When politicians shelter behind uniforms

[JOC]

>>Corruption is often cited, most often along with questionable loyalty to the monarchy.<< Quote from OP

Therein lies the problem!! As long as the generals can hide behind and threaten with the "institution", nothing is going to change.

[rubl]

actually I think he's quoting from the current school books.

Can't be, reference to the Shinawatras was supposed to be removed, allegedly that is

Actually, I think a number of posters here may suffer serious disappointment in the long run. I recently came across this comment:-

"Mr Prem’s likely successor as a linchpin of Thai politics, Prawit Wongsuwan, is a mentor to Mr Prayuth who is now serving as defence minister. But Mr Prawit also served as army chief under Mr Thaksin. One of Mr Thaksin’s foot soldiers says the two sides are in “constant conversation”. Could Mr Prawit be a go-between between Mr Thaksin’s side and the generals?" (Economist, 6 December 2014)

Well I wouldn't put money on it but I suspect that the whole business may turn out very differently from what we currently anticipate. To re-phrase an old Yorkshire saying, "Where there's money, there's compromise".

I've seen the article and a few others. Some of the contents makes it difficult to quote the links or even parts of them.

However one may think about the current NCPO, Thaksin would not be a better alternative. The people are still being used. Also in the end a military uniform or a police uniform doesn't really matter.

[tullynagardy]

However one may think about the current NCPO, Thaksin would not be a better alternative. The people are still being used

Huh? Is that you talking sense?

Good to see you have finally worked out the average Thai, yellow or red, is being used by higher powers, with the end beneficiaries these shady background forces and not the general population.

The current junta is no different.

[rubl]

However one may think about the current NCPO, Thaksin would not be a better alternative. The people are still being used

Huh? Is that you talking sense?

Good to see you have finally worked out the average Thai, yellow or red, is being used by higher powers, with the end beneficiaries these shady background forces and not the general population.

The current junta is no different.

If you hadn't been so extreme negative regarding the NCPO and so positive about the lot some want to return to you would have noticed sooner than this.

Mind you I have frequently said that real reforms will even unpleasantly surprise those asking for it.

[waitforusalso]

A student was kicked out of TV Ch5 program after asking NRC head if seizing power by coup is a corruption (of power)

[rubl]

A student was kicked out of TV Ch5 program after asking NRC head if seizing power by coup is a corruption (of power)

Not that I doubt you, but I would like to know more. Any link?

Am asking because I only found

2014-11-25

"The government will set up forums to allow students to express their views on reform after intelligence units learned that more anti-coup and anti-government protests are being planned, PM's Office Minister Suwaphan Tanyuvardhana said yesterday."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Students-to-get-forums-to-air-views-30248482.html

and

2014-12-22

"No anti-coup student activist participated in the junta’s national reform forum organized to collect students’ opinions on reform; they say that they do not want to be part of the apparatus of the military government. "

http://prachatai.org/english/node/4626

Edited January 10, 2015 by rubl

[waitforusalso]

A student was kicked out of TV Ch5 program after asking NRC head if seizing power by coup is a corruption (of power)

Not that I doubt you, but I would like to know more. Any link?

Am asking because I only found

2014-11-25

"The government will set up forums to allow students to express their views on reform after intelligence units learned that more anti-coup and anti-government protests are being planned, PM's Office Minister Suwaphan Tanyuvardhana said yesterday."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Students-to-get-forums-to-air-views-30248482.html

and

2014-12-22

"No anti-coup student activist participated in the junta’s national reform forum organized to collect students’ opinions on reform; they say that they do not want to be part of the apparatus of the military government. "

http://prachatai.org/english/node/4626

http://prachatai.org/journal/2015/01/57341

I assume that a man with so much knowledge & experience with Thailand will have no worries reading the link.

[EnglishJohn]

the very foundations of democracy - checks and balances, transparency, honesty and accountability

We dont have any of this now. As bad as it was before we did have checks and balances, the fact the amnesty bill failed proves so.

Are you serious ?.

The disgraceful amnesty bill was rammed through in an act of treachery which triggered mass protests on the streets. Pheu-Thai were prepared to murder those protestors and take the country to civil war rather than let go of any power. And it would have happened if the Army did not step in.

If you think that was a successful democracy then you need to go back to school.

It is quite clear that 'democracy' will return under a new set of rules. It is also clear that the rules are being written to try and force these dishonest cronies who call themselves politicians to act in a semi-civilised manner.

[rubl]

A student was kicked out of TV Ch5 program after asking NRC head if seizing power by coup is a corruption (of power)

Not that I doubt you, but I would like to know more. Any link?

Am asking because I only found

2014-11-25

"The government will set up forums to allow students to express their views on reform after intelligence units learned that more anti-coup and anti-government protests are being planned, PM's Office Minister Suwaphan Tanyuvardhana said yesterday."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Students-to-get-forums-to-air-views-30248482.html

and

2014-12-22

"No anti-coup student activist participated in the junta’s national reform forum organized to collect students’ opinions on reform; they say that they do not want to be part of the apparatus of the military government. "

http://prachatai.org/english/node/4626

http://prachatai.org/journal/2015/01/57341

I assume that a man with so much knowledge & experience with Thailand will have no worries reading the link.

The chap was challenging the authority of the NCPO in a public broadcast. He even wrote about this on his facebook page, voicing surprise that he was asked to leave after asking about "stealing the rights from the people".

Now if he had asked such questions in a forum I would only call it disruptive. He doesn't really seem to want progress, only condemnation, provocation and obstruction.

BTW this being an English language forum, links to Thai only articles are not encouraged.

Edited January 10, 2015 by rubl

[waitforusalso]

A student was kicked out of TV Ch5 program after asking NRC head if seizing power by coup is a corruption (of power)

Not that I doubt you, but I would like to know more. Any link?

Am asking because I only found

2014-11-25

"The government will set up forums to allow students to express their views on reform after intelligence units learned that more anti-coup and anti-government protests are being planned, PM's Office Minister Suwaphan Tanyuvardhana said yesterday."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Students-to-get-forums-to-air-views-30248482.html

and

2014-12-22

"No anti-coup student activist participated in the junta’s national reform forum organized to collect students’ opinions on reform; they say that they do not want to be part of the apparatus of the military government. "

http://prachatai.org/english/node/4626

http://prachatai.org/journal/2015/01/57341

I assume that a man with so much knowledge & experience with Thailand will have no worries reading the link.

The chap was challenging the authority of the NCPO in a public broadcast. He even wrote about this on his facebook page, voicing surprise that he was asked to leave after asking about "stealing the rights from the people".

Now if he had asked such questions in a forum I would only call it disruptive. He doesn't really seem to want progress, only condemnation, provocation and obstruction.

BTW this being an English language forum, links to Thai only articles are not encouraged.

In fact he was asking a very valid and thoughtful question, a skill that is sadly lacking in Thai youth, and becoming even more exaggerated in this stifling, repressive environment. (part of the grand scheme)

PS You asked for the link.

[rubl]

Not that I doubt you, but I would like to know more. Any link?

Am asking because I only found

2014-11-25

"The government will set up forums to allow students to express their views on reform after intelligence units learned that more anti-coup and anti-government protests are being planned, PM's Office Minister Suwaphan Tanyuvardhana said yesterday."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Students-to-get-forums-to-air-views-30248482.html

and

2014-12-22

"No anti-coup student activist participated in the junta’s national reform forum organized to collect students’ opinions on reform; they say that they do not want to be part of the apparatus of the military government. "

http://prachatai.org/english/node/4626

http://prachatai.org/journal/2015/01/57341

I assume that a man with so much knowledge & experience with Thailand will have no worries reading the link.

The chap was challenging the authority of the NCPO in a public broadcast. He even wrote about this on his facebook page, voicing surprise that he was asked to leave after asking about "stealing the rights from the people".

Now if he had asked such questions in a forum I would only call it disruptive. He doesn't really seem to want progress, only condemnation, provocation and obstruction.

BTW this being an English language forum, links to Thai only articles are not encouraged.

In fact he was asking a very valid and thoughtful question, a skill that is sadly lacking in Thai youth, and becoming even more exaggerated in this stifling, repressive environment. (part of the grand scheme)

PS You asked for the link.

He talked about the NCPO having stolen the rights of the people. He would have known that he was not allowed to ask such a question in a public broadcast. Martial Law and such.

So, it would seem he deliberately provoked by asking a question which under circumstances would see him removed only to be able to complain about being removed. Furthermore he also complained about the restrictions put to him before by the TV5 program team.

I'm only surprised he didn't give a three finger salute. In a figurative manner though he did give a one or two finger salute.

BTW this case is similar to some poster being banned as he didn't heed the pinned topic at the begin. You still post though.

PS as for the link, my mistake. I assumed you would provide a link to an English article which is the norm here.

[Fatty123]

Military intervention becomes unnecessary if governments adhere to democracy

"The Nation" has either forgotten all of their Thai history or they are in full-bore, junta apologist mode.

I vote for apologist mode.

Here is where they try to shoot down the basic reality...

There is an argument that it doesn't matter how "honest" a government is because, if the military really wants to seize power, it will find a way. That argument is questionable at best. This is not a chicken-and-egg situation. The buck stops with the mainstream politicians.

which completely ignores the fact that over the last 83 years Thailand has had a civilian government for fewer than 35 of those years.

And then they end the paragraph with

If they are honest and rule with integrity, all else should fall into place.

which is nothing other than the "good people" argument / excuse against democratic self-governance. It's a fake argument.

Agree with most of that. Not sure of it being an 'apologist mode' though. I go for 'self preservation mode' myself. Thing is, I wouldn't be surprised if I heard that their readership was falling daily. Funnily enough, many don't want to pay to read a few pages of sychophantic cheer leading. Tourists unaware of this and other factors will buy just to have something to read with their breakfast. Probably just enough to keep them afloat, but with tourist numbers falling...

I've said it for years. Thailand does not have real journalists.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Fatty123

[waitforusalso]

He talked about the NCPO having stolen the rights of the people. He would have known that he was not allowed to ask such a question in a public broadcast. Martial Law and such.

So, it would seem he deliberately provoked by asking a question which under circumstances would see him removed only to be able to complain about being removed. Furthermore he also complained about the restrictions put to him before by the TV5 program team.

I'm only surprised he didn't give a three finger salute. In a figurative manner though he did give a one or two finger salute.

BTW this case is similar to some poster being banned as he didn't heed the pinned topic at the begin. You still post though.

PS as for the link, my mistake. I assumed you would provide a link to an English article which is the norm here.

The repression and brainwashing of the Thai youth (& general populace) may impress you and a few others on this forum, but they will only lead to more resentment once the muzzles are inevitably released.

[rubl]

He talked about the NCPO having stolen the rights of the people. He would have known that he was not allowed to ask such a question in a public broadcast. Martial Law and such.

So, it would seem he deliberately provoked by asking a question which under circumstances would see him removed only to be able to complain about being removed. Furthermore he also complained about the restrictions put to him before by the TV5 program team.

I'm only surprised he didn't give a three finger salute. In a figurative manner though he did give a one or two finger salute.

BTW this case is similar to some poster being banned as he didn't heed the pinned topic at the begin. You still post though.

PS as for the link, my mistake. I assumed you would provide a link to an English article which is the norm here.

The repression and brainwashing of the Thai youth (& general populace) may impress you and a few others on this forum, but they will only lead to more resentment once the muzzles are inevitably released.

A police State with Thaksin Shinawatra as leader doesn't seem too much fun either. Brainwashing through muzzling of the press (sue for billions), "bread and games" (keep them dumb) and stimulate own and families business (the state coffers are my coffers).

So, on purpose provocation leads to the result one desires following which one complains about the result.

Back to the topic, we have politicians sheltering behind uniforms, almost like PM Yingluck wanted the Army to do her dirty work the Police was unable to do.

[rubl]

Military intervention becomes unnecessary if governments adhere to democracy

"The Nation" has either forgotten all of their Thai history or they are in full-bore, junta apologist mode.

I vote for apologist mode.

Here is where they try to shoot down the basic reality...

There is an argument that it doesn't matter how "honest" a government is because, if the military really wants to seize power, it will find a way. That argument is questionable at best. This is not a chicken-and-egg situation. The buck stops with the mainstream politicians.

which completely ignores the fact that over the last 83 years Thailand has had a civilian government for fewer than 35 of those years.

And then they end the paragraph with

If they are honest and rule with integrity, all else should fall into place.

which is nothing other than the "good people" argument / excuse against democratic self-governance. It's a fake argument.

Agree with most of that. Not sure of it being an 'apologist mode' though. I go for 'self preservation mode' myself. Thing is, I wouldn't be surprised if I heard that their readership was falling daily. Funnily enough, many don't want to pay to read a few pages of sychophantic cheer leading. Tourists unaware of this and other factors will buy just to have something to read with their breakfast. Probably just enough to keep them afloat, but with tourist numbers falling...

I've said it for years. Thailand does not have real journalists.

Could be. Mind you if after reporting some minor crack you're sued for billions and the company is more-or-less ordered to sack you ... ...

Certainly now there are real restrictions, but looking at articles in local newspapers various complains are reported. Even about the chap who provoked the NCPO by stating they stole the rights of the people in a public broadcast.

[waitforusalso]

He talked about the NCPO having stolen the rights of the people. He would have known that he was not allowed to ask such a question in a public broadcast. Martial Law and such.

So, it would seem he deliberately provoked by asking a question which under circumstances would see him removed only to be able to complain about being removed. Furthermore he also complained about the restrictions put to him before by the TV5 program team.

I'm only surprised he didn't give a three finger salute. In a figurative manner though he did give a one or two finger salute.

BTW this case is similar to some poster being banned as he didn't heed the pinned topic at the begin. You still post though.

PS as for the link, my mistake. I assumed you would provide a link to an English article which is the norm here.

The repression and brainwashing of the Thai youth (& general populace) may impress you and a few others on this forum, but they will only lead to more resentment once the muzzles are inevitably released.

A police State with Thaksin Shinawatra as leader doesn't seem too much fun either. Brainwashing through muzzling of the press (sue for billions), "bread and games" (keep them dumb) and stimulate own and families business (the state coffers are my coffers).

So, on purpose provocation leads to the result one desires following which one complains about the result.

Back to the topic, we have politicians sheltering behind uniforms, almost like PM Yingluck wanted the Army to do her dirty work the Police was unable to do.

"A police State with Thaksin Shinawatra as leader "

Now back to reality;

1. Extended period of martial law

2. Banning of all political activities

3. Banning of gatherings of over 5 people

4. Closing down copious media outlets

5. Rewriting the national education curriculum

6. Rewriting the constitution to favour oneself & allies

7. Arresting & detaining political rivals

8. Attitude Adjustment centres

9. Repressing educational debates & forums.......

[rubl]

"A police State with Thaksin Shinawatra as leader "

Now back to reality;

1. Extended period of martial law

2. Banning of all political activities

3. Banning of gatherings of over 5 people

4. Closing down copious media outlets

5. Rewriting the national education curriculum

6. Rewriting the constitution to favour oneself & allies

7. Arresting & detaining political rivals

8. Attitude Adjustment centres

9. Repressing educational debates & forums.......

Reality, you mean as in "when politicians shelter behind uniforms'?

Anyway you seem on a mission to do some rewriting yourself. You're getting just as provoking as that chap who asked and got what he asked and started complaining.

Have fun.

[surangw]

I notice most have airborne wings on their chests, my bet is most never even seen the inside of a jump plane

[chooka]

The political situation in Thailand will never change while the military retains so much power and influential backing.

As soon as an opposition appears that may be gaining traction then they resort to a coup to oust them.

Change will only occur after the power of the military is removed and they act as protection for the people and the country, not the oppressors.

It's not as if there are any military threats to Thailand that they would be able to deal with effectively, too top heavy.

True, true. The Military back into their barracks and with Thaksin controlling the Police Force (he OK-ed the yearly reshuffle last year) we move from Military junta to a simple 'Police State'. Big improvement

Do try and get past Thaksin, coups have been a regular occurrence long before him & his.

true they were happening before thaksin was born but they are all still his fault

[rubl]

The political situation in Thailand will never change while the military retains so much power and influential backing.

As soon as an opposition appears that may be gaining traction then they resort to a coup to oust them.

Change will only occur after the power of the military is removed and they act as protection for the people and the country, not the oppressors.

It's not as if there are any military threats to Thailand that they would be able to deal with effectively, too top heavy.

True, true. The Military back into their barracks and with Thaksin controlling the Police Force (he OK-ed the yearly reshuffle last year) we move from Military junta to a simple 'Police State'. Big improvement

Do try and get past Thaksin, coups have been a regular occurrence long before him & his.

true they were happening before thaksin was born but they are all still his fault

I'm trying to get past Thaksin and succeed just as much as the red-shirts

[bangon04]

We do have to remember that the military here is not under civilian control as is the norm in other democratic governments.

and it is not allowed to strongly criticise the military because that can be easily and deliberately construed as attacking the Head of the Military/Head of State.

[Baerboxer]

the very foundations of democracy - checks and balances, transparency, honesty and accountability

We dont have any of this now. As bad as it was before we did have checks and balances, the fact the amnesty bill failed proves so.

Absolutely, checks and balances that's why begin of last year we had the yearly Police Officer reshuffles approved by Thaksin. He checked and balanced.

The 'blanket amnesty bill' was pushed through parliament and if the anti-government protesters had listened to Ms. Yingluck to go home and wait the Senate might have OKed the bill as no one seemed to be against. As it was the bill was rejected by the Senate and dormant only.

there you go again...

there were plenty of people against the amnesty bill in it's final form. Including red shirts.

and not even the PDRC was protesting against the amnesty bill once it was killed.

There you go again....... repeating Yingluck's lie that the contentious version of the amnesty bill was killed. It wasn't. All the other versions, that didn't whitewash her criminal brother were killed off. But not that version. All PTP had to do was make sure they were still in power when it was returned to the house and they could vote it into law without having to go back again to the Senate.

[binjalin]

Is no one else shocked by the photo of the general with the puppet?

[tbthailand]

denying the events as they occurred doesn't make them go away Rubl.

I understand that you have no intention of recognizing what really happened to the amnesty bill.

The previous poster directly quoted and replied to the text from the article. That hardly seems off topic.

The previous poster refer to the 'failing of the amnesty bill' as example that checks and balances worked.

The 'blanket amnesty bill' would not be rejected by the Senate and sent back to parliament if the anti-government protesters had listened to Ms. Yingluck. Now the 'blanket amnesty bill' wasn't passed, but laid dormant in parliament.

Furthermore tully is implicitly suggesting that the anti-government protests were an example of how well 'checks and balances' worked in Thailand. That seems somewhat strange.

The 'blanket amnesty bill' would not be rejected by the Senate and sent back to parliament if ...

you have no idea if that would have happened. Given the half-appointed nature of the Senate with a conservative, yellow majority, and given the fact that the UDD also opposed the bill, it is probably more likely that the bill would have been killed in the Senate even without a protest.

And his example shows how things can function in an open society where people can speak their mind. Quite different from today.

Complete rubbish.

First the so-called 'yellow majority' was not a majority. There was group of mostly appointed senators who were in a minority and did oppose the Shin mob in power.

SEcond, the fact that the UDD pretended to oppose the amnesty bill (see the difference between abstaining and opposing) was irrelevant.

Third, according to PTP spokesmen at the time, they did have a majority in the senate to pass the amnesty bill.

Fourth, Rubl is quite correct in questioning how a, admittedly large scale, protest is supposed to be a 'check and balance'.

Fifth, until there is real democracy here in Thailand, the military option will always be there. Thaksin knew this very well as he tried to gain control by shoe horning his cousin into the top position. It didn't work so he was left with virtually total control over the RTP, another failure of checks and balances here.

first, not complete 'rubbish'. You also don't know what would have happened. I point out - correctly - that with half of the Senate appointed, there was a yellow majority. Whether a PTP person thought the bill would get through or not is irrelevant. It might have, or it might not have. We won't ever know because the PM asked the senate to kill the bill and they did so rather convincingly.

second, there were many UDD who opposed the bill and made their positions clear. You are talking about voting MPs where as I am talking about the UDD members.

The original poster said simply that killing the amnesty was an example of how the system works. Rubl is the one who equated that with the protests. But none the less, in an open and democratic society, it is part of participating to voice your views be it as an individual or a group. So as Rubl is an unabashed junta cheerleader, it is probably natural that he would question this point.

[tbthailand]

We dont have any of this now. As bad as it was before we did have checks and balances, the fact the amnesty bill failed proves so.

Absolutely, checks and balances that's why begin of last year we had the yearly Police Officer reshuffles approved by Thaksin. He checked and balanced.

The 'blanket amnesty bill' was pushed through parliament and if the anti-government protesters had listened to Ms. Yingluck to go home and wait the Senate might have OKed the bill as no one seemed to be against. As it was the bill was rejected by the Senate and dormant only.

there you go again...

there were plenty of people against the amnesty bill in it's final form. Including red shirts.

and not even the PDRC was protesting against the amnesty bill once it was killed.

There you go again....... repeating Yingluck's lie that the contentious version of the amnesty bill was killed. It wasn't. All the other versions, that didn't whitewash her criminal brother were killed off. But not that version. All PTP had to do was make sure they were still in power when it was returned to the house and they could vote it into law without having to go back again to the Senate.

it was dead.

really, it was dead.

you and rubl are in dreamland.

even suthep knew it was dead.

no one was talking about the bill after december. it was dead.

have you figured that out yet?

of course not....

[chainarong]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Unfortunately, past governments have never had the courage to remove much of the power from the military over the decades...

It's become the norm in Thailand to accept what the military do..........

It is not the military becoming the norm it has never been out of power, it has been the controlling power of Thailand for Eons , nothing will change that, it is too entrenched in Thai life and look around, so is Burma , Cambodia , Vietnam , Lao and China, what hope has a comment in TV got.

[waitforusalso]

"A police State with Thaksin Shinawatra as leader "

Now back to reality;

1. Extended period of martial law

2. Banning of all political activities

3. Banning of gatherings of over 5 people

4. Closing down copious media outlets

5. Rewriting the national education curriculum

6. Rewriting the constitution to favour oneself & allies

7. Arresting & detaining political rivals

8. Attitude Adjustment centres

9. Repressing educational debates & forums.......

Reality, you mean as in "when politicians shelter behind uniforms'?

Anyway you seem on a mission to do some rewriting yourself. You're getting just as provoking as that chap who asked and got what he asked and started complaining.

Have fun.

She was an 11th grade female student.

[Thai at Heart]

Utterly wrong premise from the nation.

There is no need for an intervention if the legal system punishes all comers equally

[selftaopath]

The political situation in Thailand will never change while the military retains so much power and influential backing.

As soon as an opposition appears that may be gaining traction then they resort to a coup to oust them.

Change will only occur after the power of the military is removed and they act as protection for the people and the country, not the oppressors.

It's not as if there are any military threats to Thailand that they would be able to deal with effectively, too top heavy.

Agree. IMO Thailand/Lieland will never reach its potential; continue its decline bringing the quality of life lower to the ones who have no power and little education. Most resources will continue benefiting the 1 % whose only desire is to squeeze its life blood for personal gain.

[Valentine]

Absolutely, checks and balances that's why begin of last year we had the yearly Police Officer reshuffles approved by Thaksin. He checked and balanced.

The 'blanket amnesty bill' was pushed through parliament and if the anti-government protesters had listened to Ms. Yingluck to go home and wait the Senate might have OKed the bill as no one seemed to be against. As it was the bill was rejected by the Senate and dormant only.

there you go again...

there were plenty of people against the amnesty bill in it's final form. Including red shirts.

and not even the PDRC was protesting against the amnesty bill once it was killed.

There you go again....... repeating Yingluck's lie that the contentious version of the amnesty bill was killed. It wasn't. All the other versions, that didn't whitewash her criminal brother were killed off. But not that version. All PTP had to do was make sure they were still in power when it was returned to the house and they could vote it into law without having to go back again to the Senate.

it was dead.

really, it was dead.

you and rubl are in dreamland.

even suthep knew it was dead.

no one was talking about the bill after december. it was dead.

have you figured that out yet?

of course not....

You do not seem to have it figured out at all. It could be no one was talking about the bill but what Baerboxer said is absolutely correct. It was stated many times in the news that it was in PTP's power to bring up th ebill again, I believe the timeframe is 180 days.