When is too old just too old or IOW, am I too old to be a Monk?

[VincentRJ]

I suffer from cyclic depression.

This condition has been with me for as long as I can remember.

I call it my depression because it is mine, it is part of me, I am unable to either stop it or end the cycles.

Now things are clearer. Thanks for clarifying your situation, N. I'd say you have good reasons and motivation to investigate the powers of Buddhist meditation.

What attracts me about the Buddhist and Yoga techniques and practices, is the possibility of taking complete control over my sense of well-being. That is, the possibility of being able to decide not to get angry, or anxious or depressed in circumstances when such states of mind might be an automatic reaction in accordance with my conditioning.

Also, to be able to feel joy for no apparent external reason, but simply because one is able to enter into a peaceful state of calm at will, seems a very worthwhile objective.

However, what does deter me from spending more time diligently practising meditation is the sense of doing nothing, really nothing, which tends to go against the grain.

If one relaxes on the beach, just sitting down, watching the surf, hearing the seagulls squawking, watching the boats pass by, admiring the scenery and so on, one is at least doing something. If one attempts to seriously meditate, concentrating only on one's breath, for example, then surely one is shutting out all that surrounding beauty.

[rockyysdt]

Now things are clearer. Thanks for clarifying your situation, N. I'd say you have good reasons and motivation to investigate the powers of Buddhist meditation.

What attracts me about the Buddhist and Yoga techniques and practices, is the possibility of taking complete control over my sense of well-being. That is, the possibility of being able to decide not to get angry, or anxious or depressed in circumstances when such states of mind might be an automatic reaction in accordance with my conditioning.

Also, to be able to feel joy for no apparent external reason, but simply because one is able to enter into a peaceful state of calm at will, seems a very worthwhile objective.

However, what does deter me from spending more time diligently practising meditation is the sense of doing nothing, really nothing, which tends to go against the grain.

If one relaxes on the beach, just sitting down, watching the surf, hearing the seagulls squawking, watching the boats pass by, admiring the scenery and so on, one is at least doing something. If one attempts to seriously meditate, concentrating only on one's breath, for example, then surely one is shutting out all that surrounding beauty.

Hi V.

Thirty to 180 Minutes a day still allows a lot of beach time though.

If you get really diligent and extend that time, wouldn't this be an indicator that you have found something even more beautiful?

[VincentRJ]

Now things are clearer. Thanks for clarifying your situation, N. I'd say you have good reasons and motivation to investigate the powers of Buddhist meditation.

What attracts me about the Buddhist and Yoga techniques and practices, is the possibility of taking complete control over my sense of well-being. That is, the possibility of being able to decide not to get angry, or anxious or depressed in circumstances when such states of mind might be an automatic reaction in accordance with my conditioning.

Also, to be able to feel joy for no apparent external reason, but simply because one is able to enter into a peaceful state of calm at will, seems a very worthwhile objective.

However, what does deter me from spending more time diligently practising meditation is the sense of doing nothing, really nothing, which tends to go against the grain.

If one relaxes on the beach, just sitting down, watching the surf, hearing the seagulls squawking, watching the boats pass by, admiring the scenery and so on, one is at least doing something. If one attempts to seriously meditate, concentrating only on one's breath, for example, then surely one is shutting out all that surrounding beauty.

Hi V.

Thirty to 180 Minutes a day still allows a lot of beach time though.

If you get really diligent and extend that time, wouldn't this be an indicator that you have found something even more beautiful?

Hi Rocky,

Of course, it's not just beach time, but all the books one has in mind to read, when one has the time, including books on Buddhism. I still have a handful of books on Buddhist matters which I haven't read yet, not to mention the 30 volumes of the Pali Canon.

[n210mp]

Thanks friends

In view of the fact I have told you about my depression I feel that it may figure a bit too prominently in these discussions from many different points of view.

You see I am aware of being one of the luckiest people in the world that I know and I treat my depression as just another mode (Yes even when I am in the middle of an episode). of gaining something from it, even if it is only patience

I think that I am already in charge of my mind to the extent that like a person going for kidney dialysis. I too have to put up with the mental boredom and stress of being totally physically exhausted.

I cannot cure or stop this problem and it does have a bad effect on my body with chronic exhaustion ETC but fortunately not on my mind, I never become either suicidal or have thoughts of being better off dead.

In fact I learned a long time ago that physical exercise is essential for me to minimise the effects of the depression problem and this is why I cycle so much and practice my golf swing at the local driving range so regularly.

This exercise is to ensure that the cardiovascular system and ergo my body is in balance with my self induced stress

I think that my depression may be caused partly because of my natural zest and enthusiasm for life and the thoughts of something better in the future that are constantly frustrated by preoccupation with the materialistic, the temporary and lack of any discipline type of training to control emotions that are trivial to say the least and definitely in my opinion adverse to my spiritual path

I feel that I already have, within myself that is, all that is needed to spiritually and mentally grow and further, that when I actually begin to learn the basics of the Discipline of the Monks way of life will benefit enormously.

Sort of all the musicians being present in my mind but unfortunately not all playing the same tune

I want to learn how to meditate, to free myself of mental cul de sacs, in my terms to be single minded in a search for the right way

Edited January 18, 2015 by n210mp

[trd]

I have been following your posts and I now have a better idea of who you are. You have one question in your mind. One simple question, one idea, one feeling which is exploding into a multifarious expression of ideas, concepts, doubts, regrets about the past, fears for the future, a possible conviction that your salvation lies in the hands of a monk, an understanding of Buddhism based on what you think you know and opinions freely given by others. In other words, no understanding at all of any value, because this one simple question is just one thing. You want to know who you are. That is all. And with that comes truth.

After all your posts, I was struck by the very last sentence in your last post:

"I want to learn how to meditate, to free myself of mental cul de sacs, in my terms to be single minded in a search for the right way"

So you start with all the difficult things, which means dealing with all the thoughts that continually invade the mind, and chop and change according to what mood you are in or what someone says to compel you to further evaluate and reconsider these thoughts, a continual struggle that will never give you peace, and right at the end of the last post you mention that which is the easiest thing to do, the most simple act you can perform as well as being the most profound and relevant to getting the answers you seek with that "simple" question. Don't you think that's interesting?

As a former pilot, did engaging the autopilot result in the aircraft taking care of itself thereby freeing you from doing anything?

Edited January 18, 2015 by trd

[wooloomooloo]

Harvey, excellent thread as always. I know where you're coming from and I transmit my empathy, particularly to your lovely, long-suffering wife [only joking].

Have you ever enjoyed the delights of a drum & bass or jungle session? Selecta.

[rockyysdt]

Hi Rocky,

Of course, it's not just beach time, but all the books one has in mind to read, when one has the time, including books on Buddhism. I still have a handful of books on Buddhist matters which I haven't read yet, not to mention the 30 volumes of the Pali Canon.

Nothing wrong with reading.

You also have an excellent book list.

I think it's a balancing act.

When reading, we are after all getting involved with the thoughts of others, on top of ours.

Food for thought.

[n210mp]

I have been following your posts and I now have a better idea of who you are. You have one question in your mind. One simple question, one idea, one feeling which is exploding into a multifarious expression of ideas, concepts, doubts, regrets about the past, fears for the future, a possible conviction that your salvation lies in the hands of a monk, an understanding of Buddhism based on what you think you know and opinions freely given by others. In other words, no understanding at all of any value, because this one simple question is just one thing. You want to know who you are. That is all. And with that comes truth.

After all your posts, I was struck by the very last sentence in your last post:

"I want to learn how to meditate, to free myself of mental cul de sacs, in my terms to be single minded in a search for the right way"

So you start with all the difficult things, which means dealing with all the thoughts that continually invade the mind, and chop and change according to what mood you are in or what someone says to compel you to further evaluate and reconsider these thoughts, a continual struggle that will never give you peace, and right at the end of the last post you mention that which is the easiest thing to do, the most simple act you can perform as well as being the most profound and relevant to getting the answers you seek with that "simple" question. Don't you think that's interesting?

As a former pilot, did engaging the autopilot result in the aircraft taking care of itself thereby freeing you from doing anything?

Yes, yes and yes

you are 100% correct and would you believe me if I told you that when I said/wrote that bit that the answers were in the discipline of the teaching of my friend the Monk and only to be used as a last resort.

I was thinking along the same lines as per your comment.

Ironic really that the finishing point or last resort should have been the starting point. ( If I have interpreted your comment correctly)

I didn't have a lot of confidence in what I was saying though, I was also aware that this was not even logical, but it sort of gave me some confidence that through the teaching of the Monk with respect to learning how to basically meditate that this could be a positive way for me to travel

In another life (for me)

The autopilot was and is part of the system especially in long distance flying to take the mental boredom & exhaustion out of the equation ( the fact that usually it does a better job of flying the craft in any event is just another positive ) however I take your point and good piloting is of course monitoring all the systems including the autopilot, at the end of the day the pilot must have a very accurate mental picture of just where he and the aircraft are at any given moment and should never rely on the autopilot.

Conclusion

Yes it is in my nature ( you are right) to ignore the instruction book and only use the Instruction book when everything else fails.

The paradox is obvious and my intention to look at the IB given to me and read to me (metaphorically) by the Monk may well be the course that I should have originally trod

Edited January 19, 2015 by n210mp

[n210mp]

Harvey, excellent thread as always. I know where you're coming from and I transmit my empathy, particularly to your lovely, long-suffering wife [only joking].

Have you ever enjoyed the delights of a drum & bass or jungle session? Selecta.

Thanks for nice comment Tony

Is this the moosic you are refering too;

?

If so then only by accident to be honest but I love music of any description especilally trance when the beat help me with a nice and fast walking pace on the treadmill with the earphones on

[trd]

The autopilot was and is part of the system especially in long distance flying to take the mental boredom & exhaustion out of the equation ( the fact that usually it does a better job of flying the craft in any event is just another positive ) however I take your point and good piloting is of course monitoring all the systems including the autopilot, at the end of the day the pilot must have a very accurate mental picture of just where he and the aircraft are at any given moment and should never rely on the autopilot.

You have misunderstood this metaphor. I am asking you to do the opposite and stop monitoring all your instruments. What comes across very strongly is how time bound and path bound your thinking is. You are carefully considering your options and alternatives and even considering whether to postpone it to another lifetime. This is missing the point because what you seek is right here right now. It always is and always has been. There is no path. That is just a construct of the mind. It is the nature of the mind to continually construct a narrative where you see yourself on a timeline with the past behind you and the future in front of you. You think that you need to get on a path where the starting point is ignorance and by accumulating more knowledge you will arrive at a state of knowledge or enlightenment some time in the future. This is not so. Stop thinking and don't analyze what I have said. You are already that which you are. There is no path to it but only the uncovering of the veil of conditioning that prevents you from seeing what is already there in front of your nose. Don't waste time.

[n210mp]

The autopilot was and is part of the system especially in long distance flying to take the mental boredom & exhaustion out of the equation ( the fact that usually it does a better job of flying the craft in any event is just another positive ) however I take your point and good piloting is of course monitoring all the systems including the autopilot, at the end of the day the pilot must have a very accurate mental picture of just where he and the aircraft are at any given moment and should never rely on the autopilot.

You have misunderstood this metaphor. I am asking you to do the opposite and stop monitoring all your instruments. What comes across very strongly is how time bound and path bound your thinking is. You are carefully considering your options and alternatives and even considering whether to postpone it to another lifetime. This is missing the point because what you seek is right here right now. It always is and always has been. There is no path. That is just a construct of the mind. It is the nature of the mind to continually construct a narrative where you see yourself on a timeline with the past behind you and the future in front of you. You think that you need to get on a path where the starting point is ignorance and by accumulating more knowledge you will arrive at a state of knowledge or enlightenment some time in the future. This is not so. Stop thinking and don't analyze what I have said. You are already that which you are. There is no path to it but only the uncovering of the veil of conditioning that prevents you from seeing what is already there in front of your nose. Don't waste time.

You honorable friend, have lost me, I am incapable of understanding what you say , there is no easy way to say this other than the way that I have!

The point I make regarding the autopilot is that ultimate responsibility rests with the Pilot and I tried to make that point in my last post.

In other words I the pilot of my own destiny am responsible for the position that I am in at this time

Your metaphor was not missed or overlooked I just thought I was talking at another level of understanding, maybe not the same one as you and I crave for understanding but maybe it can only come from personal experience guided by others who have trod the same path or similar.

I Love to use the paradox or the metaphor but this does not work in some situations that require some basic knowledge or understanding.because they (those who may well be more enlightened than me) have been through albeit under different circumstance the same thoughts, frustration that I have

I feel quite inadequate in that department and that is why simplistically I look to another for guidance in gaining some understanding in achieving single mindedness without intrusion of things that really are irellevent

[trd]

I find myself perplexed. What is it you think you will learn from your friend. What is it that you know about Buddhism that would cause you to leave your wife and commit to entering a monastery?

Does what I said have no meaning. You know that the basis of Buddha's teachings is that there is suffering and that what you think of as the person you are is a false self and impermanent. What is it that single mindedness on your part will achieve. Single mindedness of what exactly. Do you have any conception of practice which is based on going within to experience awareness without thinking. Do you have an understanding that mind is getting in the way of knowing your true nature.

What has your friend told you. Surely before making such a decision, you would more than acquaint yourself with the teachings you would follow. There seems to be a gap between your motivation and the perceived result of where that motivation will take you.

Edited January 19, 2015 by trd

[n210mp]

I find myself perplexed. What is it you think you will learn from your friend. What is it that you know about Buddhism that would cause you to leave your wife and commit to entering a monastery?

Does what I said have no meaning. You know that the basis of Buddha's teachings is that there is suffering and that what you think of as the person you are is a false self and impermanent. What is it that single mindedness on your part will achieve. Single mindedness of what exactly. Do you have any conception of practice which is based on going within to experience awareness without thinking. Do you have an understanding that mind is getting in the way of knowing your true nature.

What has your friend told you. Surely before making such a decision, you would more than acquaint yourself with the teachings you would follow. There seems to be a gap between your motivation and the perceived result of where that motivation will take you.

Question I find myself perplexed. What is it you think you will learn from your friend.

Answer I simply dont know and I am very sorry that I have caused you to be perplexed.

Maybe an answer to the dis-satisfaction that I feel about life in general, to maybe find another or better way of thinking than what I am doing now, which may allow me to deal with life in general in a more quiet and calm manner

Question What is it that you know about Buddhism that would cause you to leave your wife and commit to entering a monastery?

Answer I said in a previous post that I wouldn't commit to more than a week because of my love for my wife and my knowledge of Buddhism and its precepts is practically nil

Question Does what I said have no meaning.

Answer No, it doesn't or very little that I can understand having as I said above very little knowledge and with respect I dont know and that is why I was asking the question in the OP in the first place

Question You know that the basis of Buddha's teachings is that there is suffering and that what you think of as the person you are is a false self and impermanent. What is it that single mindedness on your part will achieve. Single mindedness of what exactly. Do you have any conception of practice which is based on going within to experience awareness without thinking. Do you have an understanding that mind is getting in the way of knowing your true nature.

Answer No I didn't know the basis of Buddhas teaching and because I say no to the first part of your question, it then follows that the rest of your question can not be helpful if I tried to answer, even if I had a little knowledge I could have tried to answer and I mention "single mindedness" merely to show that I can, if given the right training and the stimulation get down in a single minded manner to learn.

That is of course after I actually made the decision and a commitment

And Yes you are quite right, your well meaning words have little meaning to me and that is not because I am not listening nor thinking about what you have said in you most welcome replies and advices but surely due to real ignorance, the word used in its truest sense.

Question What has your friend told you. Surely before making such a decision, you would more than acquaint yourself with the teachings you would follow. There seems to be a gap between your motivation and the perceived result of where that motivation will take you.

Answer My friend hasn't really told me much but the way He carries himself, his quiet calm, his gentleness, simplicity and his great wisdom have made me reflect on just where I am in this life.

It was a culmination of the past few years of conversations I think that have led to a natural progression which resulted in me being asked if I would like to become a Monk and be his student.

Just lately and I did mention this in an earlier post I told him that I thought I was not yet ready and he suggested maybe spending some little time in the forest temple

In summary Many thanks for trying to help me

Harvey

Edited January 20, 2015 by n210mp

[trd]

Thank you for your honesty and directness Harvey. I wish you well. It seems to me that a one or two week retreat could be worthwhile. Many people from all walks of life do this on a regular basis. Surely this must be your next step. It will be an opportunity to dip your toe in the water by experiencing the monastic way of life for a short time. And it will give you knowledge and a practice which you can incorporate into your normal life. Don't forget that most practicing Buddhists are householders.

[n210mp]

Thank you for your honesty and directness Harvey. I wish you well. It seems to me that a one or two week retreat could be worthwhile. Many people from all walks of life do this on a regular basis. Surely this must be your next step. It will be an opportunity to dip your toe in the water by experiencing the monastic way of life for a short time. And it will give you knowledge and a practice which you can incorporate into your normal life. Don't forget that most practicing Buddhists are householders.

Thanks trd

I will spend a few days with him at Songkran and this is something that I look forward to with both relief and trepidation.

Through the magic of my android box I have been viewing a video about Spike Milligans "living" obituary and him having the starring role in talking about his earlier life.

I empathise with Spike because we had in common the same fault line which wreaks havoc insomuch as it gives us a clear understanding of another way of thinking, dreaming, living but it does not show us how to actually live in the circumstances of our existence.

I have attached myself to many different beliefs and cults where blind faith, worship, fear, penance and self guilt were all involved in some way and concluded that this really doesn't fit in with an all loving and forgiving Father God

Buddhism or the surface of it , seemed to me to have answers that I sought but the cost of enlightenment may be too high a price for me to pay in this life.

My OP question which was a little hidden and maybe could only be answered by someone who had direct experience and is perhaps a similar age to myself.

What I really wanted to know, was at my age could I manage to change all those personal body and mind instinctive reactions, fears and prejudice that have been cultivated for so many years.

My instinct tells me that I could not change to the extent needed.

My view that maybe in the next reincarnation it could be more possible was a genuine thought and not a way of shirking a responsibility by not doing today what could be done tomorrow as was suggested.

Edit or PS

Normally I dont write edit when I have missed something out this is a genuine PS because after reading this post I did manage as my best friend would say "A moment of clarity".

I now feel a new sense that possibly the week with my learned friend will be the stepping stone that I need and therefore the trepidation has gone and been replaced with a thought of quiet optimism

Edited January 20, 2015 by n210mp

[trd]

Please come back after Songkran and let us know how it goes.

[n210mp]

Please come back after Songkran and let us know how it goes.

I certainly will and thanks trd and also to the other great posters for an interesting thread

[rockyysdt]

Hi Harvey.

Don't concern yourself with the supposed ultimate prize.

Any practice, even for short periods has the power to bring awareness in the present.

Don't worry yourself about the future possibilities.

Its all about living in the present moment.

Even 10 seconds of samadhi is significant.

Don't attach to such notions as reincarnation.

In Buddhism it is called Rebirth.

That which will be reborn won't be Harvey anyway.

There is beyond Harvey, Rocky and the others.

Another worthwhile skill of practice is to learn how to die. Something we all must face in this life.

Practice is worthwhile.

We should all exercise, eat sensibly, and meditate.

[n210mp]

You know Rocky, I am sort of meditating right now!

It seems that the only time that I am at peace with myself is when I am in a debate, whether on TV like now or in a verbaldialogue with many of my friends or acquaintances.

Thanks for the post and the warmth between the words, you and trd have Jai dee in common.

I will get there in the end, wherever that is and yes when I was making my reply to trd about rebirth (I stand corrected) it did occur to me that Harvey wouldn't be there to make any comparisons with the his previous life