% Markup Properties compared to development costs

[AnotherOneAmerican]

You do the math....and see who's laughing all the way to the bank!

I think a lot of the problem we are getting from the guys posting here, is they don't want to believe their Thai wife, Thai family, Thai friends, et al have been stealing from them. (not to mention building suppliers, tradesman, utility companies ............ )

Of course the more trusting they are, the easier it is to steal from them.

You and I know the price because we've both done it, and kept the thieving to a minimum.

(and we both independently came to very similar price per M2!)

Edited January 23, 2015 by AnotherOneAmerican

[trogers]

One cannot compare, by cost per sqm, between building a single house and a housing estate. The latter has infra-structure cost and professional fees.

Your one house in the province need only the input of a draftsman, and your own supervision.

It's usually a lot cheaper for the developer, than the single builder.

500 taps are half the price of 1 tap (per unit)

750 shower rooms are h1/3 the price of 2 shower rooms (per room)

Design costs, same for 1 house as 250 houses (all the same on many moobaans).

Same for all the building supplies, you can buy direct from the factory, not Home Pro.

Similar savings for electricity and water, running utils to 250 homes is way cheaper than running utils to 1 home (per home).

I mean really, what are you on to think 1 is cheaper than 250?

Two hundred and fifty houses of the same design? We can deduce the class of moo baan you have chosen to live in should you have bought one.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

One cannot compare, by cost per sqm, between building a single house and a housing estate. The latter has infra-structure cost and professional fees.

Your one house in the province need only the input of a draftsman, and your own supervision.

It's usually a lot cheaper for the developer, than the single builder.

500 taps are half the price of 1 tap (per unit)

750 shower rooms are h1/3 the price of 2 shower rooms (per room)

Design costs, same for 1 house as 250 houses (all the same on many moobaans).

Same for all the building supplies, you can buy direct from the factory, not Home Pro.

Similar savings for electricity and water, running utils to 250 homes is way cheaper than running utils to 1 home (per home).

I mean really, what are you on to think 1 is cheaper than 250?

Two hundred and fifty houses of the same design? We can deduce the class of moo baan you have chosen to live in should you have bought one.

People buying condos don't attract that sort of comment, so why say it about a house.

I would have done it the individual way, but found it impossible to avoid the 'thief factor'.

Easier to buy the same as every other Thai, at the price every other Thai in the moobaan paid.

I get essentially the same living space as you but for half the price, because it's not individual on the outside.

[billphillips]

Just a point of interest ..... Double glazed windows, heat retention of about 10% of the window only. Sound insulation of a 12mm airspace unit is negligible. Solar gain prevention is negligible too. If in an aluminium frame; remember that aluminium transmits heat about 400 times better than glass! All in all I wouldn't be paying for double glazing in Thailand it's not cost effective particularly for a window that's in the open position most of the time.

It's actually the sunlight on the glass (solar gain) that causes the room to become hot. Sunshades outside would be a better option for me.

Edited January 24, 2015 by billphillips

[beachproperty]

Just a point of interest ..... Double glazed windows, heat retention of about 10% of the window only. Sound insulation of a 12mm airspace unit is negligible. Solar gain prevention is negligible too. If in an aluminium frame; remember that aluminium transmits heat about 400 times better than glass! All in all I wouldn't be paying for double glazing in Thailand it's not cost effective particularly for a window that's in the open position most of the time.

It's actually the sunlight on the glass (solar gain) that causes the room to become hot. Sunshades outside would be a better option for me.

You must have misread or misunderstood my post.

The sound insulation of double paned 12mm glass (ie 24 mm of glass NOT 12mm airspace) is a LOT better than standard 6mm glass which was my MAIN purpose.

As a side benefit though the cold air retention of the air conditioning in the house is also fantastic ....set air con at 25-56 and rooms stay cool.

Edited January 24, 2015 by beachproperty

[Millenial]

Ok then - Try and price this up.

Downstairs (interior)

if we say the kitchen/lounge has been extended 2 meters adding a additional 12 sqm there, and the additional bedroom im guessing is an additional 16sqm

ontop of the existing 116sqm (downstairs) = 144sqm in total.

Then the roof terrace and stairs were looking at say 21 sqm (pluus the stairs image shown directly below for design)

Rest.

Roof Terrace *Please note the white area is the terrace, the rest is roof in the design shown.

Roof will have concrete seats - coffee lounger similar to this

With Awning similar to this

Building roof design will be retained for other areas of the roof like this.

Rest of the design will be along the same lines as this but ofcourse on a larger scale to cater for the additional br and the enlarged lounge/kitchen area.

Internally we will have 1 main bathroom (inc bath for us). one additional shower/bathroom for the other two rooms and the general, i see no reason to add a 3rd..

Oblivously this image is missing a additional bedroom and enlarged kitchen.

What would you hazard a guess to the construction costs.

:- Thai Wife, Thai Husband (Family)

:- Developer

[Millenial]

#your stating 10k per Sqm this works out at 1,6m based on them figures, something I just can not see considering tiles alone are 150k to do a property this size (approx)

[trogers]

One cannot compare, by cost per sqm, between building a single house and a housing estate. The latter has infra-structure cost and professional fees.

Your one house in the province need only the input of a draftsman, and your own supervision.

It's usually a lot cheaper for the developer, than the single builder.

500 taps are half the price of 1 tap (per unit)

750 shower rooms are h1/3 the price of 2 shower rooms (per room)

Design costs, same for 1 house as 250 houses (all the same on many moobaans).

Same for all the building supplies, you can buy direct from the factory, not Home Pro.

Similar savings for electricity and water, running utils to 250 homes is way cheaper than running utils to 1 home (per home).

I mean really, what are you on to think 1 is cheaper than 250?

Two hundred and fifty houses of the same design? We can deduce the class of moo baan you have chosen to live in should you have bought one.

People buying condos don't attract that sort of comment, so why say it about a house.

I would have done it the individual way, but found it impossible to avoid the 'thief factor'.

Easier to buy the same as every other Thai, at the price every other Thai in the moobaan paid.

I get essentially the same living space as you but for half the price, because it's not individual on the outside.

Condo buildings are constrained as floors are stacked one on top another. Even with such a constraint, you do not get only one floor layout for the whole building.

A housing estate starts off like a blank piece of paper. Creativity can be employed, or a checker board with only one design for the whole estate.

[IMHO]

Ok then - Try and price this up.

Downstairs (interior)

if we say the kitchen/lounge has been extended 2 meters adding a additional 12 sqm there, and the additional bedroom im guessing is an additional 16sqm

ontop of the existing 116sqm (downstairs) = 144sqm in total.

Then the roof terrace and stairs were looking at say 21 sqm (pluus the stairs image shown directly below for design)

Rest.

Roof Terrace *Please note the white area is the terrace, the rest is roof in the design shown.

Roof will have concrete seats - coffee lounger similar to this

With Awning similar to this

Building roof design will be retained for other areas of the roof like this.

Rest of the design will be along the same lines as this but ofcourse on a larger scale to cater for the additional br and the enlarged lounge/kitchen area.

Internally we will have 1 main bathroom (inc bath for us). one additional shower/bathroom for the other two rooms and the general, i see no reason to add a 3rd..

Oblivously this image is missing a additional bedroom and enlarged kitchen.

What would you hazard a guess to the construction costs.

:- Thai Wife, Thai Husband (Family)

:- Developer

There's quite a few components here you'd normally only find in a 2 storey house - concrete stairs, concrete roof - which in this case can't be planks with some mesh and a top pour - it would need to be solid concrete and rebar (and a lot of formwork) because of the water loaded that needs to be factored in. There's also another full set of beams needed to support the roof. The design also has a substantial amount of glass per sqm of floor, which is going to skew the cost upwards.

As a rough guide, I'd expect it to land around 15K +/-3K Baht per sqm.

Edited January 24, 2015 by IMHO

[beachproperty]

Ok then - Try and price this up.

Downstairs (interior)

if we say the kitchen/lounge has been extended 2 meters adding a additional 12 sqm there, and the additional bedroom im guessing is an additional 16sqm

ontop of the existing 116sqm (downstairs) = 144sqm in total.

Then the roof terrace and stairs were looking at say 21 sqm (pluus the stairs image shown directly below for design)

Rest.

Roof Terrace *Please note the white area is the terrace, the rest is roof in the design shown.

Roof will have concrete seats - coffee lounger similar to this

With Awning similar to this

Building roof design will be retained for other areas of the roof like this.

Rest of the design will be along the same lines as this but ofcourse on a larger scale to cater for the additional br and the enlarged lounge/kitchen area.

Internally we will have 1 main bathroom (inc bath for us). one additional shower/bathroom for the other two rooms and the general, i see no reason to add a 3rd..

Oblivously this image is missing a additional bedroom and enlarged kitchen.

What would you hazard a guess to the construction costs.

:- Thai Wife, Thai Husband (Family)

:- Developer

There's quite a few components here you'd normally only find in a 2 storey house - concrete stairs, concrete roof - which in this case can't be planks with some mesh and a top pour - it would need to be solid concrete and rebar (and a lot of formwork) because of the water loaded that needs to be factored in. There's also another full set of beams needed to support the roof. The design also has a substantial amount of glass per sqm of floor, which is going to skew the cost upwards.

As a rough guide, I'd expect it to land around 15K +/-3K Baht per sqm.

IMHO's rough guide is fairly done and I believe easily achievable .

BUT saying that ....as I have pointed out before I am presently doing one very similar .....2 story , concrete stairs (7), concrete roofs ( 2 single pore, rebar reinforced)....this property has been all engineered with 6 meter beams using #16 rebar and over 700 sq meters of tile (floors, patios, bathrooms with walls floor to ceiling, and walkways)......additionally I have added double walls with insulation inside, double paned windows (12mm).

AND all at a cost of approx 9,000 baht a sq meter.

Millenial You stated in an earlier post that your estimate for tiles would be 150K baht. I can now see where you are lost. The bathroom done below as show, the tiles are 60x60 and cost 125 baht a piece ( aprox 170 baht a sq meter) ....all the other tiles in the house cost less but also look as great so 150 sq meters at 170 baht = 25,000 baht for total cost of tiles (way less than you 150K estimate)....Of course the tiles have to be laid but in my case the builder and his workers do all the tiling included in the bid. In my construction job (aprox 9000 baht sq meter) there are 9 similar bathrooms.

Below is one of four of the kitchens that were included in the construction bid of less than 9000 baht a sq meter

You nee to do some shopping and comparing....your estimates are WAY off ....In another thread you wanted to use the old bricks (if you could save them) for the perimeter wall and said that it would save you 200,000 baht....again WAY off ...probably cost you more in the long run

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/793251-reusing-existing-house-bricks-in-exterior-wall/

Not sure what you base your estimates on but so far you just seem to be picking numbers out of the air. Gotta get out and do some comparison shopping to find the deals....

You can buy a nice toilet for 2000 baht (see photo above) or you can pay up to 15,000 baht ....which you can get but the question is WHY? when you can get a similarly good looking product for 1/7 the price. The savings add up for all the different items .....You can find deals at Home Pro but ....generally they are more expensive so gotta look around

With all that being said ....I still believe you could easily build out your project for 1.5 million (10,000 baht a sq meter)

BUT hey .....good luck anyway....Gotta do the time to save the dosh. ..

Edited January 25, 2015 by beachproperty

[beachproperty]

Millenial...you may want to rethink the floor plan you are considering.....Why? If the foot mark of the plan is 10 meters by 10 meters (which it appears to be) consider the following :

first off it shows two bathrooms that appear to be 1.5 meters x 1.5 meters.....WAY too small.....barely enough for either a toilet, sink or shower only.

The bedrooms (one looks 3 meters x 3 meters and the other 3 meters x 4 meters) ...again IMO too small...Just enough room for a bed and probably not enough room for a clothes cabinet or dresser.

Inside Living area.... 4.5 meters x 7 meters seems OK ...BUT you are putting in a kitchen, eating area and Lounge area ....AGAIN ....way too small.

Trying to put too much into too small a space.....just my opinion but thought you should know

Edited January 25, 2015 by beachproperty

[beachproperty]

....correction to previous post ^ regarding size (I was looking at the small two bedroom)

As for the 3 bedroom (with a possible 4th bedroom on top).....much better design EXCEPT bathrooms still TOO small and only 1.5 bathrooms for 4 bedrooms.

Edited January 25, 2015 by beachproperty

[IMHO]

....correction to previous post ^ regarding size (I was looking at the small two bedroom)

As for the 3 bedroom (with a possible 4th bedroom on top).....much better design EXCEPT bathrooms still TOO small and only 1.5 bathrooms for 4 bedrooms.

Right, for a bathroom including shower, toilet and sink, the smallest workable dimensions are either 2x2 or 1.5x3 - the latter affording a better layout (shower not firing onto a sink or toilet), anything smaller than this and it just doesn't work.

Edited January 25, 2015 by IMHO

[splitlid]

P1000478.JPG

Below is one of four of the kitchens that were included in the construction bid of less than 9000 baht a sq meter

P1000474.JPG

You can buy a nice toilet for 2000 baht (see photo above) or you can pay up to 15,000 baht ....which you can get but the question is WHY? when you can get a similarly good looking product for 1/7 the price.

That mogen toilet, cost approx. 6000 baht, where did you pick it up from for 2k?

[beachproperty]

P1000478.JPG

Below is one of four of the kitchens that were included in the construction bid of less than 9000 baht a sq meter

P1000474.JPG

You can buy a nice toilet for 2000 baht (see photo above) or you can pay up to 15,000 baht ....which you can get but the question is WHY? when you can get a similarly good looking product for 1/7 the price.

That mogen toilet, cost approx. 6000 baht, where did you pick it up from for 2k?

Picked it up at Home Pro when they had a special on it .....might have been 2499 baht or so.....sometimes their prices are good

For example today Home pro had a special on cooker top and above exhaust system ......10,000 baht for BOTH. So I picked up two sets for the new units.

[Millenial]

Hi, apologies been rather busy the last two days.

Ok to clarify, in Phuket we paid roughly 30k a SQM and in Krabi 20k a SQM this being why i found it hard to believe 10,000 baht per sqm, we have also built or rather still building a villa in Trang which is wooden final touches and oak imported for floor and ceiling etc, and currently at 5mthb - more of a natural modern house (Trunk Pillars etc), likely ending up costing around 10mb - 15mb all in when complete (inc. interior and the direct garden area) - the wives idea, i hate it, hence i am having more of a say on this one.

This discussion and the overlapping one of utilising the bricks from a property already on the land were to gage practicability.

This project is not a living house for me, or the wife, simply a new home for the mother, and when we are residing in Trang, comfortable for us also encase we end up staying rather than going over the land to ours (adding further value) though ill likely use more than the main as i prefer the views.

Also this is our land, our house, our investment so we don't want a shack, and ultimately we knocked down the old girls house....

Anyway, we want it at least modern, appealing on the eyes and practicable.

I do not need to get in to a discussion of just building any shack for her, this is something we like the look off, and likely the route we will go down, now as to the paying for such, this falls under the wives remit, as she will be covering the costs so we are trying to get a feel for the costs .

Going back to the knocking down a house, we were wondering the viability of knocking down this, utilising the materials, i.e the bricks in the parameter wall (2.7 rai - 10 rai if you include all our adjoining land in this particular area we own). Ive been told its a waste of time, by most, i fail to see this when structurally it does not matter if the bricks are whole as we have seen from stone walls etc, essentially they get plastered with cement and rendered so in all likely hood, not a problem.

One builder stated yes, a lot of hassle but can be done, another say smash and lay over the earth then dump mud on top (we do need to raise the entire area roughly 1 ft due to wet season when frogs are all over the land due to the land being the wash area for other properties in the clan). Yes a wall is required to keep the clan out (this and a shotgun ).

As you can see it is a rather large house, 20+ meters x 16 meters including 3 sets of garages (we will likely use structures of the garage to are advantage). Many rooms, many walls internally, many bricks - so we are trying to find the best way to utilise, if there is none, then the quickest, and cheapest to get rid off.

We are currently utilising the garage for storage, and the house as workmans storage

This is not just the house issues, we are landscaping also after so the priority is practicable beauty hence the house needs to go... as to people staying over, to be frank most of my friends when they come stay in the 5/6 * resorts around Phuket, or Samui and or a couple of condos we have in Phuket, like me they like their privacy, and cant abide tip-toeing around someones home.

[Anthony5]

I think I must miss something. The OP gives us a clear picture that he is very well off, with numerous multi million Baht properties and a friend circle who stay only in the most expensive hotels, yet he is looking to reuse the gray blocks from the old house

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/793251-reusing-existing-house-bricks-in-exterior-wall/

[Millenial]

I think I must miss something. The OP gives us a clear picture that he is very well off, with numerous multi million Baht properties and a friend circle who stay only in the most expensive hotels, yet he is looking to reuse the gray blocks from the old house

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/793251-reusing-existing-house-bricks-in-exterior-wall/

@Anthony, as you can clearly see above, this is not a refusal but simply a question on the route to reuse materials rather than pay for someone to knock down, and take away.

As to Multimillion baht properties, i am unsure what this has to do with a property that is being developed for the mother-in-law, also in regards to millionaires, the one thing someone with money does, is avoid wasting money - as then you end up with no money, best you go off and troll another topic and leave the adults to discuss such matters.

* Oh and to further insult your troll post, ** A Millionaire is nothing today, nearly all are one except the few even in $£. so it is not something to "Show Off" actually it is pretty vulgar and frowned upon.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Millenial

[beachproperty]

Milenial....no reason to get prissy about Anthony's response.

Personally I think he made a valid point ....ie You appear to be well off and am trying to save pennies by reusing garbage, which, more than likely will cost you more in the long run.

I understand the concept of trying to save money but unless you get value for what you save, then it's not worth it. (Really don't see the value in saving the old useless blocks unless used as a base for a road or fill somewhere.....better to let some Thai come in and demolish it for free (let him keep what ever he can recycle)

As I said earlier, the numbers you throw out are way out of whack and I have even pointed out why, so your statement about "avoiding wasting money" does not seem to apply to you or your wife as you are wasting money by Paying too Much if you pay more than 10,000 baht a square meter to build the home you've shown us

[Millenial]

Ok, old habits die hard and this forum is common for trolls, apologies.

In regard to paying more than 10,000 THB or what ever it be, we are attempting to get a feel for the price, nothing more, having been to various architects and developers, builders this price has been so inflated to the requirements and jumped in prices depending on who you are dealing/talking to, hence bringing on here to discuss.

as to saving some pennies, i feel this is a valid call, i.e i was asking, whether they could be reutilised as to having a thai come and take it away we were quoted 100 - 150k by a thai company local, though they generally deal in much larger cases than a small house, such as hotels, factories and so on. - but you can see the point of saving the money.

Hence my quest to find a use.

This is Southern Thailand not Phuket, krabi etc, where everything seems to have a strong price and Thai's really don't care whether you hire them or not most are happy to lay-around in their hammocks as they know they are making enough just on their farms.., just to clear land is a ridiculous 5-7k per rai. (grass, bushes not trees) .

Now it appears a strong suggestion to utilise the structure smashed to pieces and laid over the land ready for dirt to be piled on top, tell me can roofind material be used in the same manner? tile and metal.

As to ones wealth, i feel this has no place or reason to be discussed on a forum, its crude and rude, hence my reply above, we are all here for a calmer lifestyle and we leave the "jones's issues" back where we came from.

[beachproperty]

Ok, old habits die hard and this forum is common for trolls, apologies.

In regard to paying more than 10,000 THB or what ever it be, we are attempting to get a feel for the price, nothing more, having been to various architects and developers, builders this price has been so inflated to the requirements and jumped in prices depending on who you are dealing/talking to, hence bringing on here to discuss.

as to saving some pennies, i feel this is a valid call, i.e i was asking, whether they could be reutilised as to having a thai come and take it away we were quoted 100 - 150k by a thai company local, though they generally deal in much larger cases than a small house, such as hotels, factories and so on. - but you can see the point of saving the money.

Hence my quest to find a use.

This is Southern Thailand not Phuket, krabi etc, where everything seems to have a strong price and Thai's really don't care whether you hire them or not most are happy to lay-around in their hammocks as they know they are making enough just on their farms.., just to clear land is a ridiculous 5-7k per rai. (grass, bushes not trees) .

Now it appears a strong suggestion to utilise the structure smashed to pieces and laid over the land ready for dirt to be piled on top, tell me can roofind material be used in the same manner? tile and metal.

As to ones wealth, i feel this has no place or reason to be discussed on a forum, its crude and rude, hence my reply above, we are all here for a calmer lifestyle and we leave the "jones's issues" back where we came from.

Fair enough.....I hope what I've posted has been of some help and has given you at least a base line as to costs.

Good luck whatever you decide.

[Millenial]

It has certainly been appreciated.

I think the way we are going to go with this part of the project, is reuse the materials smashed across the land, then dirt on top which covers the other post and where it has been dragged in to this discussion.

As to this discussion, we will likely source the materials and now have to find other builders so they can work in sync with our current build.

Tell me is it easy to hire a balldozer of sorts in Thailand> or rather does anyone know where these can be hired in the south ?

[Anthony5]

P1000478.JPG

Below is one of four of the kitchens that were included in the construction bid of less than 9000 baht a sq meter

P1000474.JPG

You can buy a nice toilet for 2000 baht (see photo above) or you can pay up to 15,000 baht ....which you can get but the question is WHY? when you can get a similarly good looking product for 1/7 the price.

That mogen toilet, cost approx. 6000 baht, where did you pick it up from for 2k?

Picked it up at Home Pro when they had a special on it .....might have been 2499 baht or so.....sometimes their prices are good

For example today Home pro had a special on cooker top and above exhaust system ......10,000 baht for BOTH. So I picked up two sets for the new units.

Is that a Mogen toilet by the way, because I have exactly the same looking toilets from Homepro at around 2000 a piece, but they are Moya instead of Mogen

[beachproperty]

Tell me is it easy to hire a balldozer of sorts in Thailand> or rather does anyone know where these can be hired in the south ?

You're building in the south ...so I have no idea if easy or not but I would think that it would be very easy.....my builder easily found one who worked on the property for 2 days doing all the clearing and prep work for the foundations.

Key to any construction job is to have a trusted contractor who is fair to deal with, which I luckily have.

Again ....good luck

[beachproperty]

P1000478.JPG

Below is one of four of the kitchens that were included in the construction bid of less than 9000 baht a sq meter

P1000474.JPG

You can buy a nice toilet for 2000 baht (see photo above) or you can pay up to 15,000 baht ....which you can get but the question is WHY? when you can get a similarly good looking product for 1/7 the price.

That mogen toilet, cost approx. 6000 baht, where did you pick it up from for 2k?

Picked it up at Home Pro when they had a special on it .....might have been 2499 baht or so.....sometimes their prices are good

For example today Home pro had a special on cooker top and above exhaust system ......10,000 baht for BOTH. So I picked up two sets for the new units.

Is that a Mogen toilet by the way, because I have exactly the same looking toilets from Homepro at around 2000 a piece, but they are Moya instead of Mogen

Yes ....its is a Mogen. Homepro has specials on certain items every now and then so I bought the Mogen toilet when it was on sale. My general feeling is why pay more for a product when you can get basicly the same thing for less (ie....why pay 10,000 baht or more for a toilet when a 2000 or so baht toilet can do the same thing)

Edited January 26, 2015 by beachproperty

[hhgz]

Well, Millenai, your post has generated the replies that I expected. Everyone can do it cheaper, or knows someone who can do it cheaper, or knows someone who has claimed that he had it done cheaper, than what you proposed. As in many other places, in Thailand there's generally not enough time to do it right the first time, but there's plenty of time to do it over, and over, and over...If you can, you should see some older homes that the builder has constructed, and see how they've stood the test of time. One poster complain about a price hike of 100K THB, but doesn't give a time frame of when the original price was set. Regardless, the difference between the two prices is about $3000 US, nothing to sneeze at, but certainly not a deal breaker.