Need opinion from folks proficient in electrical wiring in bldgs

[watgate]

My thai g/f is living in a nice 4 story concrete bldg comprised solely of other thais and she resides on the 1st floor. About 1 week ago a large snake evidently crawled into an outside electrical panel box and caused major damage to the electrical components in the bldg. All the electrical outlets on the 1st and 2nd floors are black and charred from the resultant short caused be the snake. There is no electrical power currently in the bldg. The electrical lines running inside the the bldg are all blackened by the short. The room next to my g/f on the 1st floor was devastated by an electrical fire and I surmise since he had a computer turned on in his room, the current from the short traveled there and caused serious damage in his room. Evidently, a similar event happened on the 2nd floor,also in a room. I know VERY little about electricity and wiring in bldgs, thus my posting this. In walking around, I can see serious damage from the short and I am sure the WIFI was also hit hard. My question and concern is that mgmt is treating the tenants like mushrooms ( keeping them in the dark and feeding them b.s.) Initially, they were told it would be a week until power was restored,but not only hasn't it been restored, there is no one currently working onsite at the bldg to repair the serious damage. My g/f really likes the the bldg and her room, but with the hot weather approaching and no electricity in the building, she has to make a decision whether to to remain there and wait and hope that the electricity is restored or move to a new place, albeit not as nice. I was wondering if a problem of this magnitude was a lengthy process to fix and how long would it take to repair the sizeable damage to the electrical components and wiring should the work start? Would the workers have to snake new wiring throughout the whole bldg and install new electrical outlets, and if so, is that a lengthy process? What about electrical codes for this repair job? Would a qualified electrician be required to inspect the repairs, once completed, to ensure they were properly done? I realize, without seeing the damage firsthand,it is hard to make an informed opinion but considering the extensive damage caused by the electrical short and resultant electrical fire, it seems that this will take a considerable amount of time and expense to fix should they even start the repair process. I would appreciate any feedback from folks who are knowledgeable about wiring in bldgs and electricity in general and your best guess as to what would would be required to repair the damage and how long it might take to complete the repairs. Also, what assurances, if any that the repairs were done satisfactorily and the bldg is safe. Thank you.

[Paagai]

If the damage is as bad as the worst case scenario, and all the wiring has to be replaced it's probably a large job. A lot will depend on whether the cabling is all run in ducts and conduits and can be replaced more easily, or if it is surface mounted involving more work and aggravation. Depends on the management, but the bigger problem will likely be the condo management trying to get the job done cheaply, and waiting for a suitable quote, or having to wait for approval from insurers. If it really involves replacing ALL the wiring could take several weeks. Even if its a few rooms on a couple of floors it could be a week or two time they've got organised.

Seems unusual for an external fault to cause so much damage. I can only speculate the fault has resulted in a higher than normal voltage being applied to the system, e.g. across two phases of the three phase supply, or by a short/cross connection to the high voltage side of the transformer - this assumes the building has its own. There is also the issue of what damage has been done to appliances like fridges, TVs and Aircons

As to the qualification of the electricians/workers - TIT

Edited January 21, 2015 by Paagai

[Mrjlh]

Move ...post haste! Issues as big as this is never completely resolved. Not in Thailand. There are still too many unresolved questions as to why this would happen. She has a good reason to move and get her deposit back too. Should not even give it a second thought.

[sappersrest]

The power authority will not restore power until the building is rewired and passes an inspection as they do with all new builds now. If the wiring in the building is not inspected and replaced first I would be very dubious about living there.

You could also call into your local one stop PEA shop and get them to look into it.

Good luck

[onthedarkside]

I would guess that the complete electrical system was improperly installed in the first place. A snake shorting part of the electrical sytsem should only blow the fuses in that part of the system. I would hazard a guess that the fuse box system/method was inadequate, maybe even the load capacity of the wiring. Not really unusual in a lower quality Thai building. So not only the wiring needs replaced/upgraded but also the distribution system/fuseboxes. Big job. Needs to be done properly this time to pass Electricty Supply Company inspection.

No doubt the resourceful Thais will string a light line from a neighbouring building, lots of extension lines/sockets, and hey electric back.

[Nuddy]

Move out mate or I mean recommend to your friend to move out.

Don't worry about the bond or anything, just move quickly leave no forwarding address and forget about that place

I had some wiring faults once in a place I lived in and they kept telling me they could fix it but in the end, two weeks later they couldn't.

[nithisa78]

Good questions, not enough facts to answer correctly. Pity the landlord.

[Gentmartin]

I am also suprised one snake caused so much damage, was the snake actually seen ? I'd also like to know if the rooms are all metered separately, if so, the snake story lacks even more credence as there will be a distribution panel which would have tripped. My personal thoughts are, the wiring in the building was not fit for purpose and has burnt out due to the amount of current being drawn down incorrect sized cabling. Thus, I'd also suspect that the cables were buried rather than ducted, in which case re wiring is a huge job.

Only sensible thing would be to get out I'm afraid as; 1. I wouldnt trust the landlord to do a decent job and 2. Whatever quality of job to repair the damage, it's going to take forever.

Sorry about the hassle and i hope you get sorted out :-)

[Gentmartin]

I am also suprised one snake caused so much damage, was the snake actually seen ? I'd also like to know if the rooms are all metered separately, if so, the snake story lacks even more credence as there will be a distribution panel which would have tripped. My personal thoughts are, the wiring in the building was not fit for purpose and has burnt out due to the amount of current being drawn down incorrect sized cabling. Thus, I'd also suspect that the cables were buried rather than ducted, in which case re wiring is a huge job.

Only sensible thing would be to get out I'm afraid as; 1. I wouldnt trust the landlord to do a decent job and 2. Whatever quality of job to repair the damage, it's going to take forever.

Sorry about the hassle and i hope you get sorted out :-)

Hmmm you didn't see the damage yourself ?? Are you sure this isn't a ruse to get you to allow her to move in with you ?? ;-)

[sappersrest]

Probably the topic is better moved to the electrical forum for Crossys expert advice, he is the main man to ask.

[Brock]

I cant see how a snake in the distribution panel cause damage to power points and wiring through out the building.

I can see a voltage spike getting into the lines if the snake bridged the three phases and cause damage to electronics plugged in, but not damage the outlets, even in Thailand. I wonder if the wiring used an earth wire, or just used 2 wire or if there were earth leakage breakers installed.

If the outlets have indeed been damaged, then thee is something seriously wrong with the wiring, then the building woud need to be stripped and rewired properly if thats even possible.

Get out, and move some where safe.

P.S. I am an Aero electrician, but I do know how house/building wiring works.

[Dazinoz]

I cant see how a snake in the distribution panel cause damage to power points and wiring through out the building.

I can see a voltage spike getting into the lines if the snake bridged the three phases and cause damage to electronics plugged in, but not damage the outlets, even in Thailand. I wonder if the wiring used an earth wire, or just used 2 wire or if there were earth leakage breakers installed.

If the outlets have indeed been damaged, then thee is something seriously wrong with the wiring, then the building woud need to be stripped and rewired properly if thats even possible.

Get out, and move some where safe.

P.S. I am an Aero electrician, but I do know how house/building wiring works.

Agree.

An electrical circuit comes from the mains via the main switchboard through a fuse or circuit breaker. If something shorts in a circuit the fuse blows or the circuit breaker trips and does not affect any other circuit. If the circuit breaker was faulty and did not open, or the fuse too big, on a fault then that circuit could have burnt wiring, but again no other circuit. Electricity takes the shortest path. Even if the "snake" shorted the main switchboard of the building the damage would be restricted to that board and possibly the circuit supply in the board. Even if the "snake" shorted the three phases the resultant voltage would not be sufficient to damage circuits downstream of the short. Extremely high voltages (as compared to the standard domestic voltage) and currents would be needed to cause the type of damage you describe. This would more than likely come from the transformer supplying the building if it had an internal short.

I have seen that type of damage on an 11000 volt switchboard with very high current capacity when a cat chased a mouse into the board. The bodies of both the mouse and the cat were found in the clean up. The board was severely damaged but other than the immediate wiring within the board not damage was done to the circuits further downstream.

So in light of all that I can not really imagine how the damage happened unless from a very high voltage spike.

[onthedarkside]

Probably the topic is better moved to the electrical forum for Crossys expert advice, he is the main man to ask.

Good idea ---> moving now

[bankruatsteve]

Almost any critter caused damage to electrical is very local. IE: it doesn't spread like a virus throughout the network. So, it seems there is either a "story" being told or a hopeful excuse to exit. (?)

[Suradit69]

...a 4 story concrete bldg comprised solely of other thais ...

A somewhat unusual architectural feature.

[ozyjon]

The biggest issue with electrical wiring in Thailand

is that they forget to connect an EARTH wire,

perhaps why everything shorted and people get a

slight zap when they touch the washing machine.

Your situation is dangerous and won't be resolved.

MOVE OUT

[gandalf12]

You dont say how many rooms there are per floor. Lets say 10 rooms per floor so there is 40 rooms in total. If the wiring has been put directly inot the walls, then it is a big job and could take a month to replace the wiring.

If the wiring is surface mounted or in conduit, with a few good workers it shouldnt take much more than a week.

If the wiring was installed correctly, which is highly doubtful, damage will be limited to the box into which the snake got. Of course if it was installed right the snake would never have got in to the box in the first place.

I would definitely have all the wiring checked as a precaution though

Thing is to get the good workers

Edited January 21, 2015 by gandalf12

[Bruzzzz]

Only high voltage introduced into the low voltage circuits could do such damage so it seems the snake got into the substation and the only protection would be the service fuses on the supply side of the substation The external power box must be a would be bringing the power into the building and

[Bruzzzz]

Cont.

There is limited earthing in Thailand and the only RCD's I have seen are adjacent to the instantaneous electric hot water heaters. TIT so who knows how well the work was originally done was done and I doubt the repairs will be done properly. All wiring fixtures switches and connected appliances may be damaged and inspection testing and replacement will be required.

[Crossy]

I'm with Bruzzzz, the only way anything like the damage described could occur would be if Hissing Sid managed to get between the HV and LV connections on the transformer, nasty.

25kV in the building wiring will cause a lot of damage, difficult and costly to repair, not a 5 minute job. RCDs etc. even if installed, would simply have been blasted into next week with no possibility of them doing their job.

Power is not going to be on any time soon.

Time to move, at least temporarily, until the situation is resolved. I would be worried that damage not visible to visual inspection would be left un-repaired as it's not causing a problem now, of course it could cause a serious problem in the future.

[Joe Bloggs]

There is not much information to go on here. Snake, fire and damaged electricals. I am familiar with British and North American wiring standards and I am also familiar with French wiring so I would say that the wiring of this block was extremely defective.

Having just said that, a couple of years ago I inspected a friends house that had been badly damaged by fire, Wiring went through a stud partition and mice had got in and made a nest. One can surmise that a mouse got bored and gnawed the wiring. The electrocuted mouse and its nest then started the fire.

Note that an Earth Leakage Trip also known as a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter in the US and Differential Interrupteur in France will not operate if the mouse or snake has connected itself between Live and Neutral (now renamed as Phase and Neutral) as these trips only operate when the currents in the go and return conductors are unequal.

British domestic wiring still uses the ubiquitous thirty amp ring main. The wiring is made into a loop so cable rated at 15 amps can give 30 amps as the cable is fed from both ends. The plugs contain the fuses and 3A, 5A, 7A, 10A and 13A fuses are available. The plugs are not as robust as the old 15A type however. (the old round pin 5A and 15A are still used in India and Hong Kong AFAIK and they are still used in the UK as Industrial plugs as they will handle the current needed by welding transformers)

French wiring regulations DO NOT ALLOW the British ring main system. In fact anyone who wires their French cottage with a ring main will be REFUSED connection to the public electricity supply. The French like radial wiring which basically means that every socket has its own wire and fuse or trip. The result is that truly enormous Consumer Units (old word "fuseboxes") are needed.

US wiring is similar to French but the nominal voltage is only 115 so thicker cables are needed when compared to 240 volt systems. For high power appliances they use two phases of a three phase supply which gives about 208 volts.

Note that when cables are run in vertical ducts it is a good idea to fit Heat Barriers. Without the barriers all the heat from the cables rises to the top of the duct and the cables can be damaged.

Proper fusing protects the cable but in some countries jobs are done badly. Suppose a building or part of a building needs 100 amps. All the loads that make up the 100A should be split by means of a 100A consumer unit. This will then result in numerous circuits, typically 5 amp circuits for lighting and 15 amp circuits for power and each circuit will have its own fuse or trip. A bodged job might allow the hundred amp circuit to feed everything. This will work OK but if a fault occurs a fire is extremely lightl

Fuses are very important items as without them the entire power of the National Grid might come to your house! LOL

I'm retired now but I've maintained high power transmitters that ran on 11,000 volts and I've also worked as a Machine Technician at what was Britain's largest factory. Really domestic wiring is just Mickey Mouse wiring but it still has to be done right. Where rodents are a problem steel conduit pipes ought to be considered. Another way is the use of Mineral Insulated Cable. These are costly but fires are more costly!

[jacko45k]

Almost any critter caused damage to electrical is very local. IE: it doesn't spread like a virus throughout the network. So, it seems there is either a "story" being told or a hopeful excuse to exit. (?)

I struggle to figure out how a snake could cause this internal damage too, beyond it somehow getting between the HV side and LV side of a transformer. This is not what should happen by it getting into an outside panel box. If the panel box was HV one can guess at a short to earth feeding into the building and the (bad) ground system becoming live. Very dodgy.......

We had a snake zapped on our area transformer and it just blew a single HV 'fuse'... we were left with reduced voltage or no voltage depending on which phase the house was connected to. My area, on the LV side , there is very little protection from the transformer to the houses, big fuses at the transformer are it....until you get to each home's incoming breaker. I had a fault outside at my meter on the pole and it just burned like an arc-welder until the short was burned away. Even that only required replacement of the meter and the heavy duty wires coming down from the overhead cables to it.

It sounds like the building may need rewiring ... big time consuming job. Plus new outlets etc. Any damage at lighting fixtures and switches?

I would look for somewhere else if I rented.

[Joe Bloggs]

The biggest issue with electrical wiring in Thailand

is that they forget to connect an EARTH wire,

perhaps why everything shorted and people get a

slight zap when they touch the washing machine.

Your situation is dangerous and won't be resolved.

MOVE OUT

I was asked to "look at" a similar problem in a bungalow that belonged to a penniless widow. The property had concrete floors and everything was seriously live. (By everything I mean water taps, the Rayburn cooker and anything metal that was supposed to be earthed) There was an extremely old VOLTAGE operated earth leakage trip (these are notorious for getting blown coils as a result of thunderstorms) As to the electrical leakage the immersion heater was suspect number one. The old lady did not want any earth rods fitting as these would be an eyesore and of course there was no money to sort things out properly.

The solution was to bond together the Neutral and the Protective Conductor (old name Earth) where the power entered the building. Result no more electric shocks! Decades later the modification is still working OK although the old lady passed away from old age some time ago.

The supply comes from an 11,000 volt pole mounted transformer that steps the voltage down to 240v. The electricity people usually earth the neutral.

Good luck!

[Ulic]

I have never heard a single positive thing about electricians here in Thailand on this forum. From the wealth of knowledge

here I can surmise nothing was done correctly to begin with and the fix will be difficult, take a long time, and will not be

done properly. (Australian/ European/ North American code) Move now before someone is electrocuted. It happens

all the time here in Thailand. Even in 4/5 star resorts built poorly but looking great.

[lucifer666]

There is no way that a snake, shorting a circuit could cause so much damage. Fuses are there to prevent and protect things like this from happening.

[technologybytes]

If the wring circuit was to short circuit then I can see that the wires would get very hot and eventually melt if there was no fuse protecting them, effectively the wires would become a electric heating element... but this can't simultaneously happen to every socket on 2 floors.

If equipment plugged in was damaged then that can only happen because of higher voltage, which is plausible if a snake shorted the substation outside the building, though even then it would be a very unlikely scenatio.

My question is this. when you say all the outlets are charred on the 1st and second floors, is that just what you have been told or have you seen it in more than one room ??

Earthing is very much misunderstood by foreigners in Thailand. I used to work as an Electronics Engineer and our workshops would almost always be isolated from earth for safety reasons. Earthing is not always a safety issue, and in Thailand the vast majority of appliance cables and extensions are only wired for 2 wires anyway.

[watgate]

First off thank you for all your informed responses. The consensus is that my thai g/f and her daughter should move asap. I did see firsthand the charred and blackened electrical outlets in the hallways on both the 1st and 2nd floors. Other then the extensive damage to the room next to my g/f on the 1st floor which I saw first hand and was completely charred and everything burnt, I haven't seen any other rooms. I understand another room on the 2nd floor was similarly destroyed by an electrical fire. I did see wifi outlets on both floors that were charred and blacked and also the walls in both hallways where evidently wires were run behind the walls blackened and charred. Outside you can see electrical outlets around the building that are charred and blackened and as I write this, there is still no power and no one working on repairing the extensive damage. This isn't a condo so I don't think there is a condo board where work has to be approved beforehand. I don't know if it is an insurance issue but I have told my thai g/f that the building is not safe to live in and it will be a long time before repairs are done to the electrical components. Even when done, I told her you have to question whether they will be done to code and done properly. As a sidenote, the building is very close to Pantip Plaza and if anyone in the Chaing Mai area who is knowledgeable about electricity and building wiring is interested in seeing firsthand the extensive damage, I will gladly buy them lunch or dinner for their time.

[Gentmartin]

First off thank you for all your informed responses. The consensus is that my thai g/f and her daughter should move asap. I did see firsthand the charred and blackened electrical outlets in the hallways on both the 1st and 2nd floors. Other then the extensive damage to the room next to my g/f on the 1st floor which I saw first hand and was completely charred and everything burnt, I haven't seen any other rooms. I understand another room on the 2nd floor was similarly destroyed by an electrical fire. I did see wifi outlets on both floors that were charred and blacked and also the walls in both hallways where evidently wires were run behind the walls blackened and charred. Outside you can see electrical outlets around the building that are charred and blackened and as I write this, there is still no power and no one working on repairing the extensive damage. This isn't a condo so I don't think there is a condo board where work has to be approved beforehand. I don't know if it is an insurance issue but I have told my thai g/f that the building is not safe to live in and it will be a long time before repairs are done to the electrical components. Even when done, I told her you have to question whether they will be done to code and done properly. As a sidenote, the building is very close to Pantip Plaza and if anyone in the Chaing Mai area who is knowledgeable about electricity and building wiring is interested in seeing firsthand the extensive damage, I will gladly buy them lunch or dinner for their time.

Thanks for the feedback. Its always nice to see polite posters replying after asking a question. Hope you get sorted soon. Good luck and best wishes to you, gf and little'un :-)

[watgate]

As an addendum to my previous reply I felt I should also mention that my gf took her tv, which had been plugged into the wall in her room when the short occurred but not turned on, to a neighbor and plugged it in and, lo and behold it worked. I don't know if this is relevant or not but I thought I should mention it because previous posters had mentioned about the possibility that tv or refrigerators might not be working now due to this electrical short. We still don't if the Refrigerator is working though. Finally, I tried to explain to my gf that a snake could not have caused such extensive damage to the wiring and electrical components in the building and it would appear that there are serious deficiencies with the electrical work in the building, thus the need to move asap.

[Crossy]

A snake could easily have cause the damage that appears to have occurred.

From the descriptions (sadly no photos) it was evidently a high-energy event that permeated throughout the building, possibly affecting one or two phases. This which would explain the survival of the technology in one apartment and the total destruction of another.

If the snake got between the HV and LV sides of the transformer as has been suggested, then 25kV (100 times more than the wiring is rated for) could have gotten where it shouldn't with disastrous results. Fuses, RCDs and surge arrestors would have stood no chance and would simply have welded closed or vaporised.

Snakes do conduct electricity quite well, we had one get between two phases of the 25kV overhead, there was a flash and a snake-shaped puff of smoke. Power was off for two hours.