Bangkok's new bus fleet saga: why Scania, Volvo opt out

[bitcoinbob]

Venezuela has oil china loans them 30 billion signs swap agreement for RMB. then tells them to buy all their defense weapons from China. Buy weapons from China of course they break total shit ,pissed off there old weapons suppliers Europeans , now they have to buy Russian . Chinese business model same will happen here. Chinese women visits japan biggest surprise amazed how everything in Japan always works,

[Jim walker]

China hates foreigners muscling in on their territories they will undercut any price.

[wvavin]

One word speaks all ------ MONEY!

[sawati]

I don't know buses...but who would be the likely winner and from what country?

China?

I'm guessing, as I really have no clue, but would be interested.

Did you honestly have to ask that question ? Take the blinkers off

Here's a clue, "Table" a place they hold the meetings, "Under" below - out of sight - beneath

Under the table...

National Sport.

[Sadana]

China actually has a very good bus fac tory with also factories in Thailand.

However the majority shareholders are Indian. Bus brand is called Golden Dragon.

http://www.goldendragonbus.com

Although I am not a real China-fan. Some products are of good quality.

[ldiablo]

Pay me now or pay me later. Cheaper is not always the best option. Cost per km,mile,hour is what is important, and durability.

[casualbiker]

China actually has a very good bus fac tory with also factories in Thailand.

However the majority shareholders are Indian. Bus brand is called Golden Dragon.

http://www.goldendragonbus.com

Although I am not a real China-fan. Some products are of good quality.

See post #22 for very good Golden Dragon buses.. actually look at any one of the 2-3 year old yellow buses and come back and say quality!

[chotthee]

I don't know buses...but who would be the likely winner and from what country?

China?

I'm guessing, as I really have no clue, but would be interested.

China goods is good and cheap.

Don't be ashamed by shopping at a discounter (like big c) rather than hiso shopping mall (like Paragon)

[neverdie]

China actually has a very good bus fac tory with also factories in Thailand.

However the majority shareholders are Indian. Bus brand is called Golden Dragon.

http://www.goldendragonbus.com

Although I am not a real China-fan. Some products are of good quality.

See post #22 for very good Golden Dragon buses.. actually look at any one of the 2-3 year old yellow buses and come back and say quality!

I wouldn't buy a Golden Dragon toothpick yet alone a bus.

Buying cheap heavy machinery ALWAYS ends in tears.

[bkk_mike]

I'm sure they took a look at the fines Siemens had to pay and decided they wanted to steer clear of a procurement process that might lead them to getting similar fines...

Remember, the Bangkok film festival saga, where people were jailed in the US for bribing Thai officials, yet apparently sufficient proof for a US court was insufficient proof in Thailand to arrest the person they allegedly bribed.

[kingstonkid]

I think it would be interesting to see who did bid on this. For instance there are a lot of highway coaches running around Thailand. Who makes them. While I agree that China seems the most likely country to deal with there are other countries as well that could get into this the US for instance has a few bus manufacturers.

[ratcatcher]

BMTA, like many people,".. know the price of everything and the value of nothing." Oscar Wilde.

"Quality lives on long after the price is forgotten". Henry Royce (budget car maker).

A fact that Volvo and Scania, both making high quality commercial vehicles, are both fully aware of.

[SinCityGr8One]

I don't know buses...but who would be the likely winner and from what country?

China?

I'm guessing, as I really have no clue, but would be interested.

I worked for a Chinese coach manufacturing company. I assure you, you wouldn't want to buy a Chinese coach/bus. Materials are cheap, crash testing is non-existent, technology is 20 years old, and anything slightly new is copied (patent infringed, should I say).

As for Thailand, a Chinese source is a likely winner, however, because cheap, user unfriendly, unsafe, and crap quality matters not here. What matters, and what mattered to Volvo and Scania, are the bent takings by the offerers of bids. The undertable corruption was something the Western companies had no interest in being involved in, especially when they realised the graft was ultimately reducing, or projecting to reduce, their end sales prices.

Volvo nor Scania need Thailand as an entity or major market to compete worldwide, and so it is another loss to Thailand which keeps it years behind all the other developing countries. I think I made myself perfectly clear?

Perfectly clear. It appears that Thailand is rushing to become another "Hub". Perhaps, the Hub of underdevelopment?

[robblok]

China actually has a very good bus fac tory with also factories in Thailand.

However the majority shareholders are Indian. Bus brand is called Golden Dragon.

http://www.goldendragonbus.com

Although I am not a real China-fan. Some products are of good quality.

See post #22 for very good Golden Dragon buses.. actually look at any one of the 2-3 year old yellow buses and come back and say quality!

I wouldn't buy a Golden Dragon toothpick yet alone a bus.

Buying cheap heavy machinery ALWAYS ends in tears.

Its better to invest in quality, however it will be a hard sell to the Thai government.

I never buy cheap crap, good tools are important for whatever work you do. It will come back and cost you more in the end. Though at some point the extra money is not word the extra quality (think computers for instance top of the line might be a foolish thing to buy)

[neverdie]

China actually has a very good bus fac tory with also factories in Thailand.

However the majority shareholders are Indian. Bus brand is called Golden Dragon.

http://www.goldendragonbus.com

Although I am not a real China-fan. Some products are of good quality.

See post #22 for very good Golden Dragon buses.. actually look at any one of the 2-3 year old yellow buses and come back and say quality!

I wouldn't buy a Golden Dragon toothpick yet alone a bus.

Buying cheap heavy machinery ALWAYS ends in tears.

Its better to invest in quality, however it will be a hard sell to the Thai government.

I never buy cheap crap, good tools are important for whatever work you do. It will come back and cost you more in the end. Though at some point the extra money is not word the extra quality (think computers for instance top of the line might be a foolish thing to buy)

Rob,

I agree with what you said mate, however, if you were a digital pikey, then you might see value in the top of the range notebook.....but for hacks like you and I, an old klanger will do the job.

It's all relative.

[HiSoLowSoNoSo]

How many of the rulers (Junta/ politicians and their family members) been on a public bus in their life? If this deal was about what kind of grass to be used on the putting greens on the military owned golf courses, I am sure of that the Volvo/Scania type kind of product would be bought without any questions (discounts, bribes) asked for.

[biplanebluey]

they want the cheapest bid so they can then "pad" it to add to their personal bank accounts.

You have just hit the nail on the head------------- More and more corruption.And the general public suffer as the elite squad prosper.I am gradually losing faith with our leader who seems to constantly keep coming out with suggestions that the common people should teach children to be hunble,should look to Buddha for guideance,be in good terms with the people around you ,and all live happily ever after. It's not anything to do with tackling the real problems of corruption.When he first took over I was fervently listening to his speeches and clapping and applauding at his every word,but as time has gone on and nothing has made a lot of difference,we hear of BLATANT corruption,and I am losing faith perhaps in his ABULITY to get to grips with corruption,Am I expecting too much in too short a time------ Or has he been got at and decided that something (something?) is the better part of valour.

[Christie Paul]

Specs are specs. China can make any quality you want.

But the fact that two of most successful, competitive and highly regarded bus manufacturers would rather bail out of the process of trying to sell a zillion dollars worth of buses, would seem to indicate that they could not cope with the odious stench of corruption involved.

[Jonmarleesco]

'Politicians ... did not seem to be able to agree on the simple task of drawing up a coherent and clear-cut TOR ...' Nothing that involves politicians is simple. And cost-effectiveness, high environmental standards and passenger comfort would be low down the political priority list.

'... revisions made to the TOR also gave rise to widely-publicized allegations that the whole procurement process has been rigged in favour of certain manufacturers.' Never!!

'... we challenge BMTA to look at total life cycle cost, which is the purchasing price plus fuel cost and maintenance cost over, say 10 or 15 years ...”' I doubt they would expect tea money to last that long.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Jonmarleesco

[cookee68]

I don't know buses...but who would be the likely winner and from what country?

China?

I'm guessing, as I really have no clue, but would be interested.

Thailand wants cheap crap buses and wont pay for safety or comfort, so I guess they should look at China or India, because they don't give a shit what they sell, or how bad it is

[borisloosebrain]

Too many officials interested in one thing only. I remember a story in the Bangkok Post in 1998 about the BTS having to settle for using three carriages per train rather than the original plan to have five because so many officials had taken their slice of the budget as it made its way through the various levels of government.

Edited January 6, 2015 by borisloosebrain

[tonbridgebrit]

Scania and Volvo make quality prooducts that last and that cost a little more

Thailand seems to prefer buying chinese crap at knock off prices

Whether by rail or by bus Thailand is going Chinese ... will soon enough turn into rusty garbage

really must be a slow news day inn Thailand as this was printed late last year

I don't know buses...but who would be the likely winner and from what country?

China?

I'm guessing, as I really have no clue, but would be interested.

I worked for a Chinese coach manufacturing company. I assure you, you wouldn't want to buy a Chinese coach/bus. Materials are cheap, crash testing is non-existent, technology is 20 years old, and anything slightly new is copied (patent infringed, should I say).

As for Thailand, a Chinese source is a likely winner, however, because cheap, user unfriendly, unsafe, and crap quality matters not here. What matters, and what mattered to Volvo and Scania, are the bent takings by the offerers of bids. The undertable corruption was something the Western companies had no interest in being involved in, especially when they realised the graft was ultimately reducing, or projecting to reduce, their end sales prices.

Volvo nor Scania need Thailand as an entity or major market to compete worldwide, and so it is another loss to Thailand which keeps it years behind all the other developing countries. I think I made myself perfectly clear?

Politician's son wants a lambo, so what's he gonna do? Scania buses will last years longer than the Chinese crap, but why should these idiots be interested, they can't even think weeks ahead. Volvo and Scania will be safer, but since when has road safety been of importance in Thailand.

I do have a bit of a smirk on my face when I see people putting up posts about the "Chinese made crap".

And then there's talk about manufacturers in Europe not needing Thailand.

Okay, let's get real here. The goods from China are cheaper than goods from Europe and it might make sense to pay less for not so long lasting goods. A lot of the goods from China are almost the same quality as made in Europe or America. It certainly doesn't make sense to have flat screen televisions made in Europe, even if they are better quality. It's much more "price competitive" when made in China. Yes, "price competitive", that just means cheaper.

More and more manufactured goods are coming out of China. Cheaper transport will see increased amounts of Chinese made goods in Europe, and maybe America too. Okay, people have resentment that there is a flood of Chinese imports entering into Europe and America, and the big trade deficit is continuing. But it's silly to vent out your anger by constantly going on about cheap Chinese crap.

It might make more sense (if you feel this way) to try and educate people about the crap goods. Tell them "do not buy Chinese crap, buy European stuff, it lasts longer. it's cheaper in the long term, and it reduces our huge trade deficit with China".

As for manufacturers in Europe not really caring, well, I wonder. Well, European manufacturers are simply unable to compete with the cheaper Chinese goods. Manufacturing in Europe is in danger of being decimated because it can't compete when exporting to countries outside of the European Union, and the EU itself is being flooded by goods from China. European manufacturers might have a problem trying to sell goods in Europe itself. Actually, it's happening as we speak.

And it's best not to go on and on about present politicians being corrupt, demanding kick-backs. It's against the rules to make such negative comments. Accussing people of demanding kick-backs is a pretty serious accusation.

[berybert]

Scania and Volvo make quality prooducts that last and that cost a little more

Thailand seems to prefer buying chinese crap at knock off prices

Whether by rail or by bus Thailand is going Chinese ... will soon enough turn into rusty garbage

really must be a slow news day inn Thailand as this was printed late last year

I do have a bit of a smirk on my face when I see people putting up posts about the "Chinese made crap".

And then there's talk about manufacturers in Europe not needing Thailand.

Okay, let's get real here. The goods from China are cheaper than goods from Europe and it might make sense to pay less for not so long lasting goods. A lot of the goods from China are almost the same quality as made in Europe or America. It certainly doesn't make sense to have flat screen televisions made in Europe, even if they are better quality. It's much more "price competitive" when made in China. Yes, "price competitive", that just means cheaper.

More and more manufactured goods are coming out of China. Cheaper transport will see increased amounts of Chinese made goods in Europe, and maybe America too. Okay, people have resentment that there is a flood of Chinese imports entering into Europe and America, and the big trade deficit is continuing. But it's silly to vent out your anger by constantly going on about cheap Chinese crap.

It might make more sense (if you feel this way) to try and educate people about the crap goods. Tell them "do not buy Chinese crap, buy European stuff, it lasts longer. it's cheaper in the long term, and it reduces our huge trade deficit with China".

As for manufacturers in Europe not really caring, well, I wonder. Well, European manufacturers are simply unable to compete with the cheaper Chinese goods. Manufacturing in Europe is in danger of being decimated because it can't compete when exporting to countries outside of the European Union, and the EU itself is being flooded by goods from China. European manufacturers might have a problem trying to sell goods in Europe itself. Actually, it's happening as we speak.

And it's best not to go on and on about present politicians being corrupt, demanding kick-backs. It's against the rules to make such negative comments. Accussing people of demanding kick-backs is a pretty serious accusation.

Your post makes a lot of sense. But realize a crap cheap tv can be replaced 2 or 3 times less than the cost of a decent European model. Sadly a cheap crap coach that folds up on impact isn't quite the same. You wont be offered the chance to rebook the journey.

[halloween]

Yingluk goes to Sweden and discusses city busses, having a keen interest as she catches one to parliament most days. "What colours do they come in? Will they need lunch boxes?"

[tonbridgebrit]

Scania and Volvo make quality prooducts that last and that cost a little more

Thailand seems to prefer buying chinese crap at knock off prices

Whether by rail or by bus Thailand is going Chinese ... will soon enough turn into rusty garbage

really must be a slow news day inn Thailand as this was printed late last year

I do have a bit of a smirk on my face when I see people putting up posts about the "Chinese made crap".

And then there's talk about manufacturers in Europe not needing Thailand.

Okay, let's get real here. The goods from China are cheaper than goods from Europe and it might make sense to pay less for not so long lasting goods. A lot of the goods from China are almost the same quality as made in Europe or America. It certainly doesn't make sense to have flat screen televisions made in Europe, even if they are better quality. It's much more "price competitive" when made in China. Yes, "price competitive", that just means cheaper.

More and more manufactured goods are coming out of China. Cheaper transport will see increased amounts of Chinese made goods in Europe, and maybe America too. Okay, people have resentment that there is a flood of Chinese imports entering into Europe and America, and the big trade deficit is continuing. But it's silly to vent out your anger by constantly going on about cheap Chinese crap.

It might make more sense (if you feel this way) to try and educate people about the crap goods. Tell them "do not buy Chinese crap, buy European stuff, it lasts longer. it's cheaper in the long term, and it reduces our huge trade deficit with China".

As for manufacturers in Europe not really caring, well, I wonder. Well, European manufacturers are simply unable to compete with the cheaper Chinese goods. Manufacturing in Europe is in danger of being decimated because it can't compete when exporting to countries outside of the European Union, and the EU itself is being flooded by goods from China. European manufacturers might have a problem trying to sell goods in Europe itself. Actually, it's happening as we speak.

And it's best not to go on and on about present politicians being corrupt, demanding kick-backs. It's against the rules to make such negative comments. Accussing people of demanding kick-backs is a pretty serious accusation.

Your post makes a lot of sense. But realize a crap cheap tv can be replaced 2 or 3 times less than the cost of a decent European model. Sadly a cheap crap coach that folds up on impact isn't quite the same. You wont be offered the chance to rebook the journey.

I certainly can't argue against you ! We agree, a Chinese made television will not last more than four years. You can pay double money for one that's not made in China, and it will last eight years, maybe longer if you're lucky. But do people who make up the general public, do they actually want one to last eight years ?? Most people actually want to replace their television after a few years, because they want the latest model !

By the way, I know people who have got radios,clocks, etc, that were made in Britain (or some where in Europe), and they've lasted two decades or more. It's still being used.

But the issue of the crap coach folding on impact, that, off-course, is not funny. Needs to be considered. As a few other people have said, safety is not something that is very much part of some people's thinking.

[jacko45k]

Scania and Volvo make quality prooducts that last and that cost a little more

Thailand seems to prefer buying chinese crap at knock off prices

Whether by rail or by bus Thailand is going Chinese ... will soon enough turn into rusty garbage

really must be a slow news day inn Thailand as this was printed late last year

The 'alternative' will not only be much cheaper than European products, but everyone involved will be driving around in a high end European vehicle themselves, so what do they care.

[BSJ]

Ultimately it doesn't matter who the supplier is as the ongoing maintenance will be performed in a slipshod manner. Imagine this, somchai has to work on a mechanical and electrical system that is so different from the old Isuzu and MB buses he will scratch his head in wonder. Huh!!!

[robertson468]

Scania and Volvo make quality prooducts that last and that cost a little more

Thailand seems to prefer buying chinese crap at knock off prices

Whether by rail or by bus Thailand is going Chinese ... will soon enough turn into rusty garbage

really must be a slow news day inn Thailand as this was printed late last year

The same as UK going for high speed Chinese Trains?

[wabothai]

Perhaps TRUST was the issue of "no thanks".

[tonbridgebrit]

Scania and Volvo make quality prooducts that last and that cost a little more

Thailand seems to prefer buying chinese crap at knock off prices

Whether by rail or by bus Thailand is going Chinese ... will soon enough turn into rusty garbage

really must be a slow news day inn Thailand as this was printed late last year

The same as UK going for high speed Chinese Trains?

Well, off-course !! When Thailand does this, it's called 'buying Chinese crap'. When Britain does it, it's called 'buying a cost-competitive product' !

This is mainly about a load of people venting out their resentment about seeing Chinese products all over the world. Yes, some of the stuff coming out of China is poor quality, but most of it is almost the same as stuff made outside of China.

Those who write about cheap Chinese crap should be forced to admit that half the stuff they have is made in China, or places like India or Bangladesh. Point out that other people are doing it, but don't mention that you're doing it yourself !!

(off-course, when I say 'YOU', I don't mean you robertson !!)