Some 30,000 Germans protest against anti-Islam rallies

[ggold]

indeed it is the bigotry of part of the Muslim communities in these countries, who show a lack of respect for the faith of their host country. which is causing these problems. If they want their Sharia Laws let them go live in a country that has these laws.

Ah one problem with that is, their native countries don't want them either.

Like it or not Sharia law is coming to the EU. Just a matter of time.

Much as I feel that minorities seem to get it all in the UK, I think sharia law coming to the UK has two hopes and. One of them is Bob

Maybe not in my lifetime, But very possibly in 20-30 years. You only need to look at birth rates to know it will happen eventually. As much as I like Bob Hope, People are walking under the influence of it to this eventuality.

You only need to go to the East End of London or Luton to see it is already happening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9L_zEZflFQ

the east end and Luton are not the UK ,they may practice it in their communities,but not as British law will it be implemented,as you see in Germany and Sweden the tide is turning with a vengeance,it will grow and grow ,wait and see

We shall indeed see! My only worry is that it will not be a peaceful solution. To a greater or lesser degree it has been the politicians who are to blame, They have in part engineered this situation many years ago and allowed it to get out of control.

I fear That Enoch Powell's "River of Blood" speech will become a reality!

[i claudius]

indeed it is the bigotry of part of the Muslim communities in these countries, who show a lack of respect for the faith of their host country. which is causing these problems. If they want their Sharia Laws let them go live in a country that has these laws.

Ah one problem with that is, their native countries don't want them either.

Like it or not Sharia law is coming to the EU. Just a matter of time.

Much as I feel that minorities seem to get it all in the UK, I think sharia law coming to the UK has two hopes and. One of them is Bob

Maybe not in my lifetime, But very possibly in 20-30 years. You only need to look at birth rates to know it will happen eventually. As much as I like Bob Hope, People are walking under the influence of it to this eventuality.

You only need to go to the East End of London or Luton to see it is already happening.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9L_zEZflFQ

the east end and Luton are not the UK ,they may practice it in their communities,but not as British law will it be implemented,as you see in Germany and Sweden the tide is turning with a vengeance,it will grow and grow ,wait and see

We shall indeed see! My only worry is that it will not be a peaceful solution. To a greater or lesser degree it has been the politicians who are to blame, They have in part engineered this situation many years ago and allowed it to get out of control.

I fear That Enoch Powell's "River of Blood" speech will become a reality!

I believe you are right and there are far more of us in the west than them

[simple1]

To quote Daniel Greenfield, moderate Islam is what liberals believe most Muslims believe, it doesn't actually exist. Whether Muslims are prepared or not to live within the framework of a secular democracy is a complexed question to answer. One thing is for sure, apparent assimilation is on the decline with time and numbers. To illustrate this the unemployment rate of Muslim men and women in the UK was about 8% and 15% a few decades back, whereas recently it was 50% and 75% respectively.

http://10news.dk/daniel-greenfield-moderate-islam-is-our-new-religion/

Sorry, but personally I flatly disagree with you & others who propose that there is no such entity as "Moderate Islam". Islamic ideological interpretation that is 'extremist' is clearly defined e.g. Takfir, Salafism and Wahhabism and so far as I am concerned are not subscribed to by the worldwide majority of Muslims.

Whilst it is off topic the analysis of the UK 2011 census reports that "the group with greatest economic activity in 2011 were those with no religion at 74 per cent. The groups with the lowest levels of economic activity were Muslims (55 per cent) and Christians (60 per cent)". The URL below drills down into a greater amount of detail.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_310454.pdf

[Morch]

Where you fail to understand, is that extremists are only a small minority of Muslims.

The moderate Muslims and the every-2nd-Friday Muslims should not be tarred with the same brush.

I say this term 'moderate' implies a failed, semi observant, half hearted, wishy washy, limp wristed cherry picking lapsed extremist. It is that - 'every second friday' fellow you refer to, which yes makes up the bulk of those out there clinging to the identity of 'Muslim'. In other words, the mass who haven't got what it takes to commit to the uncompromising amibitious conditions and dictates of Islam. We find them nice to get on with (and they, with us) precisely because a common sense / common humanity wins over the bull doo doo. Everyone likes someone who is easy going / flexible, hence why the bulk of those labelling themselves Muslim are indeed pleasant. Islam was never meant to be flexible and easy going with other ideologies. It fully intended to 'be' the one ideology, globally, eventually. Of the ones who do obey what is demanded of them, in other circles they would be regarded as cult members. All the 'moderate' bulk out there, non issue. It is that cult army, growing in popularity globally, which should be our focus of concern. "Don't blame Islam, the majority of Muslims are good people" or similar, could be said to be an unwillingness to recognise that cult army.

It seems that there is not much of an argument regarding extremists (or "devout", "observant", "orthodox", "practicing", "zealots"), other than, perhaps, their relative numbers among Muslims. Assuming this group (or groups) is beyond the reach of reasoning - it makes them less interesting as a prospect for any possible future solution. That's more of a big stick thing.

The issues discussed are usually more to do with the group described above, and tend to be governed by views seeing it as potential (or, for some, actual) threat, a passive herd, or good folk wishing nothing that to live ordinary lives. Obviously people have different personal experiences regarding this (which could mean that things are not that uniform).

If the view presented in the quoted post is to be accepted, it raises a question of whether this group could be relatively easily turned about and be corrupted by secular ways, or if their Muslim affiliation makes them "damaged goods" and beyond salvage, as the religious imperative will always win when push comes to shove.

The nature of democracies often prevents them from taking up long term goals which may, or may not, bear fruit somewhere down the line. Democracies, at least nowadays, are more about short term effects and presentable results. As such, tackling these sort of issues (in whichever fashion) is rarely more than an exercise in garnering favorable public opinion and political power.

To quote Daniel Greenfield, moderate Islam is what liberals believe most Muslims believe, it doesn't actually exist. Whether Muslims are prepared or not to live within the framework of a secular democracy is a complexed question to answer. One thing is for sure, apparent assimilation is on the decline with time and numbers. To illustrate this the unemployment rate of Muslim men and women in the UK was about 8% and 15% a few decades back, whereas recently it was 50% and 75% respectively.

http://10news.dk/daniel-greenfield-moderate-islam-is-our-new-religion/

It would be so much better if you could support your position without having to rely on quoting loons (not to mention Sennels, which is a class act on another level). There is not even a shortage of good arguments - not many would argue that tougher immigration controls are needed, better integration required or that by and large, immigrants should not be overly demanding of the host country.

At times it seems as if the position taken is that any person raised, in some level or another, within a Muslim society - he is from then on considered beyond "redemption". An irreversible, one way process of sorts. It is forever coded in his being.

Umm, ok...that does sound a bit like echoes of other times.

Attributing such powers of conditioning to Islam is almost a religious point of view by itself. Given the proper incentives, positive or otherwise, human beings are very morally and socially agile. If the working assumption regarding Islam suggests that it is so immensely powerful and cannot be "beaten" (whatever that means), then what is the point of raging?

There is no denying that there are grave issues with Islam, Muslims, and the interaction with everything that isn't. There is no denying that these things are seen in greater contrast when they happen in the West. Saying that Islam and Muslims are simply misunderstood, wronged, discriminated against for nothing....yeah, don't buy into that as well. However, how does raising Islam into this humongous bogeyman which cannot be tackled, but at best delayed some contribute to a solution?

[Steely Dan]

I earnestly hope Simple1 is right and I am wrong. I could reel off supporting evidence for all my assertions, but that would get us too far away from the original topic. Sure Islam is not an edifice in how it is practiced, but it is the Wahabs and Salafists who have the financial clout behind them to proselytize, something Western governments seem totally unwilling or unable to deal with. Returning to Germany I believe the National socialists had about 33% support. When they came to power, using a strategy akin to the Mafia makes gaining control of a population possible without anything approaching a majority. So operationally we are dealing with a monolithic bogey man. Incidentally support for Sharia law exists with a majority of Muslims I wonder how many non-Muslims in Europe know this and indeed what Sharia law entails.

http://chersonandmolschky.com/2014/04/07/support-sharia-law-world/

Support for Sharia 65% in France, Germany, Holland, Belgium and Sweden combined.

In response to Morch procrastination is no solution, even some in the Muslim world seem to see this what with Egypt tackling the Muslim brotherhood and making an appeal to Al-Azhar to modernize scripture interpretation. At the end of the day this is a problem Muslims have to resolve themselves, best we take steps not to fall victims in the meantime.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Steely Dan

[kingalfred]

See the news from Paris now 12 murdered who dared write something about the prophet Mohammad. Intolerance personified=Islamic religion. French NF are going to have a field day now.

[Morch]

I earnestly hope Simple1 is right and I am wrong. I could reel off supporting evidence for all my assertions, but that would get us too far away from the original topic. Sure Islam is not an edifice in how it is practiced, but it is the Wahabs and Salafists who have the financial clout behind them to proselytize, something Western governments seem totally unwilling or unable to deal with. Returning to Germany I believe the National socialists had about 33% support. When they came to power, using a strategy akin to the Mafia makes gaining control of a population possible without anything approaching a majority. So operationally we are dealing with a monolithic bogey man. Incidentally support for Sharia law exists with a majority of Muslims I wonder how many non-Muslims in Europe know this and indeed what Sharia law entails.

http://chersonandmolschky.com/2014/04/07/support-sharia-law-world/

Support for Sharia 65% in France, Germany, Holland, Belgium and Sweden combined.

In response to Morch procrastination is no solution, even some in the Muslim world seem to see this what with Egypt tackling the Muslim brotherhood and making an appeal to Al-Azhar to modernize scripture interpretation. At the end of the day this is a problem Muslims have to resolve themselves, best we take steps not to fall victims in the meantime.

Which part of my post was "procrastination" referring to?

[Noi657]

Before moving to Thailand I thought that it was the UK that had serious issues, after being here 5 months and speaking to many nationalities it seems it's all over Europe and even our good friends the Aussies too.

If anyone thinks these extremists, radicals or whatever you wish to call them will ever overrun the above... Dream on!

It'll never happen, while governments sit idle, the people won't!

You keep poking that stick at a dog and eventually it will bite!

Mainstream political parties need to watch their backs as there's big alternatives out there now and they've only themselves to blame. Your in government to represent and look after your people, DO IT!

[45slap]

Yeah, a few extremists. Look around the world. That's a few extremists? Wrong. Time to toughen up. Tolerance and laying down to be trampled under foot are not the same thing. Time to bring back napalm.

[ChoakMyDee]

Every time there is a major news item of another massacre of innocent people by Islamic extremists or Islamic terrorists or whatever you want to call them, I am thinking, now finally, governments will begin to take measures to protect their citizens and root out these people. Today we have the massacre in Paris. All governments are making statements condemning the killings, calling them cowardly, talking about how important freedom of speech is, saying their thoughts and prayers are with the families of the victims etc. etc. blah blah blah. This story will eventually die down until the next massacre...there will once again be statements made condemning the killings...once again nothing will be done ad infinitem. One wonders how long it will take and how many people must die before simply making statements on TV will not be enough.

[keebone]

Those demonstrating peacefully in Germany get dismissed at bigots by people who should know better, meanwhile over the border in France the real bigots are slaughtering innocents.

[ravip]

The muslims will use European political correctness to achieve their aim.

Political correctness or political mistake?

This should be reviewed!

[ravip]

Every time there is a major news item of another massacre of innocent people by Islamic extremists or Islamic terrorists or whatever you want to call them, I am thinking, now finally, governments will begin to take measures to protect their citizens and root out these people.

Terrorism is nothing new.

It existed in many countries for decades and many Governments in poor countries were fighting this scourge at great expense. Unfortunately, powerful Governments were preaching about 'human rights' to these Governments who were having a tough time eliminating the terrorists. The worst was, these terrorists (renamed by some 'human right Experts' as freedom fighters, combatants and other fancy names) were allowed into these powerful Governments countries and given full freedom to carry out their deathly missions from these safe havens.

Little did they realize. A terrorist is always a terrorist.

NOW, the party is slowly starting and the host countries are feeling the pinch!

Terrorism should be eliminated without ANY excuses and apologists helping them too should be given the same treatment.

Should wars be made comfortable to prolong the fight?

Edit

If wars stop, what would happen to the countries who are manufacturing and supplying arms to these terrorists, earning huge profits?

Edited January 8, 2015 by ravip

[rijb]

The problem is not that nations are not Tolerant - The problem is that Tolerance is being exploited by Extremist ideals in an act move in and take over.

Just look at Thailands South and how they take advantage of Thai Tolerance everyday, killing monks, innocent children, all because Thailand gave them an inch and now they want to take the mile.

The 2nd half of your post is rubbish, however I agree that you may be right about extremists.

Where you fail to understand, is that extremists are only a small minority of Muslims. The moderate Muslims and the every-2nd-Friday Muslims should not be tarred with the same brush.

In order for us to understand the magnitude of the problem with extremists, what percentage of Muslims do you consider a "small minority"?

I'm more worried about the 'majority' that won't stand up to the 'small minority'.

[chuckd]

<snip>

Edit

If wars stop, what would happen to the countries who are manufacturing and supplying arms to these terrorists, earning huge profits?

I expect the economies of China, Russia and certain eastern European countries would suffer.

[Somtamnication]

Wonder how many of those 30000 Germans will rally against anti-islam now thanks to the France massacre.

[CMNightRider]

I wasn't allowed to edit my post but I wanted to add regarding bigotry, though I despise it, it's not a one way street.

indeed it is the bigotry of part of the Muslim communities in these countries, who show a lack of respect for the faith of their host country. which is causing these problems. If they want their Sharia Laws let them go live in a country that has these laws.

Ah one problem with that is, their native countries don't want them either.

Like it or not Sharia law is coming to the EU. Just a matter of time.

Much as I feel that minorities seem to get it all in the UK, I think sharia law coming to the UK has two hopes and. One of them is Bob

Maybe not in my lifetime, But very possibly in 20-30 years. You only need to look at birth rates to know it will happen eventually. As much as I like Bob Hope!

You only need to go to the East End of London or Luton to see it is already happening.

The video you posted depicts the menace the Muslims pose once their numbers increase. Southern Thailand is a prime example. The european countries that opened their borders to these people are starting to pay a heavy price. The Muslims are right up there with the bubonic plague and liberalism.

[Steely Dan]

I earnestly hope Simple1 is right and I am wrong. I could reel off supporting evidence for all my assertions, but that would get us too far away from the original topic. Sure Islam is not an edifice in how it is practiced, but it is the Wahabs and Salafists who have the financial clout behind them to proselytize, something Western governments seem totally unwilling or unable to deal with. Returning to Germany I believe the National socialists had about 33% support. When they came to power, using a strategy akin to the Mafia makes gaining control of a population possible without anything approaching a majority. So operationally we are dealing with a monolithic bogey man. Incidentally support for Sharia law exists with a majority of Muslims I wonder how many non-Muslims in Europe know this and indeed what Sharia law entails.

http://chersonandmolschky.com/2014/04/07/support-sharia-law-world/

Support for Sharia 65% in France, Germany, Holland, Belgium and Sweden combined.

In response to Morch procrastination is no solution, even some in the Muslim world seem to see this what with Egypt tackling the Muslim brotherhood and making an appeal to Al-Azhar to modernize scripture interpretation. At the end of the day this is a problem Muslims have to resolve themselves, best we take steps not to fall victims in the meantime.

Which part of my post was "procrastination" referring to?

You didn't quite get my drift. I would first say I agree with most of the observations you made, it's a shame you didn't control issues such as immigration and integration within the E.U for the last couple of decades. As it is the acceleration of violence and inter-cultural unrest is undeniable, yet still as the OP demonstrates many people are so unaware of the problems they march for tolerance but infact might as well march against it. This is why I say there is no more time for procrastination, we're on the cusp of very serious unrest without speedy and radical action to stop the rot.

,e

[Morch]

I earnestly hope Simple1 is right and I am wrong. I could reel off supporting evidence for all my assertions, but that would get us too far away from the original topic. Sure Islam is not an edifice in how it is practiced, but it is the Wahabs and Salafists who have the financial clout behind them to proselytize, something Western governments seem totally unwilling or unable to deal with. Returning to Germany I believe the National socialists had about 33% support. When they came to power, using a strategy akin to the Mafia makes gaining control of a population possible without anything approaching a majority. So operationally we are dealing with a monolithic bogey man. Incidentally support for Sharia law exists with a majority of Muslims I wonder how many non-Muslims in Europe know this and indeed what Sharia law entails.

http://chersonandmolschky.com/2014/04/07/support-sharia-law-world/

Support for Sharia 65% in France, Germany, Holland, Belgium and Sweden combined.

In response to Morch procrastination is no solution, even some in the Muslim world seem to see this what with Egypt tackling the Muslim brotherhood and making an appeal to Al-Azhar to modernize scripture interpretation. At the end of the day this is a problem Muslims have to resolve themselves, best we take steps not to fall victims in the meantime.

Which part of my post was "procrastination" referring to?

You didn't quite get my drift. I would first say I agree with most of the observations you made, it's a shame you didn't control issues such as immigration and integration within the E.U for the last couple of decades. As it is the acceleration of violence and inter-cultural unrest is undeniable, yet still as the OP demonstrates many people are so unaware of the problems they march for tolerance but infact might as well march against it. This is why I say there is no more time for procrastination, we're on the cusp of very serious unrest without speedy and radical action to stop the rot.

,e

Well, shoot "procrastination" at me and all those feeling of guilt over things I ought to be doing surface...

That policy adjustments could and should have been considered earlier, yes.

The issue with procrastination is that it can lead to things coming to a head and rash decisions being taken as form of over compensation. So while I agree that things need to change, my reservations are with the manner decision will be taken and as to their scope. Many of the posts appearing on TVF are an indication that things could go too far (and TVF is rather mild when compared with certain corners of the internet). On the other hand, politicians are adept at doing nothing, which understandably gives reason to suspect appeals for thinking things through.

[7by7]

<snip>

You only need to go to the East End of London or Luton to see it is already happening.

Why is it that whenever people post about so called sharia patrols they never post the full story?

Such patrols are illegal and the offenders arrested and punished.

Another example to add to the many posted whenever Sharia patrols have been mentioned before: ‘Muslim Patrol’ vigilantes jailed for attempts to impose sharia law in London

These patrols were also condemned by local Muslim leaders, for example: Unwelcome 'patrols' - 17 Jan 2013

These actions are utterly unacceptable and clearly designed to stoke tensions and sow discord. We wholly condemn them. The East London Mosque is committed to building co-operation and harmony between all communities in this borough. The actions of this tiny minority have no place in our faith nor on our streets.

N.B. The East London mosque has in the past been, rightfully, criticised for hosting talks by radicals and extremists such as Anjem Choudrey; but have significantly cleaned up their act in recent years and expelled such people.

[Steely Dan]

<snip>
You only need to go to the East End of London or Luton to see it is already happening.

Why is it that whenever people post about so called sharia patrols they never post the full story?

Such patrols are illegal and the offenders arrested and punished.

Another example to add to the many posted whenever Sharia patrols have been mentioned before: ‘Muslim Patrol’ vigilantes jailed for attempts to impose sharia law in London

These patrols were also condemned by local Muslim leaders, for example: Unwelcome 'patrols' - 17 Jan 2013

These actions are utterly unacceptable and clearly designed to stoke tensions and sow discord. We wholly condemn them. The East London Mosque is committed to building co-operation and harmony between all communities in this borough. The actions of this tiny minority have no place in our faith nor on our streets.
N.B. The East London mosque has in the past been, rightfully, criticised for hosting talks by radicals and extremists such as Anjem Choudrey; but have significantly cleaned up their act in recent years and expelled such people.

I guess that's a step up from the Dutch police who actually paid sharia patrols from a Salafist mosque in The Hague to patrol on New Year's Eve.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Scott

[7by7]

They were not enforcing Sharia law and they were not paid.

Despite their headline, even this anti Islamic site has to admit they were volunteers!

Volunteers of the As-Sunnah mosque were patrolling the Transvaal and Schilderswijk districts of The Hague on New Year’s Eve in order to prevent young people from causing trouble. The mosque also organized some activities for young people in the old school building “Het Startpunt”.

The volunteers of the mosque were rewarded with tourist vouchers.

Local people volunteering to help the police in their local area on probably the busiest night of the year. Happens in most large towns or cities.