Dwi Putranto, said an Australian Orion aircraft had detected "suspicious" objects near an island about 100 miles (160 kilometers) off central Kalimantan. That's about 700 miles (1,120 kilometers) from where the plane lost contact, but within Monday's greatly expanded search area.

"However, we cannot be sure whether it is part of the missing AirAsia plane," Putranto said. "We are now moving in that direction."

Air Force spokesman Rear Marshal Hadi Tjahnanto told MetroTV that an Indonesian helicopter spotted two oil patches in the Java Sea east of Belitung island, much closer to where the plane lost contact. He said oil samples would be collected and analyzed.

An Associated Press photographer flew in a C-130 transport carrier with Indonesia's Air Force for 10 hours Monday over a large section of the search area between Kalimantan and Belitung. The flight was bumpy and rainy at times. It flew low, at 1,500 feet, easily spotting waves, ships and fishermen, but there was no sign of the plane.

The suspected crash caps an astonishingly tragic year for air travel in Southeast Asia, and Malaysia in particular. Malaysia-based AirAsia's loss comes on top of the still-unexplained disappearance of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 in March with 239 people aboard, and the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in July over Ukraine, which killed all 298 passengers and crew.

"Until today, we have never lost a life," AirAsia group CEO Tony Fernandes told reporters. "But I think that any airline CEO who says he can guarantee that his airline is 100 percent safe is not accurate."

Nearly all the passengers and crew are Indonesians, who are frequent visitors to Singapore, particularly on holidays.

Ruth Natalia Puspitasari, who would have turned 26 on Monday, was among them. Her father, Suyanto, sat with his wife, who was puffy-eyed and coughing, near the family crisis center at Surabaya's airport.

"I don't want to experience the same thing with what was happened with Malaysia Airlines," he said as his wife wept. "It could be a long suffering."

Few believe this search will be as perplexing as the ongoing one for Flight 370, where what happened onboard remains a total mystery. Authorities suspect the plane was deliberately diverted by someone on board and ultimately lost in a remote area of the Indian Ocean. Flight 8501 vanished over a heavily traveled sea that is relatively shallow, with no sign of foul play.

The captain, Iryanto, who like many Indonesians uses a single name, had more than 20,000 flying hours, AirAsia said.

People who knew Iryanto recalled that he was an experienced military pilot, flying F-16 fighters before shifting to commercial aviation. His French co-pilot, Remi Plesel, had been in Indonesia three years and loved to fly, his sister, Renee, told France's RTL radio.

"He told me that things were going well, that he'd had a good Christmas. He was happy. The rains were starting," she said. "The weather was bad."


-- (c) Associated Press 2014-12-30

[bino]

The last communication from the cockpit to air traffic control was a request by one of the pilots to climb from 32,000 feet (9,754 meters) to 38,000 feet (11,582 meters) because of the weather. The tower was not able to immediately comply because of the other planes, said Bambang Tjahjono, director of the state-owned company in charge of air traffic control.

NeverSure / other flyers out there ... can you tell us if this is normal? How often does this happen?

Even though this was a "modern plane designed to withstand severe weather", I am sure that most passengers are not so agreeable. It seems to me that if there are other aircraft in the area tht complicate this, surely they would be in the same weather situation. Would the air traffic control get busy adjusting all other flights to make room for the one who is requesting it, or is it a case like this where they reply with a Sorry- no can do..... good luck?

Was Indonesian Air Traffic Control doing anything at all to help this plane in those final four minutes after denying the request?

Edited December 30, 2014 by bino

[krisb]

These planes can fly through hurricanes. Why didn't he just fly through it?

[HerbalEd]

These planes can fly through hurricanes. Why didn't he just fly through it?

Above it or in the eye, but not "through" a hurricane.

"Why didn't he just fly through it"? Evidently he did ... for a while.

Edited December 30, 2014 by HerbalEd

[IAMHERE]

Like the other plane that went down (perhaps), small details keep coming out, at first we were led to believe the plane was climbing and turning to the left at the same time to get to 38,000 feet. Lie, lie, lie, it is a lie by omission. Soon we'll find out the pilots had a death wish or some other facts the Indonesians kept to themselves.

[JetsetBkk]

Like the other plane that went down (perhaps), small details keep coming out, at first we were led to believe the plane was climbing and turning to the left at the same time to get to 38,000 feet. Lie, lie, lie, it is a lie by omission. Soon we'll find out the pilots had a death wish or some other facts the Indonesians kept to themselves.

Yet another conspiracy theory?

[JacChang]

"Aircraft from Thailand planned to join Tuesday's search."

As usual, after the party is over, arrive.

[khaosai]

You would not try and climb over any sort of thunderstorm activity. You would deviate left or right of track. That track deviation decision would include the location of the weather cell and which direction the upper wind is coming from so to try and remain upwind.

Ideally you would get permission to deviate off track to avoid the weather but if that's not possible you would deviate to ensure the safety of the flight.

Lateral deviations are easier to approve. Vertical deviations are a little more challenging, particularly in busy airspace where you will have other aircraft above and below.

[Baerboxer]

Like the other plane that went down (perhaps), small details keep coming out, at first we were led to believe the plane was climbing and turning to the left at the same time to get to 38,000 feet. Lie, lie, lie, it is a lie by omission. Soon we'll find out the pilots had a death wish or some other facts the Indonesians kept to themselves.

Yet another conspiracy theory?

I don't know about conspiracy theories but there are inaccuracies in reports.

An Australian expert on the BBC said he'd analysed the radar screen shots and that the plane was climbing but flying 105 m.p.h. too slow at the time it vanished.

Now the Indonesian's say no, it was denied permission to climb.

Somebody want to get their act together and maybe report the facts.

[JetsetBkk]

Like the other plane that went down (perhaps), small details keep coming out, at first we were led to believe the plane was climbing and turning to the left at the same time to get to 38,000 feet. Lie, lie, lie, it is a lie by omission. Soon we'll find out the pilots had a death wish or some other facts the Indonesians kept to themselves.

Yet another conspiracy theory?

I don't know about conspiracy theories but there are inaccuracies in reports.

An Australian expert on the BBC said he'd analysed the radar screen shots and that the plane was climbing but flying 105 m.p.h. too slow at the time it vanished.

Now the Indonesian's say no, it was denied permission to climb.

Somebody want to get their act together and maybe report the facts.

I think all readers need to get their acts together and stop believing reports from publicity seeking hacks deliberately misrepresenting the facts.

[mgjackson69]

A change in altitude is not really a change in course.

But "...Request to Change Course Was Denied" makes for a more ominous-sounding headline.

Anything to sensationalize the news...

[HeijoshinCool]

The last communication from the cockpit to air traffic control was a request by one of the pilots to climb from 32,000 feet (9,754 meters) to 38,000 feet (11,582 meters) because of the weather. The tower was not able to immediately comply because of the other planes, said Bambang Tjahjono, director of the state-owned company in charge of air traffic control.

NeverSure / other flyers out there ... can you tell us if this is normal? How often does this happen?

Even though this was a "modern plane designed to withstand severe weather", I am sure that most passengers are not so agreeable. It seems to me that if there are other aircraft in the area tht complicate this, surely they would be in the same weather situation. Would the air traffic control get busy adjusting all other flights to make room for the one who is requesting it, or is it a case like this where they reply with a Sorry- no can do..... good luck?

Was Indonesian Air Traffic Control doing anything at all to help this plane in those final four minutes after denying the request?

.

It's a misleading headline.

No change of heading request is mentioned in the story. Pilots might ask for a different altitude to try and avoid turbulence, but ATC cannot approve if doing such does not maintain separation of aircraft. The pilot could have asked for vectors away from the storm, either back to origin, or another airport.

And the pilot was not asking "tower" for permission. He was talking with Center. And Center, apparently, had lots of aircraft in the area.

[billd766]

"Aircraft from Thailand planned to join Tuesday's search."

As usual, after the party is over, arrive.

How far is the wreckage from Indonesia or Singapore? Thai aircraft have to fly from wherever they are based in Thailand, the whole length of Malayasia just to get to Singapore. Then they have to fly to the search area and return to an airfield somewhere.

Aircraft have to be diverted from their primary task, flight crews at least two per aircraft will be needed plus ground crews, spares and maintainance fly away kits made up, flight plans submitted and approved. Countries that the military aircraft must fly over have to give approval, the base that the aircraft will operate from will need to be able to support extra aircraft and dozens of other details before any aircraft takes off.

Did you think it was as simple as counting the wings, kicking the tyres and flying away without ANY preparation?

It isn't.

[JacChang]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

"Aircraft from Thailand planned to join Tuesday's search."

As usual, after the party is over, arrive. width=20 alt=laugh.png>

How far is the wreckage from Indonesia or Singapore? Thai aircraft have to fly from wherever they are based in Thailand, the whole length of Malayasia just to get to Singapore. Then they have to fly to the search area and return to an airfield somewhere.

Aircraft have to be diverted from their primary task, flight crews at least two per aircraft will be needed plus ground crews, spares and maintainance fly away kits made up, flight plans submitted and approved. Countries that the military aircraft must fly over have to give approval, the base that the aircraft will operate from will need to be able to support extra aircraft and dozens of other details before any aircraft takes off.

Did you think it was as simple as counting the wings, kicking the tyres and flying away without ANY preparation?

It isn't.

Your from the past. All those things are nothing, prepared in advance, less than 3 days to get to ANY EMERGENCY SITE DRILL.

Get updated on your information. Make it sound like we are still in the 1900s. grow up

[Maestro]

The last communication from the cockpit to air traffic control was a request by one of the pilots to climb from 32,000 feet (9,754 meters) to 38,000 feet (11,582 meters) because of the weather. The tower was not able to immediately comply because of the other planes, said Bambang Tjahjono, director of the state-owned company in charge of air traffic control.

The twin-engine, single-aisle plane was last seen on radar four minutes after the final communication.

Source: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/787856-airasia-qz8501-lost-planes-request-to-change-course-was-denied/?p=8869527#entry8869527

What was the plane's position and flight level when it was last seen on radar? Has any news report given this information?

According to the Indonesia National SAR official briefing, the last communication was at 06:12 (2312 UTC), when the plane was at position -3.990410, 110.226000, altitude 32,000 feet, ground speed 469 knots, heading 310, and the plane was last observed on radar at 06.16 (23:16 UTC)

There is this leaked screenshot of Mode-S info from radar playback of flight QZ8501 indicating that the plane was at 24,025 feet at 23:19:46 UTC, ground speed what looks like 64.82 knots, descent rate 11,518.75 feet per minute, position -3.613429, 109.097349 (on Google Maps)

There is also this radar image, with no time stamp I can see, showing the plane at flight level 36,300 feet and rising, ground speed 353 knots.

[billd766]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

"Aircraft from Thailand planned to join Tuesday's search."

As usual, after the party is over, arrive. width=20 alt=laugh.png>

How far is the wreckage from Indonesia or Singapore? Thai aircraft have to fly from wherever they are based in Thailand, the whole length of Malayasia just to get to Singapore. Then they have to fly to the search area and return to an airfield somewhere.

Aircraft have to be diverted from their primary task, flight crews at least two per aircraft will be needed plus ground crews, spares and maintainance fly away kits made up, flight plans submitted and approved. Countries that the military aircraft must fly over have to give approval, the base that the aircraft will operate from will need to be able to support extra aircraft and dozens of other details before any aircraft takes off.

Did you think it was as simple as counting the wings, kicking the tyres and flying away without ANY preparation?

It isn't.

Your from the past. All those things are nothing, prepared in advance, less than 3 days to get to ANY EMERGENCY SITE DRILL.

Get updated on your information. Make it sound like we are still in the 1900s. grow up

Absolutely I am from the past. What qualifications do you have in the area of air/sea rescue, preparation and dispatch of aircraft and crew, materials etc.

If you still think I am wrong then provide links and FACTS to back up what you said, which in truth was nothing except moaning for the sake of it.

[JacChang]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

"Aircraft from Thailand planned to join Tuesday's search."

As usual, after the party is over, arrive. width=20 alt=laugh.png>

How far is the wreckage from Indonesia or Singapore? Thai aircraft have to fly from wherever they are based in Thailand, the whole length of Malayasia just to get to Singapore. Then they have to fly to the search area and return to an airfield somewhere.

Aircraft have to be diverted from their primary task, flight crews at least two per aircraft will be needed plus ground crews, spares and maintainance fly away kits made up, flight plans submitted and approved. Countries that the military aircraft must fly over have to give approval, the base that the aircraft will operate from will need to be able to support extra aircraft and dozens of other details before any aircraft takes off.

Did you think it was as simple as counting the wings, kicking the tyres and flying away without ANY preparation?

It isn't.

Your from the past. All those things are nothing, prepared in advance, less than 3 days to get to ANY EMERGENCY SITE DRILL.

Get updated on your information. Make it sound like we are still in the 1900s. grow up width=19 alt=bah.gif>

Absolutely I am from the past. What qualifications do you have in the area of air/sea rescue, preparation and dispatch of aircraft and crew, materials etc.

If you still think I am wrong then provide links and FACTS to back up what you said, which in truth was nothing except moaning for the sake of it.

If I didn't, I would not be responding to you. Only an old internet geek like you need links to make yourself feel better. Oh right, I forgot you don't have quality friends, but your computer and google.

Aviation was my life, was an aviation engineer AND pilot for many years AND also a volunteered active crew in rescue operations. What else you got?

[neverdie]

I love TVF. 555555

Great threads.