Popular Post Trouble Posted January 13, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted January 13, 2015 <script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script> I would have liked to see the USA stopping the aid to Israel and then I would have enjoyed the reaction of Mr Netanyahu. But this will never happen.........they are their obedient servants after all......... You're wrong. Israel and the USA are close allies indeed, that is true. It is not a servant and master relationship. That's actually offensive antisemitic rhetoric to suggest that Israel (code for Jews) controls the USA ... it goes back to classic fascist and Islamo-fascist hate speech wildly and falsely exaggerating Jewish global control. Also keep in mind that while Jews are only 2 percent of the U.S. population, polling will show that a substantial majority of the American people do support the close relationship between the U.S. and Israel. Of course, details about the relationship are always open to debate as well they should be. Boom there it is...........You cant say sh!t about what you think of Israel's policies without this old canard antisemitic BS being trotted out Take your code for Jews & the special decoder ring we obviously do not have & re-think this constant cry for sympathy. Israel deserves some complaints about their actions same as anyone else. Close allies? I think not & so do many Americans also think not. We could list the reasons but I am sure you know them all & have labeled them appropriately to somehow be code for....well you know This American thinks we have been played far too long by Israel. Billions and billions of taxpayer dollars and what have we got? The continued building of settlements is an affront to the Palestinians and the rest of the world. Had Israel stopped this practice years ago there would have been a settlement by now. It has been nothing but a land grab and the whole world knows it. It is one thing to fight a battle and win and hold the territory for security reasons but another to annex it and build on it for their own use. The rest of the world sees it for what it is and only the diehard defenders of Israel have blinders on. The constant defense of Israel by some politicians in the US so much of the time, is out of fear of being called antisemitic. I would like the US to take a more neutral position. Israel has every right to defend itself as necessary but their intransigent stance has worn out over the last 40 years. It is time they gave a little something and tried to get along with their neighbors and settled the matter once and for all. Building settlements does not help the process and everyone knows it. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 American Jews have a wide range of views on the settlements issue. It is perfectly legitimate to question specific policies of the Israeli government just as to any government, including the Palestinian governments. I'm sure there is a similar range among Israelis though the percentages of course would be different. If you're an American and you want American policy to change regarding Israel and Palestine, get involved in the political process and try to change it. There are plenty of American Jews who have issues about U.S. policy in the region as well. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/10/01/chapter-5-connection-with-and-attitudes-towards-israel/ Many Say Settlements Hurt Israel’s SecurityA 44% plurality of American Jews say the continued building of Jewish settlements in the West Bank hurts the security of Israel, while 17% say it helps and 29% say it does not make a difference. By way of rough comparison, a 2013 Pew Research Center survey in Israel found that Israeli Jews have more mixed views: 35% say the continued building of Jewish settlements hurts the security of Israel, 31% say it helps, and 27% say it does not make a difference.26 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anon022 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 So they stopped giving them other people's money i.e. the US taxpayers'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonmarleesco Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 '... Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu froze the monthly transfer of $120 million in taxes that Israel collects for the Palestinians ...' Somewhat akin to throwing his toys out of the cot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Better than nothing & for many years nothing is all there is to show for it. YES...BOTH sides are to blame As such a 3rd party court should step in ...should have long ago Otherwise it is just rinse & repeat ad nauseam Court rules it & if either side doesn't like it let the walls they built become their prison Sanction the crap out of any side that will not comply...Nothing goes in...Nothing goes out except humanitarian aid when needed No Military aid, no financial aid, no foreign trades & no foreign banking....nada Well, both sides need to accept the third party as objective, unbiased and just. Both need to agree to fully accept its ruling. I think it is fairly obvious that reaching a middle ground on this issue could be problematic. And yes, the Palestinians do see the USA as non of the above, but that does not necessarily make the ICC (or another UN body) a proper candidate. If fairness impartiality is required, then it ought to apply both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 ...considering the genocide that the Palestinians have been subjected to all these years....ironically..... ...at the hands of a nuclear power..... ..while the world sits idly by...... May want to check population figures before posting nonsense. One of the main Palestinian claims is that they will eventually win by sheer force of demographics. The "nuclear power" bit is cute, does it have any relevance to your claim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h90 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I would have liked to see the USA stopping the aid to Israel and then I would have enjoyed the reaction of Mr Netanyahu. But this will never happen.........they are their obedient servants after all......... You're wrong. Israel and the USA are close allies indeed, that is true. It is not a servant and master relationship. That's actually offensive antisemitic rhetoric to suggest that Israel (code for Jews) controls the USA ... it goes back to classic fascist and Islamo-fascist hate speech wildly and falsely exaggerating Jewish global control. I know this kind of anti-Israel rhetoric is very popular and trendy in Europe these days ... that doesn't make it true or fair. Also keep in mind that while Jews are only 2 percent of the U.S. population, polling will show that a substantial majority of the American people do support the close relationship between the U.S. and Israel. Of course, details about the relationship are always open to debate as well they should be. It would be fair to say that Israel has a powerful lobbying effort in Washington as do other issues, both foreign and domestic. But that's not what you said, is it? Yes whenever there is a critic on Israel we tell it is antisemitic......That is very cheap and actually everytime and everyone antisemitic makes it easier for the real antisemitics..... But yes I can't see a servant and master relationship. They are more like brothers in crime..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I would have liked to see the USA stopping the aid to Israel and then I would have enjoyed the reaction of Mr Netanyahu. But this will never happen.........they are their obedient servants after all......... You're wrong. Israel and the USA are close allies indeed, that is true. It is not a servant and master relationship. That's actually offensive antisemitic rhetoric to suggest that Israel (code for Jews) controls the USA ... it goes back to classic fascist and Islamo-fascist hate speech wildly and falsely exaggerating Jewish global control. I know this kind of anti-Israel rhetoric is very popular and trendy in Europe these days ... that doesn't make it true or fair. Also keep in mind that while Jews are only 2 percent of the U.S. population, polling will show that a substantial majority of the American people do support the close relationship between the U.S. and Israel. Of course, details about the relationship are always open to debate as well they should be. It would be fair to say that Israel has a powerful lobbying effort in Washington as do other issues, both foreign and domestic. But that's not what you said, is it? Yes whenever there is a critic on Israel we tell it is antisemitic......That is very cheap and actually everytime and everyone antisemitic makes it easier for the real antisemitics..... But yes I can't see a servant and master relationship. They are more like brothers in crime..... You're wrong. Nobody here has ever said that any and all criticism of Israeli government policy is antisemitic. As far as "real" antisemites posting on this forum, dude, there have been so many that have come out that way in a clear and blatant way that it would be exhausting even to COUNT them! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lissos Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 ...considering the genocide that the Palestinians have been subjected to all these years....ironically..... ...at the hands of a nuclear power..... ..while the world sits idly by...... Numbers of Arabs calling themselves Palestinians is currently the highest it has ever been, regionally and around the world. No genocide is taking place. Other terms can be used to describe the particular situation they are in, but is it not genocide. Mega numbers of them are living in surrounding Arab states, in which I should add, they are intentionally by legislation denied citizenshi (Jordan aside) p, excluded from many rights that nationals have, access to services and opportunities. Do the Kurds, a people scattered internationally and in middle east states, the borders of which most were created by the British and French, come in for the same amount of sympathy and campaigns from onlookers around the world when some Kurdish nationalists claim via their mythology that those middle eastern states and even people living in them today are occupying stolen Kurdish land? I should imagine that on the whole onlookers accept that the current make up of most of the middle east is the result of the closure of a massive war (WWI) in which the British and French were victors and carved up a former Empire. Most seem to accept that about the shape and political roots of the Arab states, so why don't they accept that about Israel? Arab states were created without any regard for tribal or ethnic expanses, often leaving former communities living in two different countries at the end of it all. Nobody seems so fervant to 'undo' that rather slap dash state of affairs (apart from ISIS) do they. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bendejo Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Abbas is a joke. He has no respect from his people. Yeah, he won the election but he has no leadership. If so, he would have stopped the rockets being fired, and the invasion last year wouldn't have happened (maybe). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 This American thinks we have been played far too long by Israel. Billions and billions of taxpayer dollars and what have we got? The continued building of settlements is an affront to the Palestinians and the rest of the world. Had Israel stopped this practice years ago there would have been a settlement by now. It has been nothing but a land grab and the whole world knows it. It is one thing to fight a battle and win and hold the territory for security reasons but another to annex it and build on it for their own use. The rest of the world sees it for what it is and only the diehard defenders of Israel have blinders on. The constant defense of Israel by some politicians in the US so much of the time, is out of fear of being called antisemitic. I would like the US to take a more neutral position. Israel has every right to defend itself as necessary but their intransigent stance has worn out over the last 40 years. It is time they gave a little something and tried to get along with their neighbors and settled the matter once and for all. Building settlements does not help the process and everyone knows it. There were no illegal settlements prior to 1967. The Palestinian had about 20 years to accept things and get along with the program. But ok, they never signed into it in the first place, rejecting the partition plan. The point is not to start another tedious pseudo-historical discussion, but to point out that claiming illegal settlements are the only issue standing in the way of peace between Israel and the Palestinians is a misguided notion. It is certainly one of the most germane issues, to be sure, but not the only one nor the cause of the current sorry state of things. Most of them "billions and billions of taxpayer dollars" are actually spent in the USA, buying arms from USA firms. It could be argued that this practice is immoral, against USA interests and a few other things. Less a case of taxpayer dollars going to waste, more to do, perhaps, with unbalanced USA support for Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 '... Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu froze the monthly transfer of $120 million in taxes that Israel collects for the Palestinians ...' Somewhat akin to throwing his toys out of the cot. Indeed. Election campaign brings out the best in politicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norvid Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The subject is an occupying state of Israel and a victim the Palestine. Racist country versus Palestinian population. Palestinian land versus illegal taken over by Jews. These are facts and the rest is semantics of lies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The Palestinian Arabs started the violence in the first place, started the conflict and are easily as racist as Israel. Wake up. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mania Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) Better than nothing & for many years nothing is all there is to show for it. YES...BOTH sides are to blame As such a 3rd party court should step in ...should have long ago Otherwise it is just rinse & repeat ad nauseam Court rules it & if either side doesn't like it let the walls they built become their prison Sanction the crap out of any side that will not comply...Nothing goes in...Nothing goes out except humanitarian aid when needed No Military aid, no financial aid, no foreign trades & no foreign banking....nada Well, both sides need to accept the third party as objective, unbiased and just. Both need to agree to fully accept its ruling. I think it is fairly obvious that reaching a middle ground on this issue could be problematic. And yes, the Palestinians do see the USA as non of the above, but that does not necessarily make the ICC (or another UN body) a proper candidate. If fairness impartiality is required, then it ought to apply both ways. Not according to my post.......... This is not some kind of border determination this is a "International Criminal Court" We have seen the movie "both sides need to accept the third party as objective" so many times we know all the lines by heart It does not work & is little more than an endless cycle of stalling Let the countries that accept/recognize this court accept a ruling As my post suggested those countries can refuse to allow any that do not accept the ruling passage, military/financial aid, trade,banking etc. While this is not the place to hammer out the final decision about borders etc it may get that ball started rolling the same way they use sanctions against so many with far less crimes/problems to start a negotiation process If the US wants to ignore it let them & lets see what the citizens of the US think at that point when it is even more than the constant blatant vetos of years gone by. Fairness/Impartiality is required to reach middle ground/peace & yes it should go both ways.... but has it after all these decades? None would agree it has been impartial this far & the US + their constant vetos is a big reason why. As it now stands there will NEVER be an acceptable 3rd party in Israels mind because their actions are beyond blatant. A blind man can see that The recent acceptance of Palestine even if only symbolically by other countries means others are willing to look & decide for themselves thru a vehicle like this court. This court can look at crimes committed by both sides & Abba knows this going in...but at least they are going. Those countries that accept this court can accept & enforce its ruling thru the sanctions I mentioned. Is it a fix all? Of course not....Is it something? Yes.... & we know if left to their own devices it will never be anything or I should say nothing will ever be allowed...so time has long been up IMO as my 1st line said "Better than nothing & for many years nothing is all there is to show for it." Edited January 14, 2015 by mania 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choctastic Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The ICC is a dead end. No leaders of the Imperial powers, responsible for millions of deaths and decades of war crimes, will ever be tried in it. This and most other institutions are tools at the service of the Empire. Reserved for third world 'despots' who stop doing their masters bidding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The ICC is a dead end. Yep and yet another misstep by the Palestinians. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
englishoak Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I would have liked to see the USA stopping the aid to Israel and then I would have enjoyed the reaction of Mr Netanyahu. But this will never happen.........they are their obedient servants after all......... You're wrong. Israel and the USA are close allies indeed, that is true. It is not a servant and master relationship. That's actually offensive antisemitic rhetoric to suggest that Israel (code for Jews) controls the USA ... it goes back to classic fascist and Islamo-fascist hate speech wildly and falsely exaggerating Jewish global control. I know this kind of anti-Israel rhetoric is very popular and trendy in Europe these days ... that doesn't make it true or fair. Also keep in mind that while Jews are only 2 percent of the U.S. population, polling will show that a substantial majority of the American people do support the close relationship between the U.S. and Israel. Of course, details about the relationship are always open to debate as well they should be. It would be fair to say that Israel has a powerful lobbying effort in Washington as do other issues, both foreign and domestic. But that's not what you said, is it? Umm seeing as you brought it up, the 2% owns how much of the wealth ? because money as we all know in the US is power. 50% of Forbes rich Americans are .... Jewish and thats as much as you need to know about the "strong relationship" and what drives it. No it sure dosnt run the US but it does have a very powerful hand lobbying what it wants, what it cant get it sometimes just trys to plain old steal from its main ally. As Paul Pillar, the CIA’s former national intelligence officer for the Near East and South Asia, told Newsweek, old habits are hard to break: Zionists were dispatching spies to America before there even was an Israel, to gather money and materials for the cause and later the fledgling state. Key components for Israel’s nuclear bombs were clandestinely obtained here. “They’ve found creative and inventive ways,” Pillar said, to get what they want. “If we give them free rein to send people over here, how are we going to stop that?” the former congressional aide asked. “They’re incredibly aggressive. They’re aggressive in all aspects of their relationship with the United States. Why would their intelligence relationship with us be any different?” http://www.newsweek.com/israel-wont-stop-spying-us-249757 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexterm Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The Palestinian Arabs started the violence in the first place, started the conflict and are easily as racist as Israel. Wake up. Here's your heads up I promised you Morch. UG is always the first to try to drag the OP back to his pseudo history myths. I will decline this time to fall into his off topic trap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) Look at the post that I responded to. Those were the "myths" - which I corrected - and I did not bring it up. Edited January 14, 2015 by Ulysses G. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ulysses G. Posted January 14, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) Theyre incredibly aggressive. Theyre aggressive in all aspects of their relationship with the United States. Why would their intelligence relationship with us be any different? This may come as a big surprise, but pretty much every country of earth spies on each other, including the United States, who was caught spying on our German allies, amongst others. Why would Israel be any different? Edited January 14, 2015 by Ulysses G. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JingerBen Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I would have liked to see the USA stopping the aid to Israel and then I would have enjoyed the reaction of Mr Netanyahu. But this will never happen.........they are their obedient servants after all......... You're wrong. Israel and the USA are close allies indeed, that is true. It is not a servant and master relationship. That's actually offensive antisemitic rhetoric to suggest that Israel (code for Jews) controls the USA ... it goes back to classic fascist and Islamo-fascist hate speech wildly and falsely exaggerating Jewish global control. I know this kind of anti-Israel rhetoric is very popular and trendy in Europe these days ... that doesn't make it true or fair. Also keep in mind that while Jews are only 2 percent of the U.S. population, polling will show that a substantial majority of the American people do support the close relationship between the U.S. and Israel. Of course, details about the relationship are always open to debate as well they should be. It would be fair to say that Israel has a powerful lobbying effort in Washington as do other issues, both foreign and domestic. But that's not what you said, is it? Umm seeing as you brought it up, the 2% owns how much of the wealth ? because money as we all know in the US is power. 50% of Forbes rich Americans are .... Jewish and thats as much as you need to know about the "strong relationship" and what drives it. No it sure dosnt run the US but it does have a very powerful hand lobbying what it wants, what it cant get it sometimes just trys to plain old steal from its main ally. As Paul Pillar, the CIA’s former national intelligence officer for the Near East and South Asia, told Newsweek, old habits are hard to break: Zionists were dispatching spies to America before there even was an Israel, to gather money and materials for the cause and later the fledgling state. Key components for Israel’s nuclear bombs were clandestinely obtained here. “They’ve found creative and inventive ways,” Pillar said, to get what they want. “If we give them free rein to send people over here, how are we going to stop that?” the former congressional aide asked. “They’re incredibly aggressive. They’re aggressive in all aspects of their relationship with the United States. Why would their intelligence relationship with us be any different?” http://www.newsweek.com/israel-wont-stop-spying-us-249757 You make some excellent points about the internal situation, but no mention of the influence of the Zionist lobby on US politics and foreign policy vis-a-vis Palestine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
car720 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Mamon. The root of all evil. Myself I worship the birds and the bees and a good woman's thighs. Who out there can tell me who worships mamon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Better than nothing & for many years nothing is all there is to show for it. YES...BOTH sides are to blame As such a 3rd party court should step in ...should have long ago Otherwise it is just rinse & repeat ad nauseam Court rules it & if either side doesn't like it let the walls they built become their prison Sanction the crap out of any side that will not comply...Nothing goes in...Nothing goes out except humanitarian aid when needed No Military aid, no financial aid, no foreign trades & no foreign banking....nada Well, both sides need to accept the third party as objective, unbiased and just. Both need to agree to fully accept its ruling. I think it is fairly obvious that reaching a middle ground on this issue could be problematic. And yes, the Palestinians do see the USA as non of the above, but that does not necessarily make the ICC (or another UN body) a proper candidate. If fairness impartiality is required, then it ought to apply both ways. Not according to my post.......... This is not some kind of border determination this is a "International Criminal Court" We have seen the movie "both sides need to accept the third party as objective" so many times we know all the lines by heart It does not work & is little more than an endless cycle of stalling Let the countries that accept/recognize this court accept a ruling As my post suggested those countries can refuse to allow any that do not accept the ruling passage, military/financial aid, trade,banking etc. While this is not the place to hammer out the final decision about borders etc it may get that ball started rolling the same way they use sanctions against so many with far less crimes/problems to start a negotiation process If the US wants to ignore it let them & lets see what the citizens of the US think at that point when it is even more than the constant blatant vetos of years gone by. Fairness/Impartiality is required to reach middle ground/peace & yes it should go both ways.... but has it after all these decades? None would agree it has been impartial this far & the US + their constant vetos is a big reason why. As it now stands there will NEVER be an acceptable 3rd party in Israels mind because their actions are beyond blatant. A blind man can see that The recent acceptance of Palestine even if only symbolically by other countries means others are willing to look & decide for themselves thru a vehicle like this court. This court can look at crimes committed by both sides & Abba knows this going in...but at least they are going. Those countries that accept this court can accept & enforce its ruling thru the sanctions I mentioned. Is it a fix all? Of course not....Is it something? Yes.... & we know if left to their own devices it will never be anything or I should say nothing will ever be allowed...so time has long been up IMO as my 1st line said "Better than nothing & for many years nothing is all there is to show for it." I am bringing in the impartiality bit as some seem to hold that the ICC rulings are universally accepted, or that its ruling denote absolute truth. That somehow, by virtue of a hypothetical future ruling against Israel will invalidate all of the Palestinian claims. This is not so. As you pointed out, it is a court, and it rules on specific criminal cases rather than arbitrates broad issues such as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This is why the move is considered nonconstructive, by some, as far as peace is concerned. Such a hypothetical ruling against Israel will not, by itself, change realities for the Palestinians, nor is it very likely to play a decisive factor in Israel's policy. Rather, it is simply another instance of the tit-for-tat thing, the difference being that this time the Palestinians seem to be more on top of things than usual. The move, if considered without its domestic significance, is more about applying further pressure on Israel, of scoring points in the game. That the USA, who was the central mediator involved in negotiations is not impartial, is true enough. I beg to differ on the issue of the USA exercising its veto right, though, which usually takes place within a defined context - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negroponte_doctrine. Granted that recent Israeli governments have made sustaining this USA policy harder to defend or explain. Then again, most people do not actually read the proposed UNSC resolutions, but make up their minds according to headlines. How does moving things from one impartial arena to another make things better or fair? How will a hypothetical ICC ruling against Israel fix...anything? What actual good will it do the Palestinians, other than some satisfaction of getting back at Israel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
car720 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I would have liked to see the USA stopping the aid to Israel and then I would have enjoyed the reaction of Mr Netanyahu. But this will never happen.........they are their obedient servants after all......... You're wrong. Israel and the USA are close allies indeed, that is true. It is not a servant and master relationship. That's actually offensive antisemitic rhetoric to suggest that Israel (code for Jews) controls the USA ... it goes back to classic fascist and Islamo-fascist hate speech wildly and falsely exaggerating Jewish global control. I know this kind of anti-Israel rhetoric is very popular and trendy in Europe these days ... that doesn't make it true or fair. Also keep in mind that while Jews are only 2 percent of the U.S. population, polling will show that a substantial majority of the American people do support the close relationship between the U.S. and Israel. Of course, details about the relationship are always open to debate as well they should be. It would be fair to say that Israel has a powerful lobbying effort in Washington as do other issues, both foreign and domestic. But that's not what you said, is it? Umm seeing as you brought it up, the 2% owns how much of the wealth ? because money as we all know in the US is power. 50% of Forbes rich Americans are .... Jewish and thats as much as you need to know about the "strong relationship" and what drives it. No it sure dosnt run the US but it does have a very powerful hand lobbying what it wants, what it cant get it sometimes just trys to plain old steal from its main ally. As Paul Pillar, the CIA’s former national intelligence officer for the Near East and South Asia, told Newsweek, old habits are hard to break: Zionists were dispatching spies to America before there even was an Israel, to gather money and materials for the cause and later the fledgling state. Key components for Israel’s nuclear bombs were clandestinely obtained here. “They’ve found creative and inventive ways,” Pillar said, to get what they want. “If we give them free rein to send people over here, how are we going to stop that?” the former congressional aide asked. “They’re incredibly aggressive. They’re aggressive in all aspects of their relationship with the United States. Why would their intelligence relationship with us be any different?” http://www.newsweek.com/israel-wont-stop-spying-us-249757 You make some excellent points about the internal situation, but no mention of the influence of the Zionist lobby on US politics and foreign policy vis-a-vis Palestine. If the yanks cannot control them then what the hell chance have the Palestinians? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Morch Posted January 14, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted January 14, 2015 The subject is an occupying state of Israel and a victim the Palestine. Racist country versus Palestinian population. Palestinian land versus illegal taken over by Jews. These are facts and the rest is semantics of lies. The conflict predates the Israeli occupation and the Israeli illegal settlements. Claiming that Israel is "racist", while implying that the Palestinian are somehow a neutral or pluralistic open society is rich. But you were talking about semantics of lies? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexterm Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) Better than nothing & for many years nothing is all there is to show for it. YES...BOTH sides are to blame As such a 3rd party court should step in ...should have long ago Otherwise it is just rinse & repeat ad nauseam Court rules it & if either side doesn't like it let the walls they built become their prison Sanction the crap out of any side that will not comply...Nothing goes in...Nothing goes out except humanitarian aid when needed No Military aid, no financial aid, no foreign trades & no foreign banking....nada Well, both sides need to accept the third party as objective, unbiased and just. Both need to agree to fully accept its ruling. I think it is fairly obvious that reaching a middle ground on this issue could be problematic. And yes, the Palestinians do see the USA as non of the above, but that does not necessarily make the ICC (or another UN body) a proper candidate. If fairness impartiality is required, then it ought to apply both ways. Not according to my post.......... This is not some kind of border determination this is a "International Criminal Court" We have seen the movie "both sides need to accept the third party as objective" so many times we know all the lines by heart It does not work & is little more than an endless cycle of stalling Let the countries that accept/recognize this court accept a ruling As my post suggested those countries can refuse to allow any that do not accept the ruling passage, military/financial aid, trade,banking etc. While this is not the place to hammer out the final decision about borders etc it may get that ball started rolling the same way they use sanctions against so many with far less crimes/problems to start a negotiation process If the US wants to ignore it let them & lets see what the citizens of the US think at that point when it is even more than the constant blatant vetos of years gone by. Fairness/Impartiality is required to reach middle ground/peace & yes it should go both ways.... but has it after all these decades? None would agree it has been impartial this far & the US + their constant vetos is a big reason why. As it now stands there will NEVER be an acceptable 3rd party in Israels mind because their actions are beyond blatant. A blind man can see that The recent acceptance of Palestine even if only symbolically by other countries means others are willing to look & decide for themselves thru a vehicle like this court. This court can look at crimes committed by both sides & Abba knows this going in...but at least they are going. Those countries that accept this court can accept & enforce its ruling thru the sanctions I mentioned. Is it a fix all? Of course not....Is it something? Yes.... & we know if left to their own devices it will never be anything or I should say nothing will ever be allowed...so time has long been up IMO as my 1st line said "Better than nothing & for many years nothing is all there is to show for it." How will a hypothetical ICC ruling against Israel fix...anything? What actual good will it do the Palestinians, other than some satisfaction of getting back at Israel? It may be the grounds for economic sanctions against Israel. How could Israel's largest trading partner the EU continue support for a country that is harboring convicted war criminals? And if any hypothetical convictions in the ICC are of no real consequence, as you claim, how come Netanyahu’s government and the Israeli apologists on this forum are panicking at the prospect of the Palestinians following a peaceful, diplomatic course rather than violence? Edited January 14, 2015 by dexterm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) Well, both sides need to accept the third party as objective, unbiased and just.Both need to agree to fully accept its ruling. I think it is fairly obvious that reaching a middle ground on this issue could be problematic. And yes, the Palestinians do see the USA as non of the above, but that does not necessarily make the ICC (or another UN body) a proper candidate. If fairness impartiality is required, then it ought to apply both ways. Not according to my post.......... This is not some kind of border determination this is a "International Criminal Court" We have seen the movie "both sides need to accept the third party as objective" so many times we know all the lines by heart It does not work & is little more than an endless cycle of stalling Let the countries that accept/recognize this court accept a ruling As my post suggested those countries can refuse to allow any that do not accept the ruling passage, military/financial aid, trade,banking etc. While this is not the place to hammer out the final decision about borders etc it may get that ball started rolling the same way they use sanctions against so many with far less crimes/problems to start a negotiation process If the US wants to ignore it let them & lets see what the citizens of the US think at that point when it is even more than the constant blatant vetos of years gone by. Fairness/Impartiality is required to reach middle ground/peace & yes it should go both ways.... but has it after all these decades? None would agree it has been impartial this far & the US + their constant vetos is a big reason why. As it now stands there will NEVER be an acceptable 3rd party in Israels mind because their actions are beyond blatant. A blind man can see that The recent acceptance of Palestine even if only symbolically by other countries means others are willing to look & decide for themselves thru a vehicle like this court. This court can look at crimes committed by both sides & Abba knows this going in...but at least they are going. Those countries that accept this court can accept & enforce its ruling thru the sanctions I mentioned. Is it a fix all? Of course not....Is it something? Yes.... & we know if left to their own devices it will never be anything or I should say nothing will ever be allowed...so time has long been up IMO as my 1st line said "Better than nothing & for many years nothing is all there is to show for it." How will a hypothetical ICC ruling against Israel fix...anything? What actual good will it do the Palestinians, other than some satisfaction of getting back at Israel? It may be the grounds for economic sanctions against Israel. How could Israel's largest trading partner the EU continue support for a country that is harboring convicted war criminals? Guess it was important to edit the rest of my post out...oh well. And how would such hypothetical sanctions which might follow a hypothetical ruling serve the Palestinians? Might hurt Israel (and in turn, the Palestinians themselves, seeing as economies are tied), but how will it improve things for the Palestinians? Will such hypothetical actions would have a significant positive (from the Palestinian point of view) effect on Israeli policy? The EU being Israel's largest trading partner is not something set in stone. Israel trade relationship with Asia been steadily on the rise for quite a while now, for example. With the ICC usually taking its time to actually start an investigation, and more time to reach a conclusion, these things may not be materializing anytime soon (at least not on the merit of the ICC thing alone). If the EU considers the so-called Palestinian unity government to be a valid construct, then the PA could be seen as associated with Hamas. Hamas itself (or, as some countries differentiate, its military wing) is designated as a terrorist organization. Does the EU take severe action against the PA? Or does it, in fact, support the PA despite this association? There is a lot of talk about possible future outcomes that is not firmly based in reality. Added bit in reply to your edit: I did not claim that there could be no negative outcomes for Israel as a result of an unfavorable ICC ruling. Rather I just think that such investigation and rulings are yet to materialize, and that non of it is going to happen (if at all) as quickly or as smoothly as some seem to imagine. Netanyahu's reactions are to be understood within the context of the ongoing tit-for-tat between the sides, often accompanied by faux drama (which gets emulated on this forum), and while bearing in mind that this is election campaign time in Israel. Just how much of the indignation, rage and the like expressed by both sides is a matter of speculation. I am not responsible for other posters opinions, and as a general rule, try do not use the term "apologist". It seems that many posters, regardless of leaning, exhibit way too much enthusiasm in trusting their respective touted party lines. Edited January 14, 2015 by Morch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mania Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I am bringing in the impartiality bit as some seem to hold that the ICC rulings are universally accepted, or that its ruling denote absolute truth. That somehow, by virtue of a hypothetical future ruling against Israel will invalidate all of the Palestinian claims. This is not so. As you pointed out, it is a court, and it rules on specific criminal cases rather than arbitrates broad issues such as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This is why the move is considered nonconstructive, by some, as far as peace is concerned. Such a hypothetical ruling against Israel will not, by itself, change realities for the Palestinians, nor is it very likely to play a decisive factor in Israel's policy. Rather, it is simply another instance of the tit-for-tat thing, the difference being that this time the Palestinians seem to be more on top of things than usual. The move, if considered without its domestic significance, is more about applying further pressure on Israel, of scoring points in the game. That the USA, who was the central mediator involved in negotiations is not impartial, is true enough. I beg to differ on the issue of the USA exercising its veto right, though, which usually takes place within a defined context - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negroponte_doctrine. Granted that recent Israeli governments have made sustaining this USA policy harder to defend or explain. Then again, most people do not actually read the proposed UNSC resolutions, but make up their minds according to headlines. How does moving things from one impartial arena to another make things better or fair? How will a hypothetical ICC ruling against Israel fix...anything? What actual good will it do the Palestinians, other than some satisfaction of getting back at Israel? Yes I understood where you were coming from but as I said I did not agree because my post was aimed at getting the ball rolling & this is a criminal court looking at facts. We here even on this forum constantly say ....well that will never work The JDL folks constantly basically say....well it is their fault & they lost so let them eat cake Or at the very least always have an excuse as to anything further...tit for tat always The Palestinians fire their pipe bombs & this is what Israel uses to stall negotiations. Claiming stop this & we will stop that....But it has never held nor slowed expansion. Even the US themselves have said so in their meek way with no teeth. Yet hopefully with a criminal court involved all sides will have to tone it down. Also I did say both sides....This court could sanction either or both in "criminal matters that have only stalled negotiations As for the Veto deal I think history is there for all to see as it is record. Yes US veto's within their right but that does not cancel the obvious favoritism & what is basically an abuse of those rights If that vote was left to the US citizens in what ever form many of those vetos would have no legs. But ultimately that is a side issue & only leads us away from this topic. So sorry for the sidebar So to answer your final line "How will a hypothetical ICC ruling against Israel fix...anything?" It would not be hypothetical it is coming nor would it possibly be just against Israel as again it goes both ways. Israel is free to step forward with their own charges for the court to consider...but will they? Yes It will not instantly fix anything ...But it will do as all sanctions do & apply pressure If the pressure gets high enough choices will have to be made. It is no longer one mans decision but hopefully many countries involved "What actual good will it do the Palestinians, other than some satisfaction of getting back at Israel?" As above & again it can go both ways as a court should. Unlike the BS negotiations that have pretended to be anything more than token claims by both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggold Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 But NEITHER one has anywhere to go from here I would say that is wrong! from Israel's point of view there is still everything to play for. Well of course from "their" point of view they would....& that is half the problem. Fact is it has been decades & thousand upon thousands of dead bodies to show for it. No the problem is the arabs, they just can't accept Israel's existence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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