Some 30,000 Germans protest against anti-Islam rallies

[webfact]

Some 30,000 Germans protest against anti-Islam rallies
DAVID RISING, Associated Press

BERLIN (AP) — The square around the Cologne Cathedral was plunged into darkness Monday evening after the historical landmark in western Germany shut down its lights in a silent protest of weekly rallies in Dresden against the perceived "Islamization" of Europe.

The symbolic act came as thousands of Germans demonstrated in Cologne and several other cities against the ongoing protests by the group calling itself Patriotic Europeans against the Islamization of the West, or PEGIDA, which attracted its biggest crowd yet in Dresden on Monday night.

Cologne Cathedral provost Norbert Feldhoff, told n-tv that shutting down the lights was an attempt to make the PEGIDA demonstrators think twice about their protest.

"You're taking part in an action that, from its roots and also from speeches, one can see is Nazi-ist, racist and extremist," he said on n-tv. "And you're supporting people you really don't want to support."

Only about 250 PEGIDA supporters showed up in Cologne, as compared to about ten times that number of counter-demonstrators. Similarly in Berlin, police said some 5,000 counter-demonstrators blocked about 300 PEGIDA supporters from marching along their planned route from city hall to the Brandenburg Gate. Another 22,000 anti-PEGIDA demonstrators rallied in Stuttgart, Muenster and Hamburg, the dpa news agency reported.

But PEGEIDA's main demonstration in the eastern city of Dresden, a region that has few immigrants or Muslims, attracted some 18,000, according to police. The demonstrations there have been growing from an initial few hundred in October to around 17,500 at a rally just before Christmas.

Carrying signs with slogans like "wake up" the crowd chanted "we are the people" and "lying press" as they passed television cameras on Monday.

In uncharacteristically frank words in her New Year's address, Chancellor Angela Merkel urged Germans to stay away from the Dresden rallies.

When the PEGIDA demonstrators chant "we are the people," Merkel said "they actually mean 'you don't belong because of your religion or your skin."

PEGIDA organizer Kathrin Oertel slammed the speech at the rally Monday, telling the crowd "in Germany we have political repression again."

"Or how would you see it when we are insulted or called racists or Nazis openly by all the political mainstream parties and media for our justified criticism of Germany's asylum seeker policies and the non-existent immigration policy," she asked the cheering crowd.

PEGIDA has sought to distance itself from the far-right, saying in its position paper posted on Facebook that it is against "preachers of hate, regardless of what religion" and "radicalism, regardless of whether religiously or politically motivated."

"PEGIDA is for resistance against an anti-woman political ideology that emphasizes violence, but not against integrated Muslims living here," the group said.

It has also banned any neo-Nazi symbols and slogans at its rallies, though critics have noted the praise and support it has received from known neo-Nazi groups.

Cem Ozdemir, co-chairman of The Greens party and himself the son of a Turkish immigrant, told n-tv that while he, too, was against any form of extremism, "intolerance cannot be fought with intolerance."

"The line is not between Christians and Muslims," he said. "The line is between those who are intolerant ... and the others, the majority."

In Berlin, anti-PEGIDA demonstrator Ursula Wozniak said she had joined the protest because she felt the PEGIDA group was abusing Germany's democratic tradition.

"What is happening right now in Germany is just extremely shocking," she said.

PEGIDA was forced to call off its demonstration early in Cologne, after organizers reported being blocked from marching along their planned route, police said.

Other buildings, including several other churches and a museum, joined the Cologne Cathedral in shutting off their lights in support of the anti-PEGIDA demonstrators.

In Dresden, automaker Volkswagen decided to keep its glass-walled manufacturing plant dark, to underscore the company "stands for an open, free and democratic society."
___

Kerstin Sopke in Dresden and Dalton Bennett in Berlin contributed to this report.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-01-06

[NeverSure]

Europe is screwed. The future Radical Islamic State of Europe.

From OP: "But PEGEIDA's main demonstration in the eastern city of Dresden, a region that has few immigrants or Muslims, attracted some 18,000, according to police. The demonstrations there have been growing from an initial few hundred in October to around 17,500 at a rally just before Christmas.

Carrying signs with slogans like "wake up" the crowd chanted "we are the people" and "lying press" as they passed television cameras on Monday."

Some get it, but they are helpless and hopeless against PC brainwashing.

[Somtamnication]

The muslims will use European political correctness to achieve their aim. Too late, Ms. Merkel! The UK is already losing. France, too. Italy on its way.

[Seastallion]

Good to see the tolerant outnumber the bigots.

[NeverSure]

Good to see the tolerant outnumber the bigots.

So you think it's intolerant to want to maintain your country's laws and culture? What other group immigrates to a country and demands that it change its culture and even its laws to suit it?

[Seastallion]

Good to see the tolerant outnumber the bigots.

So you think it's intolerant to want to maintain your country's laws and culture? What other group immigrates to a country and demands that it change its culture and even its laws to suit it?

No, I don't think that. I think it's fine, even imperative, to maintain a national identity. New Zealand succeeds wonderfully as a multi-cultural society without any tolerance of racism, without needing to discriminate in favour of or against minorities (except women and Maori, but that's a different matter)

But PEGIDA, despite it's attempts to distance itself from racist groups, is about religious and race intolerance.

For Angela Merkel to come right out and say it, for the Cologne Cathedral to actually allege nazi-ism, for all the other churches and companies to allege it, indicates that there is more than just a little substance to it.

And I daresay Merkel et al above know a whole lot better than you.

[ABCer]

Southern Europe - Spain, Italy, France are paying the bills for their association with North African Muslim states.

Dutch, Germans, Swedes, Norwegians, Belgians and English are paying for their shortsighted Liberalism.

Russia is paying for its Imperial centralized Kremlin policies for the last 100 years.

Nobody wants to see and admit that the new Jihad is rapidly advancing.

The times of Holy Wars and Crusades are over because the battle lines are not in Jerusalem but in the hearts and minds of

London, Paris, Stockholm, Rome etc. dwellers.

No war is possible with army on one side and terrorists among your own civilians on the other.

Perhaps Nostradamus was not that far of the mark in his predictions?

[hupaknomore]

30000 Germans or 30000 Muslims who live in Germany?

[hupaknomore]

Good to see the tolerant outnumber the bigots.

Who are the bigots? People who defend their culture and tradition in their own homeland?

[Friendly Stranger]

About 15 years ago I dated a muslim girl, she mentioned just wait until the hardliners start arriving, which they have. She went on to say, they're no different than the people her family fled from (Iran), as she said they'll want their way and they know how weak and emotional westerners are. She went on and on about how Canada should stop being a door matt and re-enforce it's values since this will erode and things will change. Well, she was right.

People are welcome to immigrate and embrace their new home but stop trying to change or question our way of life.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Friendly Stranger

[Friendly Stranger]

I wasn't allowed to edit my post but I wanted to add regarding bigotry, though I despise it, it's not a one way street.

[JockPieandBeans]

Good to see the tolerant outnumber the bigots.

Who are the bigots? People who defend their culture and tradition in their own homeland?

Unfortunately, if you live in Europe and stand up for your culture and traditions. You are labelled a bigot, racist is normally thrown in there too.

[nelson bunker]

Europeans are being replaced in their own countries at the speed of light. But it is not quick enough! They are demonstrating to be replaced quicker...

Talking about PC brainwashing and propaganda, here is a link from the public german tv :

http://www.tivi.de/fernsehen/logo/artikel/43770/index3.html

This cartoon is aimed at children... It explains that the people supporting PEGIDA are extremists and unhappy people only fearing about foreigners.

Also look at the picture illustrating islam, three quiet young ladies peacefully praying...

I put this link because we are talking about Germany here, but i have nothing against Germany and the Germans, au contraire...

Edited January 6, 2015 by nelson bunker

[NeverSure]

-snip-

And I daresay Merkel et al above know a whole lot better than you.

I dare say that Merkel knows a lot more about how to destroy a country than I do, and I see a lot of her people are beginning to get it.

[ubonjoe]

A abusive and inflammatory post has been removed.

[Benmart]

The sword, is often covered under the garments of peace, love and tolerance. It comes out with a vengeance when people voice their opposing views or beliefs.

One groups marches peacfully or turns out the lights in protest. Another group resorts to explosive laden vests or automatic rifles.

[gandalf12]

Good to see the tolerant outnumber the bigots.

Wait until they get Sharia law and see how tolerant they are

[NeverSure]

Good to see the tolerant outnumber the bigots.

Wait until they get Sharia law and see how tolerant they are

Maybe they'll be like the Brits and tolerate it just fine. Maybe they'll also be OK with the rapes of 1,400 of their children.

Europe, including Germany, is screwed.

[Tchooptip]

Good to see the tolerant outnumber the bigots.

Are you a converted already?

[Steely Dan]

Good to see the tolerant outnumber the bigots.

Who are the bigots? People who defend their culture and tradition in their own homeland?

According to the liberal left and the Islamic colonizers they protect evidently so.

Incidentally I wonder whether St Mary's church will be dimming it's lights to display Stockholm syndrome?

http://pamelageller.com/2014/12/germany-muslims-attack-church-goers-force-their-way-into-the-st-marys-church-shouting-shit-christians.html/

Edited January 6, 2015 by Steely Dan

[jamiesilver]

The problem is not that nations are not Tolerant - The problem is that Tolerance is being exploited by Extremist ideals in an act move in and take over.
Just look at Thailands South and how they take advantage of Thai Tolerance everyday, killing monks, innocent children, all because Thailand gave them an inch and now they want to take the mile.

[Seastallion]

The problem is not that nations are not Tolerant - The problem is that Tolerance is being exploited by Extremist ideals in an act move in and take over.

Just look at Thailands South and how they take advantage of Thai Tolerance everyday, killing monks, innocent children, all because Thailand gave them an inch and now they want to take the mile.

The 2nd half of your post is rubbish, however I agree that you may be right about extremists.

Where you fail to understand, is that extremists are only a small minority of Muslims. The moderate Muslims and the every-2nd-Friday Muslims should not be tarred with the same brush.

[arjunadawn]

Good to see the tolerant outnumber the bigots.

Besides being unsure why the two options are reduced to tolerant or bigots, I find it odd that the people protesting intolerance, barbarism, sex slavery, pedophilia, sex mutilation, inequality, oppression, bias, murder, beheading, disfigurment (all koranic virtues)- are being labled themselves "bigots."

I could be mistaken and please forgive me if incorrect, but since the article roughly suggests people who protest the barbarism of Shar'ia insinuating itself in mordern post enlightenment Europe under the color of equality are "anti-islam" I pressumed you meant they were "bigots." Regarding the entire issue: I read your post in a vacumm and agree totally, ..."good to see the tolerant outnumber the bigots" yet cannot for the life of me see where any deliberating mind assumes those who protest the bigotry are "bigots" and those who are bigots (by their own constant admission) are "tolerant." Just a different take on your post, SS; nothing personal.

[chuckd]

The problem is not that nations are not Tolerant - The problem is that Tolerance is being exploited by Extremist ideals in an act move in and take over.

Just look at Thailands South and how they take advantage of Thai Tolerance everyday, killing monks, innocent children, all because Thailand gave them an inch and now they want to take the mile.

The 2nd half of your post is rubbish, however I agree that you may be right about extremists.

Where you fail to understand, is that extremists are only a small minority of Muslims. The moderate Muslims and the every-2nd-Friday Muslims should not be tarred with the same brush.

In order for us to understand the magnitude of the problem with extremists, what percentage of Muslims do you consider a "small minority"?

[kingalfred]

Admire the Germans who came out. If it happened in the UK they would likely be charged under "race discrimination act" There are Muslim groups across Europe who believe and impose Sharia Law within their "closed communitues"over and above the laws of the country.Immigration is also a big issue in many European countries as those who are in conflict areas attempt to go to countries with socialized welfare services.

Edited January 6, 2015 by kingalfred

[Steely Dan]

Admire the Germans who came out. If it happened in the UK they would likely be charged under "race discrimination act" There are Muslim groups across Europe who believe and impose Sharia Law within their "closed communitues"over and above the laws of the country.Immigration is also a big issue in many European countries as those who are in conflict areas attempt to go to countries with socialized welfare services.

Here's some info on the tiny minority, or 47% of German Muslims who want Sharia to take precedence over the law of the land. I wonder how many of the 30,000 have any idea what Sharia law entails, except of course the Muslims who attended.

http://www.d-intl.com/2013/12/17/most-european-muslims-want-sharia/?lang=en

[Tep]

Good to see the tolerant outnumber the bigots.

Besides being unsure why the two options are reduced to tolerant or bigots, I find it odd that the people protesting intolerance, barbarism, sex slavery, pedophilia, sex mutilation, inequality, oppression, bias, murder, beheading, disfigurment (all koranic virtues)- are being labled themselves "bigots."

I could be mistaken and please forgive me if incorrect, but since the article roughly suggests people who protest the barbarism of Shar'ia insinuating itself in mordern post enlightenment Europe under the color of equality are "anti-islam" I pressumed you meant they were "bigots." Regarding the entire issue: I read your post in a vacumm and agree totally, ..."good to see the tolerant outnumber the bigots" yet cannot for the life of me see where any deliberating mind assumes those who protest the bigotry are "bigots" and those who are bigots (by their own constant admission) are "tolerant." Just a different take on your post, SS; nothing personal.

I think you are being deliberately obtuse in order to be provocative. From this and other, similar threads, I interpret two types of accusations from the one's labelled bigots or islamophobe. There may be more but the ones that stand out for me are (1) that people who commit the violent and criminal acts that you referenced i.e. pedophilia, genital mutilation etc do so because they are muslim and, (2) that because some people who are muslim committed these acts then all muslims either commit these acts or support them (or do not actively oppose them).

This reductionism is dangerous. It gets in the way of clear, thoughtful and deliberative analysis of causation and consequences of what are complex geo-political, socio-economic and religious-cultural-ideological issues.

This is the bigotry to which I and many others respond. It is anti-intellectual, generally driven by racism and often espoused by the low information, older generation underclass who mix it with general sentiments of lack of political representation. I stand with those who oppose the criminal acts that you describe. I do not subscribe to the hysteria of the anti-immigrant bigots who insist that these acts are generated by a belief system, which incidentally I also oppose as not consistent with my humanist values.

Tolerance requires that we respect diversity. Clearly those arguing for tolerance are not supporting any criminal or abusive actions by anyone of any belief system as you suggest.

[Steely Dan]

Does Sharia respect diversity. And as for the 'low information' demographic you so condescendingly refer to, I would suggest it is the majority who are the low information group due to a wall of silence and misinformation from the media and politicians.

[Seastallion]

Good to see the tolerant outnumber the bigots.

Besides being unsure why the two options are reduced to tolerant or bigots, I find it odd that the people protesting intolerance, barbarism, sex slavery, pedophilia, sex mutilation, inequality, oppression, bias, murder, beheading, disfigurment (all koranic virtues)- are being labled themselves "bigots."

I could be mistaken and please forgive me if incorrect, but since the article roughly suggests people who protest the barbarism of Shar'ia insinuating itself in mordern post enlightenment Europe under the color of equality are "anti-islam" I pressumed you meant they were "bigots." Regarding the entire issue: I read your post in a vacumm and agree totally, ..."good to see the tolerant outnumber the bigots" yet cannot for the life of me see where any deliberating mind assumes those who protest the bigotry are "bigots" and those who are bigots (by their own constant admission) are "tolerant." Just a different take on your post, SS; nothing personal.

Because, as I've said in previous posts, the protests are a guise for the bigotry. Merkel, the churches, and the protest protesters recognise this.

[Thai at Heart]

I am confused.

30,000 protested against anti Islam, (which i a double negative) or 30,000 protested against islamisation and a small number protested against the anti islamisation protests?