UK Driving licence

[lorddaverichards]

Does anyone have experience in renewing their 10 year photo driving license. Mine is due this June and have looked on the website but it is not very clear about those people who do not live in the UK but are not expats. I have a house in the UK which I rent and am assuming that i can just use that as my address on the license? However not sure if my tenants who i never meet would be trusted to post on my new license to me here in Thailand. Also i do return at least once a year staying with friends and hiring cars and would be concerned if I was stopped by the police and have to tell them i no longer live at that address but live abroad

Does anyone have any experience of this that they can share with me ?

Many thanks

Dave

[Jay Sata]

If you do not live in the UK or have a UK address then the police will accept your photo card being out of date.

[Eff1n2ret]

I had exactly the same dilemma, including my former address now being let to tenants, as I passed 70 last autumn. What I can tell you is that the online application form is very simple to complete, if you have the address of a close relative who is willing to let you use it for the purposes of the application, so that you can say you moved there x months/ years ago. Apart from, obviously, the details of your expiring licence (which they subsequently ask you to send back to them), the form asks for your NI number "for verification purposes", and requires your declaration that all the information given is true. The penalties for making a false declaration are a fine or up to 2 years in chokey - so I cannot recommend you to break the law.

If you have a Thai driving licence it is valid for use in the UK for up to one year from entry, and when I rented a car from Hertz last summer in Englandthey said they would accept it providing the details are in English (as they are on mine). So whether it's worth taking the risk of fraudulently renewing your UK licence is "up to you".

[Jay Sata]

Here is the official line on the subject from the government website.

It is not possible for an individual who is a UK citizen but is no longer resident in the UK to apply for a further driving licence.

Changes to British legislation resulting in the implementation of the Second EC Directive on Driving Licences (91/439/EEC) since 1 January 1997, require that driving licences are granted only to drivers who are resident in the UK.

However the sensible approach is to use a relatives address on the grounds you stay there when in the UK.

[steve187]

renew here - https://www.gov.uk/renew-driving-licence,

if your passport is less than 5 years old the photo from that can be used, you will have to return old licence but things go missing in the post, ask family /friend to collect from old address and hang onto it for you. you will need a government gateway password.

you could just renew at a post office next time you are in the UK

good article about photo's running out - http://www.fleetnews.co.uk/blog/entry/legislation-expired-photos-do-not-invalidate-driving-licences/46025/

[stubuzz]

I have to change the picture and my address at the same time. Can this be done?

[thonglorjimmy]

If you do not live in the UK or have a UK address then the police will accept your photo card being out of date.

That's useful to know, is this official policy, if so could you kindly supply a link to the source of this advice, just in case I get an officer who doesn't know the official line?

Thanks very much, its very reassuring.

[thonglorjimmy]

Here is the official line on the subject from the government website.

It is not possible for an individual who is a UK citizen but is no longer resident in the UK to apply for a further driving licence.

Changes to British legislation resulting in the implementation of the Second EC Directive on Driving Licences (91/439/EEC) since 1 January 1997, require that driving licences are granted only to drivers who are resident in the UK.

However the sensible approach is to use a relatives address on the grounds you stay there when in the UK.

Once again thanks for clearing this up, is the last sentence also the official line? I'm grateful for the advice, I'd assumed that wasn't strictly legal.

[evadgib]

I have to change the picture and my address at the same time. Can this be done?

Unless the rules have changed yours will be free due to the change of address:)

[sumrit]

When I went back to the UK for three months a couple of years ago I forgot to take my UK driving licence with me, although I did have my Thai licence. I asked at the local police station and they told me I was entitled to drive in the UK on my Thai licence for up to one year.

They did warn me that the only drawback with using a foreign licence was over fixed penalty offences (speeding, etc). Offences can't be dealt with by fixed penalty but must go to court, meaning a probable increase in any fine.

One of the officers then suggested, as I was there for three months, why didn't I just declare my current licence 'lost' (meaning it wouldn't need to be produced) and apply for a new one at the address where I was staying.

[Jay Sata]

When I went back to the UK for three months a couple of years ago I forgot to take my UK driving licence with me, although I did have my Thai licence. I asked at the local police station and they told me I was entitled to drive in the UK on my Thai licence for up to one year.

They did warn me that the only drawback with using a foreign licence was over fixed penalty offences (speeding, etc). Offences can't be dealt with by fixed penalty but must go to court, meaning a probable increase in any fine.

One of the officers then suggested, as I was there for three months, why didn't I just declare my current licence 'lost' (meaning it wouldn't need to be produced) and apply for a new one at the address where I was staying.

A nice sensible approach there from Plod.

[Eff1n2ret]

Here is the official line on the subject from the government website.

It is not possible for an individual who is a UK citizen but is no longer resident in the UK to apply for a further driving licence.

Changes to British legislation resulting in the implementation of the Second EC Directive on Driving Licences (91/439/EEC) since 1 January 1997, require that driving licences are granted only to drivers who are resident in the UK.

However the sensible approach is to use a relatives address on the grounds you stay there when in the UK.

Once again thanks for clearing this up, is the last sentence also the official line? I'm grateful for the advice, I'd assumed that wasn't strictly legal.

It isn't legal, it's taking the p155.

Section 89 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 says :- (1)A licence authorising the driving of motor vehicles of any class shall not be granted to any person unless he [F1meets the relevant residence requirement.....

and Para 10 of the Road Vehicles (Driving Livences) Regulations 1999 says :-

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1A)b of section 89 of the Traffic Act the holder of an

exchangeable licence satisfies the relevant residence requirement if he has been normally

resident in Great Britain for a period of not more than five years.

So, by all means give a relative's address for your renewal application, but don't kid yourself that you are not making a false statement if you actually live in Thailand. By the way, the Reg I've quoted applies to Great Britain. There's probably another para there about Northern Ireland, but I can't be bothered to look for it.

[theoldgit]

When I went back to the UK for three months a couple of years ago I forgot to take my UK driving licence with me, although I did have my Thai licence. I asked at the local police station and they told me I was entitled to drive in the UK on my Thai licence for up to one year.

They did warn me that the only drawback with using a foreign licence was over fixed penalty offences (speeding, etc). Offences can't be dealt with by fixed penalty but must go to court, meaning a probable increase in any fine.

One of the officers then suggested, as I was there for three months, why didn't I just declare my current licence 'lost' (meaning it wouldn't need to be produced) and apply for a new one at the address where I was staying.

A nice sensible approach there from Plod.

A sensible approach by the plod? What advising you lie in an attempt to circumnavigate the law, I suspect that he would deny making such a stupid comment.

The guidance from most police forces is that if you're required to produce you licence and cannot because you claim it's lost, that you will be prosecuted for failing to produce, if you find your licence, or get a replacement, the relevant department may cancel the summons providing you approach within 28 days of issue.

Maybe that officer isn't aware of the PNC

[sumrit]

When I went back to the UK for three months a couple of years ago I forgot to take my UK driving licence with me, although I did have my Thai licence. I asked at the local police station and they told me I was entitled to drive in the UK on my Thai licence for up to one year.

They did warn me that the only drawback with using a foreign licence was over fixed penalty offences (speeding, etc). Offences can't be dealt with by fixed penalty but must go to court, meaning a probable increase in any fine.

One of the officers then suggested, as I was there for three months, why didn't I just declare my current licence 'lost' (meaning it wouldn't need to be produced) and apply for a new one at the address where I was staying.

A nice sensible approach there from Plod.

A sensible approach by the plod? What advising you lie in an attempt to circumnavigate the law, I suspect that he would deny making such a stupid comment.

The guidance from most police forces is that if you're required to produce you licence and cannot because you claim it's lost, that you will be prosecuted for failing to produce, if you find your licence, or get a replacement, the relevant department may cancel the summons providing you approach within 28 days of issue.

Maybe that officer isn't aware of the PNC

Just to clarify, I went to my local police station primarily to ask if I could drive using my Thai licence as any other visitor to the UK can do. The two officers on duty both confirmed that I could.

It was only after I'd said I was back in the UK on holiday for at least three months, was also still employed in the UK and paying UK tax and NI, that they suggested I could be living back in the UK and apply for replacement licence. The purpose was to make it easier should I commit a driving offence that would normally be dealt with by a fixed penalty. Saying my old licence was lost 'while travelling' was their suggestion to make the process simpler and I could always return it to the DVLA in the future, 'if found'.

While I agree saying the licence was lost when I was pretty sure it was locked in my safe in Thailand wasn't correct, it was a safe bet nobody from the DVLA would find it. I also thought it was a sensible approach from the police who were just offering an option to make life easier all round.

As I don't normally break the law while driving I chose to just use my Thai licence.

[Eff1n2ret]

It isn't legal, it's taking the p155.

Section 89 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 says :- (1)A licence authorising the driving of motor vehicles of any class shall not be granted to any person unless he [F1meets the relevant residence requirement.....

and Para 10 of the Road Vehicles (Driving Livences) Regulations 1999 says :-

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1A)b of section 89 of the Traffic Act the holder of an

exchangeable licence satisfies the relevant residence requirement if he has been normally

resident in Great Britain for a period of not more than five years.

So, by all means give a relative's address for your renewal application, but don't kid yourself that you are not making a false statement if you actually live in Thailand. By the way, the Reg I've quoted applies to Great Britain. There's probably another para there about Northern Ireland, but I can't be bothered to look for it.

On re-reading my post yesterday I've realised that I was mistaken in quoting Para 10 of the 1999 Regs, which is something to do with "exchangeable licences", whatever they are, and the limit of not more than five years would be nonsense if applied to most UK residents.

In fact, the relevant clause is in the 1988 Act itself, as follows:-

(1A)An applicant meets the relevant residence requirement referred to in subsection (1) above if on the date the application for the licence is made—

(a & b refer to "Community licences" and "exchangeable licences")

©in any other case, he is normally resident in Great Britain

Apologies for my previous misquotation - but the conclusion remains the same, i.e. the words "normally resident" don't allow for those who don't live in the UK, even if they're visiting when they apply.

[ThaiPauly]

It's a 2000 quid fine if you are caught falsifying information to get a UK DL

I applied for an International Driving License, that keeps me 100% legal while driving at home.

I am sure the 500 baht it costs is better than risking a large fine, you may have to attend court in some circumstances which could cost you the price of another trip to the UK

[theoldgit]

An international licence is really only a translation of your licence, and isn't necessary if your licence is printed in English, as Thai licences are.

It's perfectly legal to drive in the UK using a Thai licence for up to twelve months.

[ThaiPauly]

If that's the case OG will car rental companies in the UK accept a Thai License?

Why would there be a need for an International Driving License at all?

Cheers

TP

[NanLaew]

If that's the case OG will car rental companies in the UK accept a Thai License?

Why would there be a need for an International Driving License at all?

Cheers

TP

UK car rental companies will accept a Thai DL. This is based on my personal experience based on an 10 PM pickup at Thrifty, Manchester Airport about 9 months ago.

In fact, having a UK DL required that I provide at least two other forms of identity beyond the DL, passport and credit card being used (billing address much match the UK DL address) with great emphasis on a either tax statement or utility bill in my name (mobile phone bills excluded). The desk agent asked where I had come from and if I had a DL for that country. Using the Thai DL saved a whole lot of hassle and paperwork and got me on the road and to my destination by midnight.

[theoldgit]

I've used a Thai licence to rent a car in the UK a number of times, I have never shown, or been asked for, an International Driving Licence, my experience mirrors the previous poster.

UK car company websites I've checked, I did so recently because of an up coming visit, advise that a foreign licence must have the details in English, which Thai licences do. Most, if not all, advise that if you use an International Licence the actual home licence must still be produced.

http://www.5thgear.co.uk/licence.html

[brewsterbudgen]

I renewed my UK licence last week online. Very easy and they sent the new licence to my sister's address in the UK, which is the address I use for UK officialdom.

[Jay Sata]

I've used a Thai licence to rent a car in the UK a number of times, I have never shown, or been asked for, an International Driving Licence, my experience mirrors the previous poster.

UK car company websites I've checked, I did so recently because of an up coming visit, advise that a foreign licence must have the details in English, which Thai licences do. Most, if not all, advise that if you use an International Licence the actual home licence must still be produced.

http://www.5thgear.co.uk/licence.html

Just to correct you on a point and that is the document is called a permit and not a licence. In general terms it is a translation of your driving licence. It has no stand alone value if not presented in conjunction with the original licence.

UK licences are valid to age 70. It is only the photo card that requires renewal.

Failing to renew is not an endorsable offence.

The application form requests current address but imposes no requirement on how long you stay there.

So someone on holiday in the UK can use the address of where they are staying during the visit.

It is estimated around 2 million people in the UK have expired photo cards.

There is some interesting legal advice below;

The plastic part of the two part driving licence has a photograph upon it.

To the right of the photo at no. 4b is a date. This is the date when the photograph expires. That is all it is.

Some police forces have interpreted this date as if the licence expires on that date and are saying that after the date at 4b the licence is not valid. This if true creates the offence of Driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence contrary to s.87.1, which is an endorseable offence and carries penalty points.

The information on the licence contradicts itself. On the back of the licence it says at 4b, licence valid to. Yet at the top of the back of the licence the expiry date for the class of vehicle is clearly stated.

As the photo must be updated every 10 years the date at 4b clearly refers to the photo only.

If you fail to update your photo you commit an offence under s.99.5 RTA 1988 (see s2a and s3). This is for failing to have the correct information on the licence.

This is a non-endorseable offence.

A licence remains valid until such time as it is revoked by the DVLA. That is only achieved by them sending out a notice which gives the date from when the licence is no longer valid. Until that occurs, the licence is valid and so the offence under s.87.1 is not committed by the photo being out of date. That offence is committed after the date notified by the DVLA.

If you are stopped and prosecuted under s.87.1 for having an out of date photograph you should plead not guilty at court. Clearly, if the correct offence under s.99.5 is alleged you should plead guilty.

Some insurers have said that an out of date photo invalidates your vehicle insurance, because the licence is invalid. That is a flawed argument, because the licence is not invalid until the DVLA revoke it. Again, some police forces are trying to prosecute people for not having insurance because they say the licence is invalid. Again, I do not believe that is correct.

Source

http://www.andrew-solicitors.co.uk/2012/10/05/is-your-driving-licence-photo-out-of-date/#.VMRPHtoaySM

[sean in udon]

Appreciate the op's question and all the answers, as my UK license expired 10 days ago and I was wondering how to deal with it.

Having a valid Thai license obviously makes things easier if/when I return to the UK.

Slightly off topic, presumably a Thai visiting the UK can drive using their Thai license? Scary thought, considering the driving we all witness on the roads in Thailand.

Interesting post by Jay Sata.

[Jay Sata]

As per my previous post Sean your licence has not expired,it is only the photo card that needs to be renewed.

And yes a Thai with all their lack of skills can hire from Heathrow and drive in to London.

Their attitudes to roundabout skills and pedestrian crossings not to mention flashing their lights at other motorists might lead,to interesting consequences.

[brewsterbudgen]

I've used a Thai licence to rent a car in the UK a number of times, I have never shown, or been asked for, an International Driving Licence, my experience mirrors the previous poster.

UK car company websites I've checked, I did so recently because of an up coming visit, advise that a foreign licence must have the details in English, which Thai licences do. Most, if not all, advise that if you use an International Licence the actual home licence must still be produced.

http://www.5thgear.co.uk/licence.html

Just to correct you on a point and that is the document is called a permit and not a licence. In general terms it is a translation of your driving licence. It has no stand alone value if not presented in conjunction with the original licence.

UK licences are valid to age 70. It is only the photo card that requires renewal.

Failing to renew is not an endorsable offence.

The application form requests current address but imposes no requirement on how long you stay there.

So someone on holiday in the UK can use the address of where they are staying during the visit.

It is estimated around 2 million people in the UK have expired photo cards.

There is some interesting legal advice below;

The plastic part of the two part driving licence has a photograph upon it.

To the right of the photo at no. 4b is a date. This is the date when the photograph expires. That is all it is.

Some police forces have interpreted this date as if the licence expires on that date and are saying that after the date at 4b the licence is not valid. This if true creates the offence of Driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence contrary to s.87.1, which is an endorseable offence and carries penalty points.

The information on the licence contradicts itself. On the back of the licence it says at 4b, licence valid to. Yet at the top of the back of the licence the expiry date for the class of vehicle is clearly stated.

As the photo must be updated every 10 years the date at 4b clearly refers to the photo only.

If you fail to update your photo you commit an offence under s.99.5 RTA 1988 (see s2a and s3). This is for failing to have the correct information on the licence.

This is a non-endorseable offence.

A licence remains valid until such time as it is revoked by the DVLA. That is only achieved by them sending out a notice which gives the date from when the licence is no longer valid. Until that occurs, the licence is valid and so the offence under s.87.1 is not committed by the photo being out of date. That offence is committed after the date notified by the DVLA.

If you are stopped and prosecuted under s.87.1 for having an out of date photograph you should plead not guilty at court. Clearly, if the correct offence under s.99.5 is alleged you should plead guilty.

Some insurers have said that an out of date photo invalidates your vehicle insurance, because the licence is invalid. That is a flawed argument, because the licence is not invalid until the DVLA revoke it. Again, some police forces are trying to prosecute people for not having insurance because they say the licence is invalid. Again, I do not believe that is correct.

Source

http://www.andrew-solicitors.co.uk/2012/10/05/is-your-driving-licence-photo-out-of-date/#.VMRPHtoaySM

One good thing about applying online, is that if you have a valid UK passport, there is no need to get an updated photo as they can use your passport photo.

[sumrit]

As per my previous post Sean your licence has not expired,it is only the photo card that needs to be renewed.

And yes a Thai with all their lack of skills can hire from Heathrow and drive in to London.

Their attitudes to roundabout skills and pedestrian crossings not to mention flashing their lights at other motorists might lead,to interesting consequences.

Just an interesting take on this rule.

A person with a valid licence, issued not just from Thailand but from any country in the world, is considered (by the UK government and UK law) to be competent to drive to UK standards on UK roads from the moment they arrive, without having any experience of UK conditions whatsoever, and they can continue to drive for a full twelve months.

But after a year, having gained a full years experience and knowledge of driving on UK roads, they are considered incompetent and can no longer drive until they've proved their ability by taking a UK driving test.

Now, if a person has been considered legally competent to drive in the UK from day one until day 365, what changes in their ability are there on day 366 to make them incompetent????

[theoldgit]

I fully realise there is no such thing as an International Driving Licence, when I drafted my response to the post I actually said so but left it out, deciding to use the usual term to avoid any possible confusion.

IDP's are only issued in the UK by the Post Office and motoring organisations, I left that out as well as it's not relevant on a Thai based forum, I did however say that the IDP is only valid when presented with an actual licence.

The DVLA have told me in writing that you must actually be a UK resident to renew your licence, some people use friends or relatives addresses and whilst evidence from other posters indicates you would get away with it, I suspect they would check your identity if they felt there was a need. Indeed there is an online checking service to check the validity of your licence, https://www.gov.uk/view-driving-licence, and on this they advise that they will cross check your identity with their own records as well as that of the DWP and the HMRC. My licence is said to be expired as my photocard has expired.

My answer from the DVLA also said that I cannot renew my licence when visiting the UK, no matter for how long my trip is.

The DVLA advised me that whilst my licence had expired I wouldn't need to take a further test if I moved back to the UK as I still had the right to drive, adding that when I turned 70, I still do not have to re-take a driving test, all I'm required to do is renew my driving licence using a form they will send me, I must then renew my licence every three years thereafter.

If you drive on an expired licence or a licence with an incorrect address, you are liable for a fine of £1,000.

@ brewsterbudgen, as a matter of interest are you on the Electoral Register at your sister home? are you also registered there for tax and pension purposes?

The paper licence has been abolished, you now only need a valid photocard.

[sumrit]

The paper licence has been abolished, you now only need a valid photocard.

When you get a new photo card licence you are also issued with a paper version that can be produced as an alternative to the photo one.

The new paper version may may not look like the old style (pre-photo) licence but they haven't actually been abolished and are a legal document in the same way as the photo licence is.

[brewsterbudgen]

@theoldgit

I was on the Electoral register at my previous home in London and, in fact, had an overseas ballot sent to me in Thailand for the first 3 years that I lived in Thailand. I let it lapse after that, but I don't know whether not re-applying for an overseas vote automatically removes you from the Electoral Roll.

I live and work in Thailand under an Extension of Stay based on work, and have always done so since I arrived here in late 2005. Although I own a car and condo, I am well aware that my ststus here is purely based on my work permit and if I leave my job I will no longer have the right to live in Thailand unless I change my visa status. For that reason, I still consider myself a resident of the UK, just one who is working abroad. I've been sent and completed a Self-Assessment Tax Return each year, although this year they've advised me I no longer have to. I have UK bank accounts, 28 years paid NI contributions, a Final Salary Pension, and if I need healthcare I fully expect to use the NHS! Although it's my sister's house, about one-third of its value is mine (although this is not shown on the deeds).

So, as I understand it, I'm still entitled to a UK driver's licence, and any other state benefits, even though I've been living permanently in Thailand for nearly 10 years.

Am I right?

[theoldgit]

To be honest BB I don't know the answer to your question.

The point I was making is that if I can check my licence online with the DVLA advising they double check with the DWP and HMRC before giving me an answer, with that answer coming instantly, then the UK Government are more joined up than I thought.

I know banks and the like check the electoral register, so I assume HMG do as well, but I don't know.

Regarding the NHS, and I apologise for continuing off topic, I am aware that non emergency medical treatment is subject to you being normally resident in the UK, which neither of us are, I cant speak for you but I pay a fair amount of UK tax and I did make NI contributions until I reached 60, but I'm not entitled. I don't know how much they check on eligibility, even if they do at all, but in these days of cuts I suspect they may do so more these days, I buy medical insurance when I visit.

You and I are both entitled to UK Licences but cannot renew without a UK address.