Swedes rally in support of mosques after arson attacks

[ATF]

They really don't like it when they get a taste of their own medicine. What a shame.

[robblok]

They really don't like it when they get a taste of their own medicine. What a shame.

Yes the people burning the Churches are exactly the same people as those who now have mosques in Sweden

I am an atheist, but I don't like it when churches or mosques are burned, i think nobody does. Except the haters on both sides. This topic has shown clearly who those are.

All it does is create more hate on both sides.

[CMNightRider]

I personally do not know any bad farangs in Thailand, that is why I do not protest or denounce them.

The ones I do know have integrated fairly well into the Thai way of life.

I had the decency to answer.

Now you try the same.

Those Muslims also don't know the bad ones, that is the whole point im trying to make. They don't know them personally and they don't want to meet them.

Ill give you an other example.. you might get it or not in the Netherlands and Uk we have / had football hooligans.. they did a lot of damage. I have yet to see normal soccer fans denounce them. Why.. because they are not the same group. Same as you and me and bad farangs.

You just group all the Muslims together and say only way to be good is denounce the bad ones that you don't know. Give them the same chance you give yourself by saying I don't know them and or am not connected to them so I don't have to denounce them.

Ohhh, the so called "good Muslims" know who the "bad Muslims" are for sure. In Indonesia alone, about 19 million (about one in ten) Muslims back violent jihad. These people are a menace to society. After spending about 2-1/2 years, working in Afghanistan, I came to the conclusion, the Muslim religion is the largest Satanic cult in the world.

Here is a quote from the Quran to ponder. "Take not the Jews nor the Christians as your friends or protectors." "Slay the idolaters where you find them. Take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in ambush." Not exactly who I would want for a next door neighbor.

[robblok]

How is it unsafe to criticize Muslims in the Netherlands ? I know of only 1 guy who died because of it and they got the person who did it. It happened before I even left for Thailand (if i still remember correctly) That is not too bad that is 1 incident in more then 10 years.

Your remark about Muslims doing the bombing in Thailand and killing.. you are right.. but you forget one important thing. They kill other Muslims there too. So how do you explain that if its all aimed at Buddists or if all Muslims are bad.. why then do these Muslims get killed by other Muslims.

Dutch politician Geert Wilders who openly criticizes Islam has to live under constant police protection in Holland due to death threats from Muslims.

Dutch film maker Theo van Gogh, who made a controversial film about Islamic culture, was assassinated in Amsterdam in 2004 by a Muslim.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali has been under police protection since the above film was aired, for her part in the film and her criticism of the treatment of women in Islamic culture.

Pat condell's views on Sweden:

Yes and the people who are responsible for the threats on Geert wilders and Ayaan Hirsi Ali should all be caught tried and prosecuted its totally unaceptable. They got the guy who killed Theo van Gogh but are now not so sure he acted alone. They should find out for sure and then take action. It is absolutely wrong to use violence or to curb the freedom of speech of Wilders and others.

People who are responsible should be put in jail and deported later on. NO argument from me there.

But on the same token the people who burn mosques are criminals too and the people supporting them. I see many here in this topic are as bad as the extreme Muslims they hate.

[JDGRUEN]

@ robblok - Post # 32

"Your remark about Muslims doing the bombing in Thailand and killing.. you are right.. but you forget one important thing. They kill other Muslims there too. So how do you explain that if its all aimed at Buddists or if all Muslims are bad.. why then do these Muslims get killed by other Muslims."

WHY? "why then do these Muslims get killed by other Muslims".

In far south Thailand, when Muslims kill other Muslims - the vast majority of Muslims killed by other Muslims in acts of violence are killed as accidental collateral damage while trying to kill Thai Buddhists or are killed in retaliation for collaboration with the Thai Government / School System, etc. and therefore are insulting Islam thus considered traitors ... or just because they refuse to also enter into acts of violence against Buddhists.

Yes they get killed because they are peaceful and don't want to kill others, or they have helped the government.

So if there are Muslims who do that, then for sure not ALL Muslims are bad and terrorist like so many farangs here are posting.

It totally proves my point and that is why i made that point.

So thanks for explaining what others might not have understood.

I have never said that some Muslims were not peaceful - at least on the surface. I live in the midst of thousands of Muslims going about their daily business in a peaceful fashion. But in my opinion it is because their percentage of the total population is not yet high enough for the Radical Islamic instigators to begin pushing the non Muslim population around.

I have on the other hand said that few Muslims will do anything about the violent radical Jihadies in their communities. There are about 1.6 Billion Muslims around the world. My own estimate puts those prone to radical acts toward Western - Christian - Jewish - Buddhist populations at upwards of 2 million people. Not necessarily taking action, taking up arms and shooting people -- but prone to radicalism. Add in another 2 million who would and do avidly support radical Jihadism and this leaves about 1.5999 million Muslims who could do something about the horror of ISIS, HAMAS, Muslim Rapists in Sweden, Boko Haram is Nigeria, etc. - BUT WILL NOT. So why with such overwhelming numbers do the 'peaceful' Muslims not put down the radicals? The answer is the Quran -- the vast majority of Muslims believe enough in the words of the Quran to allow the radical actions of a minority to continue. They have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

Some few may openly challenge the radicals whether in Sweden, Germany, the U.K or elsewhere - but to their peril. So it seems 1.599 Billion Muslims allow a small percentage of radicals to call the shots - to make a pun.

[robblok]

I personally do not know any bad farangs in Thailand, that is why I do not protest or denounce them.

The ones I do know have integrated fairly well into the Thai way of life.

I had the decency to answer.

Now you try the same.

Those Muslims also don't know the bad ones, that is the whole point im trying to make. They don't know them personally and they don't want to meet them.

Ill give you an other example.. you might get it or not in the Netherlands and Uk we have / had football hooligans.. they did a lot of damage. I have yet to see normal soccer fans denounce them. Why.. because they are not the same group. Same as you and me and bad farangs.

You just group all the Muslims together and say only way to be good is denounce the bad ones that you don't know. Give them the same chance you give yourself by saying I don't know them and or am not connected to them so I don't have to denounce them.

Ohhh, the so called "good Muslims" know who the "bad Muslims" are for sure. In Indonesia alone, about 19 million (about one in ten) Muslims back violent jihad. These people are a menace to society. After spending about 2-1/2 years, working in Afghanistan, I came to the conclusion, the Muslim religion is the largest Satanic cult in the world.

Here is a quote from the Quran to ponder. "Take not the Jews nor the Christians as your friends or protectors." "Slay the idolaters where you find them. Take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in ambush." Not exactly who I would want for a next door neighbor.

Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

I see the bible has as much tolerance as the koran.

[JockPieandBeans]

I doubt that it was even over 50% that supported the violence (Catholics or loyalist)

Robblok.

If 50% of Muslims in Europe supports what is going on. That is a frightening number compared to the entire population of N.Ireland.

The following quote is taken directly from a pro Muslim website. I would ask you to read that website. educate yourself and then come to your own conclusions.

(25 countries in the European Union which alone have 21 official languages) identify themselves as Muslims. The U.N. estimates Europe will be 55% Muslim by 2040.

http://www.30-days.net/muslims/statistics/about-europe/

The only other thing I will say on the matter. There is very little chance of me returning to Europe and I will probably already be dead by 2040.

The wording is 5% of the EU countries identify themselves as Muslim; that statement in itself is erroneous. The relevant European countries, from your link, with a relatively large Muslim population are listed below. It is accurate to state not one are currently a member country of the EU.

Albania

Kosovo

Bosnia and Herzegovina

Macedonia

Montenegro

The only countries that would identify themselves as Muslim would be Kosovo & Albania, that in anycase are secular.

I do not believe the claim the UN has stated Europe will have a total population of 55% identying themselves as Muslim by 2040 - where is the link to the UN agency report?

Simple 1

The wording may well be erroneous. I only highlighted it and reported it as being printed on a pro - Muslim website. I also asked Robblok to have a look at that website and come to his own conclusions.

I have also neither said it was a correct or incorrect statement.

If you want a link to the UN Agency report. Try emailing the site that conveyed the information and asking them.

Thanks for the rundown on the Balkan states. I only spent a large part of the 90's there. My knowledge of the place comes from 1st hand experience.

[robblok]

@ robblok - Post # 32

"Your remark about Muslims doing the bombing in Thailand and killing.. you are right.. but you forget one important thing. They kill other Muslims there too. So how do you explain that if its all aimed at Buddists or if all Muslims are bad.. why then do these Muslims get killed by other Muslims."

WHY? "why then do these Muslims get killed by other Muslims".

In far south Thailand, when Muslims kill other Muslims - the vast majority of Muslims killed by other Muslims in acts of violence are killed as accidental collateral damage while trying to kill Thai Buddhists or are killed in retaliation for collaboration with the Thai Government / School System, etc. and therefore are insulting Islam thus considered traitors ... or just because they refuse to also enter into acts of violence against Buddhists.

Yes they get killed because they are peaceful and don't want to kill others, or they have helped the government.

So if there are Muslims who do that, then for sure not ALL Muslims are bad and terrorist like so many farangs here are posting.

It totally proves my point and that is why i made that point.

So thanks for explaining what others might not have understood.

I have never said that some Muslims were not peaceful - at least on the surface. I live in the midst of thousands of Muslims going about their daily business in a peaceful fashion. But in my opinion it is because their percentage of the total population is not yet high enough for the Radical Islamic instigators to begin pushing the non Muslim population around.

I have on the other hand said that few Muslims will do anything about the violent radical Jihadies in their communities. There are about 1.6 Billion Muslims around the world. My own estimate puts those prone to radical acts toward Western - Christian - Jewish - Buddhist populations at upwards of 2 million people. Not necessarily taking action, taking up arms and shooting people -- but prone to radicalism. Add in another 2 million who would and do avidly support radical Jihadism and this leaves about 1.5999 million Muslims who could do something about the horror of ISIS, HAMAS, Muslim Rapists in Sweden, Boko Haram is Nigeria, etc. - BUT WILL NOT. So why with such overwhelming numbers do the 'peaceful' Muslims not put down the radicals? The answer is the Quran -- the vast majority of Muslims believe enough in the words of the Quran to allow the radical actions of a minority to continue. They have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

Some few may openly challenge the radicals whether in Sweden, Germany, the U.K or elsewhere - but to their peril. So it seems 1.599 Billion Muslims allow a small percentage of radicals to call the shots - to make a pun.

Sure they could make more sound, but most of them are as you say peaceful. Would you put your life at risk standing up to violent Muslims. They would not either.

I did not see many Catholics portest against the IRA and I heard loads of Americans supported the IRA financially. Its so easy to say a group should do that, but in reality most people are docile and prefer not to protest. Its that way everywhere and Muslims are no different.

I did not see people from Holland protesting against the violent killings by the IRA in the UK. They should have they are both Christians are they not ? But they did not so what does that say. Its says the same thing as asking Muslims from other countries protest against things that don't happen in their country.

I am an atheist and feel that everyone supporting a religion is a bit of fool and that the world would be so much better without religion. However you wont see me burning churches and mosques. Also if I see some atheist burning churches you wont see me protest either as it has nothing to do with me. You will also not see me protest if a Dutch guy is caught with drugs in Thailand as it has nothing to do with me. I think you overstate how involved and responsible people feel for others.

[KamalaRider]

There is no religion in the world excepts killing if you don't belong to their religion.

Wrong, Islam does, read the Koran

If you read the koran carefully, you will find out it's all about infidels, not christians, muslims or jews and it's only if they don't accept becoming religious.

[Ulysses G.]

"it's only if they don't accept becoming religious."

So it's OK to kill people who are not religious and subjugate Christians and Jews who refuse to convert to Islam.

[ATF]

KamalaRider, on 05 Jan 2015 - 09:53, said:

jacky54, on 04 Jan 2015 - 09:04, said:

Alfa, on 04 Jan 2015 - 08:51, said:

There is no religion in the world excepts killing if you don't belong to their religion.

Wrong, Islam does, read the Koran

If you read the koran carefully, you will find out it's all about infidels, not christians, muslims or jews and it's only if they don't accept becoming religious.

The Koran says that anyone who does not accept Islam is lower than a dog and can be dispatched with impunity because they are insult to Allah.

[robblok]

Here a protest from Muslims in France against ISIS, called for by the head of the largest mosque in France. But of course people will say its not enough.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/muslims-in-france-protest-against-extremism/

[robblok]

KamalaRider, on 05 Jan 2015 - 09:53, said:

jacky54, on 04 Jan 2015 - 09:04, said:

Alfa, on 04 Jan 2015 - 08:51, said:

There is no religion in the world excepts killing if you don't belong to their religion.

Wrong, Islam does, read the Koran

If you read the koran carefully, you will find out it's all about infidels, not christians, muslims or jews and it's only if they don't accept becoming religious.

The Koran says that anyone who does not accept Islam is lower than a dog and can be dispatched with impunity because they are insult to Allah.

The koran just like the bible and any other religious book is full of contradictions. IMHO as an atheist religion is for fools and the world would be so much better without it. That includes the Christians with their kid playing monks.

However this conflicts with my idea of live and let live.

Edited January 5, 2015 by robblok

[AyG]

The Koran says that anyone who does not accept Islam is lower than a dog and can be dispatched with impunity because they are insult to Allah.

The Koran says many very distasteful things but does not say that. You're simply making things up and making an unhelpful contribution to the discussion.

[jacky54]

There is no religion in the world excepts killing if you don't belong to their religion.

Wrong, Islam does, read the Koran

If you read the koran carefully, you will find out it's all about infidels, not christians, muslims or jews and it's only if they don't accept becoming religious.

Yes the people of the book, so tolerated by Mohamad that in his latter years he declared he would expel all Jews and Christians from Arabia. Infidels, Jews and Christians have been persecuted and discriminated against by Islam ever since. Why do you think there are no Churches and Synagogues in Saudi Arabia?

[jacky54]

Here a protest from Muslims in France against ISIS, called for by the head of the largest mosque in France. But of course people will say its not enough.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/muslims-in-france-protest-against-extremism/

It's rather like a few German nazi's having a protest about the SS, makes no difference to the real problem which is what they believe in. Every Moslem on earth could protest but that would not alter the fundamental evil in the Koran which is littered with calls for violence and which preaches Islamic supremacy. Until Muslims want to speak out against some of the Koran and the life of the prophet and reform their stone age beliefs and prectices then nothing will change,

[jacky54]

The koran just like the bible and any other religious book is full of contradictions.

Not really as where there are conflicts the later suras abrogate the earlier ones. Very often this means the violent ones over rule the more tolerant ones. The earlier ones need to be tossed out then what Islam is really all about would be a bit clearer.

[AyG]

The koran just like the bible and any other religious book is full of contradictions.

Not really. The Bible is divided into two parts, Old and New Testament. For Christians the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament supersede what was in the Old Testament, so in Christianity there's no stoning for adultery (see Leviticus 20:10), and Christians don't believe "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks" (Psalm 137:9) and it's OK to wear polyester/cotton mix shirts (see Leviticus 19:10).

The Koran is also divided into two parts - Mohammed's teachings from his Mecca period, which were pretty tolerant, and his teachings from the later Medina period, which are intolerant and violent. It's difficult to see this because the Koran is (rather ridiculously) ordered by chapter length, not chronologically. Anyway, the later (intolerant and violent) teachings replaced the earlier, rather nicer ones.

In both cases there's no real contradiction; in both cases older teachings were replaced by newer ones. In the case of the Koran the teachings moved from emphasising tolerance to promoting violence. In the case of the Bible the teachings moved in the opposite direction.

A couple of other points are noteworthy:

(1) The Bible is accepted as having been written by human beings who are fallible; the Koran is taken as the literal word of the Moslem deity and is therefore utterly infallible, so everything written in it remains an absolute truth even now, more than a millennium later, even the deeply unpleasant stuff.

(2) In Europe we underwent the Age of Enlightenment. Bacon, Descartes, Newton, Locke, Kant, Hume, Voltaire, Spinoza all published widely-read books which emphasised reason, analysis and individualism over acceptance of traditional authorities such as the Roman Catholic church. The Islamic world has never undergone such an "Enlightenment", and it remains stuck in its mediaeval mindset.

[NeverSure]

So, what will eventually happen to Sweden with this massive cultural upheaval they have?

[jacky54]

So, what will eventually happen to Sweden with this massive cultural upheaval they have?

Probably get renamed the Islamic republic of Swedanistan at some point in the future if it keeps going the way it has been

[AyG]

Yes the people of the book, so tolerated by Mohamad that in his latter years he declared he would expel all Jews and Christians from Arabia. Infidels, Jews and Christians have been persecuted and discriminated against by Islam ever since. Why do you think there are no Churches and Synagogues in Saudi Arabia?

Yet again, another made up story that doesn't appear in the Koran. Mohammed never decided to expel all Jews and Christians from Arabia. To be honest, that would have been a stupid thing to do since they were all paying jizya - a punitive tax - to avoid being exiled or executed.

It was after Mohammed's death that the second caliph, Umar ibn Al-Khattāb, decided that Jews and Christians should all be expelled from Arabia.

[jacky54]

I never claimed Mohamad stating he wanted all Jews and Chritians out was in the koran, it's in the haddith, seems to have had his prayers answered

Edited January 5, 2015 by jacky54

[Anthony5]

Yes the people of the book, so tolerated by Mohamad that in his latter years he declared he would expel all Jews and Christians from Arabia. Infidels, Jews and Christians have been persecuted and discriminated against by Islam ever since. Why do you think there are no Churches and Synagogues in Saudi Arabia?

Yet again, another made up story that doesn't appear in the Koran. Mohammed never decided to expel all Jews and Christians from Arabia. To be honest, that would have been a stupid thing to do since they were all paying jizya - a punitive tax - to avoid being exiled or executed.

It was after Mohammed's death that the second caliph, Umar ibn Al-Khattāb, decided that Jews and Christians should all be expelled from Arabia.

Do I see a contradiction in your post?

If they paid to avoid being exiled or executed, doesn't that mean they were meant to be exiled, but were tolerated if they paid up?

[jacky54]

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2008/11/expelling-jews.html

7th Century, Muhammad said: "I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims" (Sahih Muslim 4366). Medinah, which had a massive Jewish population when Muhammad came to town as a peacemaker, watched its Jewish population disappear

Edited January 5, 2015 by jacky54

[JDGRUEN]

The koran just like the bible and any other religious book is full of contradictions.

Not really. The Bible is divided into two parts, Old and New Testament. For Christians the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament supersede what was in the Old Testament, so in Christianity there's no stoning for adultery (see Leviticus 20:10), and Christians don't believe "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks" (Psalm 137:9) and it's OK to wear polyester/cotton mix shirts (see Leviticus 19:10).

The Koran is also divided into two parts - Mohammed's teachings from his Mecca period, which were pretty tolerant, and his teachings from the later Medina period, which are intolerant and violent. It's difficult to see this because the Koran is (rather ridiculously) ordered by chapter length, not chronologically. Anyway, the later (intolerant and violent) teachings replaced the earlier, rather nicer ones.

In both cases there's no real contradiction; in both cases older teachings were replaced by newer ones. In the case of the Koran the teachings moved from emphasising tolerance to promoting violence. In the case of the Bible the teachings moved in the opposite direction.

A couple of other points are noteworthy:

(1) The Bible is accepted as having been written by human beings who are fallible; the Koran is taken as the literal word of the Moslem deity and is therefore utterly infallible, so everything written in it remains an absolute truth even now, more than a millennium later, even the deeply unpleasant stuff.

(2) In Europe we underwent the Age of Enlightenment. Bacon, Descartes, Newton, Locke, Kant, Hume, Voltaire, Spinoza all published widely-read books which emphasised reason, analysis and individualism over acceptance of traditional authorities such as the Roman Catholic church. The Islamic world has never undergone such an "Enlightenment", and it remains stuck in its mediaeval mindset.

This could be a start for Muslims to enter the 21st Century ... In a call to move away from the violent mindset of radical domination ...

Egypt's President Al Sisi calls for 'religious revolution' in Islam

All this that I am telling you, you cannot feel it if you remain trapped within this mindset. You need to step outside of yourselves to be able to observe it and reflect on it it from a more enlightened perspective.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/01/egypt_al_sisi_calls_religious_revolution_islam.html

[jacky54]

He will be on a death list now then

[Ulysses G.]

The koran just like the bible and any other religious book is full of contradictions.

Not really. The Bible is divided into two parts, Old and New Testament. For Christians the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament supersede what was in the Old Testament, so in Christianity there's no stoning for adultery (see Leviticus 20:10), and Christians don't believe "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks" (Psalm 137:9) and it's OK to wear polyester/cotton mix shirts (see Leviticus 19:10).

The Koran is also divided into two parts - Mohammed's teachings from his Mecca period, which were pretty tolerant, and his teachings from the later Medina period, which are intolerant and violent. It's difficult to see this because the Koran is (rather ridiculously) ordered by chapter length, not chronologically. Anyway, the later (intolerant and violent) teachings replaced the earlier, rather nicer ones.

In both cases there's no real contradiction; in both cases older teachings were replaced by newer ones. In the case of the Koran the teachings moved from emphasising tolerance to promoting violence. In the case of the Bible the teachings moved in the opposite direction.

A couple of other points are noteworthy:

(1) The Bible is accepted as having been written by human beings who are fallible; the Koran is taken as the literal word of the Moslem deity and is therefore utterly infallible, so everything written in it remains an absolute truth even now, more than a millennium later, even the deeply unpleasant stuff.

(2) In Europe we underwent the Age of Enlightenment. Bacon, Descartes, Newton, Locke, Kant, Hume, Voltaire, Spinoza all published widely-read books which emphasised reason, analysis and individualism over acceptance of traditional authorities such as the Roman Catholic church. The Islamic world has never undergone such an "Enlightenment", and it remains stuck in its mediaeval mindset.

I'm out of "likes", but this is an excellent post. I've never seen it written down so concisely and so accurately.

[Sirpia]

KamalaRider, on 05 Jan 2015 - 09:53, said:

jacky54, on 04 Jan 2015 - 09:04, said:

Alfa, on 04 Jan 2015 - 08:51, said:

There is no religion in the world excepts killing if you don't belong to their religion.

Wrong, Islam does, read the Koran

If you read the koran carefully, you will find out it's all about infidels, not christians, muslims or jews and it's only if they don't accept becoming religious.

The Koran says that anyone who does not accept Islam is lower than a dog and can be dispatched with impunity because they are insult to Allah.

Please show evidence of this.

Thanks.

[AyG]

I never claimed Mohamad stating he wanted all Jews and Chritians out was in the koran, it's in the haddith, seems to have had his prayers answered

Sahih Muslim lived 817-874 CE - long after Mohammed died in 632 CE. Given the evidence of the Koran that Mohammed was perfectly happy to have Jews and Christians living in Arabia and paying jizya, doesn't the hadith seem a little suspect to you? It was written after the decision was made by the second caliph to expel all non-Moslems and seemingly "justifies" his actions.

[Scott]

Please stay on topic.